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Which input tube for a splash of seduction? (Read 32841 times)
Lon
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Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?
Reply #120 - 08/11/11 at 03:21:28
 
Wow, thanks for that summation!

This amplifier is maddeningly revealing, and the good news is that with effort we can each find incredible sounds. OUR incredible sounds. Or you can take the amp the way Steve delivers it. . . and have incredible sounds!

Very good advice, nice method to follow here!
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kana813
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Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?
Reply #121 - 08/11/11 at 07:29:55
 
"This amplifier is maddeningly revealing, and the good news is that with effort we can each find incredible sounds. OUR incredible sounds. Or you can take the amp the way Steve delivers it. . . and have incredible sounds!"

Lon,

When you mute your PWD, do you have any noise/hum coming from your speakers?
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Lon
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"Love without
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Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?
Reply #122 - 08/11/11 at 12:16:31
 
Yes, just as before. When my ear is about five inches away. I don't even think about it.
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« Last Edit: 08/11/11 at 13:27:53 by Lon »  

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Gopher
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Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?
Reply #123 - 08/11/11 at 14:39:46
 
Does anyone have any additional thoughts on the JJ 6CA7s?  It sounded like they may have been cheap Black Treasure killers.

I sometimes wonder if these black treasures stunt the fullest emotional expression of these amps--other high end tubes have left me numb.  Things sounds very good as is, but I wonder if more pull might come from other outputs.
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Lon
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Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?
Reply #124 - 08/11/11 at 15:50:40
 
I used these in the Integrated as a pair, with good results. I think I preferred the Mullard reissue EL34s by a hair. And Winged C's by a hair over the Mullard reissues.

The JJs are very nice, warm, in that amp.  I've never used a quartet in a Torii.
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« Last Edit: 08/11/11 at 15:51:10 by Lon »  

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Pale Rider
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Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?
Reply #125 - 08/11/11 at 16:37:22
 
Gopher, I think the JJs are more than okay, quite nice.  But Shuguang-killers? Not so far. On a $4$ basis, maybe so, but then things get awfully subjective, as if they weren't already!

Not quite sure what you mean by "stunting the fullest emptional expression" of these amps, but that certainly hasn't been my experience. If it weren't for Steve offering the GTs as an option, I might never have considered them. As it is, I am glad I did. One thing I have learned, and as you and others have observed, is that it's not just the one tube that matters, it is the synergy of all of them together. I have the 0B3 VR running right now in my Torii, and it is sounding very, very nice. Bass seems rich, but not quite as fat as the 0A3 was sounding.  I have a couple of NOS Raytheon 0C2 for the other regulators, but expect some 0B2 to arrive soon. I have also tried a number of rectifiers, and have yet to settle on the one I like best. I have some 1950s RCAs of various typers that just arrived, and will start listening to just those soon. Again, it goes to that synergy issue. Every single change produces more than just the addition/subtraction of the one tube type; it also produces changes in the other tubes and the amp overall.

Don't know if you noticed it, but on the comments on the Tone Audio blog post about the Torii, one poster asked Jeff about his thoughts of the Torii as compared to the RWA Signature 30.2. Jeff observed the obvious (very different amps), and then commented on the fact that RWA is what it is, and short of a flavored pre-amp in front of it, there is no rolling the sound. In contrast, the Torii is a tube rollers dream. I would add "Or nightmare. Or maybe manic obsessive rabbit hole." Wink
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datman
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Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?
Reply #126 - 08/11/11 at 19:51:28
 
As the one who introduced introduced the JJ 6CA7 to this forum, I think it is time for an update. Now that the JJ's have fully broken in In can unequivocally say they outperform the Treasures IN MY SYSTEM, particularly at the extremes. As a matter of fact, my amp provides so much additional information that I can now hear the sonic linits of my Squeezebox Touch/Wyred 4 Sound DAC-1. This is costing me some real money.

I have just acquired a Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2 so I can connect my new Sonore Signature music server via I2S. Once this is all put together, I expect to be able to hear some amazing results. What I do know for certain is that whatever changes this combo provides I will be able to hear them through my Torii.
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« Last Edit: 08/11/11 at 20:13:52 by datman »  

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Pale Rider
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Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?
Reply #127 - 08/11/11 at 20:11:49
 
So, datman, you gonna unload those Treasures? Wink
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datman
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Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?
Reply #128 - 08/11/11 at 20:13:09
 
Already done.
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will
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Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?
Reply #129 - 08/11/11 at 20:42:34
 
Hey Datman, Thanks for the input. Sounds compelling to me. I wonder if you could elaborate on what the JJs sound like compared to the Treasures. I like a lot of information too, but sometimes it comes at a cost of excessive brightness, hard edges, hyper realism etc. I am guessing this is not your experience, but since we all have different tastes, rooms etc...just wondering if you might describe the context of your preferences for these tubes.....the other tubes you are using with the JJs and what you love about the sound they give in your Torii.


PR, just wondering the same from you. I know you might not be there yet with burn in and adapting your new system, but if you feel like it, could you describe what you hear/like/dislike from the JJs and the Treasures, and what other tubes you are using.

Thanks guys! Cool

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Pale Rider
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Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?
Reply #130 - 08/11/11 at 21:06:37
 
Hey Will, you bet. Remember that one of my Toriis probably has less than 100 hours on it, while the other probably has between 500-600 hours on it. And so, this assessment should be taken with more than a few pounds of salt. [In fact, I made the decision to swap them last night, and while it was the right decision, and I can hardly call it "painful," the newer one definitely sounds less pleasing than the older one; in a word, I would say the newer one sounds "etched," or perhaps less three-dimensional.]

If I had to pick one characteristic, that for me defines the difference between the two tubes—as opposed to merely being distinct—it is in the high end. To me, the JJs sounded a bit "over-smooth" on the top end, perhaps even rolled off. As I have mentioned before, I don't trust my owns ears too far past 15kHz, but this was where I noticed the difference. That range, between 7500-15k, is so critical to the imagery and soundstage, and that's where a big part of my tastes lie, that I felt I was missing something with the JJs. In the mid to low registers, the JJs seemed a touch tauter, but maybe not quite as full. I have learned that every single tube in the Torii seems to impact the lower end, so this perception I am quick to qualify with: "could be the VRs I was playing with, also."

On an ROI basis, do the Treasures justify costing 4 times as much? Probably not. In market-hype-speak, does that make the JJs "Treasure-killers"? Perhaps so. Since I own both, I think I may take advantage of the Ultra's flexibility and switching capabilities to perform a better-than-side-by-side test of the two.
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datman
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Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?
Reply #131 - 08/11/11 at 21:18:54
 
Compare and contrast. Always fun, so here goes. The primary difference between the JJ's and the Treasure's lies in the extremes. When I first installed the JJ's my immediate reaction was "where did all this bass come from?" My system had never been bass deficient before, but all of the sudden I bass extension that simply was not there previously.

Initially the highs were a little rough. Because I have tinnitus I am very sensaitive to this. Once the JJ's were broken in, the highs smoothed out and now they go on forever with no edge or grit. The treasures also porduced excellent highs as far as they went, but not what I am geting from the JJ's. The one area that both tubes were alike is in soundstage presentation. The JJ's produce a fully formed image between my speakers complete with excellent 3d characterisitcs, as did the Treasures.

The one other area the JJ's exceed the Treasures is in micro detail. As I said in my earlier post, with the Treasures, I never really noticed any limitations in my digital playback. With the JJ's I notice there is not the kind of sonic differences I would expect when playing 24/96 downloads. What I attribute this to is the greatly increased resolution of tyhe JJ's. They have actually allowed me to hear the limitations of my Touch/DAC-1 digital front end.

So being the good neurotic audiophile that I am, I have ordered a Sonore Signature I2S output digital server and a DAC-2 with I2S support. From what I have been able to ascertain, this combo should allow me to hear EVERYTHING I couldn't with the Touch.  

I am using the following tubes:

JJ 6CA7 outputs
Svetlana NOS Blackplate 5U4G
0C2 and 0A3 regulators ( I didn't have much luck playing with these)
National 7DJ8 input tubes

My speakers are Musical Affairs Grand Crscendo KM30 SAG with PHY-HP coaxial drivers.

Preamp is a Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE.
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Pale Rider
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Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?
Reply #132 - 08/11/11 at 21:31:11
 
Interesting that datman and I both suffer from tinnitus, and still hear things differently!

I do note that I have not listened to my Toriis on my computer rig. I am on the verge of putting a W4S DAC-2 in my rig, but all that listening is through the Cavalli Liquid Fire headphone amp [formerly, the Taboo, but not because of any sonic deficiency in the Taboo] and my Audez'e LCD-2 cans.
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will
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Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?
Reply #133 - 08/11/11 at 21:37:41
 
Thanks guys! I appreciate that.

Very interesting to me too that for one the JJ highs are more extended and the other, they may be a bit rolled off! Indicates the synergy thing I think but then.....headphones versus speakers in a room.....Mannnn...too many variables!

I have definitely noticed a bump in all the various areas with certain tube combinations. The more subtle changes are expected, but the big bumps are always a surprise especially when it is bass extension. I guess this is due in part to the Torii can go down low if all else can. But the thing is that some combinations of tubes really impact one another more than others!

Wow, both of you sound like you are having a lot of fun!
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« Last Edit: 08/11/11 at 21:39:16 by will »  

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will
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Re: Which input tube for a splash of seduction?
Reply #134 - 08/11/11 at 22:01:40
 
Datman,

Were your Treasures from Grant and if so, which selection.
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