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Which input tube for a splash of seduction? (Read 38274 times)
Pale Rider
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Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?
Reply #15 - 07/07/11 at 15:48:21
 
Quote:
With this quality of sound, I really love the game. It all sounds good, but the exquisite lurks in there and when I hear it, it awakens new subtle explorations in the quest for more experience of it with a broader range of recordings.

Will, I think this is what Steve is saying about taking the time to find out what the Torii can really do. The exquisite lurks in there. I feel that way about the Taboo right now, with its combo of the Mullard rectifier, the Mullard signal, and the 6P15P output tubes. Along with the Mullard in the ZSTAGE, the combo sings, maybe a touch like Queen's Fat Bottomed Girls ;), but so sweet. I may try to tighten the bass up a tad, but I may not. It is that close to perfect.

With the first Torii in shipment, I am looking forward to all the possibilities.
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Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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will
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Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?
Reply #16 - 07/07/11 at 15:57:52
 
PR. That is great you have the Taboo where you want it! Good luck with the Torii! Fun!
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« Last Edit: 07/07/11 at 15:58:36 by will »  

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Pale Rider
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Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?
Reply #17 - 07/07/11 at 17:38:03
 
Fun indeed. And then, there is the Ultra, of course. I ordered it without tubes, so I won't quite know what it is supposed to sound like. I think Lon cautioned me on that point, but I was reckless. Wink Anyway, there will be a lot of virgin (to me) sockets.
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Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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Gopher
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Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?
Reply #18 - 07/07/11 at 19:10:31
 
Thanks guys.  In addition to those Nationals (changed order with upscale audio to platinum) I sourced some RCA 5u4gs to replace the Chinese that came with my Torii.

The rectifiers should be here Saturday, the nationals on the 12th.   In the meantime I'm going to try swapping the output tubes (Shuguang Black Treasures) in favor of stock (wing cs).  I only listened briefly with the SEDs before swapping them out and they deserve revisiting.  I know I'm in the minority, but I havent been too wild about Black Treasure and Psvanes in the past and only purchased thse as I saw Steve offers them specifically for this amp.  

Maybe stock will give me my romance, lol.  No shortage of variables with this amp!
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will
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Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?
Reply #19 - 07/07/11 at 19:16:18
 
PR, I suspect you will love all those explorations!

As I give the quest for engaging music at home more thought, it brings up some interesting stuff. It seems to me that the nature of life is to change and transform as we develop in interaction with our environment. And if we oppose the natural flow of change, trying to stop it, we get sad or sick. But if we accept its nature in reality, and nurture it in directions that are healthy for us, then change is our friend and it can happen much more rapidly than what is culturally expected. The foundation of change appears to be nature itself…the nature of all of us at once working in our own, and in our collective efforts to get better. And for most of us, a main thing we can influence is our environment.

The Torii (or other good music maker) is a big player in a lot of our environments, and since it can contribute to a natural conveyance of music, it gives us something we subconsciously like, something we develop a natural affinity with. So it can become a huge aspect of our time. This makes it a big player in our transformation in time. It and all its associates in our musical environments influence us on all levels, cellular to quantum, contributing to how and who we are. The frequencies, waves and patterns imprint us with information and patterning, and we heighten this interaction as we engage in the music.

Since music is for most of us heavily weighted in open mind consciousness or right brain, non linear perception and integration, it integrates in more rounded/overlapping/intuitive ways than linear process. In this, because it sympathizes with our deeper nature, making us feel better, we tend to take in natural art without many filters . In other words, we take in natural art, be it a wilderness environment, basket, painting, music or whatever as it was expressed, in an artistic way. This in many ways awakens a connection to the world for us, and is therefore a sort of food that we can come to crave once recognized.

In the natural comfort of this interaction, many overlaid and interdependent flows of information come in at once bypassing the comparatively glacial linear flow. I think this is a big part of why art is so compelling, it activates much of our natural mind function…..the function that allows "mind" to breath freely and interactively in nature.

Finally, by engaging deeply in the music, transformation (that we may not even notice) is natural. In this, something that was not there in this moment is potentially there in the next, just because we are different and therefore respond differently in our environment. So what is "right" now, may need refining as time passes.

Thus the game. As we change, we feel and respond differently, and for something we have an interactive relationship with, like our music environment, we may then be compelled to adjust it to suit what we believe will make us feel better now. And on and on and on it can go. But then there are things that just satisfy! Like a waterfall a Yosemite, or a Van Gogh, or your Taboo setup….things that are so close to natural balance that we just dive in and enjoy them. Or, like me, in a place of brilliance with the music, but at the moment, I love to explore nuances, nuances that shift in my every-changing sense of sympathetic interaction.

I think this points to the main part of the Decware beauty...it is natural enough in its conveyance of music that we crave interaction with it. It can carry natural frequencies, waves and patterns of music into our homes and daily lives. And in doing so in a way that we intuitively "know" to be real and comfortable, it sparks creativity...a fundamental, but culturally devalued aspect of our nature. This creativity can be sheerly in the experience/exploration of the music, or in the fun of coaxing the music toward a more sympathetic presentation, and for most of us, a combination.

So finally, to me, the game seems to be a product of creativity blooming into interactive processes toward more balanced and accessible musical engagement. And it can be looked at as a quest in resolving some levels of dissatisfaction, or as a quest toward natural refinement. I prefer the latter since it is the basis of natural transformation, and since the desire for more balance innately carries with it an interest in the unknown, it is the foundation of creativity. In this we explore and discover, explore and discover….discovering the experience of creative process and art.

Long story short, I think Decware and other natural conveyers of music are tools for creative exploration and the resultant art of creating and enjoying music at home. And anything that brings the creative into our lives is priceless.
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will
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Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?
Reply #20 - 07/07/11 at 19:19:15
 
Gopher,

Have fun! But also remember that the amp, tubes and cables need a lot of burnin. Some more than others. I think I recall that the Treasures need at least 300 hours! The Empirical burnin CD may be a good friend for now!
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will
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Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?
Reply #21 - 07/07/11 at 20:26:57
 
Gopher, I can't recall the amp you got. Wasn't it a very lightly used one?

Also, I wonder if you can describe what is missing in your sound, and describe what you would like that is not there? Semantics are such a mine field, and each system/room makes the same components act/sound differently, so I am just wondering if you can get more specific than "romance".

Once your system is all settled in, and if you are up for it, I would surely be interested in your impressions comparing the Winged Cs to the Treasures. The information on them is a little vague to me and they cost a pretty penny, so I have been reticent.
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Gopher
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Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?
Reply #22 - 07/07/11 at 23:08:00
 
Will,

I purchased this Torii lightly used from a gentleman in IL who had it posted on audiogon.  Rather than shipping it to me, he brought it to Steve for an inspection, the installation of a bass knob (it was an earlier Torii 3) and I had him swap the taps from 4ohm/8ohm to 8ohm/16ohm (I have Zu Soul Superfly 16ohm speakers).

The sound is fairly complete as is.  I'm experiencing awesome dynamics, powerful but controlled bass, nice harmonic richness/a very textured sound and overall resolution is great--its very accurate and sometimes honesty isn't always flattering.  I guess I'd like a splash more warmth and sweetness.  The mids are very meaty and textured, but a splash more tonal coloring would paint a really beautiful picture.

For perspective, before using the Torii as an integrated I was using a significantly more expensive combination of the Shindo Auregies preamplifier driving 845 SET monoblocks (with 300B drivers).

This is giving me a similar presentation then the esoteric separates, better in many instances, but its not quite as emotionally compelling and I imagine the things I bring up wanting may play a part.  

My room has some acoustic treatments to it, though I never took proper measurements--just went to town with some GIK pannels and the reflection point mirror tricks--it did help greatly as before the treatment my room was sounding miserable.
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Gopher
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Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?
Reply #23 - 07/07/11 at 23:57:52
 
I don't think the Shuguang Black Treasures are bad at all in this amp.  I tried going back to the winged cs to begin tonights listening session and it sounded threadbare by comparison.  

I'm glad I did right for once with high end Chinese tubes.  I've owned at least 5 other iterations of Black Treasure and Psvane and none have really impressed me (some I actually hate!)
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Lon
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Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?
Reply #24 - 07/08/11 at 00:19:40
 
Damn it G, you were supposed to say that the Winged Cs were just fine in comparison to the Treasures. Smiley

If I can find a job this year, I'll probably have to try them. Maybe Greg will tell us that the ones from ebay are just as good, that will help.
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kana813
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Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?
Reply #25 - 07/08/11 at 01:01:45
 
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will
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Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?
Reply #26 - 07/08/11 at 21:05:48
 
Gopher,

It will be interesting to see what you think of the National 7DJ8s.

In thinking of my setup, the Torii is not at all cool, in fact, I work to open/brighten it up, but this could be mostly room and tastes??? I do like what you seem to like and call romance....that captivating textural warmth but with detail and punch to further enliven the sense of realism. I would call my sound dynamic, slightly warm, textural, harmonically rich, and with clarity and sparkle so you can hear all the cool stuff like drum skins, reeds, keys, pads and the like, and cymbals sound just like cymbals, but string basses or kicks sound just right too. I think this combination is what makes it engaging, and is what evokes terms like romantic for me....it is an amazing thing to be able to be completely absorbed by the music.

So it is odd to me that your setup is a little cool. And you probably have looked at this, but I find bringing a new component into the system can require re-looking at speaker placement, cable configuration and so on. Makes sense since each component has a signature and in turn adjusts the signature of the entire system/room.

So I wonder...since you got a sweetness you liked from your previous setup, did you have to do any work to get there beside room treatments. Did you choose interconnects, speaker cables, power cables, or whatever to open/brighten up the old setup??? It could be that what was beneficial to the old amps might be working a little against the new amp.

As you have heard, the Torii is very revealing, and this can be good or bad...but for me, definitely good in the end if a little demanding. Every single thing I do in my system can be heard be it foot type and placement, different cables, minor speaker shifts...like I have all different audio power cables, and by shifting them around to different components, there is definitely cable to gear synergy for my tastes with particular configurations, and the opposite with others. Same with ICs. And some pretty subtle speaker placement and toe shifts can have a pretty strong impact in my room. This stuff is just so revealing, and I would say, not designed to color the sound much.

Just some more thoughts.
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Gopher
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Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?
Reply #27 - 07/09/11 at 02:59:18
 
Will,

Very insightful of you!  I actually struggled deeply with room issues before selling my Shindo/845s in an act of frustration before trying the Torii.  Here is a link to my journey:  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=94834.0  I think I actually need additional treatments but the wife's foot is kinda down and I've gotta work on bringing the aesthetic back up after all my experimenting:  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=95556.0

I didn't say it was at all coolish.  My sound is very neutral and transparant, I'm not looking for greater accuracy--if anything I'm looking for a little embellishment.  For perspective, I prioritize emotional involvement over audiophile adjectives any day of the week.  My gut tells me the Torii may allow me to achieve both.  I'm hoping the Nationals are in my mail box tomorrow, but I imagine it will take a while to burn them in...
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datman
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Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?
Reply #28 - 07/09/11 at 03:19:50
 
It didn't take more than 10 hours for the 7DJ8's to break in. They have sounded excellent from the start.
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Lon
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Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?
Reply #29 - 07/09/11 at 03:45:15
 
Gopher, if the Nationals aren't your cup of tea, have you tried the 6N1P or the 6N2P?  Like you I look for that little bit of forgiveness, that little diminishment of brutal detail that brings a romantic edge to the utter transparncy and can make less perfect recordings stand out less. These tube types have gotten me there.
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