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Are you using a preamp? (Read 8375 times)
kana813
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Re: Are you using a preamp?
Reply #15 - 10/02/11 at 01:56:52
 
PR,

Nice to see that you got a PWD.

Did you get the Bridge?
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Pale Rider
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Re: Are you using a preamp?
Reply #16 - 10/02/11 at 03:09:31
 
Oh yeah, the Bridge is what makes it really go. I have two separate libraries on he network, one on the NAS, and one on a Mac mini running PS Audio's eLyric UPnP server.
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Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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kana813
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Re: Are you using a preamp?
Reply #17 - 10/03/11 at 07:26:58
 
PR,

That's  great.

My set up is very simple, Seagate HD/Netgear WNDR 3700 plus the Ipad app.

No computer required.
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Pale Rider
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Re: Are you using a preamp?
Reply #18 - 10/03/11 at 16:24:21
 
Kana, I don't need the Mac mini, but it is serving as an interesting test bed. The eLyric server offers some functionality not available in the typical NAS. Of course, one of the reasons to have an NAS or just a networked or USB drive is to avoid running a computer. eLyric server allows me some tag manipulation and other work that otherwise requires manipulating the files off the NAS or USB drive.

The eLyric iPad app is still too buggy under iOS 5, though the iPhone app under iOS 5 works quite well, while the Linn OSS app Kinsky works pretty well on both.
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Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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Gopher
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Re: Are you using a preamp?
Reply #19 - 10/12/11 at 17:04:47
 
I just bought an Audion Premiere with Phono to try with the Decware.  It has various upgrades including Mundorf Silver/Oil caps & internal 7n OCC Silver/teflon wire so I'm excited for it.

I won't get a remote, but Audion gear is supposed to be fantastic.  I've only ever heard one of their standalone phono preamps, but I have a suspicious that this may actually mate with the Torii.
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Gopher
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Re: Are you using a preamp?
Reply #20 - 10/16/11 at 02:18:43
 
the audion has been an outstanding pairing with the torii.  I'm very please with the sound I'm getting and I've got an excellent phono section to boot.

Shindo, Tubeguru, YS, Dodd...   Varying degrees of "not bad".  This is the first unit that's really enhanced things.  Quite pleased.
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Lon
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Re: Are you using a preamp?
Reply #21 - 10/16/11 at 02:41:29
 
Cool. That's the way that the PS Audio combo effects me, and I have no need or want for a phono circuit. Enjoy!
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III, PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable IC: Evo and UL, Mapleshade:Double Heiix Samsonv2+v3 and 4"platforms,Herbie's IsoCups+Tendft
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will
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Re: Are you using a preamp?
Reply #22 - 10/16/11 at 23:46:03
 
Gopher,

Can you describe what this pre does for your sound?

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Mac mini, Tranquility DAC, modded Oppo 83, TORII MkIV, MorrowAudio SP7 cables, HR-1s...VHaudio DIY, Grover, MAC ICs...PI Audio Uberbuss...PI, VHaudio DIY, Neotech DIY, Cryoparts DIY power cables, HerbiesAudioLab feet and tube dampers
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Gopher
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Re: Are you using a preamp?
Reply #23 - 10/18/11 at 01:51:00
 
I'm getting better tonal beauty, resolution and dimensionality.  The only real flaw I perceived in my system was a shallow, narrow sound stage--like 2D listening.  Things are VERY holographic now with super depth.  

Just top to bottom better defined and with more pull.  I also percieve a lower noise floor which I suspect can be attributed to another change I made--adding a Maestro A/C outlet.

In any event, I'm quite pleased.  Audion/Decware is a winning combination.
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torsionbar
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Re: Are you using a preamp?
Reply #24 - 11/07/11 at 23:56:09
 
@ Pale Rider

It's true, the Digital Lens is a great piece.  I'll never give up mine.  I think it's particularly important today, what with the flurry of very inexpensive (read: jitter prone) digital sources available these days.

I have an Apple Airport Express connected via Toslink to my Genesis Lens.  From there, it's AES/EBU balanced into my Northstar Designs m192 Mk2 DAC.  

Cheapo digital source -> Genesis Lens -> Good DAC

I'm a big fan of this recipe.  Genesis Lens takes a cheapo digital source (like a $79 Airport Express) and gives it a rock-solid digital output, on par with a very high-end CD transport.
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« Last Edit: 11/07/11 at 23:59:06 by torsionbar »  
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sberger
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Re: Are you using a preamp?
Reply #25 - 03/07/12 at 07:14:10
 
So after recently acquiring a slightly used Torii 3 I'm back and forth regarding using a pre with it. My pre is a CSP2. Steve himself made the comment in an earlier thread that the CSP2 gets in the way of the Torii and prefers to go direct with his most important sources. He is also quoted in the Tone Audio review that a pre should only be used if you have a world class unit at your disposal. Does that mean that the CSP2 does not fall into world class territory? I would think of all pre's out there that for synergy reasons alone that would be the one to use. I don't need a pre for sources as I have the rotary box.  And the answer to what are my ears telling me? I  don't know. The sound is perhaps a bit fuller and more defined with the CSP2,  but I'm also breaking in some new tubes in the Torii which certainly could have an effect.

So continuing this thread I would be interested in hearing from those of you who are using a pre, what it brings to the table and those that are not, why?

Lastly, I have not heard the term "Integrated" used with this amp. If you don't need a pre, doesn't that make it integrated? If not, why ?
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Lon
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Re: Are you using a preamp?
Reply #26 - 03/07/12 at 12:06:57
 
Hi Sam,

I do use a preamp with my Torii Mk II and my Torii Mk III. I generally use the CSP2 with my second system, driving the Mk II. I do this so that I can have three sources (two in the CSP2 and one into the Mk II direct) in that system. It does allow me great tailoring of the sound as well: balance control (needed in this system as the speaker placement is not ideal), tube-rolling frequency changes, and "riding the gain" (see below). In my main system, I use my PS Audio PerfectWave DAC as a source AND a preamp. I find that for Redbook (my most used source) having the Mk III all the way up or thereabouts and the DAC at 65 of 100 volume or so gets me a great open, deep, natural sound. Better than if i have the DAC maxed out and use the Mk III for volume control. This is in essence what Steve calls "riding the gain." I've posted a section of the ZStage manual below, this applies even more so to the CSP2 as youi can control input and output gain and there's that wonderful huge power supply in the CSP2. I would personally consider the CSP2 a top-notch preamp. What Steve says about preamps applies to the CSP2.

I have also used the CSP2 in the main system with the Mk III to ride the gain and it sounds great. . . . It's just not as necessary in that system as I have the preamp capababilities of the DAC, and it really is needed at the moment in the second system with the Mk II.

I suggest trying to "ride the gain"--that is the biggest advantage I see for you in using the CSP in front of the Mk III as you have a rotary switch box as well. If this makes an appreciable difference to the sound of the system, great! If not, put it on the shelf for a while.

THE MAGIC OF GAIN
By now if you don’t own one of the rare amplifies that requires more than 2 volts to come to full power, you’re  probably wondering what possible advantages could there be to using a ZSTAGE? Gain = Dynamics.  The more dynamic your music is, the more real it will sound.  Adding a ZSTAGE to your source  will increase it’s dynamics and overall presence.  In fact the difference can be such that the sound of your source  will improve so much your thoughts about upgrading it will melt away.   A customer recently purchased a new CD  player of considerable cost and reputation to replace his existing player.  The new player was better in every way  and justified it’s much higher price.  Then the player broke and the customer was forced to go back to his old player.   Sadness...   then he remembered he had a ZSTAGE in a different system, and placed it between his old CD player  and his preamp hoping it would make it sound better.  In fact it did, so much so that he could tell no difference  between this combination and the new player he had.  An example of how gain could save you a couple thousand  dollars! RIDING THE GAIN A term we came up with because of the active nature of the adjustment process that can take place when you use a  ZSTAGE in conjunction with an preamp OR amplifier fitted with a gain control. Riding the gain happens when you have two controls.  One at the source and one at the amp or preamp.  Think of it  like water pressure.  You have a pipe with a valve at the input end and another valve at the output end.  The valves  represent the gain controls and the pipe represents the signal path between the two gain gain controls. By turning up the input valve and turning the output valve down we create pressure inside the pipe.   By turning  down (closing) the input valve and turning up (opening) the output valve we reduce pressure inside the pipe.  So if  you took a garden hose and turned on the faucet you would have lots of water coming out the end, but it wouldn’t be  able to spray anything until you put a nozzle on the end.  The nozzle acts like a valve to restrict the output causing  the pressure in the hose to increase.     PRESSURE in this metaphor is the same thing as DYNAMICS in your stereo  system.

FREQUENCY BALANCE
By having a gain control at the source and a second one at the amp (or preamp) it is possible to manipulate the   dynamics of your music and it’s overall frequency balance.  For example, if the music sounds thin you can increase  the “pressure” by turning down the gain control on the amplifier (or preamp) and then raising the gain control at the  source.  This will add noticeable weight to the music and mellow out the top end.   On the other side, if the music is  sounding boomy or thick, you can do the opposite - turn up the gain on the amp and reduce the gain at the source.   The boominess will go away.
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« Last Edit: 03/07/12 at 12:07:53 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III, PS Audio PWT+PWD MkII,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable IC: Evo and UL, Mapleshade:Double Heiix Samsonv2+v3 and 4"platforms,Herbie's IsoCups+Tendft
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sberger
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Re: Are you using a preamp?
Reply #27 - 03/07/12 at 14:43:02
 
Lon thanks. That is a cool piece by Steve re Riding The Gain which is why his comments were a bit confusing to me. You're comments however make a lot of sense. Obviously this all becomes a personal choice but it's always helpful for me to better understand my options.
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vmax
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Re: Are you using a preamp?
Reply #28 - 05/28/12 at 05:21:13
 
I use a pre amp, for a simple reason, less heat. I tried using the input to run from My cd-player to the Torrii. the Torrii got quite abit warmer inside the unit than with a preamp when that input (from the cd-player) was selected, even with the Torrii volume down... the pre-amp has a better sound quality than My cd-player in My system also.....
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« Last Edit: 05/28/12 at 05:23:50 by vmax »  
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alper_yilmaz
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Re: Are you using a preamp?
Reply #29 - 05/28/12 at 09:15:12
 
I use a CSP pre in front of my Torii MKII.  My system includes a Mac Mini (fed by two separate external drives) feeding a Hegel HD20 DAC via Toslink.  The HD20 has a digital volume control and feeds the Torii quite fine with its 2.5 V output.

Somehow the CSP in between gives me more headroom, a more articulate sound stage and a better representation of bass, mids and treble.  The only downside is, somehow, as soon as I put the CSP in the signal chain, there is some hum in the system which does not get in the way of music, yet a bit annoying particularly late at night.  I swapped so many different tubes, but I have not been able to reduce the hum.  I have checked my connections as well, but no solution...

I am considering getting a Hegel P30 pre towards the end of the year.  Thankfully, I will have a chance to try it before buying it, as it is an expensive piece of gear.

Best,

Alper
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« Last Edit: 05/28/12 at 09:18:48 by alper_yilmaz »  
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