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ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons (Read 15390 times)
Pale Rider
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #50 - 07/02/11 at 17:54:40
 
Lon, your post is very timely. My Premier arrived yesterday, and despite the carping from some sectors about Chinese production quality, it is a handsome unit, that not only feels robust due its weight/volume ratio—those big-a$$ toroidal transformers will do that, just like with my Transcendent Balanced Power Supply—but has excellent fit and finish. I cannot discern that it is a B-stock from appearance. I immediately decided to order another. Alas, they are no longer available from MD.  

I plan to test both my BPS and the Monster AVS-2000 I have been using for years by plugging the PPP into them and measuring the THD on the power. Additionally, I have ordered a PS Audio Soloist Premier to replace the mains receptacle in my living room. I also picked up a couple of their Noise Harvesters after reading some positive reviews. Good price on fleabay.

Your points about the improvement of your sonics echo exactly what Steve writes about in every single user manual, and in several papers.
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« Last Edit: 07/03/11 at 01:13:00 by Pale Rider »  

1: Merging NADAC | Merrill Audio Veritas Amps | Legacy Audio Aeris
2: MSB Select II | Mjölnir Carbon Select | Stax SR-009
3: PSA DirectStream |KGHVSS | Stax SR-007
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Lon
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #51 - 07/03/11 at 03:09:34
 
Greg, be sure to let us know your findings!

Okay, I really surprised myself. Shortly after my last post I exchanged the locations of the ERRs and the HR-1s.

What was surprising was I immediately missed the ERRs. I listened all afternoon and til an hour ago to the HR-1s. Fantastic speakers. So detailed and musical. But. . .well. . . I find that at this time, in the main system, I am preferring the warmer, larger sound from the ERRs. There's a certain precision and a certain type of spaciousness from the HR-1s that the ERRs can't do, but there's also a more dynamic sound, a more punchy low bass that the ERRs provide the HR-1s don't. And that has been what sold me so far. I think that the real reason is the height of the speaker. having the tweeter about the height of the midrange driver on the HR-1s seems to make the difference. The tweeters on the HR-1 are thus higher by a good bit and that impacts the sound a lot. And having the more fully exposed upward firing radial driver also shapes the sound. And I just plain love the sound.

It's great to have tow wonderful options, as I do with Redbook playback from my SCD-XA5400ES playback and ZDAC-1 playback. I can switch back and forth and either way I have great sound.

Kudos kudos kudos Bob and Steve. This just proves I love the Radial sound in its purest form, and the ERRs are the best example yet from the company of that sound. I'm a happy happy camper! Can't wait to hear what the grilles will do for the speakers.
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« Last Edit: 07/03/11 at 03:43:45 by Lon »  

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,ZBIT,Taboo III;PS Audio DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade spkr cbl;CambridgeAud CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt, Groovetracer upgrades+Exact2;VooDoo Cbl:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mplshade:Samson v3;Oppo PM-1;Audeze LCD2
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Pale Rider
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #52 - 07/03/11 at 03:52:25
 
Love reading that enthusiasm, Lon.
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1: Merging NADAC | Merrill Audio Veritas Amps | Legacy Audio Aeris
2: MSB Select II | Mjölnir Carbon Select | Stax SR-009
3: PSA DirectStream |KGHVSS | Stax SR-007
4: Lumin A1 | Audez'e King | HeadAmp GS-X mk2 |Audez'e LCD-4 | Senn HD800
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Lon
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #53 - 07/10/11 at 15:10:56
 
Another week has gone by.

I love these speakers. Can't wait to have the grilles. I've joined at last the ranks of owners and enjoyers of the ULTIMATE Radial speaker!
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Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,ZBIT,Taboo III;PS Audio DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade spkr cbl;CambridgeAud CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt, Groovetracer upgrades+Exact2;VooDoo Cbl:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mplshade:Samson v3;Oppo PM-1;Audeze LCD2
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Pale Rider
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #54 - 07/10/11 at 16:32:30
 
That sounds sweet Lon. Looks like mine will be shipping this week. All three pairs could show up at the same time. Good thing. I was debating whether even to connect the Torii to the Orb Audio speakers as a way to begin the break-in process. Would prefer not to.
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1: Merging NADAC | Merrill Audio Veritas Amps | Legacy Audio Aeris
2: MSB Select II | Mjölnir Carbon Select | Stax SR-009
3: PSA DirectStream |KGHVSS | Stax SR-007
4: Lumin A1 | Audez'e King | HeadAmp GS-X mk2 |Audez'e LCD-4 | Senn HD800
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mac5u
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #55 - 07/24/11 at 20:26:46
 
Lon,

Another two weeks have gone by.  How do things stand now?  Thanks.
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #56 - 07/24/11 at 21:42:14
 
Hey amigo,

In the last two weeks the PS Audio Power Plant Premier has been in the system and transformed it in a good way. I've been futzing with things more than I generally do as a result. And I found some SC series power cords from PS Audio at prices I couldn't resist (a Plus and a Premier) and I've added those to the system. I already had a Premier on the Torii and I put one on the CSP2 and the Plus on the ZDAC-1. Wow, these are excellent, and once broken in the sound is really amazing. Open and deep. Different than the Decware cords, I still like those and have them on the source components. But these expensive PS Audio cords are something else. My system has taken on a real solidity it lacked before, the cords help out the Power Plant Premier a lot, transferring the benefits.

The ERRs are allowing me to hear everything, any change I make in a tube or a cord or an interconnect. It's a bit maddening sometimes, especially when things are breaking in, but it's ultimately a great benefit. The IT Radials/HR-1 are also transparent and show me everything, but there's a certain spaciousness to the sound of the ERRs that I respond to with gusto. I don't have the grilles yet, it will be interesting to see how they effect the sound.

I'm very very happy. Right now I think it's time to save up or move money around over the next months towards a really great digital front end. I've been reading reviews of the PS Audio Perfect Wave Transport and DAC combo that are very intriguing. My system I bet would really drink that combo in and stream out great sound. I've got to get busy and see whether I'll have enough money to score one of those in the near future, or something like it. I now feel that my sources are the weakest link, it couldn't be the Torii or the ERRs or the cabling I have. Smiley  It sounds so good, but somehow I know that with better sources it could be even more fantastic.
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« Last Edit: 07/24/11 at 21:50:17 by Lon »  

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,ZBIT,Taboo III;PS Audio DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade spkr cbl;CambridgeAud CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt, Groovetracer upgrades+Exact2;VooDoo Cbl:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mplshade:Samson v3;Oppo PM-1;Audeze LCD2
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Pale Rider
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #57 - 07/25/11 at 16:48:51
 
Lon, keep us apprised of your digital front end explorations. The Perfect Wave series is really good stuff, but there are so many great options out there. I would encourage you to consider a true computer server. The folks at Computer Audiophile are full of great resources. CA's DIY "pocket server" is very intriguing.

Thanks for the recommendation on the PS Audio power cords; saw that a couple were "sale pending" on Audiogon, and wondered if hat was you. Wink Prices for those are all over the map, but watch out for the ripoffs and knockoffs.
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« Last Edit: 07/25/11 at 17:06:10 by Pale Rider »  

1: Merging NADAC | Merrill Audio Veritas Amps | Legacy Audio Aeris
2: MSB Select II | Mjölnir Carbon Select | Stax SR-009
3: PSA DirectStream |KGHVSS | Stax SR-007
4: Lumin A1 | Audez'e King | HeadAmp GS-X mk2 |Audez'e LCD-4 | Senn HD800
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #58 - 07/25/11 at 17:34:29
 
Agree about watching for knockoffs. I got taken once, use the cord as a guitar amp cord. Delivers lots of juice but doesn't sound as it should.

I think I'm going to go with the Perfect Wave combo in the near future. I HAVE tried a music server setup. This spring I gave a room free of rent to a friend of mine who moved to Austin three years ago (to a room in my house), after six months got out of here, then never quite took off here in town, didn't find permanent work, was back in my home for about four months, and moved to California.

He's a digital audio engineer. He has sold his entire cd collection over the last few years and moved it all into digital files and went totally computer based. (Doesn't seem ethical to me to sell the discs and keep the music, but he downloads stuff every day off the net, he seems to think music should be free. And he's a wannabe musician who would kill to be paid for a gig or a song. Go figure.)

He insisted on showing me on my system how and what it could be. Set me up, using his computer as the server, it's tricked out for audio purposes. I/we listened that way about three days.

Well. . . I was pretty under-whelmed. At best it sounded almost as good as my Sony SCD-XA5400ES or BDP-S5000ES feeding the ZDAC-1.  It didn't sound better to me at any point. And I didn't enjoy the process or using the computer for music. It's not for me. At least not now. I have about 15.000 recordings and I love the filing of them, the handling of them, how they feel and sound. Maybe one day I'll go there, but I really don't have a desire to. The appeal to the PS Audio units is they could be used as the nerve center of just such a system if I choose to, and they are the ultimately useful nerve center for my disc players. They can be non oversampling or you can choose sampling rates, you can invert polarity, it uses i2S via HDMI, it's really something. There's some money that was my wife's that I have to change over to my name, there's personal reasons why I haven't gone for it but I could really use the money now and I'm probably going to go for it. If I do I may buy "the last digital front end" (yeah right) I'll ever buy, whatever that is. I'm sort of using that as an incentive to get me to go through the giant pain to get my hands on the money.  We'll see.

Anyway, I know there's a lot of flexibility and benefit in going computer -based, but I'm not ready for that yet. I'm pretty locked in. I'm so happy with my system right now that I sort of want to get the best source for me and then spend less time on line looking at audio stuff, reading about audio stuff, talking about audio stuff, and go find some meaningful work. Get myself a life! Smiley

Thanks!
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Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,ZBIT,Taboo III;PS Audio DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade spkr cbl;CambridgeAud CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt, Groovetracer upgrades+Exact2;VooDoo Cbl:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mplshade:Samson v3;Oppo PM-1;Audeze LCD2
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Pale Rider
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #59 - 07/25/11 at 18:53:38
 
Makes sense. I like the Perfect Wave stuff a lot. Very, very good stuff. As you know, you and I sit on different sides of this fence. I like the amorphous nature of having all my files on the computer and interacting there. I like scrolling through thousands of cuts, "flipping" through album art on my iPad or iPhone, random shuffle play. I could still see doing the Perfect Wave Transport, but I don't think the DAC is the one for me. I love my modded PS Audio DAC. it is very nice, and have had little desire to replace it, but will have to add a new DAC to the home system eventually, when I bring the Synology Disk Station on line with the new system. It does very well so far as a music server, but it will take some more listening to decide whether the Oppo will be adequate as the front end for that server. I should re-phrase that. So far, the Oppo sounds good as an audio front end, and its network flexibility is quite excellent. In some ways, it is a poor man's PW Transport+DAC. But it is not the long-term answer. DACs will get better, and whether I use a Mac mini, or an Auraliti or a CAPS server, I will want a separate music server and front end.
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1: Merging NADAC | Merrill Audio Veritas Amps | Legacy Audio Aeris
2: MSB Select II | Mjölnir Carbon Select | Stax SR-009
3: PSA DirectStream |KGHVSS | Stax SR-007
4: Lumin A1 | Audez'e King | HeadAmp GS-X mk2 |Audez'e LCD-4 | Senn HD800
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Lon
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #60 - 07/25/11 at 19:26:02
 
Hey I can understand your position. I think the Perfect Wave combo will be perfect for my needs the next decade or so and will be a great complement to the Decware system I have.

Music Direct currently has a very good deal, the combo comes with two of the best PS Audio cables and their top of the line HDMI cable (for i2s connection between transport and DAC). This is very tempting as those would suit my needs admirably. I think I can swing the purchase and might do so. I like the way the DAC can be non-sampling or overs-sampling, that you can choose digital filters, and that you can invert phase with the touch of a screen---I have a number of Japanese cds that sound better to me with polarity reversed. Seems like a very satisfying product.
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Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,ZBIT,Taboo III;PS Audio DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade spkr cbl;CambridgeAud CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt, Groovetracer upgrades+Exact2;VooDoo Cbl:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mplshade:Samson v3;Oppo PM-1;Audeze LCD2
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Pale Rider
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #61 - 07/25/11 at 19:38:39
 
I took a look at that, a very good deal indeed. I suspect you would be very happy with that for some time to come.
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1: Merging NADAC | Merrill Audio Veritas Amps | Legacy Audio Aeris
2: MSB Select II | Mjölnir Carbon Select | Stax SR-009
3: PSA DirectStream |KGHVSS | Stax SR-007
4: Lumin A1 | Audez'e King | HeadAmp GS-X mk2 |Audez'e LCD-4 | Senn HD800
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Lon
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #62 - 07/26/11 at 15:25:21
 
Wow. Today everything sounds so rich and full and great that I wonder how it could sound better. But I know that it could.

The most recent PS Audio xStream cable I picked up, a Premier SC, has about 300 hours on it now and man I can't believe how good these cables are. Having one on the CSP2 and the Torii Mk III has just opened up a new vista in clarity and deptth. When broken in it's as if they suddenly take off. The Plus on the ZDAC-1 (which I am now using for Redbook in most cases, and Blu-Ray) is almost as good. Love these cables.

Listening to this one right now and it's just brutally hard swinging and stimulating. The system is just dishing it out. That Baney Kessell model Gibson guitar is just "testifyin'"!



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« Last Edit: 07/26/11 at 15:26:46 by Lon »  

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,ZBIT,Taboo III;PS Audio DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade spkr cbl;CambridgeAud CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt, Groovetracer upgrades+Exact2;VooDoo Cbl:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mplshade:Samson v3;Oppo PM-1;Audeze LCD2
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Lon
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #63 - 07/27/11 at 19:08:37
 
Well, I took the plunge. I ordered the PS Audio Perfect Wave Transport and DAC combo.

This HAS to be my last audio purchase for a long time! Smiley And it likely will be. I'm excited. With the I2S connection, the built in Digital Lens, the RAM buffering, the choices of over-sampling or non-over-sampling, the choice of five different digital filters, the fact that it should serve as an excellent preamp. . . I'm excited. I'll be able to remove from my system the ZDAC-1, the CSP2, my Sony SCD-XA5400ES, and the Peachtree Audio Decco that I was using as a second DAC. I can really beef up my bedroom system, or I could have a nice littel sale. Smiley This of course if I decide to keep the "combo" after the thirty day trial, but I have a feeling I will.

It should arrive sometime tomorrow. I'll of course list some impressions here over the weekend. Smiley

I know that the Torii Mk III and the ERRs are up to the task of showing me just how good this digital combo can be!
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« Last Edit: 07/27/11 at 19:10:55 by Lon »  

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,ZBIT,Taboo III;PS Audio DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade spkr cbl;CambridgeAud CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt, Groovetracer upgrades+Exact2;VooDoo Cbl:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mplshade:Samson v3;Oppo PM-1;Audeze LCD2
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mac5u
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #64 - 07/28/11 at 00:23:17
 
Lon, are you saying you are giving up, or even comtemplating giving up, your beloved Sony?

Shocked
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« Last Edit: 07/28/11 at 00:46:25 by mac5u »  
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Lon
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #65 - 07/28/11 at 01:42:21
 
Well, if the PerfectWave is great, I'll either keep the Sony in the system for uses with SACD discs, or put it in the bedroom as the main audio source there.

I already found, a year after buying the ZDAC-1 and using it for my DVD and Blu-Ray and DVR audio that for a lot of Redbook titles I liked the ZDAC-1 being fed by the Sony to be a bit better sound than the Sony alone. Still, the Sony excelled on acoustic recorded music such as jazz and classical. Just had a bit more of a sweetness. For the 1300 dollars I spent on it, the Sony is a real bargain, it didn't cost what this PS Audio combo does!

So, to answer your question. . . we'll see what happens!
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« Last Edit: 07/28/11 at 01:45:09 by Lon »  

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,ZBIT,Taboo III;PS Audio DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade spkr cbl;CambridgeAud CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt, Groovetracer upgrades+Exact2;VooDoo Cbl:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mplshade:Samson v3;Oppo PM-1;Audeze LCD2
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Lon
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #66 - 07/29/11 at 03:06:51
 
Typical. I splurged for overnight shipping, stayed here all day getting excited about the PS Audio combo and cables, and FedEx never came. ARGH!
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Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,ZBIT,Taboo III;PS Audio DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade spkr cbl;CambridgeAud CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt, Groovetracer upgrades+Exact2;VooDoo Cbl:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mplshade:Samson v3;Oppo PM-1;Audeze LCD2
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #67 - 07/29/11 at 04:03:36
 
Sorry to hear that. Frustrating. In all my years of ordering, I have only had one problem with FedEx, and it was so bizarre, that it was clearly an outlier. Driver simply delivered a new MacBook Pro [first of the Intel chip series] to a wrong address not far from my office, and when we finally tracked down where it went, the recipient tried to keep it claiming "finders keepers"! By the time I tracked it down, (less than 4 hours later) the a$$hole had already opened it up and set it up as his own machine. FedEx acknowledged the mistake, and Apple took it back and gave me a new one. Very weird. Other than that, in years of ordering, I have never had a FedEx problem. OTOH, don't get me started on UPS.
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1: Merging NADAC | Merrill Audio Veritas Amps | Legacy Audio Aeris
2: MSB Select II | Mjölnir Carbon Select | Stax SR-009
3: PSA DirectStream |KGHVSS | Stax SR-007
4: Lumin A1 | Audez'e King | HeadAmp GS-X mk2 |Audez'e LCD-4 | Senn HD800
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #68 - 07/29/11 at 04:18:04
 
I've never had a problem with FedEx before either, and yeah, don't get me started on UPS.

For about three years I had a UPS driver that half the time would make my wife or I sign in person for things that the shipper nor I had requested to sign for. . .I had to miss work and go home to sign and get things a day or two late, all because someone had bought the other side of my street and moved all the old houses away and built McMansions, and most of the construction workers were of Mexican descent. He hinted to me several times that he didn't trust anything on a porch on this side of the street because of "those guys." The worker were hard-working family men who would not steal something from my porch. It made me so mad! I hate racism.I called a few times and was told it was the driver's perogative and they would defer to his judgment, if he felt it was not safe, he had the right. And my calling and "inquiring" didn't help.

Anyway, he finally moved to another route and I have a great UPS driver now. Thank goodness.
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« Last Edit: 07/29/11 at 04:18:43 by Lon »  

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,ZBIT,Taboo III;PS Audio DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade spkr cbl;CambridgeAud CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt, Groovetracer upgrades+Exact2;VooDoo Cbl:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mplshade:Samson v3;Oppo PM-1;Audeze LCD2
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #69 - 07/29/11 at 14:53:43
 
Out here in the Bay Area, and my guess is elsewhere as well, the current fad is for petty thieves to follow the delivery trucks and simply help themselves to whatever they leave along the route. My boss, who lives in a fairly well-to-do neighborhood in Palo Alto, lost packages three days in a row, and even lost the replacement items the shippers sent him!

Our neighborhood is okay, but this crap can happen anywhere. I just ship everything to the office, except large bulky items of lower value (e.g, some of the large grocery items we get through Amazon, or the composter, etc.). And with vendors like Decware who charge actual shipping, I get slightly lower rates to the office, and I think the drivers on the commercial routes seem better, in part perhaps because they have a routine face-to-face relationship with their recipient staff.
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1: Merging NADAC | Merrill Audio Veritas Amps | Legacy Audio Aeris
2: MSB Select II | Mjölnir Carbon Select | Stax SR-009
3: PSA DirectStream |KGHVSS | Stax SR-007
4: Lumin A1 | Audez'e King | HeadAmp GS-X mk2 |Audez'e LCD-4 | Senn HD800
NAS: Roon on RS2416+
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #70 - 07/29/11 at 14:58:33
 
Well this was happening a few years ago in my case, and I don't have that kind of town or area. . . I'm blessed that there have been no thefts from porches or yards or houses in this neighborhood all the twenty-three years or so I've lived in this neighborhood.

The point was the driver wouldn't leave the packages because "there were Mexicans across the street." I found that very offensive then and still do! And I had to keep my wife from tearing into him verbally twice. She was less restrained and cautious than I in some manners!

Anyway, my packages are now on the truck. Should have them today.
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Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,ZBIT,Taboo III;PS Audio DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade spkr cbl;CambridgeAud CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt, Groovetracer upgrades+Exact2;VooDoo Cbl:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mplshade:Samson v3;Oppo PM-1;Audeze LCD2
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #71 - 07/29/11 at 15:17:07
 
I agree that is completely offensive. In this day and age, that should have been a matter for UPS's internal HR department.
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #72 - 07/30/11 at 02:16:00
 
Lon, Can you explain the Perfect Wave transport to me? From what I read in a Audio Advisor catalog, you more or less rip the CD into it's memory? What advantages does it have over a computer - DAC combo? I'm just trying to wrap my little mind around it. Sort of like the $2150 Bryston Music Streamer that doesn't seem to do anything that my little $650 laptop can't do. I need to stop looking at catalogs.
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #73 - 07/30/11 at 03:47:35
 
Donnie, It's complicated, and I'm not the best person to explain it. Here's a lot of information from PS Audio themselves on each of the two components of the combo:

http://www.psaudio.com/ps/products/description/perfectwave-transport?cat=

http://www.psaudio.com/ps/products/description/perfectwave-dac?cat=

Bottom line: I don't know there's probably not much that it does that your laptop "combo" doesn't. I have ZERO desire in having a laptop in my musical system. Laptops are for something else for me. I know they're perfect for many, but I don't dig using them in a music system. I love my cds, I have tons of them (possibly even LITERALLY) and I wanted to buy something that really made them shine and that I could also incorporate my video system into. This combo seems to do that very well, at least so far.

The thing that this combo does that your set up doesn't is allow the use of an I2S connection. This apparently means that the data doesn't have to undergo a  splitting and recombining. It seems to me that this makes a difference. For Redbook I've tried coupling the transport via coaxial, glass toslilnk, and I2S via HDMI, and the latter clearly sounds a bit better, more 'ease" and naturalness to the sound. Also I don't know if you can do this with your system, but the "Native" feature means that this can be a Non-oversampling DAC, or there are five over-sampling choices to use. I really so far think the non-oversampling is possibly my favorite in all three sources I'm using. There are also five different digital filters to choose from, including apodizing filters that are the latest big deals, used in the top dollar Meridian processors that seem to be a big rage. There doesn't really seem to be a huge difference so far between these but it's fun to play around with.

There's the RAM that stores a few minutes of the disc (very quickly) and helps it to become an error-free version of the disc the way EAC etc. does in your laptop. And there's a Digital Lens built into the transport as well. I remember Randy the forum demigod couldn't do without his Digital Lens for the longest time, it's a very interesting component.

So far it seems a very promising pair of components. There's a lot of breakin that has to go on between the compnents and the cabling that came with it (excellent cables!) but so far it seems to be a great sounding and versatile combo that's fun to play with and suits my needs admirably. I have to say that it made me realize one thing categorically: my Sony SCD-XA5400ES and the ZCAC-1 are VERY GOOD, GIANT-KILLING components. This combo is clearly better, but it's not an earth-shattering difference, not right now at least and in my experience most components don't change radically in break in. But I'm happy so far. The fit and finish, which I really appreciate more and more as time goes by, is excellent. There's a flexibility that seems to mean I can tailor the sound a bit more consistently than tube-rolling and so far many different types of recordings sound really good. I spent a lot of money, but I wanted to get something that will make me feel really proud and which I can use for many purposes and have fun with. So far I think I selected well.

So read the pages please, I think they'll answer your question.
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« Last Edit: 07/30/11 at 03:55:48 by Lon »  

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,ZBIT,Taboo III;PS Audio DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade spkr cbl;CambridgeAud CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt, Groovetracer upgrades+Exact2;VooDoo Cbl:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mplshade:Samson v3;Oppo PM-1;Audeze LCD2
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #74 - 07/30/11 at 04:15:18
 
Lon, I beat you to your response and Googled up way more information than I could of asked for. I see what you are talking about, lots of flexability and precision built into the system.
I also have quite a few CD's, vinyl and  hell there is a big pile of lazer discs still around here. I just got tired of the "ritual" of handling media all of the time. By the time I got a album cleaned and the turntable set up I had forgotten why I wanted to play the stupid thing. I hate to admit it, but anymore 99% of my listening is out of my Ipod/Wadia setup. Until I get my ZDAC back, pickin's are pretty slim around here. Your PS stuff sounds really cool though, a little rich for my blood right now, but sometimes the money gods smile on me. You never know.........
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #75 - 07/30/11 at 13:28:04
 
Well, I guess even though I'm not doing vinyl any longer I'm happy maybe even anchored in the ritual, the handling of the physical object. At least I'm used to for so many decades having the notion that the object leads to the sound. A file on a PC or laptop doesn't seem the same to me. I gave up on vinyl because so much of the music I wanted to explore was right there on cd and NOT on lp (lp selection in this town is pretty poor in my opinion, always had been). Cd allows me to explore almost any genre and I can transfer vinyl to cdr as well. So I've amassed a huge collection and want the very best set-up I can afford to play them back. Actually I really can't afford the PS Audio set up, sensibly I wouldn't have spent the money, but I just had the bug to complete this audio odyssey. And here I am, listening to Miles Davis and it's sounding really really good. I feel I have a system to marvel over and I'm back to exploring music again.

I can see the other side, a PC based system being so convenient and practical and not cumbersome. But. . . well I look back on my work llfe and I was happiest when I wasn't tied to a computer, and I spend probably too much time with a laptop at home as well. Music listening has always had an appeal to me because it was outside that world of computers, it was a world of its own, with it's own ritual and a different "vibe." I don't feel inclined to change that, I like my excursion into this different world, I want to be outside the PC world with music and so here I am, happy.

Good Lord I sure hope you get your ZDAC-1 back SOON!

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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #76 - 09/24/11 at 18:09:07
 
Lon wrote:
Quote:
Music listening has always had an appeal to me because it was outside that world of computers, it was a world of its own, with it's own ritual and a different "vibe." I don't feel inclined to change that, I like my excursion into this different world, I want to be outside the PC world with music and so here I am, happy.


This so resonates with me. Interestingly, even though I am able to access my NAS library through the Oppo or the PW DAC/Bridge, I am preferring the latter. I think there are two reasons for this:

1. Quality on the PW DAC is stunning, and it is audibly better than the Oppo's very good audio section.

2. Interacting with the PW DAC is more intimate than the Oppo. The Oppo puts this big display up on the screen (which I don't have to watch obviously, while listening, but I do have to use while selecting music, and it even tells me what kind of signal I have, etc.), and that big display changes something. A first, with the PW DAC, I felt confined by the tiny on-unit screen, but I have settled into interaction with either my iPhone or iPad (under iOS 5, I still have some glitchiness on the iPad), and that has restored the sense of intimacy.
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #77 - 09/24/11 at 21:59:47
 
Greg, I am so so happy you're really enjoying the PerfectWave DAC. I am really happy with its sound and its functions. And I confess I really like having the remote control of source and volume again (though I tend to get up and tailor the volume a lot varying the output from the DAC and the input volume of the Torii to get the differences of weight, dynamics, openness or richness similar to that will gets using his ZStage).

Now all I have to do is pay it off. Smiley
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #78 - 09/25/11 at 04:35:14
 
Ah yes, the paying for it part. Something my wife just now commented on. Lovingly. Really. No, I mean it.
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #79 - 10/09/12 at 18:28:53
 
With all the talk of the HR-1 speakers on the webpage and at Dec Fest I decided to move my pair from the bedroom system out into the main system. It's been some time since I've done that and the results have been interesting.

I immediately miss the spacious open sound of the ERRs that the HR-1s just don't quite duplicate. There is a lot more depth to the sound with the ERRs, and more width as well, but they aren't "rectangular" territories but rounded or less specified zones. In contrast the  HR-1s have a more compact and specific soundfield, with a more conventional compression to the image and stage, which takes a bit of getting used to for me. For small ensemble and solo instrument recordings this is actually a bit welcome. For orchestral, big band, big ensemble recordings I miss the envelopment of the ERRs, a bit.

There have been some changes since I last made a comparison, mainly in that the PS Audio PerfectWave Duo has been upgraded to Mk II and is very broken in, and that I have more of the top dollar PS Audio power cords in the system. As a result, the two speakers have come closer and closer together tonally, with the  HR-1s perhaps a bit more "warm" and a bit more macro dynamic. The ERRs are perhaps a bit more micro-dynamic. And though I am not sure what the specs will tell, the ERRs seem to be a bit more efficient--I'm having to crank the  HR-1s a bit more to get the same perceived level of sound. This may also be related to the presentation though, I may be goosing the volume a bit to compensate for the missing bits of depth and width? Not sure yet.

I'm leaving the  HR-1s in for a week and will see how I feel about bringing the ERRs back at that time. In the meantime the ERRs are sounding excellent in the bedroom system, no surprise! If I keep them there I really need to find some sort of elaborate scheme to get Bob to send me the grilles for these. Smiley They're slightly more vulnerable there in the smaller room, and I would absolutely hate for anything to happen to the drivers.

Bottom line: the  HR-1s are amazing speakers that deserve all the attention that they are getting. I'm not sure that my pair are identical to current production models, but they're I believe fairly close. They, along with the ERR show the excellence and innovation that Steve (and especially in these instances BOB!) bring to our homes and ears.
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #80 - 10/09/12 at 23:36:53
 
I compared the HR-1's to the Zen Open Baffle's with a Mini Torii and a ZCD200i through a ZDAC-1 on Saturday morning. With my music and to my ears there wasn't any comparison at all. The HR-1's were playing when I started, a couple of songs into the CD we decided to swap the speakers out to the ZOB's. I didn't even finish the song that was playing, we swapped back to the HR-1's and I was happy again.
I was on the fence before I got to hear both speakers back to back.
I really want to stress that to MY ears on MY music there was no contest, but then I play my music way too loud and it isn't what anyone would call subtle music.
So to sum up what I heard, pennys are being saved, the new motorcycle fund might be getting raided. A Koa covered HR-1 should be my next big purchase.
There might be a new contest next year with me giving away my MG944's. Only time will tell......
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #81 - 10/09/12 at 23:52:09
 
Interesting, as I've never heard a ZOB. If I had to give a quick answer to which of the two (ERR and HR-1) that I love most I'd say ERR because I just love the radial dispersion so much. It seems more natural and less "hifi" to me. But the HR-1 is the best speaker other than a Decware fully Radial design I've ever had.

I'm having a lot of fun lately when I visit my best friend's new condo (well it's his first condo, his first piece of property). He has a long rectangular living room and I gave him my RL-2 speakers, and they are just spectacular in that room. I really enjoy music and video over there now, and he's just ecstatic at the sound he has now. He has a Peachtree Audio integrated amp right now, one day he may have a Decware.
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« Last Edit: 10/09/12 at 23:52:31 by Lon »  

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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #82 - 10/10/12 at 20:43:26
 
One other observation regarding the HR-1s made while playing this week. With the grille off the Radial driver especially, they can project like electrostatic speakers I've heard. Very quick and trowing a tall image. Quite impressive.
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #83 - 10/18/12 at 01:17:03
 
Well after extensive listening and another comparison between the two speakers here's my latest summation. . . .

For Redbook, I have to say I have learned to prefer the HR-1s by a hair. The front firing driver really adds a body and solidity to the lower midrange, and the lowest bass is quite powerful in its more compact form from this speaker compared to the more diffuse sound from the ERRs.

For vinyl, the ERR have just a tiny tiny slight edge, which surprises me, but the spaciousness the ERRs bring out of vinyl is just so seductive. The HR-1s are more precise, slightly more detailed, but I just love the dimensionality from the ERR while a record spins.

For video sources, the ERR is very similar to surround sound, and I prefer the ERR to the HR-1s clearly, though the HR-1s are excellent, so clear and tight with hires sources.

Too bad I can't  really have two sets of speakers to switch back and forth on the fly in the main living space, as that would be the best situation. Both are fantastic speakers! Right now the HR-1s will stay in the system.
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #84 - 10/18/12 at 03:13:04
 
Hey Lon...I have enjoyed your comparisons of the HR-1 and ERRs. The preference for ambience and diffusion the ERRs provide makes sense in your setting and in the context of your desire to make bad recordings of good music sound as good as possible.

For me, the HR-Ones are off the charts good, but I have been tweaking them of course:-).

I think I have mentioned this before, but I think for those not aware of it, I would like to address the (sortof?) in this thread title. I am guessing that "HR-1 (sortof?)" has something to do with the HR-1s having continued to develop since yours were built. Same speaker in the main, but with modifications and refinements Bob really likes in his amazing implementation of integrating radial with a front driver transparently.

If I recall correctly, he gradually came up with several refinements, most on purpose, and some by chance. Like the newer crossover scheme separating the radials and the front woofer was apparently pretty dramatic....expanding the atmospheric ambient information, sound stage depth, width and height, and the stage saturation...overall giving a more spacious though natural and rich presentation. Perhaps closer to what you enjoy from the ERR presentation in the atmospheric information area.

There is new damping material and method for separating the top and bottom chamber; construction method improvements making for a cleaner corner and base fit; for the tweeters, there are more refined caps and I think resistors smoothing them out in a sweet way; and the passive openings have been changed a bit. This was as of my speakers, and only Bob knows if more has happened for the newly offered speaker.

It may well be that your personal preferences would still arrive at the ERR for your overall enjoyment, but for me, I am so happy with my HR-Ones that I don't even think about exploring speakers anymore. And though none of the recordings I listen to are super bad I think these would play bad recordings well. And I do like the smooth and refined clarity and focus of the speakers, presumably, in part due to the amazng implementation of the front drivers.

Actually, while listening though, I can't tell these are front firing/radial hybrids. I can't even hear the speakers, only the players. But then, I have explored refining them to my tastes/room a bit, so my thoughts may not be fully representational of the newest speaker either!

The sound though...players in the room is more the sense than ever; accurate timber; beautifully smooth detail, micro and macro; crazy good presentation of string bass and big drums...all the string strike, skin and wood present with all the space around the instruments intact in an eerily real way; piano like it is right here...an amazing triumph; strident horns like some Miles Davis stuff just sound like playing...and well recorded but still demanding horns, like Archie Shepp True ballads...reed and pads to brass and air...all crazy real and smooth. There is no doubt for me that these are an awesome example of the audio art.
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« Last Edit: 10/18/12 at 03:23:23 by will »  

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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #85 - 10/18/12 at 07:02:53
 
Thanks Lon, again great overall impressions between the two!

It seems like they are very close on some points that you're almost splitting hairs between the two.

I would be interested in hearing your comparisons between the ERRs and the newly updated HR-1s.  What we need is for Steve D to send you a new pair of HR-1s for an in depth review!   Grin

Your comparison also leads me to belive that I would prefer the HR-1's as a Center Channel in a home theater environment compared to the ERR's, where the ERRs seem like they would be quite intoxicating in 2 Channel Stereo and/or would be great as surrounds and left/right channels as well, but I tend to like my movie dialog fired directly at me in comparison to radiating.

This also has me convinced that Decware should focus on an HR-1 Center channel for movie buffs rather than having to buy pairs of speakers for the center.

Thanks again for the great review!
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« Last Edit: 10/18/12 at 07:10:57 by beowulf »  
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #86 - 10/18/12 at 11:41:44
 
will, I'm not sure where mine stands in the development process, I don't think that they are as far away from yours as earliest models may be. Regardless, what fuels the differences between the two models most is the amount of exposure the Radial driver has, and the conventional front firing driver. I think the model that would most endear itself to me would be one that incorporated the front-firing driver with a more fully exposed radial driver. I imagine that would be very hard to accomplish, but would be killer in my system. If the depth from the ERR could be woven into the presentation, that would be amazing. (It's extremely clever the integration that Bob made for this model, with a smaller radial driver mostly enclosed, and with the grilles on top directing the radiation to be closer to the front-firing radiation; the presentation is very different with the grilles removed--at least in my rooms--presenting a tall image and almost like a big electrostatic screen image, but less integrated with the front-firing driver than when the grilles are in place. I imagine integrating more radial dispersion with the front-firing would be difficult mainly because of the height and "ear level" of such a configuration, my guess is that it may be best accomplished with the front-firing driver just below a fully exposed radial driver, and the tweeter suspended above the radial driver as in the ERR. If I had skill to do so I'd experiment with that, I think I'd just go nuts for a speaker like that).

I would say that I would be perfectly happy with the HR-1s f I were not using the system as both audio AND video. For video sources the ERR simply wins out. And beowolf, I find the dialog tied to the screen with ERRs in place, and so did Pale Rider I believe; I think I'd be in heaven with 4 ERRs for surround sound if I were into surround sound and could house a system.

will, I simply never find "players in the room" to be a way that I hear music, as I have HAD players in my room and play music in my room and there's clearly a distinction, reality is reality, playback is playback. Really to my ears both sets of speakers come as close to this, with the ERR actually seeming a bit more "real" as in less "hifi" in the way that stereo reproduction highlights things that aren't really "real" like super image size and specificity, dynamics concentrated in a spot and not radiating out, etc. I still think vinyl accomplishes this realism a bit more easily than even the best digital, and I find that the ERR present playback in a more "real" way. That's ultimately important to me, as all my life I've struggled with these "hifi" attributes.*  The HR-1s have a bit of a leg up on tonal clarity and extension, which can be very good (and quite ugly with mediocre and worse recordings) and most important for Redbook cd playback, which is more challenged imo than vinyl or hires in this regard. The slight compression/concentration of the sound caused by the front-firing driver is also beneficial for Redbook. Redbook is what it is, but it isn't perfect.

* From my life experience and listening experience I think the problem is in the way that recordings are made. I actually listen to a fair amount of music from the 'teens, 'twenties and 'thirties and I believe these "hifi" attributes initially show up as limitations of the recording media and methods of the time, and that "sound" and presentation became so ingrained into records and playback that it's become the way music playback is expected to be. And these attributes became manufactured later into recordings when the media and equipment became much better, that sound was simply what was brought about on recordings as it was accepted as the sound of recorded music (and there were other, more realistic options possible, as I've proven to myself with my own rather simple recordings made on very basic equipment, and recordings that were made to be more realistic to the way music is experienced live in the air.) I grew up hearing my grandmother play the piano and organ, my grandfather and my uncle dueting on banjo and guitar, music in the church, etc. and when I came to fall in love with recorded music I just learned to live with the departure from reality that "hifi" brings, but I always wanted a more real presentation. The Radial speakers from Decware were the first move away from "hifi" to a more realistic sound that I've found, and they stole my heart. When paired with recordings made with an ear towards a more realistic sound they're amazing, and they breathe depth and a closer sound to that of the live experience into more conventional recordings. Big praise from me to Steve and Bob for exploring and offering these type of speakers.
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« Last Edit: 10/18/12 at 14:14:39 by Lon »  

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,ZBIT,Taboo III;PS Audio DMP+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 pcs,Mapleshade spkr cbl;CambridgeAud CXU;Rega RP3,TTPSU,wh belt, Groovetracer upgrades+Exact2;VooDoo Cbl:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mplshade:Samson v3;Oppo PM-1;Audeze LCD2
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #87 - 10/18/12 at 14:17:29
 
beowulf wrote on 10/18/12 at 07:02:53:
Thanks Lon, again great overall impressions between the two!

It seems like they are very close on some points that you're almost splitting hairs between the two.

I would be interested in hearing your comparisons between the ERRs and the newly updated HR-1s.  What we need is for Steve D to send you a new pair of HR-1s for an in depth review!   Grin

Your comparison also leads me to belive that I would prefer the HR-1's as a Center Channel in a home theater environment compared to the ERR's, where the ERRs seem like they would be quite intoxicating in 2 Channel Stereo and/or would be great as surrounds and left/right channels as well, but I tend to like my movie dialog fired directly at me in comparison to radiating.

This also has me convinced that Decware should focus on an HR-1 Center channel for movie buffs rather than having to buy pairs of speakers for the center.

Thanks again for the great review!


b, I don't think I have the heart and stamina to live through another speaker break-in period, so I'm not eager to hear another HR-1 right now. Smiley  I suspect that the fully broken in newer model would still not fundamentally change my impressions as it's the extent of radial dispersion between the two designs that defines them most to my ears.

And as I noted above I do find that the dialog is centered on the screen very nicely in two channel use of the ERRs with my DVR and Blu-ray players. I'm not sure I would need a center channel (though I'm less experienced with surround sound, and confess that I've never really heard a surround sound system that I felt warranted the cost of all the extra channels).
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« Last Edit: 10/18/12 at 16:20:29 by Lon »  

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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #88 - 10/18/12 at 16:29:09
 
Lon,

My HR-1s sound very, very close to the same with the grill and top piece that surrounds the radial driver off as on. In other words, after removing the two top parts leaving the radial rising out of the top chamber. From this, I am guessing the combination of modifications in mine might have done something similar to what you would like from the HR-1...integrating the radial more into the presentation. But I can only go from my experience compared to your description, and from my (hopefully well remembered) dialog with Bob as my speakers were being built and tested.

I too have played a lot of music (mostly acoustic) and off and on delving into recording. And I think I get what you are talking about...the difference between straight up players in a room and recorded player. But I definitely get a sense of players in the room from my system, though often from within the context of all the stuff that you can do with recording...different mic sounds and techniques, compression, reverbs, amps, etc. The difference may be a semantic thing, as it appears close to impossible to have a loudspeaker/amp arrangement sound exactly like acoustic player in the same room, but this is part of why I like my system...for the most part it sounds better with the oomph of the stereo system behind the music to me. Only in amazing rooms have I experienced live music as engaging as my system. Most rooms just don't make players sound that good. So, I like well recorded music and how we can bring out the best of the instrument by mic techniques and studio rooms and treatments, that is as long as it respects the inherent qualities of the voices or instruments.

With my speakers, there is no sense of the sound being different from the movie screen. And I don't quite know what high-fi means, but imagine it has something to do with hyped presentation??? Or maybe what I am describing above is "hifi." But to me, with good recordings mine just sound like beautifully recorded instruments in my room giving a very visceral sense of all the nuance of the voice or instrument in this room space...very real sounding close and extended ambience defining the later spacial placement, and the engulfing sweetness, bathed in the sound thanks to great room, source, amplification and loudspeakers. There are of course almost always little bits that don't make it to the recording well, but for the most part, within this, my system/room nails it for me.

With recordings with decent sound stage, it never feels too big or hyped, but just about right. Maybe it is source and system tuning, maybe it is room (which I am sure has loads to do with what a system can pull from recordings) and I suspect from all our posts, that I may have more detail integrated into my sound...a critical aspect of soundstage and visceral response to the music's sense of "real" to me. I go for just enough to define sound stage, air and presence, while not leaving hard edges on things...balanced sound with layered depth of inner detail. With my source arrangement, the super fine harmonic details and textures are present without harsh edges, bringing out what I refer to as detail layers,  and love this.  

So who knows, but as far as written explanations can convey...I would guess our HR-1's probably sound a lot alike, but also perhaps different in subtle qualities of presentation. Just playing with caps and resistors on mine made a big difference in refinement of sound to tastes, and damping made a big difference again for serious listening, so the mods Bob has made could be notable in our critical listening mode. But not having both to listen too.......

Wink

Have fun!

Will
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« Last Edit: 10/18/12 at 16:32:31 by will »  

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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #89 - 10/18/12 at 16:38:26
 
I doubt that they sound that different will. I clearly hear, in every room and every system that I have ever heard in other homes and showrooms, that there is a distinct difference between recorded and live music that prohibits me from saying that "players are in the room." I can say that the presentation can be extremely faithful to the recording, but a recording is a recording and in no sense is a player in the room. No amount of modifying the HR-1 is going to change this. It may be just semantics, but I can't ever say that, it's just not true. Just me, others can say that, I can't. One of my audio oddball things, I just accept that others use that term as well as I can. Smiley

"Hifi" are attributes that distance the presentation from a real and natural sound, all recorded sound is "hifi" to me in that sense, it's a pet term of mine. The ERR presentation sounds a bit more real and natural to me. I think it's because it presents things in a more diffuse pattern which mimics the way sound from performers in real space does, compared to the more conventional sound of the HR-1 dispersion. In that sense I view the HR-1 as more "hifi" and the ERR as a move in the direction of natural sound. If you could live with ERRs for a time I think you'd understand the distinction I am feeling. (This ties back to how I view recorded sound through history; "hifi" is quite standard fare for recordings unfortunately).

I think we're basically on the same page.

As for sound with the grilles off, I would doubt there's that big a difference, and perhaps the difference is mostly descriptive. But in my case there is less integration of the sound with the grilles off, and a change in the radiation pattern that makes a less convincing presentation for me, a higher image.

Anyway, glad you love yours. I love mine too. They're not magic, can't bring three dimensional beings with real sound into my home, but I can't expect them to. I love the ERRs too, I'm really conflicted as both do something integrally more preferable than the other though both have great similarities. And both are great speakers.
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« Last Edit: 10/18/12 at 16:59:31 by Lon »  

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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #90 - 10/18/12 at 16:58:23
 
Lon, I don't mean to say the HR-1 differences are responsible for what I call a sense of players in the room, though I think they contribute to this. My MG944s did it for me too, but the HR-1s do it with refinement to the timbre, smoothness, and realism.

I think our difference of opinion of the engaging aspect of the sense of a player in the room is a different matter than the question over whether the speakers you are talking about, are not exactly what Bob is producing now. This is the main point to me, that you making very careful comparisons on the speakers as if they were the same, and maybe they are not all that different, but maybe they are.

And here it can be semantic too. You and I both can go on about subtle cable differences... in one mind they can be huge and in another subtle.
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« Last Edit: 10/18/12 at 17:00:12 by will »  

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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #91 - 10/18/12 at 17:25:58
 
Yes, our differences are about the use of the phrase "players in the room." I've seen it used over and over again in audio as some sort of literal thing and I just can't ever say it happens for me. Not even with expanded mind! Smiley I know what people mean, but taken literally it's just never true for me and I can't say it.

I'm trying to describe the differences between the HR-1 and ERR that I have, and I think the differences would stand as clearly delineated no matter what "version" of HR-1 I have. When I first got the HR-1 I mentioned the differences that I heard with the grilles off and I remember Bob noting he didn't really notice a difference. I do. So maybe it's room dependent, but I do, and so did the other pair of ears I trust locally, my friend trumpeter Dave Laczko. I don't think it's differences in versions as Bob didn't hear it. Maybe set up, source, cabling, power, room? I don't know. It's quite distinct.

Anyway, I'm done talking about the sound. Back to listening!
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« Last Edit: 10/18/12 at 17:58:36 by Lon »  

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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #92 - 04/08/13 at 04:15:12
 
I have a pair of HR-1s on order, but after my latest experiment I am rethinking this. While doing some room sweeps with the DSPeaker, and staring at my custom servo subs and my ERRs, I realized the base of the ERRs and the top of the subs are virtually identical in size, and the angle of the cabinets is likewise almost identical. Although the subs were built to match visually with the ERRs, it turns out the builder did not intentionally match them this closely. So, I tried something as indicated in the attached pic [sorry for the quality; daughter's phone]. I plopped the ERRs on top of the subs, and all I can say is the effect is amazing, and not just to me, but to at least two musician friends, who insist, like me, the soundstage imaging is much improved.

And after running a couple of more sweeps, I have to say the 2-channel imaging is extraordinary. Bob wrote me today to describe some of his latest listening with the most recent HR-1s he built, and his description sounds divine, but what I have going now, especially with an extremely well-matched room/amplitude curve, is itself fairly breathtaking. Lon, that Trinity Revisited recording of Blue Moon is spell-binding.
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« Last Edit: 04/08/13 at 04:15:58 by Pale Rider »  

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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #93 - 04/08/13 at 11:28:22
 
Wow, interesting. I've not been that crazy in the past about a tweeter level that high, but it should be addressed in a case by case basis. If it saves you the money of the HR-1s, that's way cool. Keep us posted!
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #94 - 04/08/13 at 14:12:28
 
Yeah, Lon, me either. I was surprised by several things: (1) the better-than-expected vertical dispersion of the tweeter (I already knew it was decent from above, because when I stood, the speakers still had excellent high frequency performance and imaging, so on reflection, it was less surprising that the vertical dispersion should also be effective downward; (2) the eeriness of the appearance of strong, almost-visible instruments and musicians in front of a large block of wood (something I have experienced before with good tower speakers); and (3) the lack of any holes in the image.

I was not looking to save the expense of the HR-1, and I have not canceled my order yet, and still may not. But it is making me think. I have had a number of systems with very effective bass over the years (including an amazing pair of isobarikally loaded dual subs, built with Dynaudio drivers and playing beneath 6-foot ribbon towers), and I have had systems without. Getting the bass right here is huge. Paul McGowan makes this point often over at PSA. My current subs were built using Rhythmik Audio amps and servo woofers. McGowan recommends servos, as did my builder, and these were built to be as fast as possible to integrate well with the ERRs, and they do. I will see if I can post the before/after freq sweeps, because it is interesting to see what has been achieved in my room, with the combo of the ERRs and the subs, and the "management" of them by the DSPeaker.
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #95 - 04/08/13 at 14:52:19
 
I'm not really surprised that it is working out. I have no personal in room experience with subwoofers, multi-channel, etc. and I found that with two ERR the bass in this room is great. But the HR-1 have even better bass, and the tweeter is a bit higher and that (and the front-firing driver) add more specific and conventional imaging and directional sound. I actually like the ERR complete sound a bit better, but other listeners in my room prefer the HR-1 == in part because they find dialog easier to hear (they have a bit of hearing challenges compared to me) and also because they are used to the more conventional presentation elements within the HR-1 presentation.

An ERR on top of a subwoofer would be introducing a stronger bass and an elevated tweeter position, similar to the HR-1 presentation, so I can see that this would be quite interesting.

Of late, with the addition of the PS Audio PerfectWave PowerBases and recent rectifier changes to the Torii I have what I think is very accurate and dynamic bass with the HR-1s and don't feel the need for Mid Bass Modules or sub-woofers and I'm enjoying sound like never before. I'll probably put the ERRs back in before I pack up the system in a week or so, and I'm really curious to hear how things will be in my new home in Ohio.

Keep us posted! Always interested to hear how your system is developing.
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #96 - 04/08/13 at 15:15:29
 
Yeah, it is a bit visually "disruptive," but it is working so far. Sometimes, I have to close my eyes and not look at the tower, and that's when the soundstage is readily apparent. And on some of the finer BluRay audio discs, all channels are just amazing.

Interesting comment about dialogue and the ERRs. I think you are correct about this. We tried my system with no center speaker, using only phantom center. And both young and old agreed that dialogue was difficult to discern. Bob suggested the HR-1s would have much less difficulty presenting a credible phantom center channel. We then tried restoring one ERR [remember, my center ERR tweeters are rear-firing], and this restored proper center channeling, and made dialogue much easier. Of course, with the volume control on the SE84ZS, and decent home theater speaker management, I have the flexibility to adjust the volume, but a center ERR was a necessity with the others. My next experiment is to flip the tweeter to forward firing and see what impact that has. One of the beauties of the ERR, is that the rear-firing effect tends to make dialogue and other center effects track beautifully across a large screen. So, will see if the forward-firing is too directional.

Looking forward to hearing about your system in its new home.
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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #97 - 04/08/13 at 16:31:46
 
Pale Rider,

I am wondering if you have tried to sort out how much of your sound stage improvements can be attributed to the DSpeaker, and how much to the tower arrangement. The way you describe it, sounds like how I might describe mine...stable and saturated player locations, height, width, depth, and spacial relationships giving players a sense of being in a real room. But most of all, it is so captivating to hear players sound so present and real, to be so naturally located and integrated with one another, and to have some of them through and outside the walls of the room. Then there is the ambience.......

To get this refined took some serious room/system management trying for that fine line balance of realistic bass, a rich midrange, and just enough detail to really dial in the soundstage. The bass is pretty amazing now, but after doing all the room treatment I can get together without being obnoxious in the living room, it is an ongoing process that to most might be pretty tedious..adjusting specific eq frequencies, Q's, and cuts in Pure Music as new resonance flaws show up from new recordings. They say this can't be done by ear, but I think it has worked very well, though it has taken a lot of time. I do wonder though, what your magic box would do, and how much easier it would do it!

Tweeter placement is not standard here either, my HR-1s (placed close together, only 46" inside plinth to inside plinth) sound best toed slightly out...just slightly. You literally can't get any sense of the speakers putting the music in the room location-wise...they sit there appearing to do nothing. Though most recordings are naturally narrower, the player part of the soundstage can go beyond the width of our main living area...30 some feet wide, and maybe 15 feet deep on good recordings. "Normal" toe in reduces the stage considerably and makes the speakers more obvious. So your quirky, high tweeter placement really working well does not surprise me.

Anyway, if you get some time, I would love to hear more about the DSpeaker influence on your sound in general, and what part you think it plays in the soundstage improvements.
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« Last Edit: 04/08/13 at 16:46:30 by will »  

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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #98 - 04/08/13 at 17:59:53
 
Greg, I actually don't have problem myself with dialog with the ERR, I love how the voices stand in the air and they seem positioned across my (smaller, 40") screen well. Those who have trouble with the ERR have some hearing issues (one tinnitus, two age related hearing loss) that I don't have (had my ears tested recently, quite good hearing).

They are also persons who use their tv speakers for sound at home, and everything is presented so differently that way!

And again, I'm only dealing with 2 channel, which I imagine makes a difference from 5.1 or 7.1.

The HR-1 does present voices in a way that they hear more easily, and also over time they've adapted to the sound of the voices on my system a bit more.
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« Last Edit: 04/08/13 at 18:20:00 by Lon »  

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Re: ERR and HR-1 (sortof?)/IT Radial comparisons
Reply #99 - 04/08/13 at 19:41:47
 
@Lon, remember that I have that big gaping screen in between the speakers, plus the two ZRACKs of components, and so, while I am not sure I would say dialogue was difficult to discern without the center channel [interestingly, it was my children and girlfriend who said that most, while I, tinnitus and all, had the least difficulty with the phantom center channel], I would say that it was decidedly different, and less "direct." But I also have that experience you describe, and in my case, on 5.1, part of it relates to the rear-firing ERR. These big towers now look even more inert and inactive, like they have nothing to do with the sound hanging in the mid-air. I like the way my girlfriend put it: "I can tell where everything is, but I cannot tell where it is coming from."

@will, I did skip a step here, one that I plan to post over in my thread in Home Theater. The DSPeaker difference was very nearly night and day, even before I created the "Ziegler Tower." This was true with and without the subs in circuit. The ERRs, before the DSPeaker, were very very good, though a tad bass-shy. With the DSPeaker, the bass curve falloff was smoothed, and imaging was improved.

But with a single sub in circuit [a 2.1 configuration], the full sense of depth was very impressive. And the bass is deep and tighter than a, well, that can go unsaid. Switching to a 2.2 configuration was even better, because I got the benefit of a deeper image, especially on the right side of the orchestra. But choosing to treat the subs as not subs, but extensions of the ERRs, and setting the DSPeaker for 2.0 was best of all. And it is when I did that that I got the idea of sticking the ERRs on top of the subs [subs have been in the house for months; shows how dense I can be]. And the combo of the vertical height [which works very well for creating a broad soundstage across the monitor], and the bass control/room control, was just amazing. To your point Will, the system was already sounding good by virtue of the DSPeaker. The tower was an improvement, but not as much as the other. The depth and speed of incredibly taut bass is a real jaw-dropper, and the integration of that into the freq curve, while adjusting it for the room, makes all the difference I think..

I have to say I will not run my system without something like the DSPeaker in it. I am not sure I am prepared to boot my PWD/Lumin/Ultra combo for the DSPeaker, as one reviewer said, in part because it cannot handle all the hi-res I play, but I will say that its presence in the system is the single biggest improvement since I drank the Decware Kool-Aid.
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