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ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons (Read 31273 times)
will
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #90 - 10/18/12 at 16:58:23
 
Lon, I don't mean to say the HR-1 differences are responsible for what I call a sense of players in the room, though I think they contribute to this. My MG944s did it for me too, but the HR-1s do it with refinement to the timbre, smoothness, and realism.

I think our difference of opinion of the engaging aspect of the sense of a player in the room is a different matter than the question over whether the speakers you are talking about, are not exactly what Bob is producing now. This is the main point to me, that you making very careful comparisons on the speakers as if they were the same, and maybe they are not all that different, but maybe they are.

And here it can be semantic too. You and I both can go on about subtle cable differences... in one mind they can be huge and in another subtle.
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« Last Edit: 10/18/12 at 17:00:12 by will »  

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Lon
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #91 - 10/18/12 at 17:25:58
 
Yes, our differences are about the use of the phrase "players in the room." I've seen it used over and over again in audio as some sort of literal thing and I just can't ever say it happens for me. Not even with expanded mind! Smiley I know what people mean, but taken literally it's just never true for me and I can't say it.

I'm trying to describe the differences between the HR-1 and ERR that I have, and I think the differences would stand as clearly delineated no matter what "version" of HR-1 I have. When I first got the HR-1 I mentioned the differences that I heard with the grilles off and I remember Bob noting he didn't really notice a difference. I do. So maybe it's room dependent, but I do, and so did the other pair of ears I trust locally, my friend trumpeter Dave Laczko. I don't think it's differences in versions as Bob didn't hear it. Maybe set up, source, cabling, power, room? I don't know. It's quite distinct.

Anyway, I'm done talking about the sound. Back to listening!
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« Last Edit: 10/18/12 at 17:58:36 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
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Pale Rider
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #92 - 04/08/13 at 04:15:12
 
I have a pair of HR-1s on order, but after my latest experiment I am rethinking this. While doing some room sweeps with the DSPeaker, and staring at my custom servo subs and my ERRs, I realized the base of the ERRs and the top of the subs are virtually identical in size, and the angle of the cabinets is likewise almost identical. Although the subs were built to match visually with the ERRs, it turns out the builder did not intentionally match them this closely. So, I tried something as indicated in the attached pic [sorry for the quality; daughter's phone]. I plopped the ERRs on top of the subs, and all I can say is the effect is amazing, and not just to me, but to at least two musician friends, who insist, like me, the soundstage imaging is much improved.

And after running a couple of more sweeps, I have to say the 2-channel imaging is extraordinary. Bob wrote me today to describe some of his latest listening with the most recent HR-1s he built, and his description sounds divine, but what I have going now, especially with an extremely well-matched room/amplitude curve, is itself fairly breathtaking. Lon, that Trinity Revisited recording of Blue Moon is spell-binding.
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« Last Edit: 04/08/13 at 04:15:58 by Pale Rider »  

photo_2_001.JPG

Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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Lon
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #93 - 04/08/13 at 11:28:22
 
Wow, interesting. I've not been that crazy in the past about a tweeter level that high, but it should be addressed in a case by case basis. If it saves you the money of the HR-1s, that's way cool. Keep us posted!
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
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Pale Rider
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #94 - 04/08/13 at 14:12:28
 
Yeah, Lon, me either. I was surprised by several things: (1) the better-than-expected vertical dispersion of the tweeter (I already knew it was decent from above, because when I stood, the speakers still had excellent high frequency performance and imaging, so on reflection, it was less surprising that the vertical dispersion should also be effective downward; (2) the eeriness of the appearance of strong, almost-visible instruments and musicians in front of a large block of wood (something I have experienced before with good tower speakers); and (3) the lack of any holes in the image.

I was not looking to save the expense of the HR-1, and I have not canceled my order yet, and still may not. But it is making me think. I have had a number of systems with very effective bass over the years (including an amazing pair of isobarikally loaded dual subs, built with Dynaudio drivers and playing beneath 6-foot ribbon towers), and I have had systems without. Getting the bass right here is huge. Paul McGowan makes this point often over at PSA. My current subs were built using Rhythmik Audio amps and servo woofers. McGowan recommends servos, as did my builder, and these were built to be as fast as possible to integrate well with the ERRs, and they do. I will see if I can post the before/after freq sweeps, because it is interesting to see what has been achieved in my room, with the combo of the ERRs and the subs, and the "management" of them by the DSPeaker.
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Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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Lon
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #95 - 04/08/13 at 14:52:19
 
I'm not really surprised that it is working out. I have no personal in room experience with subwoofers, multi-channel, etc. and I found that with two ERR the bass in this room is great. But the HR-1 have even better bass, and the tweeter is a bit higher and that (and the front-firing driver) add more specific and conventional imaging and directional sound. I actually like the ERR complete sound a bit better, but other listeners in my room prefer the HR-1 == in part because they find dialog easier to hear (they have a bit of hearing challenges compared to me) and also because they are used to the more conventional presentation elements within the HR-1 presentation.

An ERR on top of a subwoofer would be introducing a stronger bass and an elevated tweeter position, similar to the HR-1 presentation, so I can see that this would be quite interesting.

Of late, with the addition of the PS Audio PerfectWave PowerBases and recent rectifier changes to the Torii I have what I think is very accurate and dynamic bass with the HR-1s and don't feel the need for Mid Bass Modules or sub-woofers and I'm enjoying sound like never before. I'll probably put the ERRs back in before I pack up the system in a week or so, and I'm really curious to hear how things will be in my new home in Ohio.

Keep us posted! Always interested to hear how your system is developing.
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Pale Rider
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #96 - 04/08/13 at 15:15:29
 
Yeah, it is a bit visually "disruptive," but it is working so far. Sometimes, I have to close my eyes and not look at the tower, and that's when the soundstage is readily apparent. And on some of the finer BluRay audio discs, all channels are just amazing.

Interesting comment about dialogue and the ERRs. I think you are correct about this. We tried my system with no center speaker, using only phantom center. And both young and old agreed that dialogue was difficult to discern. Bob suggested the HR-1s would have much less difficulty presenting a credible phantom center channel. We then tried restoring one ERR [remember, my center ERR tweeters are rear-firing], and this restored proper center channeling, and made dialogue much easier. Of course, with the volume control on the SE84ZS, and decent home theater speaker management, I have the flexibility to adjust the volume, but a center ERR was a necessity with the others. My next experiment is to flip the tweeter to forward firing and see what impact that has. One of the beauties of the ERR, is that the rear-firing effect tends to make dialogue and other center effects track beautifully across a large screen. So, will see if the forward-firing is too directional.

Looking forward to hearing about your system in its new home.
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Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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will
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #97 - 04/08/13 at 16:31:46
 
Pale Rider,

I am wondering if you have tried to sort out how much of your sound stage improvements can be attributed to the DSpeaker, and how much to the tower arrangement. The way you describe it, sounds like how I might describe mine...stable and saturated player locations, height, width, depth, and spacial relationships giving players a sense of being in a real room. But most of all, it is so captivating to hear players sound so present and real, to be so naturally located and integrated with one another, and to have some of them through and outside the walls of the room. Then there is the ambience.......

To get this refined took some serious room/system management trying for that fine line balance of realistic bass, a rich midrange, and just enough detail to really dial in the soundstage. The bass is pretty amazing now, but after doing all the room treatment I can get together without being obnoxious in the living room, it is an ongoing process that to most might be pretty tedious..adjusting specific eq frequencies, Q's, and cuts in Pure Music as new resonance flaws show up from new recordings. They say this can't be done by ear, but I think it has worked very well, though it has taken a lot of time. I do wonder though, what your magic box would do, and how much easier it would do it!

Tweeter placement is not standard here either, my HR-1s (placed close together, only 46" inside plinth to inside plinth) sound best toed slightly out...just slightly. You literally can't get any sense of the speakers putting the music in the room location-wise...they sit there appearing to do nothing. Though most recordings are naturally narrower, the player part of the soundstage can go beyond the width of our main living area...30 some feet wide, and maybe 15 feet deep on good recordings. "Normal" toe in reduces the stage considerably and makes the speakers more obvious. So your quirky, high tweeter placement really working well does not surprise me.

Anyway, if you get some time, I would love to hear more about the DSpeaker influence on your sound in general, and what part you think it plays in the soundstage improvements.
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« Last Edit: 04/08/13 at 16:46:30 by will »  

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Lon
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #98 - 04/08/13 at 17:59:53
 
Greg, I actually don't have problem myself with dialog with the ERR, I love how the voices stand in the air and they seem positioned across my (smaller, 40") screen well. Those who have trouble with the ERR have some hearing issues (one tinnitus, two age related hearing loss) that I don't have (had my ears tested recently, quite good hearing).

They are also persons who use their tv speakers for sound at home, and everything is presented so differently that way!

And again, I'm only dealing with 2 channel, which I imagine makes a difference from 5.1 or 7.1.

The HR-1 does present voices in a way that they hear more easily, and also over time they've adapted to the sound of the voices on my system a bit more.
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« Last Edit: 04/08/13 at 18:20:00 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
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Pale Rider
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #99 - 04/08/13 at 19:41:47
 
@Lon, remember that I have that big gaping screen in between the speakers, plus the two ZRACKs of components, and so, while I am not sure I would say dialogue was difficult to discern without the center channel [interestingly, it was my children and girlfriend who said that most, while I, tinnitus and all, had the least difficulty with the phantom center channel], I would say that it was decidedly different, and less "direct." But I also have that experience you describe, and in my case, on 5.1, part of it relates to the rear-firing ERR. These big towers now look even more inert and inactive, like they have nothing to do with the sound hanging in the mid-air. I like the way my girlfriend put it: "I can tell where everything is, but I cannot tell where it is coming from."

@will, I did skip a step here, one that I plan to post over in my thread in Home Theater. The DSPeaker difference was very nearly night and day, even before I created the "Ziegler Tower." This was true with and without the subs in circuit. The ERRs, before the DSPeaker, were very very good, though a tad bass-shy. With the DSPeaker, the bass curve falloff was smoothed, and imaging was improved.

But with a single sub in circuit [a 2.1 configuration], the full sense of depth was very impressive. And the bass is deep and tighter than a, well, that can go unsaid. Switching to a 2.2 configuration was even better, because I got the benefit of a deeper image, especially on the right side of the orchestra. But choosing to treat the subs as not subs, but extensions of the ERRs, and setting the DSPeaker for 2.0 was best of all. And it is when I did that that I got the idea of sticking the ERRs on top of the subs [subs have been in the house for months; shows how dense I can be]. And the combo of the vertical height [which works very well for creating a broad soundstage across the monitor], and the bass control/room control, was just amazing. To your point Will, the system was already sounding good by virtue of the DSPeaker. The tower was an improvement, but not as much as the other. The depth and speed of incredibly taut bass is a real jaw-dropper, and the integration of that into the freq curve, while adjusting it for the room, makes all the difference I think..

I have to say I will not run my system without something like the DSPeaker in it. I am not sure I am prepared to boot my PWD/Lumin/Ultra combo for the DSPeaker, as one reviewer said, in part because it cannot handle all the hi-res I play, but I will say that its presence in the system is the single biggest improvement since I drank the Decware Kool-Aid.
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Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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Lon
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #100 - 04/08/13 at 22:13:32
 
Yeah your setup is a little different than mine. I have my audio rack about two feet from the front wall with my TV on top, and the speakers about thirty inches in front of the rack, and my seat about five feet in front of them. Works really well in this room.
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will
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #101 - 04/09/13 at 17:43:06
 
Thanks Pale Rider.

PR said: Quote:
I am not sure I am prepared to boot my PWD/Lumin/Ultra combo for the DSPeaker, as one reviewer said, in part because it cannot handle all the hi-res I play, but I will say that its presence in the system is the single biggest improvement since I drank the Decware Kool-Aid.


That is impressive indeed. Another tribute to the power of room on a system as well as the amazing ability of the DSpeaker to fix that without sonic complaints. Says something for the trend of 2.2 systems too! Subs doing more than just beef up bass.

This is exciting. Sounds like the magical tool you needed to pull your sound into a more sublime state with little pain!

A few more questions if you get the time???

Where in the chain did you hook it up?

How did you hook it up?

You aren't using it presently as a DAC are you?

Can you hear it other than the EQ sorting it does?

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Pale Rider
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #102 - 04/09/13 at 19:17:49
 
will asked:
Quote:
A few more questions if you get the time???

Where in the chain did you hook it up?

The DSPeaker is currently hooked up just before the Ultra. It feeds channel 'B' and that channel then feeds the subs. Right now, the Lumin feeds the DSPeaker directly. I tried using Emotiva as a switch between the Lumin, PWD, and the 105, and it worked, but it sure put a lot of gain controls [analog and digital] in my signal path. So, for testing, I just used the Lumin. It also had the effect of removing my subs from my HT rig. Great for 2-channel, but not so hot for movies or BluRay audio through the 105.

That is all changing this week, because I realized that I have the perfect switching device for swapping the sub inputs directly between the home theater and the stereo—the Zektor. Each system has its own processor, the Emotiva for HT, and the DSPeaker for 2-channel. So, I will finish setting up the sub-switcher this week, and then I will have it all lined up. Although John Mingo of Baetis advised me last night the Baetis is about to ship out, so I will have a whole new problem, er, solution to insert into the system.

Quote:
How did you hook it up?

You mean, which connections? It's unbalanced analog. The DSPeaker has the ability to output both balanced and unbalanced at the same time, but there is nothing on the Decware side that can receive the balanced signal.

Quote:
You aren't using it presently as a DAC are you?

Nope.

Quote:
Can you hear it other than the EQ sorting it does?

Zero noise from the unit. No hum. And none of that "breathing" that hallmarked earlier DSP. Interestingly, the quality of the volume control in analog mode is excellent. I tried some low level listening, using the DSPeaker as a volume reducer, and the level of detail remained very engaging.
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Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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will
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #103 - 04/10/13 at 04:52:01
 
Thanks Pale Rider.
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Pale Rider
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #104 - 04/10/13 at 14:30:44
 
You bet will. I noticed some interesting changes over at the US retailer site for DSPeaker. They are now selling a nice looking PSU for the DSPeaker, and some interesting interconnects and a USB-over-Ethernet transceiver/cable combo. They are clearly marketing to the audiophanatic market now, as well they probably should, given the very enthusiastic reception and reviews they are getting. I rather wish that PSU had been available when I placed my order, but then, I don't hear any noise or "loss of black" from the device anyway.

If anyone is actually interested in one of these devices, and is using subs, I encourage them to consider the 8033 series of units as well. These are much less expensive, and deliver 95% of the functionality of the Anti-Mode. I almost went with an 8033S-II, but I decided I wanted the visual feedback of the Anti-Mode, and the flexibility it offered with full-range speakers, in case I separated out my system. I may yet buy an 8033 for my downstairs HT system, just because I am very, very impressed with what their electronics do for real bass. My family have also noticed that LFE is much more enjoyable with the DSP, because the effects no longer seem as bloated or exaggerated, and there is less of that LFE overhang—or is it "hangover"?—from the room interaction. As my daughter put it, the dinosaur stomps sound like stomps, not thunderstorms.
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Decware: Ultra | Torii MKIII [2] | SE84ZS | Taboo MkIII Sources: Synology 1812+ | Baetis Revolution | PWD DAC MKII | Lumin Network Player | Mytek 192 | Oppo 105 DSP: DEQX Mate | Emotiva Outputs: ERR [6] + Servo Subs | LCD-2 & other cans
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