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ERRs Have Arrived! (Read 21170 times)
Pale Rider
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ERRs Have Arrived!
07/19/11 at 20:20:33
 
Nine boxes of Decware goodness just showed up at my office: six boxes for the speakers, and three containing the pairs of the grille-tops, spikes and capacitors/resistors. In person, this group is bigger than they seemed in the abstract. Wink And yes, they appear packed for a shuttle launch. Bob's packaging appears designed to laugh at UPS!

Lon, or anyone else, what is the best way to empty the box? Is it safe to open it at the top, and then tip it over and slide the styrofoam case out?
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« Last Edit: 07/19/11 at 20:35:37 by Pale Rider »  

Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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Lon
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"Love without
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #1 - 07/19/11 at 21:04:49
 
Yes. They're very well cellu-wrapped inside the styrofoam containers.

I can imagine that's a little over-whelming!  But congrats.
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III, PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable IC: Evo and UL, Mapleshade:Double Heiix Samsonv2+v3 and 4"platforms,Herbie's IsoCups+Tendft
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Pale Rider
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #2 - 07/19/11 at 22:26:55
 
It's funny, but getting them out of the boxes helped a bit. Will post some pics soon.
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Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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Lon
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"Love without
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #3 - 07/20/11 at 00:19:22
 
Will you get them home in your stretch Hummer limo?  :)
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III, PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable IC: Evo and UL, Mapleshade:Double Heiix Samsonv2+v3 and 4"platforms,Herbie's IsoCups+Tendft
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Pale Rider
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #4 - 07/20/11 at 00:23:14
 
Ha. It will take a couple of trips I suspect. Here is what 6 ERRs wrapped in cellophane look like:

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« Last Edit: 07/20/11 at 00:47:10 by Pale Rider »  

Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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Lon
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"Love without
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worthless!"
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #5 - 07/20/11 at 01:00:10
 
You've got a nice office! Glad to see them there!
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III, PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable IC: Evo and UL, Mapleshade:Double Heiix Samsonv2+v3 and 4"platforms,Herbie's IsoCups+Tendft
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ZYGI
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #6 - 07/20/11 at 02:06:22
 
Pale Rider,

My cell number is on the labels....you could have called if you had any questions.

The wife and I were on the road today heading home....got bored with  driving so we stopped for the night.

It looks like they all arrived safely, thank goodness.

Can wait to get back the the house to listen to some tunes....

ZYGI
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All Decware amps and sources, Turning Point Audio speakers
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Pale Rider
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #7 - 07/20/11 at 02:10:20
 
Thanks Bob. No worries, but thanks for reminding me. They look great. Beautiful work. Amazing packing.
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Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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Juan Antonio
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #8 - 07/23/11 at 21:11:23
 
Congrats, Pale. Let them time to sound right. Don't judge them until a 300 aprox. hrs of break-in or so. I even thought I would have to return them back. Glad I didn't. Nevertheless, I find them a bit "shouty" and probably is due to my pair specifically. Bob and I are dealing with it.

Their effortless and charming presentation, very natural tonal balance, articulation and imaging are top notch in my opinion. Nicely detailed too. You are gonna love that.  ;)

But maybe you're gonna miss the more "direct sound" type of presentation sometimes though.

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« Last Edit: 07/23/11 at 21:12:42 by Juan Antonio »  
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Pale Rider
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #9 - 07/23/11 at 21:51:30
 
Juan:

No worries here. In fact, I just gave Bob my first listening impressions today with just two pairs installed. I don't perceive mine as shouty at all. First impression, running on my mid-fi home theater Denon:

1. Amazing soundstage and imagery. I have an irregular room, with very high ceilings, multiple level of windows, and plenty of both bright and dampened walls. The room is not a box, open on all sides into other rooms, stairwells and entry ways. Soundstage in all directions. Large chorale works are amazing.

2. Conversely, instrument separation, and stability, is rock solid. When the drum kit on Moonlight Acoustica first appears, it comes out of nowhere and stays right where it appears.

3. Transients are extremely quick, rapid decay un-smearing a lot of layers.

4. Bass is tight, but still a touch light. We'll see how that plays out. I unhooked my sub, and will live without it for a while. Bob and I are discussing a WO32, but I believe most music won't require it, though HT will require something.

5. Sound is still a bit thin, mostly I think due to the Denon. It can only get better, and even now, I have not experienced fatigue.

Can't wait to hook up the Toriis and Ultra.
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Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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Lon
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"Love without
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #10 - 07/23/11 at 22:58:39
 
Alright! Glad you got to hear a pair finally! They're just going to keep getting better and better. Give the bass a few more days to bloom, a week or more for the full-blown bass to be there. You're in for such a treat when you get the Ultra and the Torii in play!
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III, PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable IC: Evo and UL, Mapleshade:Double Heiix Samsonv2+v3 and 4"platforms,Herbie's IsoCups+Tendft
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mac5u
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #11 - 07/24/11 at 19:10:42
 
Hey Greg!

Woo -hoo!  Glad to hear your system is starting to come together.  The major pieces are in place; now it is time to begin the journey of getting it all to work together.  There is a word for that -- yeah, it's called synergy.  No doubt -- you will have that in spades with all the Decware gear you have on hand.  You are blazing trails for the rest of us.  We'll hold you to the highest standards -- pressure's on.  

Ok, maybe I am kidding.  Maybe.
Wink


The interesting thing, like Juan mentioned, it to give them time.  I know you wrote that you are happy with your first listen but I can't help but thinking, after being so accustomed to the soundstage and imaging on your headphone rig, that sometime won't seem quite "right" to begin with.  I remember Lon writing about his transition from the IT Radials with their more conventional front-firing driver.  

Take us on your journey, my friend.
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Pale Rider
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #12 - 07/24/11 at 19:46:57
 
Thanks M. No worries on either score. My positive reaction on first listening is solely a confirmation tha I am pleased with the first listen, zero buyer's remorse. I fully expect the speakers to change significantly, especially when the Toriis and Ultra are applied.
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Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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Juan Antonio
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #13 - 07/24/11 at 21:34:08
 
The most significant change for the next days and weeks is gonna be the bass as Lon mentioned. They are quite sensitive with placement too, a good placement is required. Rotate the speakers pointing a bit out of your ears so that the imaginary direction of the tweeters meet and cross around 4 feet back of your head or something like that depending on the distance and your room. So don't let the tweeters looking at you like a perfect triangle.

And of course as you know, don't place them very near the walls to prevent bloated bass and out of control. The soundstage/imaging is affected due to that as well.

Pale, if you think they sound nice right out of the box, well, the next few months you are gonna be insanely shocked.

Honestly, when I first listen to them they sounded horrible in my point of view.
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« Last Edit: 07/24/11 at 21:36:31 by Juan Antonio »  
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Pale Rider
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #14 - 07/25/11 at 16:34:20
 
JA: I tend to set a low expectation framework, especially when I am enthusiastic about a purchase. Sounds contradictory, I suppose. It's my own version of Ben Franklin's "I am a pessimist, so that I am often pleasantly surprised." I didn't expect the ERRs to blow me away, and so their relative smoothness and quickness were quite pleasant to hear. And while the imagery and sound staging are hyped a bit much on the web page, I was not prepared for just how good they are out of the box on mediocre equipment. Knowing they are going to bloom is a real reward. "Horrible"? I suppose, depending on one's reference point, that could be true, but not in my case. I have spent way more for a pair of speakers than I did for all three pairs of ERRs (and what I will likely spend on the WO32), and gotten less.
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Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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Lon
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #15 - 07/25/11 at 16:49:14
 
Great to hear Greg! Can't wait to read your further impressions of the system!
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III, PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable IC: Evo and UL, Mapleshade:Double Heiix Samsonv2+v3 and 4"platforms,Herbie's IsoCups+Tendft
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Pale Rider
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #16 - 07/25/11 at 17:17:21
 
You'll appreciate the humor here Lon: my Ultra and first Torii are ready to insert in the system, but I have no ICs! I have been running off HDMI here at home for long enough that all I have for ICs are a few junk Radio Shack cables, maybe an old Monster, and they all look like they have oxidized. I don't even want to let their "syphilitic white trash selves" near my Decware. So, I may have to break down and buy some cheap ICs to tide me over until my Decwares are built.
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Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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Lon
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"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 6785
Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #17 - 07/25/11 at 17:29:12
 
Greg, if interested I could send you a few pair as loaners,I have available a set of the the "pre-Silver Reference" Decware ics, a pair of TARA Labs Reference and a pair of Audioquest "Mamba II". . . Let me know. You can PM me if you'd like. I'd get them in the mail express this afternoon if you'd like.
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« Last Edit: 07/26/11 at 15:18:49 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III, PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable IC: Evo and UL, Mapleshade:Double Heiix Samsonv2+v3 and 4"platforms,Herbie's IsoCups+Tendft
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Pale Rider
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #18 - 07/25/11 at 17:33:29
 
Lon, you are a gentleman, and very generous, but no need. Thanks much, though; you proved again what a great little community we have here.
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Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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Lon
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"Love without
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worthless!"
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #19 - 07/25/11 at 19:19:05
 
Well those cables are just sitting idle, I wanted to make them available if you wished. Yes, we have a nice group here. We all value the Decware build and sound and we're music lovers!
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III, PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable IC: Evo and UL, Mapleshade:Double Heiix Samsonv2+v3 and 4"platforms,Herbie's IsoCups+Tendft
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Juan Antonio
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #20 - 07/26/11 at 15:14:54
 
Pale, I agree with you. I think it is hyped on the webpage, specially in terms of room treatment. These speakers need a really good sounding room like a conventional speaker to sound at their best. Nevertheless, they are quite easier to set up to sound right, specially in soundstage and stable imaging, that is absolute true and I agree with that.

You've intrigued me, Pale. Which were those expensive speakers you owned for much more? Just curiosity.   Smiley


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« Last Edit: 07/26/11 at 15:16:41 by Juan Antonio »  
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mac5u
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #21 - 07/28/11 at 00:44:41
 
Quote:
Pale, I agree with you. I think it is hyped on the webpage, specially in terms of room treatment. These speakers need a really good sounding room


From the website:  
Imagine not having to worry about exactly where you place the speakers.


And best of all the Decware Radials will do it in virtually ALL rooms, large or small, including yours and without additional room treatments!


So, how much hyperbole are we really talking about?  I am curious because Steve was really taken to task recently over at another web site about over-the-top narratives on his web site.

I was really beginning to zero in on the ERRs, partially because I can't treat my listening room too much and also because of claims that they worked pretty well near walls.  I can't have a speaker pulled too far out into the room -- maybe 18 - 24 inches.  


One thing unclear to me, Greg, is if you plan to listen to two-channel music or if this will be strictly (or mostly) HT and maybe multi-channel music?  

Juan  -- Is it harder to integrate multiple pairs of omni speakers rather than a single pair?

Have to admit, I am a little bummed by this recent info.
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Pale Rider
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #22 - 07/28/11 at 01:58:44
 
M, I want to be clear: I think the ERRs are everything they are hyped to be. Most things in life do not live up to their hype. Sex, well, let's be honest, sex lives up to its hype. And so do the ERRs, at least IMHO. I am absolutely thrilled with the speakers, and I haven't really put them in harness yet.

My wife, who has younger ears with no tinnitus, thinks they are stunning. While they are of course affected by the room and their placement in it, I find they have a huge sweet spot, and are less affected by such factors than other speakers I have heard.

Order a pair, you will fall in love. I only wish I had two separate rooms for HT and audio. If I did, I would have ordered 4 pairs of ERRs.

P.S. Juan, I have owned a number of more expensive speakers, including Acoustats, Ohms, Infinity, Martin Logans, Carver Amazing, Quads, and Jack Caldwell ribbons ( my faves until now).
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Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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Lon
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"Love without
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Philip K. D*ck

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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #23 - 07/28/11 at 03:28:32
 
Glad you're really enjoying the ERRs so far. I agree that they're top notch. I just have become addicted to the Radial sound and would keep buying Decware or Turning Point Audio designs if I have the choice.

Mine have been sounding better and better as the weeks go by. Amazing me even now when I should be used to them!
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III, PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable IC: Evo and UL, Mapleshade:Double Heiix Samsonv2+v3 and 4"platforms,Herbie's IsoCups+Tendft
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Juan Antonio
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #24 - 07/28/11 at 20:40:28
 
Mac5u, the hyperbole is a bit deserved, not totally, but well. You will need treatment for the bass and highs as any other boxy speaker to have very great sound, that is unavoidable. Are the ERR's better for the average room? I'd say yes, of course, in terms of soundstage/imaging only.

I don't have multiple set of omni's but It seems to be the best option and far easier to set up multiple speakers to create an ultimate HT though. It's what Pale has done. Just having a single pair I can perceive that these speakers must be extremely terrific in a surround theater set up (4.0 or 5.0). The location and 3D sound in a movie must be thrilling.

As Pale says, order a pair, don't worry. You have to know that the sound is very laid back. The sound is never coming to you, never in your face. It's all there and deep between the speakers, behind the speakers, rendered ambient sound coming from everywhere (sometimes even behind you). It's a bit rare at the beginning, you will understand easier the instrument placement if you close your eyes. No matter if you approach to the speakers very near, the sound is never in your face and claustrophobic.

They are warm and don't expect them to have tilted-up highs, just the opposite. The highs are flat and correct, but I think they could be a little more extended, I perceive them to be a bit rolled off in the very top end. I don't mean they can't go very very high, I just mean that some very high sounds need more dBs in that range. That is my own perception.

Pale, having owned those hi-end brands tells a lot about the high value of Decware. A very good feeling to say the least.

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« Last Edit: 07/28/11 at 20:44:55 by Juan Antonio »  
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Pale Rider
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #25 - 07/28/11 at 21:03:55
 
I think Juan hits it on the head here. As you can tell from some of my speaker choices, I am a big fan of planars. I love the transient response, and something about ribbons in particular really satisfies me. Now, at my age, I probably could not discern the extent of the rolloff. When I check my hearing, I can tell that I am rolling off at about 16-17k.

I have my ERRs set up so that unless you choose to move a chair and plop yourself right in front of the tweeter, the ribbons are all slightly off angle to all the major listening positions in the room. This probably contributes to a slight "softness" on some of the highs. I think I will get a better sense of just how much once the Ultra is plugged in, and I can switch back and forth between 2-channel and multi-channel. It is interesting to watch/listen to Blu-Ray discs like Moonlight Acoustica and Goldberg Acoustica. Those discs give you a choice between "stage" and "audience" listening positions. And it does make quite a difference. The visual cues provided by the disc inform me that the ERR soundstage rendition is very credible. Moving the speakers so the tweeters are more directionally focused at the listener does not cause shoutiness, or over-emphasis of treble, but it does seem to slightly affect instrument location, without increasing or decreasing "air."
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« Last Edit: 07/30/11 at 16:26:13 by Pale Rider »  

Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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mac5u
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #26 - 07/28/11 at 22:15:48
 
Thanks, JA.  I should have written above that I realize there isn't a single pair of speakers ever made that could not benefit from some form of room treatment.  For me, the issue has always been how much, and to that end, omnis -- Decware, Ohms, etc. have always appealed to me because I think I value imaging and soundstaging at least as much as I value rich mids and good bass.

I rarely listen for extended periods in any sweet spot so the diffuse-sounding nature of the omni is very desirable.  

JA -- what kind of music and listening levels are typical for you?  How do they sound at either low volumes or really high volumes?

So yes, I need to try a pair.  Ideally, I can have both Decware and Ohms concurrently to compare side-by-side.  The difficulty in that scenario is the power requirements for those two are significantly different.  While Ohms can probably be driven fairly well with tubes, they really deliver when feed high current, or so I have read.  So maybe it will come down to a choice of amplification?

PR, what version of Ohms did you own?  As always, I anticipate reading about how your multi-ERR/Zen Ultra story unfolds.
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Lon
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #27 - 07/28/11 at 22:20:46
 
mac, some tube amps put out lots of current. The Torii for example.. . Smiley

In my case I really find the ERRs sound very good at low volumes, which is very important to me.
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III, PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable IC: Evo and UL, Mapleshade:Double Heiix Samsonv2+v3 and 4"platforms,Herbie's IsoCups+Tendft
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Pale Rider
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #28 - 07/30/11 at 02:41:04
 
I had the F. Like Lon, I value low level quality, and I also like to crank them up. The ERRs are very nice either way.
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Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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Juan Antonio
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #29 - 07/30/11 at 13:59:08
 
Hi mac5u,

My taste in music is very wide except for mainstream popular music. Rock, blues, classical, jazz, symphony orchestra, ...

My typical listening levels are 80 dBs (the average) and also very satisfying low levels. You know, my hearing is really really good, both in wide range and dynamically. I even surpass above the maximum threshold of 0dB by 5dB at 4kHz (left ear) and 2kHz (right ear).

I think live music is not as good sometimes with these speakers. Because of the ERR's have a kind of "diffuse" sound, adding more reverb and stuff typically found in live records don't work as good as studio records. OF COURSE, this is due to the involved acoustics added of our room as well. To enjoy live recordings, a good treated room is, unfortunately, more important than playing studio recordings.

"I rarely listen for extended periods in any sweet spot so the diffuse-sounding nature of the omni is very desirable"

MMMmm, no. This speakers, at least in my opinion, must be listened in the sweet pot to enjoy the tweeter and then high frequencies. You must sit down to do that or at least bend the tweeters if you stand up (bending these tweeters are not practical and easy) . It's wide in the horizontal plane, but it's very limited in the vertical axis. Even in the horizontal axis it starts to roll-off when it is a little off-axis. (Pale mentioned it above). And because these tweeters produce the highest registers soft and quiet in my experience, most probably you would want quite more highs most of the time.

The restriction of the ribbon tweeter in the vertical plane is a good thing, most probably due to the need to avoid interaction between the tweeter and the radial membrane and the reflections in ceiling and floor.

I also think these speakers sound better at low level SPL. Hehe, well, that is most probably because of the handicap of room acoustics, amplifier, speaker distortion, auto-defense of our ears called stapedius reflex) and so on. The typical.

Excuse my english, specially in using preposition (in/on/at/of/for/by,...).

I just hate it!! Instead, in spanish we use "in" (translation: "en") as "in/on/at" for everything. It's the same meaning depending on the context. The use of "on" and "at" is killing me and drives my crazy.

Lon, I see you use the word "amigo" correctly. Sometimes I've seen people saying "mi amigo" (my friend). You know, we don't say "my friend" in conjunction. We say: ¡Hola, amigo!. Just that.  ;)

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« Last Edit: 07/30/11 at 14:04:59 by Juan Antonio »  
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #30 - 07/30/11 at 14:13:49
 
Juan,

Yes, my girlfriend is a wonderful latina of Mexican hertage (though not a native Spanish speaker, she does speak some Spanish) and one of my very best friends is of Mexican heritage, a wise young-old man who speaks Spanish fluently. I can toss off a few Spanish words and appellations correctly. . .but I can't speak Spanish. Maybe one day I'll learn. My girlfriend talks about learning more Spanish and my learning with her. If only she wouldn't spend 50 to 60 hours a week at work! It's hard to believe she retired once four years ago. . .but was asked to return to her job and stayed away only 30 days!

I love the different sounds of Spanish (depending on the speaker's place of origin). I studied French for years in Africa and when I returned to America, but haven't had a lot of speaking practice in decades, which is a shame, so much of the language has disappeared from my brain. It helps a bit with Spanish, but doesn't help in some instances (for example in French I've always heard "mon ami", not just "ami.") Anyway, I love cultural diversity. Learning other languages and customs and manners is very appealing to me.
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« Last Edit: 07/30/11 at 14:15:09 by Lon »  

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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #31 - 07/30/11 at 16:25:11
 
Juan, whose English seems better than most I run into for whom it is nominally their first language, is IMHO quite correct. While imaging is very apparent even while I move around the room, there are decided differences in the vertical plane as one moves.

Although I think the ERRs do well loud, both my younger daughters and I noticed that in 4.0 mode, they could easily get overpowering. That is a lot of sound. Some of that I suspect is the harshness of the Denon amp they are revealing. But all of us agreed for example, that the sound produced on the Dire Straits Brothers in Arms DVD-A was more desirable in 5.1 [but hearing 4.0] than 2.0. The immersion can be quite seductive. The title cut is simply amazing.

Today, i plan to listen to the DVD-A of Jackson Browne's Running on Empty. I love this disc, and the performances on it have some sentimental attachments. But it is also well recorded, and I plan to test Juan's view that live recordings don't sound as good with the radial approach. He may be right, though the classical chorale works I have listened to so far—Verdi's Requiem, Mozart's Requiem, and Beethoven's 9th—have been quite extraordinary.

With any luck, I may get the Torii and the Ultra into the front end of the system as well.
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #32 - 07/30/11 at 17:19:36
 
Greg, it may be the Denon but your ERRs are going to need about 300 hours total to begin to sound as treble-grain-free as they can be.

Still, yeah, at very high volumes I imagine in a quartet the ERRs could be very over-powering. Still, working with resistors you could get them pretty much just right.

I haven't found there to be a big difference between live and recorded material, though much of the live material I listen to is very simply recorded, a lot of unofficial recordings with just one or two microphones and little "production". . . that may be a factor.
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #33 - 07/30/11 at 18:09:12
 
Yes, I fully expect the sound to change for some time.

I think you make a good point regarding the classification of live recordings. The Cowboy Junkies' Trinity disc, for example, and the Tone Pearls Piano Music in a Church are elegantly simple recording processes.

But the discussion about the role of diffuse speaker sound in reproducing recordings that have already captured sound reverberation reminds me a bit of those tiresome Bose/anti-Bose debates. I have no dog in that hunt, but one recurrent theme was that very issue: why attempt to exaggerate soundstage through speaker reflections, when the soundstage was already in the material? Of course, some people like the Bose effect, and I am certainly not going to begrudge them (never understood the desire to diminish what another person likes, so long as it's not illegal or dangerous to children).

The radial approach is quite different from the reflective approach, of course. They are not even in the same category—though they share the similarity of what I might call "anti-beaminess"—but the notion that the radial approach might be less or "differently" effective on certain live recordings is an interesting one.
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #34 - 07/31/11 at 10:31:33
 
Lon,

I just want to warn you. Spanish is quite difficult, more than english. We have a lot of conjugation of the verbs. English is extremely easy on this. The past of a regular verb is just by adding "ed". The articles, the adjectives, the verbs, ... they include gender female or male, if it is singular or plural. We can omit speaking an article "She, he or the" in a sentence because the rest contain all the info of the gender and number and who we are talking about.

A very simple example of this magnitude is the article "the": we have "la/el/lo/los/las". It contains the gender and number of the following name. Contrary to english, things have gender too, not only persons. Like french or german. So if you learnt french while ago as I did (I did it at school for a few years) you know what I am talking about.

Now I am gonna see what I can do with german. I hope to learn a lot.

"I love the different sounds of Spanish (depending on the speaker's place of origin)"

hehe, the spanish of Spain is quite different sounding from the spanish of America. They have variants, written mistakes and weird words that almost destroy the original language we shared to them, depending on the place, of course. It sounds quite weird to us as well. We speak the real orthodox spanish (the original), which the margin of difference is quite higher than the difference between british english (the origin) and american english. Yes, british has a different accent and certain different words but to me it's quite similar overall compared to american. American english sounds more natural than british in my opinion. I hate trying to follow the very hardest british accents of a speech when the plosive sounds are exaggerated, very short vowels and very quick decays. On the contrary, the hardest american accent with very nasal sound is not as difficult to the ears.

Of course I know that american english has multiple of different accents, like in the UK, like in Spain and like in Latin America. For instance, scottish has a bit similar accent to the spanish of Spain.  

Apart from that, It's sad that people generalize so much with cultures and promote racism. For the color of the skin, eyes, facial features,...

I've a little knowledge that even there's the ignorance that "spanish" or hispanic means automatically "a bad amerindian guy with dark skin" or so. Because that is far from the truth. OK, generally Central America is well know to have conservative original amerindian genetics (darker skin and indian facial characteristics). There's way less genetic mix of Spain. Then, there is south (Argentina), white skinned, very occidental facial characteristics, very accentuated colonization mainly by Italy and Spain. Therefore, there's also blue/green eyed, blond/brown haired genetics. This is just an example in general.

My cousin and I, for example, are night and day. He is black haired, brown skinned, almost black eyed. I am blue/green eyed, dark/brown haired with a hint of blond, white skinned. When I was a very young child a little blond haired. It is simply that my father is completely blond and my mother changes in the hair to dark only. Past origin similitudes are identical (to my knowledge).
In general, we are like italians, there's blond genetics of central europeans, there's muslims genetics too, blah, blah, blah.

Anyway. The point is that it's so wrong to generalize and judge people by their skin. What matters is the person itself. I know a cuban guy (african genetics) that is much more educated and culturalized (geography, languages, history, ...) than many more people I'd like to count.

Grin Apart from that, I don't know why the hell you name it soccer instead of football. You know, american football is played mainly by using the hands to take the ball, contrary to "soccer", played by the feet literally in every sense of the word, that's football, man, not soccer. Rugby makes more sense than football, hehe.

Apart from that super offtopic:

My experience with live recordings have been that. It depends on the own room too. The ideal situation is just hearing the spacial info where the recording was recorded. Add your room acoustics and you just destroy it. Recordings are recorded differently so some live ones sounds just great. Others, like this famous one, Jazz at the Pawnshop, I find it weird and lacks coherency, for example:





As an example, the Mike Oldfield's Music of Spheres both Live and studio sounds great:






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« Last Edit: 07/31/11 at 10:44:01 by Juan Antonio »  
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #35 - 07/31/11 at 13:23:36
 
Juan,

Thanks for all that information.  Languages are fascinating. As I said I learned French first, in Africa, and then at the same time I learned a basic knowledge of Amharic, the official language in Ethiopia. When we moved to Swaziland I learned a bit of SiSwati, the language there, and also was force-fed Latin, as I was in an English-style boarding-school and everyone there had had Latin for several years and the school headmaster was my Latin teacher. I had no choice but to cover three years of Latin in one! I did well with it, but again much of it is gone as I did not use it afterwards at all. But it has helped me with other language problems.

I have heard different accents in Spanish and agree that there are some extreme differences. And I know about the cultural and genetic differences too. I've noticed among persons of Mexican descent here in Texas that sometimes there is discrimination among them of the darkest, most "Indian" of them, by the fairest of them, which is so sad, and so sad especially because there are those "Anglos" (thankfully few) who hate them all, whether fair and "Spanish" or darker. I grew up in the fifties and up to mid-sixties in inner city Philadelphia and saw racism between whites and blacks and hispanics and was appalled, because I was fortunate to be raised by very loving and kind people who felt we were all the same, and taught me that, and showed me that they believed that. Racism just makes me ill, as it is so against my nature.

Juan, your English is excellent! Thanks for sharing all this with me. If I can get around to learning Spanish it will be fun, in large part because i will be learning that with my beloved Anadina, my girlfriend, as well.

And one day perhaps I'll be able to add South America to the list of continents I've visited. So far I've lived in Africa (for nearly six years) and visited Europe. I'd love to go to Brazil because I have enjoyed and studied music from there for years, and met some interesting people from there,* and I'd love to go to Argentina because I have met some WONDERFUL people from there, and I'd love to go to Paraguay because my youngest uncle lived there a few years and told me the most marvelous stories, and to Chile, because my late wife spent months there (up to and including the revolutionary period in '73!) as a sort of "exchange" student and it was one of the most important periods of her life; she is the only girl child of her parents, and in Chile she stayed with a family with five daughters and she never forgot how it was to have sisters! Smiley

I'm not typing very well this morning so bare with me.

In regards to the live recordings:  I don't have any room treatment so that may be a reason why I don't feel that live recordings are particularly compromised. I've never heard the two recordings you have pictured there, so I can't comment on their sound. But I do find that there's plenty of room information on the live recordings that I listen to that seem to come through. They sound pretty natural to me. I love the ERRs. They've really reached into my mind and painted their sonic signature there. Almost any other speaker sounds boxed in and constrained in comparison after years wtih the Radial design.

* In regards to the Brazilians I've met, it's very funny one of them is the wife of a friend of mine. When he began dating her, he told me all about this wonderful exotic woman he was crazy about and I had this idea of this beautiful Brazilian woman that was all wrong! When I met her I discovered she was from a German town in Brazil and she was so fair and blonde-haired and blue-eyed and looked like the girl on the St. Pauli Girl beer bottles. Smiley I learned a lot about a different aspect of Brazil talking to her about her family and home town.
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« Last Edit: 07/31/11 at 13:29:05 by Lon »  

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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #36 - 08/04/11 at 15:55:20
 
Lon,

I'll respond later (maybe this weekend). Quite busy here.
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #37 - 08/05/11 at 18:10:50
 
I read all this with great interest! Congrats to Pale Rider and your ERR's, please update us when you can with some more pics of them if possible!

I own newer Ohm Walsh CLS driver OW3's with John's newest 3000 series drivers in them. I do love the omni/radial approach very much, so these threads on the ERR's are very good reads.

I find the look of these, especially the cabinetry to be extremely nice, fit and finish look to be of the highest quality. I would love to get a listen to these at some point.

A question that I have is along the lines of amplification. I have older Audio Research gear, none of it tubed at the moment, all solid-state. I am curious if any of you have played the ERR's on solid-state gear and what the general results have been. My gear comprises of CD2 CD player, LS3 preamp, D130 power amplifier, wiring by DH Labs or Audioquest.

My current listening room is actually my living room, which is fairly open and I have good choices as to speaker placement. Room is approx. 15' X 16.5', but is also open to an adjoining kitchen/dining area of 14' X 10'.

I listen to all types of music, jazz, pop, blues, a little classical, prog. rock. Listening levels vary, but not a head-banger!

I do enjoy my Ohm's very much, and realize they aren't the same as the "real-deal" Walsh driver on an A or F, but still they do a lot of things right. Would be interested in anyone's take or comparison of the ERR versus the Ohm's if there are any.

Thanks for your time, I have enjoyed the forum here. Enjoy the music, Tim
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« Last Edit: 08/05/11 at 18:14:24 by TimF »  
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #38 - 08/05/11 at 18:57:36
 
Tim:

Welcome aboard! Always nice to see another radial fan. I am afraid I won't be a good comparison point, because it has been a long time since I had my Ohms. But I do believe Steve and Bob are on to something with the ERR driver structure. Sound is very open and transparent. As you may have read here, I first listened to the ERRs through my Denon receiver, and was struck by how good they sounded. Yes, the Denon sounded flat, etched, but detail was well-presented, and soundstage was pretty good in 2 dimensions. In one sense, the ERRs are quite "forgiving," but as you put better stuff on them, they will show it. I had a brief listen on a 2-channel output from my Oppo into the first Torii directly, and it was quite extraordinary. My second Torii arrived yesterday, and my Zracks are on the way [I literally have no place to put this stuff safely]. Once I get the racks, and everything else set up, I will report back. The plasma comes off the cabinet this weekend, and on to the wall. That will mean I have credenza style cabinet to at least place the amps until the racks come in. Until then, I won't bother with center channel.

P.S. Fit & finish are superb. They are lovely. Bob's approach to shipping can only be described as "best practice."
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« Last Edit: 08/05/11 at 20:06:57 by Pale Rider »  

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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #39 - 08/05/11 at 20:14:58
 
Hi Tim,

Welcome to the forum.....
Here is a link to an email/review by a long time Ohm user, in case you didin't see it under the Decware Review heading.

http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1279652029

ZYGI
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« Last Edit: 08/05/11 at 20:15:51 by ZYGI »  

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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #40 - 08/05/11 at 22:01:17
 
Thanks for those that have replied, all interesting. From a construction point of view on the ERR's, is the bottom of the cabinet ported in between the plinth? What is in the cabinet-stuffing or is it open, just curious. These just look like another great design, and I am really going to have to take a listen to a pair at some point.

I do love my Ohm's too, the styling is also a thing that I like and the ERR cabinets look very good too. Just a very timeless styling in my opinion, beats the typical boxes.

Has anyone else used these with solid state gear? I sure wouldn't be opposed to going tube at some point, but the ERR's would more than likely come first if I did like them. I have enjoyed my ARC gear for a long time and really am in no hurry to change that part of the system. Will continue to read and watch this forum.

Thanks again for the welcome! Tim
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #41 - 08/06/11 at 03:49:23
 
Tim, Welcome.

I wanted to add to the great information that Pale Rider gave about the ERRs, and that I agree with, with just a bit of info about solid state amplification. I haven't yet tried this with the ERRs, but with my RL2s (an ERR predecessor) I sometimes ran a Proton 50 watt "Power Envelope" amp just to keep that amp "supple" over time. This isn't a great amp like an AR but not a bad one, pretty even tonal balance. They really light up the RL2s, quite an energetic and open sound. I bet the ERRs would work just fine.
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #42 - 08/06/11 at 04:24:48
 
Lon, your Proton brought back some very fond Proton and NAD memories. Well made, high value equipment. Considering the price range, they did very nice work with solid state. I was especially fond of my NAD FM tuner.

My 84ZS shipped today. I am closing in on bringing it all together.  I have been breaking the Ultra in with the same tubes Steve specifies, but with NOS ones that I bought specifically for it. In the "back row," that means NOS Sylvania 0A3 tubes, that glow a very nice soft orange. Just for fun, I lined up an 0A3, 0B3, 0C3, and 0D3.  Pretty slick. My daughters voted in favor of the fairly bright purple 0C3. Perhaps I will try out a full quad. I have some nice Raytheon JAN 0C3s.
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #43 - 08/06/11 at 12:59:29
 
WoW! You are so close! It's very exciting to think the first Decware surround system (talked about on the board at least) will soon be blooming!
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #44 - 08/07/11 at 20:47:28
 
Quote:
The plasma comes off the cabinet this weekend, and on to the wall.


PR, with the plasma going on the wall, what direction will the tweeters on the dual center speakers face:  Toward the wall or out into the room?  If the plasma is up high enough, facing the tweeters toward the wall should work well enough.  It will be interesting to see how this works out.
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #45 - 08/07/11 at 22:38:59
 
Bob built the center channels with the tweeters facing rearward. Going to try them that way first.
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #46 - 08/08/11 at 01:03:15
 
Well, today was the day. I got the plasma on the wall, and while my ZenStyx and ICs have not arrived yet, I went ahead and hooked the Ultra and the first Torii up to the Oppo. OMFG.

We (my two younger daughters and I) started out with Nina Simone's Feeling Good, followed by Thrice's The Artist in the Ambulance, Kate Bush's Running Up That Hill, and then Dire Straits' Brothers in Arms. At some point during Thrice, something opened up and the bottom fell out. Or in. Okay Bob, I surrender, on music, a subwoofer is superfluous. Even my daughters asked "what just happened?" This combo produces tight, well-defined, extremely fast bass. So, then it was time for the 1812, Verdi's Requiem, and Zeppelin's Stairway to Heaven off the How the West Was Won DVD-Audio. Just effin' wow. Have some hum to deal with when there is no signal, though it is unnoticeable during music.

Even more compelling is the depth. This must be what Steve means when he talks about holographic imaging. That and the detail. On The Man's Too Strong, you can hear Knopfler's fingers on the strings of his guitar quite distinct from the music. When it's so good your kids can tell it's better than what was playing before, you know you are on to something.
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« Last Edit: 08/08/11 at 01:07:53 by Pale Rider »  

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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #47 - 08/08/11 at 01:15:07
 
OMG, I knew this was going to happen. So happy to hear how great it sounds, and it's going to get better and better with cables, break-in, etc.
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #48 - 08/08/11 at 19:51:05
 
Solved my hum issues. My amp is dead quiet but, heh, my cheap sh!t zip speaker cord and the tangle of wires around them are not. Once the racks and cables are here, I expect to have even fewer problems and more grins.
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #49 - 08/09/11 at 01:16:48
 
That's really cool, PR.    [smiley=16.gif]

How many ERRs are talking about at this point?  Did you walk around the room?  How would you describe the image height?  What about midrange/treble response?  How far apart are the speakers?  Distance from the wall?

Sorry -- I mentioned I was going to live vicariously through your experience.
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #50 - 08/09/11 at 01:19:22
 
Just 4. The center ones are not hooked in yet.
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #51 - 08/09/11 at 01:28:42
 
Sorry, I was trying to edit my response to you and accidentally hit the submit button before I got beyond the number of speaker question.
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Reply #52 - 08/09/11 at 02:19:50
 
No worries, M. In answer to your questions, yes, I walk around a lot in the room. There is no question there is a difference in the soundstage when sitting versus standing up. The ribbons have a fairly wide horizontal dispersion, and a fairly narrow vertical one. So, there can be a significant difference standing up, especially in the perceived distance of the soundstage. But what is amazing is how instrument or voice location remains rock solid. It's almost eerie, to walk to the left side of the room, stand to the left of the left speaker, and still hear the right side of the soundstage over on the right side. In other words, the bass player is still "over there," right where he is supposed to be. I am still playing with the trim pots; I think the treble might be a bit hot, but it depends on volume and music. At low volume, bass is shy, so treble seems brighter. At regular volume, they just sound great.

My ERRs are about 8-10 inches from the wall, about 12 feet apart. It is worth noting that my wall is free-standing, and the speakers are at each end of it, and surrounded mostly by open space.  They are not in corners. Ceiling is high and angled, and the room is broken up by a number of different planes, and a variety of reflective and absorptive surfaces. I am working on both bass traps and diffraction panels as well.
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #53 - 08/09/11 at 13:54:51
 
Pale Rider, very cool, glad to hear how things are going. Some of your information here is good for me as well. My Ohm's also do the soundstaging nicely in regards to being off to one side or the other. I like not having to be locked into a tight listening/seating area and still be able to enjoy a good soundstage. Very good! I continue to read with interest. Tim
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #54 - 08/09/11 at 22:46:46
 
Not to hijack the thread, but for mac5u/Mike-yes I am the one that has talked with you over on the "Gon" about Ohm's. Sorry couldn't reply to your message, need I guess one more post, then I can!

Yes, I am still very intrigued by the ERR's and want to take the plunge here at some point, but kind of biding my time and learning. I have to say again, the construction/quality of these just going by looks is enough to make me want a pair, let alone the work and design put into them. I am sure they sound as good as they look.

One of these days!  Tim
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #55 - 08/10/11 at 00:56:58
 
Tim,

Welcome to the forum!  You could always make the trip this fall to Decfest at Steve's place.

Mac5u/Mike, are you still planning on making the trip to Decfest as well?

ZYGI
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #56 - 08/10/11 at 11:48:43
 
Thanks for the welcome here. Zygi, I have thought about coming over to the Decfest, it sounds like a great time. It is all going to come down to timing as my job has a lot going on during that month and it might be hard to squeeze in. But I am going to try and see what I can do there! Tim
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #57 - 08/10/11 at 22:39:34
 
Hi ZYGI,

First of all, I have been remiss in not posting about my visit to your place.  I had meant to do that after returning from my buisness trip to Orlando but one thing then another...anyway, I still plan to do a post about my trip but the details will be a little thin as my memory has faded a bit on everything we listened to that day.

I had planned on attending both Decfest and RMAF but now may only be able to attend one.  I'll make a decision soon.
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #58 - 08/10/11 at 22:46:09
 
Tim,

Cool that you found Decware. Since you have owned a couple different types of Ohms, I hope you get the chance to compare the ERRs.  Someone here posted he thought the ERRs would be most comparable to the 3000 series which is what you have.  If so, that would surprise me...and really say something about the ERRs.
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #59 - 08/11/11 at 00:03:59
 
I am still hoping to make it to DecFest this year, though work is doing its best/worst to interfere.

For now, I am just loving listening to the ERRs. Right now, I have R-men's I thought about you spinning. It's a 24/192 disc that is simply superb. The bass and brushes-on-snare contrast is amazing. Piano is lock solid. Just beautiful.
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #60 - 08/11/11 at 11:23:44
 
mac5u, I have kind of watched the radial speaker evolve over time, have kept a keen interest in Decware for quite awhile, just more of a "lurker" in the background over the years. Always kind of kept an eye on things though. This version-the ERR though just looks to be the one that has really peaked my interest though.

It has more of a cabinet volume maybe more closely resembling the Walsh 2, but overall height to my 3/3000's. The main radial driver is more closer to the 3/3000 though, and the ERR's ribbon tweeter makes it more interesting to me yet.

I have been playing with the Ohm's in a more "omni" mode lately, one of my pairs of MWT's is an omni configuration by John at Ohm, and it is very interesting, soundstaging and the like. I have a couple more things I am trying with the Ohm-especially the 3000 in a true omni can, but at some point, I do believe I will give the ERR a whirl. Would make for an interesting comparison.

I know this is the Decware forum, and I sure do not mean to drag Ohm into all this, but I find the comparisons too compelling and interesting. I hope you all will bare with me as I watch this forum for the ERR's.

Pale, glad they seem to be doing the business for you so far. Keep the comments coming! Enjoy the tunes!
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #61 - 08/11/11 at 14:06:34
 
Tim, as a former Ohm owner myself, I enjoy the perspective you bring, and under the forum charter, it certainly seems appropos.
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #62 - 08/12/11 at 11:26:22
 
Thanks Pale, may I ask what Ohm's you have had/listened to, and what differences-or even similarities that you hear with the ERR's from that of the Ohm? I know that might be a difficult thing to explain perhaps, just looking at anyone's input that have maybe had the chance to compare the two, or have any thoughts on the them.

I have had considerable time spent with my Ohm's, my 3/3000 uses the more conventional CLS driver/tweeter configuration, and a pair of the Micro-Walsh Talls in an omni configuration, tweeter firing towards the ceiling. The MWT was bought mainly for the intention of using it as surrounds in an "Ohm Theater" system, using my 3/3000's as front L/R and getting an Ohm center at some point. What I wasn't expecting was the interesting characteristics of just listening to the MWT/omni as the L/R in just 2-channel. Wasn't what I was expecting at all, and in  some ways more interesting and natural than the standard 3/3000 configuration, just less bass/midrange fullness due to cabinet/driver size, but very fun to listen to.

I do totally understand Steve's stance on the omni-directional upper frequencies and wanting to maintain a more typical directional firing arrangement. With the Ohm's, there are some trade-offs between the two arrangements, just not sure which I like best, find that I bounce between the two when listening to just 2-channel mode.

I had hoped to be able to possibly put my order in for a pair of ERR's so that I could do some side-by-side comparisons, but due to some medical/health issues that will be put off probably until early next year. I am hoping the ERR's stay in production for awhile, I sure do not want to miss out on giving them a good listen in my room with my own gear. We will see!

I am enjoying this forum, and the main thing that I see here is that folks are just having fun and enjoying their systems, and their music. And that is really what it is all about! Tim
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #63 - 08/12/11 at 13:39:02
 
Tim,

 I see no problem comparing Ohms here either, there are probably a lot of people wanting to know the comparisons, so really its a good thing.  I've heard a lot of Ohms in the past. There was a company I used to buy all my speaker parts from in Phoenix, and they seemed to get a lot of Ohms in for repair. I have now idea of which models I was listening to at the time, it didn't really matter I guess, it was kind of the bar for what had to be better. Some Ohms do some things better than the ERR's but overall I think the ERR's as a whole do everything just right.

If you do come to Decfest, feel free to bring your Ohms with you, Doug that wrote his review on the ERR's had done this a couple of years before buying the ERR's. Not a problem at all, I hope you can make it!

I see no reason the ERR's will go anywhere, anytime soon. The radials/omni's have been a passion of mine for a long time.

PaleRider,

I do hope you make it out to Decfest this year, it would be great to meet you in person.

Mac5u,

In a way, I'm glad you memory might be a little thin on what you heard. Like Murphy's law goes. everything you listened to with the Torii-MKI was pretty bad. In fact this took me on a long spiral of trying to figure out WTF!  The tubes were on there last legs, with that said they didn't show itself in the normal way, it turned out to be very midrange heavy. Not sure why this happened or what it actually was but it had me running in circles for a month at least. Then when you listened to the desk top speakers (Trapeziums) at my desk, the amp was in mono, only playing the left channel through both speakers. I sat at the desk later that day, when I realized what you had just listened to, I was so embarrassed. Just perfect.

I remember Steve telling me of a time at his old shop, in the early days of the RL-series radials, he had a customer come by for a listen, and when the guy left, Steve realized that one of the Radial drivers weren't even playing. Just goes to show you it can happen to anyone, at any time. Usually at the worst possible time.

ZYGI
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #64 - 08/12/11 at 15:36:42
 
Tim, long time ago, I had a pair of Fs. Liked them very much, and often longed for their broad sweet spot when I was later building tall ribbon systems.

Hope your medical/health issues work out the best possible way. We've discovered a fair bit of that in common with several of us here. Good luck.

Bob, I really hope I can make it to DecFest. Not only would it be fun to see all the goings-on at the mother ship, but it would be great to meet everyone in person.
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #65 - 08/12/11 at 15:45:27
 
Ohm F's, very nice I am sure! I have never heard the F's unfortunately, and maybe it is a good thing! What I hear from folks that have, say the newer Ohm CLS drivers don't hold a candle to the F's when they are working properly. Maybe so, but I do feel the newer drivers are a more commercialized and rugged driver than the real Walsh driver. Shame Lincoln Walsh wasn't around to hear his design with the F and maybe even develop it further.

I have become very pleased with the omni/radial sound for sure, and even though I love the pair of Magnepan MMG's I have, I don't think I could part ways with any of the radial designs. They just seem to sound more natural and real to my ears, and a lot less picky about placement and listening position. More real-world speakers to me! Tim
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #66 - 08/12/11 at 16:40:50
 
I enjoyed the heck out of my old Maggies. I ended up selling them to a neighbor long ago. Maggies and Quads hooked me on the broad planar category.

The Fs were special, but there was a constant tinkering with the speaker to "get it right." it's been too long for any valid comparison, but the unique design of the ERR sounds more natural to me, keeping the benefits of the radial approach, and resolving some of the shortcomings of the Ohm. I still think the Ohm was better than almost anything else I heard at the time, but I do think it had problems with its upper mids and highs in terms of accuracy and detail, and smearing of the otherwise excellent soundstage. Of course, that was a long time ago, and for that speaker to be as good as it was, was quite impressive.

Of course, here and now, having invested in the ERRs, I am "motivated" to like them as much as my ears permit. And I like them a lot.
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #67 - 08/12/11 at 17:15:57
 
Someday I hope to hear a properly restored pair of F's. One of my friends in Virginia has a pair, so maybe some day. I do think that for the day in which they were designed and made, it is somewhat a miracle they worked and worked as well as they did.

I do think the newer Ohm's are very good though, and not to take anything away from what John S. at Ohm does do with what he has now. They do that thing for me, but am always looking or listening for other designs. I don't make changes to my system often, very rare, but the ERR's might have to be an exception at some point.

I can imagine with the ERR's, there wouldn't be much to not like. But  do think radials/omni's certainly aren't everyone's cup of tea for sure, but they seem to be for me!
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #68 - 08/12/11 at 21:59:18
 
Tim, I agree that the Walsh driver was a remarkable achievement. I wouldn't mind hearing a well-restored set of Fs myself. And I think you are right that the radial sound is in many respects a matter of personal taste. Electrostats can be that way, too. I am really very pleased with the ERRs; zero second thoughts. I expect this weekend to get the center channel set up, now that the ZRACKS and SE84ZS are here. Should be interesting.
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #69 - 08/13/11 at 12:01:13
 
Lon,

Very interesting your anecdotes and great experiences. I enjoyed reading it. So far you are an entertaining guy Wink

"Juan, your English is excellent!"

He,he, I try to do my best. Sometimes is a compromise between time spent vs perfected typing and I've to choose in a balance way.

"In regards to the live recordings:  I don't have any room treatment so that may be a reason why I don't feel that live recordings are particularly compromised."

No, Lon, just the opposite. As an example, live records sound specially good on headphones. I encourage you to have at least a pair, for instance, the Hifiman HE6 hooked up to the Torri Mk3's binding posts (cos these headphones require speaker amps to bring the best out of them). Or an AKG K1000 earspeakers.

Apart from that, I noticed you purchased a PS combo recently. I have been interested in the PSA DAC + bridge as a music server while ago as well. It's a future acquisition for sure for my part. Very few companies sell something like these type of sources (Linn, Naim for instance). Control your entire music library with an iPhone or iPod touch is very rewarding and convenient. No external digital connections to deal with jitter and expensive cables. Just an NAS storage with lossless, perfectly ripped CD's and HD files. Inverted phase, native mode (non oversampling), etc.. So great.

Greg,

The AKG K1000 are here. They are simply a must have. Physical impact very similar to speakers, very dynamic and musical, amazing soundstage very similar like very near field monitors, ... I like them so much.   Grin
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« Last Edit: 08/13/11 at 14:14:03 by Juan Antonio »  
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #70 - 08/13/11 at 13:14:31
 
Juan, thanks. I've been blessed with an interesting life, with sharp highs and deep lows, and I think I've learned from my experiences.

I do have headphones. I spent about three years playing in and recording bands and I just tired completely of headphones. I have a pair around, but I don't use them, the headphone experience is not how I want to experience music.

The PS Audio Combo is working very well for me (I don't have The Bridge, I'm not at this time interested in computer audio, don't own an iPhone or iPad, etc--I'm moving away from computer devices actually.) But the jitter free performance from discs is intoxicatingly good.
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #71 - 08/13/11 at 18:20:48
 
Lon's comments about headphones are interesting. If I had to "work" in them, I suspect they could become quite tiring. And now that I have my ERRs, I am obviously not listening to headphones all the time. But headphone are what got me back into hi-fi, and while the enclosed headphone experience is, in its own way, unnatural, it can be very rewarding. Case in point: binaural recordings. When I had my first pair of Sennheiser HD414 headphones as a kid, I also had a binaural album Sennheiser had produced to show off the (at the time somewhat unusual) open air design of the headphones. And it was impressive.

Today, there are some very good binaural recordings out there that can only sound good on good headphones. Here is one a friend recommended to me just this week, and it is indeed impressive: Ottmar Liebert's Up Close.

I am also a confirmed computer audio guy. And as a PS Audio fan, I am very tempted by the Perfect Wave combo Lon has (hey Lon, I know you know it's really a computer, too Wink ), but it's still both more and less than what I want. I am not seeking the perfect disc player, because I do believe discs are a dead-end.  As physical media, discs will fall, as all things can, but so can any storage mechanism. Still, as digital resolution and fidelity improve, and vendors find more immersive ways to enjoy album art and liner notes (holographically projected album art, anyone? No?), and as bandwidth delivery systems continue to widen, environmental and financial pressures will drive to non-physical delivery of audio and video. (The Sonore is getting closer to what I am thinking about as the next step up from the mini and external RAID that now houses most of my music. But it's not quite there yet, and it's really a bridge between old and new; one day, Cortez will burn all the ships.)

I love the Blu-Ray experience, and the Oppo is both a very fine video and audio device. But it's a disc-based delivery, and in the end, what counts is what is on the screen and coming out of the speakers, not the disc itself. Any data file delivery of sufficient fidelity will do the trick. Apple is already heading down the path of disc-less delivery. They accomplished their most recent system upgrade without discs, their top selling laptop has no optical drive, and neither does their new mini. Hard drive makers are getting killed by the combo of flash and SSD. We've gone from revolutionary floppy drives to disc-less environments in about 30 years. With 32/384 A/V files on the horizon, optical discs are all but dead. We know something even better than Blu-Ray will be developed, but I am betting that something won't be a disc. And it won't take another thirty years.

I know a lot of my audiophile friends revel in the vinyl experience, including the tactile and audio-visual relationship between disc and album art, etc. I don't begrudge them that at all, but I don't actually miss all my LP albums. I enjoy album art, but my iPad is fine for those purposes. And I suspect the vinyl vector will remain with us for some time. But it will eventually join wax cylinders. I believe vinyl has survived in part because it has taken relatively long for digital to reach mere adequacy, with many false promises and detours along the way. But digital is still younger than vinyl already was when I was born. Analog technology development simply cannot keep pace with Moore's Law and all the benefits that theorem implies. What the Sonore or Auraliti do for reasonable prices now, will be bettered by devices costing half as much in three years. And of course, there will be just as much, if not more, junk than ever. But the cream of the crop will continue to be amazing.

Someone here, or maybe on the Hoffman forum, commented on just how far we have yet to go in reproducing live music in our homes. So true. What we settle for now is a facsimile experience. Even small-scale stuff, like solo vocals or small group chamber music, is still radically different live than recorded and heard at home. We are getting closer all the time, but we have far to go. Long term, only one storage paradigm can hold the amount of information necessary to replicate or approximate live music. And it's not analog. The vinyl groove cannot be made infinitely long, nor can the cartridge needle be infinitely small. Whether it is the reproduction end or the recording end of the process, we will always be testing the limits of a physical, "meat" universe.

Recorded music is much like mapping. The only perfect analog map is a full-size replication of the terrain being mapped. However, digitally, we can store and recreate the actual terrain down to the most minute detail (already happening courtesy of the redoubtable, perhaps evil, Google Street View)—subject now only to storage space and the resolving power of the recording instrument and the viewing device. My iPad doesn't feel the same as a nice map, but it is way more accurate, with a nearly infinite capacity for improvement. Sounds familiar.

P.S. Sorry for the rant. Back to my valves.
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #72 - 08/13/11 at 18:33:54
 
Yeah, the PerfectWave combo could be considered a computer. But it allows me to use my discs. (And they sound as they never have before on a CDP or with a computer to DAC set up in my home. And I can control volume and source switching with its remote, which I could not do before)  I have so many discs, it doesn't bother me to use discs, I prefer to continue using discs. I don't like using my iPod and I refuse to own a smart phone. And with the PerfectWave duo I don't have to connect up to the internet. More and more I think centering your life around the internet is a mistake. The internet has been a part of ruining our economy, shifting the way business is done, it's cost a lot of jobs.

I had one external drive, lasted me six months and failed. Used it when I was living in both Austin and Houston because of my late wife's illness. Music off the computer was neither more convenient nor sounded better to me. So I'm not going there for the heart of my system nor do I have to. Cds and DVDs and Blu-Rays will last me the rest of my life.

I've read good things about The Bridge that is available with the the PerfectWave DAC. Might be a good thing to look into as opposed to the Sonos.
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« Last Edit: 08/13/11 at 18:38:36 by Lon »  

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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #73 - 08/13/11 at 19:39:16
 
Quote:
I expect this weekend to get the center channel set up, now that the ZRACKS and SE84ZS are here.


Greg, this is going to be an interesting ride you take us on, Greg.  Like Tim, it will be interesting to hear your thoughts on the ERRs and OHMs although it is quite unfair to anyone or any piece of equipment to rely on audio memory.  Still, looking forward to how this all comes together, especially with the center channel speakers inserted into the mix.

Quote:
In a way, I'm glad you memory might be a little thin on what you heard. Like Murphy's law goes. everything you listened to with the Torii-MKI was pretty bad.


ZYGI, you know, even though your equipment wasn't working as it should have been the day that I was there, it still sounded pretty good to me.  OK, I wasn't completely blown away but after leaving your place, I figured it was just the first time hearing the older Torii and it was my first experience with the both the ERRs and the Turning Point speakers so I figured I would just need to hear them again and temper my expectations.  That afternoon by no means dissuaded me from looking further into them.

What struck me then, and still to this day, is how you could take a room of modest size and make it into a very comfortable listening room with very good acoustics.  Your room treatments probably took what you considered a sub-par listening experience and made for me a very enjoyable one.  I can only imagine how the music must sound now!

Quote:
Still, as digital resolution and fidelity improve, and vendors find more immersive ways to enjoy album art and liner notes (holographically projected album art, anyone? No?), and as bandwidth delivery systems continue to widen, environmental and financial pressures will drive to non-physical delivery of audio and video.


Greg,  I am with you that music and movies delivered via disc will, in the not-to-distant future, be [almost] a thing of the past.  There will always be those who are comfortable with disc players but I think it will be more difficult to find that content delivered that way.  I still have a Super-VHS camcorder that works just fine, but finding tapes for it is difficult and digital camcorders make it virtually obsolete.

However, like Lon, I am not eager to embrace the world of computer audio.  I know I should just get over it and get on with it but the thought of doing so is a little discouraging.  The middle ground for me might be something like the Olive products, although going that route has its own limitations and, at the end of the day, it is not [yet] a priority for me.
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« Last Edit: 08/13/11 at 19:49:06 by mac5u »  
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #74 - 08/13/11 at 20:00:03
 
Oh, yeah, one other thing PR, not that you don't have enough to do with getting everything set in place, hooked up, and dialed in, but you of course understand that there is a morally, ethic'ly, spiritually, physically, positively, absolutely, undeniably and reliably obligation to give us a new set of.....

PICS!
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« Last Edit: 08/13/11 at 20:19:46 by mac5u »  
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #75 - 08/13/11 at 20:07:46
 
Lon, agreed on all counts. I like the idea of the Perfect Wave's source control capabilities, though I have the Oppo's volume control,, and its DAC section is very, very good. Less resolving than my modded PSA DAC with the Audiophileo, but musical. So, once I have the Ultra set up, the Oppo lets me play couch potato well. Devices like the PW, the Sonore, the Auraliti, the Oppo will keep converging and expanding our options. I actually think the PW DAC & Bridge are on my "next possible" list, because they should be much more effective ST serving my music from the NAS into the Ultra. The Oppo is good, but the PW combo should be great.

And yes, hard drives fail, and so do SSDs, but less so. That's why I have two separate RAIDs and cloud backup. We will benefit from increasingly fail-safe storage. In reality, the PW is doing that for you transactionally already. It is converting optical disc storage (that can also fail and be easily damaged, like LPs) to information on the fly and buffering it. Eventually, we will have truly fail-safe storage and fully integral data delivery. As long as I can pass that information through my valves, I will be happy.
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« Last Edit: 08/13/11 at 20:23:05 by Pale Rider »  

Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #76 - 08/13/11 at 20:25:11
 
Yes! More pics please! Enjoying his thread very much!
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #77 - 08/13/11 at 20:25:13
 
Heh, Michael, pics will definitely be provided. Grin
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Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #78 - 08/13/11 at 21:42:25
 
The PerfectWave Transport is only storing about fifteen seconds of memory/buffer. . . and hopefully it won't fail, or will do so under warranty!

I have hundreds of DVDs and Blu-Rays and I have thousands and thousands of cds. . . . If I never bought another, I'm really set for life, and I feel the PerfectWave combo is something that does them justice and will continue for a long while. I feel  . . "set."

I can't wait for your system to be all up, broken in and blowing you away!
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III, PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable IC: Evo and UL, Mapleshade:Double Heiix Samsonv2+v3 and 4"platforms,Herbie's IsoCups+Tendft
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #79 - 08/14/11 at 01:51:21
 
Yeah, I know it buffers only a few seconds, but that paradigm of "separate the read and interpret functions" is probably just the beginning of far more robust buffering. I was speaking abstractly.

I have everything in place, with the exception of one center channel speaker and the still unfinished ZenStyx. I am only using one center speaker for now. But the racks are set up with the full complement of all the amps, and the mid-fi system, along with the Comcast PVR, Apple TV, Wii, and related stuff and the two PS Audio Power Plants. A little bit of cable management, and it will be well set. Small funny diversion: when I powered everything up, my SE84ZS did not want to start up. Checked the Power Plant sockets, checked the DRS cord, and finally checked the hideaway fuses, and voilà, no fuses! Not sure how she passed bench testing, but it was a quick and amusing fix. As it is right now, it is a delight. And I think I can make room for that PW DAC/Bridge. Wink
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Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #80 - 08/14/11 at 03:12:15
 
Wow, no fuses! That's indeed something I wouldn't expect!
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III, PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable IC: Evo and UL, Mapleshade:Double Heiix Samsonv2+v3 and 4"platforms,Herbie's IsoCups+Tendft
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #81 - 08/14/11 at 16:46:00
 
This will be the first of several pics. Obviously, I have some finishing to do here, what with cable management and the second ERR in the center to get done (though 3 across the font looks cool):


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Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #82 - 08/14/11 at 16:50:12
 
Wow, looking cool!
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III, PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable IC: Evo and UL, Mapleshade:Double Heiix Samsonv2+v3 and 4"platforms,Herbie's IsoCups+Tendft
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #83 - 08/15/11 at 12:30:47
 
Is it kind of weird photo effect or I'm seeing fatter ERR's on the sides?  

Huh

PD: I think I didn't tell it before, the ERR's sound better with the grills off, and I don't like that so much...
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« Last Edit: 08/15/11 at 12:34:50 by Juan Antonio »  
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #84 - 08/15/11 at 17:26:32
 
Hey Juan, I think that is mostly wde angle distortion. I saw it, too, but it is also apparent in person. Sitting on the couch, the middle one looks thinner. So, I measured it. Same size. I finally figured out the real culprit contributing to the illusion: it's the Herbie's glider! By elevating the bottom of the speaker by about a half inch, and because of the slope of the sides, it makes the speakers on the side—that already hae the gliders insalled—look bigger. In a volumetric sense, they are.

Anyway, I am closing in on HT nirvana. My wife and 15yo daughter alike spontaneously observed how much better the all-tube HT rendition sounds, especially in the bass and midrange.

I still have the Denon hooked up, for cable, Wii, and Apple TV play. I am looking at 5.1 switching devices, that will permit me to route a collection of HD video devices through one switch, that can route the stereo/5.1 to the Ultra, while routing the video to a single input on the Panasonic screen. If any of y'all know any devices I should look at here, please chime in. I have looked at a variety of Phillips, Monoprice, Niles, and  Atlona devices. Lon, although the PW DAC costs orders of magnitude more than those other devices, it looks like it could fulfill what I am looking for, though its audio output only appears to be 2-channel; Lon, any thoughts?

BTW, that Panasonic Plasma on the wall is my 2006 52-inch screen. It is a very nice display, and is about 5+ years old. Tme for a refresh. It is being replaced by a new 65-inch Panasonic GT30 this Thursday.  Much bigger screen display area, and much better blacks, 3D of course, that I don't much care about (yet), amazingly thinner and slightly lighter. I looked at the VT and just did not see enough ROI on the extra $1000 for the VT, while the GT had most of the VT features (like THX) that the ST lacks. The old one will go in the downstairs den, and I can put the Wii there. So, my challenge with the Ultra- based system is how to get the Apple TV and Comcast PVR into the Ultra. Since both units also generate HD video and multichannel sound, I really don't want to lose the benefits of my Decware system on those entertainment inputs.
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« Last Edit: 08/15/11 at 18:39:33 by Pale Rider »  

Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #85 - 08/15/11 at 22:18:57
 
Greg, the PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC IS only two channel output, so not sure that will help. I think you need what I think they call an "AV Processor" and I confess I know nothing about those, my whole experience with video playback is just two channel. I've never had a 5.1 or 7.1 set up. I guess your Oppo doesn't have an input?
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« Last Edit: 08/15/11 at 22:29:23 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III, PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable IC: Evo and UL, Mapleshade:Double Heiix Samsonv2+v3 and 4"platforms,Herbie's IsoCups+Tendft
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #86 - 08/16/11 at 00:39:01
 
Lon, after I took a closer look at the PW DAC, I realized it would not solve this particular problem. But I believe I found what will and what's great about this solution is that it allows the home theater to be all tube all the time. Am out and about but will post links to what I settled on later. No, the Oppo is close to, and could probably become a full front end, but my guess is that the market demand for such is not high.
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Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #87 - 08/16/11 at 11:47:34
 
Hey sounds like a good solution on the horizon. I'm about to head out on a motorcycle ride to my brother's wedding in Ohio and back, so I won't be online much.
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III, PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable IC: Evo and UL, Mapleshade:Double Heiix Samsonv2+v3 and 4"platforms,Herbie's IsoCups+Tendft
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #88 - 08/16/11 at 14:45:01
 
Safe ride Lon! Be well and have fun.
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Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #89 - 08/16/11 at 15:45:31
 
Here are the two items I bought to enable full use of the Ultra as a preamp front end for my HT system. Note that these would NOT be necessary if you use the Ultra only as a front end for an HT and one or two other 2-channel sources. (Steve, if you found some other way to solve this, please let me know.) But I have two other sources (HD cable and Apple TV) that have 5.1audio worth putting through the Decware system. Yes, I could run their HDMI outputs straight into the Panasonic flat panel, but the sound coming out of flat panels generally, and the Pannys specifically, is so atrocious, and it seems quite a waste to have this sort of audio system and not get the full benefit of it.

Note also that, if any one of your sources, be it the DVD, Blu-Ray, or something else, also has control center input capabilities, you might not need this adaptation. I bought two items from HDTV Supply:

1. A 2x1 5.1 channel switcher. A 3.1 would have been more convenient, but it's not mandatory. Depending on physical layout and cabling, This will permit me to have two 5.1 sources running into the Ultra. When and if I decide to add a third, I will get one more of these. Biggest downside of these: no IR remote control. I have looked all over for one with IR, asked the vendors, etc. No luck.

2. A 4x2 HDMI-7.2 matrix switcher. This is what lets me separate the 5.1 audio channels from the HDMI supplied by the Cable and the ATV. Note that it is possible that this unit will be all I need. The folks on the phone and email—who were all great, BTW; HDTV definitely has my business for the future—sent me the user manual, and walked through it with me. We think it might be possible to plug the Blu-Ray audio out into the 4x2, along with the HDMI from the cable and the ATV. If that works, I am set, an I have remote control.

Granted, this won't be quite as automatic as the current Denon system, because everything there is remote controllable. It's pretty cool to touch one rectangle on the Harmony remote control screen, and everything turns on and is ready ro go. But quality has its price, eh?

Let me know if you have any questions. (NOTE: cross-posted in Ultra forum as well. Hope that's okay.)
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« Last Edit: 08/16/11 at 15:53:19 by Pale Rider »  

Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #90 - 08/21/11 at 16:29:48
 
Thanks for the pic, PR.  

I was too was wondering if what you needed was an A/V processor although I am not quite certain yet I completely understand the problem you were trying to solve and so didn't chime in.

Outlaw Audio has done something kinda interesting.  They will modify a Marantz SR-5005 receiver by disabling the internal amps for those who want to use external amplification.  It is believed it will reduce noise caused by the seven amps and certainly will use less juice.  For those who have equipment in a cabinent, I could see this reducing the amount of heat too.  $500 delivered.  

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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #91 - 08/21/11 at 20:14:36
 
Michael, thanks for the suggestion. I will check it out, but if I remember correctly, they don't disable the preamp segment, though, do they?

Anyway, the problem is two-fold: (1) the Ultra only has one set of 5.1 inputs, or inputs that accommodate all 6 audio channels of a surround system; and (2) an increasing number of A/V sources deliver hifh quality video signal through HDMI, while the component outputs often do not deliver as good a video signal (my Comcast/Motorola PVR, for example), and even if they do, the audio is typically 2-channel.

Thr Ultra is well designed for a single 5.1 front end, such as a Blu-Ray, plus three other 2-channel sources. The mixing capabilities provide ample redirection capabilities for putting that two-channel signal wherever you want it. But it's not the same as having multiple 5.1 or even HDMI inputs. In my system, I have the Blu-Ray player, which has a 5.1/7.1 and a 2.0 output, and I have the cable PVR and Apple TV. So, I need to get all those signals into the Ultra (or the Blu-Ray player, though the Oppo has no device switching capabilities).

The 4x2 HDMI matrix switcher seems to do a good job of extracting the 5.1 signals, though there is a bit of brittleness to the sound (which could all be from the source device).

The only problem I am now having is getting the Center channel to perform correctly. Even with a 5.1 signal, the only way I can get the Ultra to send out a signal is to flip the Norm/Mixed switch to Mixed. I turned out at first to have a bum (non-Decware) cable. Replacing that solved the zero output problem. But I am still not getting quite what I expect. I will get that one figured out or I will ring up Steve. It should be easy to test: pull the Matrix and input the Oppo directly to the Ultra.
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« Last Edit: 08/21/11 at 20:47:09 by Pale Rider »  

Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #92 - 08/21/11 at 21:08:37
 
Another pic, now with the second center speaker added, new screen, and components slightly re-arranged on the two racks:

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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #93 - 08/22/11 at 02:10:18
 
Greg, thanks again for another pic and for the explanation.  I now understand better the issue.
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #94 - 08/22/11 at 03:18:04
 
Michael, I have noticed that the Outlaw and Marantz units get good reviews. This Marantz pre-processor is impressive, and I could see using something like that to get the 5.1 properly decoded from the Apple TV and cable. If I have to. I may return the Denon to the system to give it a try for a while. I could connect the cable and ATV to the Denon for decoding, and hook up the Denon to the second sets of inputs on the amps.

But that's small stuff to worry about. Right now, I have great 2-channel audio, great 5.1 out of the Blu-Ray, and very good mixed multi-channel out of the other sources.
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Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #95 - 08/22/11 at 03:54:53
 
PR, What Denon do yo have?

Thanks,
Lin
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #96 - 08/22/11 at 05:45:21
 
Lin, it's the AVR-2807, about 5-6 years old. Decent unit.
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Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #97 - 08/22/11 at 11:34:09
 
Pale, all looks very nice indeed! I am sure you will get all your bugs worked out in due time. When you tire of messing with all this multi-channel junk, I will gladly take a pair of those ERR's off of your hands! Hah! Just kidding! Again, very nice setup there! Enjoy! Tim
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #98 - 08/22/11 at 12:40:42
 
Greg,

The set up looks great, I have to ask however, why didn't you place the Torii's on top of the racks on each side? Mister symmetrical here asking!

I love the addition to your signature.....Nice touch!

ZYGI
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #99 - 08/22/11 at 14:25:51
 
@Tim: thanks, they are very involving speakers. And something like the SACD of  Pink Floyd's DSOTM is pretty amazing.

Bob, I have tried to decide whether to be symmetrical or not here. I actually want to get the set up re-arranged so nothing is on either top shelf. This one of those "compromising with video" problems. If I had no viewing screen, both Toriis probably would be on the top shelf: easier to tube roll, even better ventilations (though there is plent of air flow through the racks), showing them off, etc. But with the width of my wall acting as a bit of a boundary, I cannot move the racks completely to each side of the screen. So, I raised the screen just enough to remove it from the line of sight of the top of the rack + 4 inches. Something with very clean lines like the all-black Oppo works pretty well, but the Toriis, with their prominent AC lines and ICs, are a noticeable visual distraction. If you are the one person sitting straight on to the plasma screen, you're fine, but anyone at an angle gets a bunch of Torii silhouette as part of their visual experience.

When the racks first arrived, and I set them up, I briefly thought: "Should have gotten the 36-inch height," because the lower 6 inches wold have been much easier for non-obsrruction of the video. But I soon saw the 42-inch version was indeed necessary. I could live without the extra shelf in a pinch, but not without the height. Tubes and cords need clearance. If I only had two Toriis, no problem, or maybe an Ultra and one Torii, or two SE amps. But I don't. I have the Ultra, 2 Toriis, and 2 SE amps.

I have considered putting the two Power Plants up top, but they are neither the true feature of the system, nor matched. One other factor was limiting the length of analog cable runs. I wanted to keep the Ultra and front end Torii, close to each other, and the Oppo (with its analog outs) as close to the Ultra as possible. I first tried to put all amps, preamp, and Oppo on the same rack, and that did not work. Ah well, it will get sorted.
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Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #100 - 08/23/11 at 12:41:26
 
Greg,
That makes perfect sense. I never noticed that the rack impeded  the screen. I guess I was thinking more the cool factor, but I can see how a glowing tube or two Wink  could distract from the the person not sitting straight on.

Looking good at the Pale Riders house......
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #101 - 08/23/11 at 16:40:54
 
The cool factor would be undeniable. I would love to show them off more, but in person, the number of tubes and the amps are unavoidable and very impressive. I am going to place the Taboo next to the SE84ZS, drive it with the Ultra and use it for my headphones. All good. Thanks again for all the fantastic quality and craftsmanship, Bob.
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Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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atkatana
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Posts: 2
Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #102 - 08/23/11 at 21:26:49
 
So I am trying to make my mind up about the ERR's.  I am looking at them and the 944's.  Both grabbed me as they are efficient and will go well with a rebuilt Fisher 500c I expect back any day now.  Its a bedroom system but I live in a busy urban area and tend to run music all night.  The system can be on 10-12 hours a day easy between sleep and listening time.
I would like something that is close to full range 40 hrz will do, 30 would be better, but I can live if 40 is a realistic cut off.  I like a speaker to image, not beam or give up its location.  I will forgive some level of tone, and deep bass for a better image.  One that makes me forget there are speakers in the room.  Have been looking at some ohm's for a bit now, but have not pulled the trigger.  At the moment I have the Cantus Leasier II in the system and while very good, I would really love to play with something other then a monitor.  I owned Celestion SL 600's for over a decade and love monitors.  Says a lot about how much I value a speakers image.
Bottom line its a 3rd system in a small room 12x13x9 and while its gets a good bit of use I want something that appeals without breaking the bank.
So give the above can anyone tell me what they think.... ERR or the 944?
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ZYGI
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #103 - 08/24/11 at 02:17:38
 
Atkatana,

Welcome to the forum.......

From what it sounds like, you would be much better off with the ERR's that the MG944's. Being a bedroom system, and more passive listening than serious listening, and given the ERR's uncanny imaging ability, they would be the clear choice.

ZYGI
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atkatana
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #104 - 08/24/11 at 11:30:14
 
Thanks much Ziggy.... now all I have to do is talk the wife into another pair of speakers Smiley  Been leaning towards the ERR for a couple weeks now, but wanted to check with folks who had listened.

Thanks again, I supposed I will be getting in line for mine here shortly.
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Pale Rider
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #105 - 08/24/11 at 15:49:27
 
atkatana, welcome to the forums. I have never heard the 944 speakers, but given your target, I cannot imagine a better speaker than the ERR. Of course, a lot depends on your actual room and layout, but speaking only from my experience with the ERRs themselves, you will have all the imagery you could desire, and more bass than you might expect. You won't be forgoing anything.
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Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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beowulf
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Posts: 624
Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #106 - 05/22/12 at 11:32:21
 
Hi PR, that system is amazing!  Can you give me a brief rundown of the equipment involved on how it is all hooked up?

That is if the word "brief" can even be justified with the amount of gear hooked up   Smiley

Thanks!
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mac5u
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #107 - 05/22/12 at 23:09:51
 
That's a good question since you have had a few months to tweak everything.  

As for me, as much as I would love to have an Ultra, I just can't seem to get past the idea of not having some kind of digital room correction available.  I know this isn't important to a lot of folks but DRC, along with bass management, just seems so critical for HT and MCH use.
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hifitubes
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #108 - 06/03/12 at 08:05:09
 
Hi all,

I'm getting interested in the ERRs.

I have some questions though.

My current setup would mean they would have to be pretty high up off the ground, maybe 24". It's a tall room - I can post measurements later.

I could possibly stick them near the corners but they would be more at risk to my kids and not really working with room  aesthetic (i.e. wife).

The other thing is that I use Audiolense DRC and native convolution in JRMC. Would these speakers benefit like any other from some DRC in combination with my room treatments?
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ZYGI
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #109 - 06/05/12 at 16:42:20
 
Hiftubes,

its funny, I would have thought Lon might have chimed in here....

I would have to think raising the ERR's 2' off the floor would be counter intuitive. It just wouldn't work.

As far as placing them in the corner, would they still have to be 2' high?

The benefit of using DRC would depend on the room and the amount of room treatments that are in the room. And I guess some personal preference would go along here as well.

In this case, you might be better off with DM945's or Trapeziums, albeit the Traps like a stand of about 18"-20" tall.

ZYGI
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Lon
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Re: ERRs Have Arrived!
Reply #110 - 06/05/12 at 17:06:18
 
Thanks for responding Bob. I had no internet all weekend and I missed this one. . . . I mainly read the forum by the ten newest posts, which works fine for me when I am visiting several times a day, but not when I don't have internet for several days.

I agree that the ERRs would lose what makes them special in that set up. Darn!
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III, PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable IC: Evo and UL, Mapleshade:Double Heiix Samsonv2+v3 and 4"platforms,Herbie's IsoCups+Tendft
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