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Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes (Read 22635 times)
Pale Rider
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Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
06/12/11 at 17:58:43
 
I noticed that Steve offers a quad of the Shuguang 6CA7-Z Treasures as an option on the Torii Mk III. Has anyone ordered these or heard them in their Torii? They get great reviews in other amplifiers, and cryo'ed Winged C SEDs are pushing up into their price range. My big question is whether the Shuguang is an actual EL34 for Hazen Grid purposes. Thanks!
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Pale Rider
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #1 - 06/12/11 at 18:58:36
 
Just so my question is clear, this piece is on the Tori Mk III page:
Quote:
The TORII uses the famous EL34  / 6CA7 output tube which is the only popular audio tube with all it's grids separately connected.  This means the TORII has complete control over each of these grids and can for lack of a better phrase - Have it's way with them.  The result is a mid-range transparency and better sense of timing not obtainable with anything else. 

I read this as saying that the Shuguang will activate the Hazen Grid.
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Rivieraranch
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #2 - 06/13/11 at 03:11:22
 
Unless I am mistaken the EL34 is the European designation for an American 6CA7.
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Pale Rider
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #3 - 06/13/11 at 03:24:46
 
RR, seems you are spot on.
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datman
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #4 - 06/13/11 at 05:31:22
 
I had my Torii III built a year ago with Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z tubes and can say they sound magnificent.  All of the characteristic midrange purity with superb performance at the extremes complements of the Hazen Grid mod. I now think the Shuguangs are the best 6CA7/EL34 currently available.
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Pale Rider
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #5 - 06/13/11 at 13:52:27
 
Thanks much datman. I have read nothing but good about these. I plan to order two quads but to break in my Toriis with V-caps in with the stock. Did you get V-Caps in yours?

UPDATE 20110613: Shuguangs ordered. Two quads. The Grant Fidelity/Audio For Less folks are great. I have already received my Purolator shipping notice less than two hours later. And as of the morning of 20110614, the tubes have left Calgary.
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« Last Edit: 06/14/11 at 14:38:53 by Pale Rider »  

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Pale Rider
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #6 - 06/13/11 at 13:56:44
 
By the way, this post over at Steve Hoffman mentions the Shuguangs and Jeff's evolving impressions of the amp.
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datman
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #7 - 06/13/11 at 18:35:23
 
No VCAPS. I figure the caps Steve uses in his amps are what he considers audiophile grade. This is more than good enough for me. The one upgrade I did do is to use ceramic tube sockets for longevity.
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« Last Edit: 06/13/11 at 18:36:06 by datman »  

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Pale Rider
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #8 - 06/13/11 at 18:51:59
 
Hey datman, any chance of seeing a pic of your Torii? I am betting those black Shuguangs look pretty slick.

I don't disagree with you on the quality of caps selected by Steve. I purchased the V-cap option in part for that "quest for elusive perfection," but also because I have been pleased with whatever contribution they made in my Taboo, and I thought that if and when the dire day might come when I have to part with my Torii, the resell value would be good.

FWIW, I do not plan to ever resell. I genuinely see me passing these on to children.
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« Last Edit: 06/13/11 at 21:07:16 by Pale Rider »  

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Pale Rider
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #9 - 06/17/11 at 00:22:08
 
Been watching the painful delivery progress of my tubes. Grant Fidelity shipped them promptly, but this online report makes me hope they are packed very, very well [note in inverse order]:

2011-06-16      10:25 AM      Departure via ROSEBURG, OR, US depot      
2011-06-16      08:05 AM      Arrived at via ROSEBURG, OR, US depot      
2011-06-16      04:09 AM      Departure via PORTLAND, OR, US depot      
2011-06-16      03:16 AM      Arrived at via PORTLAND, OR, US depot      
2011-06-15      11:04 PM      Departure via SEATTLE, WA, US depot      
2011-06-15      05:35 PM      Arrived at via SEATTLE, WA, US depot      
2011-06-15      05:25 PM      Departure via SEATTLE, WA, US depot      
2011-06-15      04:43 PM      Departure via SEATTLE, WA, US depot      
2011-06-15      03:45 PM      Import via SEATTLE, WA, US depot      
2011-06-15      09:30 AM      Arrived at via SEATTLE, WA, US depot      
2011-06-15      01:20 AM      Departure via RICHMOND, BC, CA depot      
2011-06-15      12:52 AM      Departure via RICHMOND, BC, CA depot      
2011-06-14      08:34 PM      Export via RICHMOND, BC, CA depot      
2011-06-14      01:41 PM      Arrived at via RICHMOND, BC, CA depot      
2011-06-14      02:50 AM      Departure via CALGARY, AB, CA depot      
2011-06-13      09:50 PM      Export via CALGARY, AB, CA depot      
2011-06-13      06:45 PM      Export via CALGARY, AB, CA depot      
2011-06-13      06:35 PM      Arrived For Export Processing via CALGARY, AB depot      
2011-06-13      03:29 PM      Picked up by Purolator at Reception from Grant Fidelity at CALGARY, AB via CALGARY, AB depot      
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Lon
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #10 - 06/17/11 at 00:36:26
 
They're going to be fine!
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Pale Rider
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #11 - 06/17/11 at 00:41:19
 
Cool
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Pale Rider
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #12 - 06/17/11 at 21:47:23
 
They are on the local delivery truck. Should have them soon. Cannot wait to plug them into brand new Toriis. In the meantime, when they arrive, I will just stare at them, like some old lecher in South Beach.
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Pale Rider
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #13 - 06/17/11 at 21:48:24
 
Dang, if they sound half as good as they look, this will be fun:


A few more:

Box

Tubeset

Individual Tube
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« Last Edit: 06/17/11 at 21:54:26 by Pale Rider »  

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Lon
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #14 - 06/17/11 at 21:56:27
 
Man. . those cost too much! But they're pretty.
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Lon
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #15 - 06/17/11 at 21:57:26
 
Will be interesting to hear what Steve might say about them.
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Pale Rider
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #16 - 06/17/11 at 22:06:01
 
They so cost too much, Lon. You are completely correct. Like great wine, first class to Asia, and mistakes you hope you won't repeat. But man oh man, once in a while, you just have to treat yourself. Shuguangs on top of V-Caps...................[and Steve is selling them, too, of course.]
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« Last Edit: 06/17/11 at 22:07:17 by Pale Rider »  

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Lon
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #17 - 06/17/11 at 22:16:45
 
I fully understand. . . I've been treating myself far too much when I should stop. . . bought myself another guitar, a Martin D-15S, was too cheap to pass up and a lovely guitar now only made in the custom line. Love the 15 series, I have the smallest, an 00-15, until now my only acoustic guitar.

My one trepidation is. . . I've never found yet a tube made in China that I really liked, though I've only tried Ruby and Valve Art, but they were disappointing in comparison with US and European tubes. But. .  I'm sure these are awesome. Can't wait to hear reports.
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Pale Rider
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #18 - 06/17/11 at 22:28:08
 
One of my colleagues is a Conrad-Johnson owner. He thought they looked gorgeous, but said the same thing: "Chinese? Really" I pointed him to the reviews, including this one, which I found quite entertaining [though of a different tube], likewise here and here, and this one, the reviews on the site, the 6 Moons review, etc. And the fact that Steve sells them as an upgrade gave me some comfort I wasn't taking too much of a chance.
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Lon
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #19 - 06/17/11 at 22:58:50
 
I read that review when posted earlier. .. I agree that it's a promising review.

I can't see myself ordering them for some time to come, but who knows, maybe one day! I'll stick with Winged C and Mullard reissues til then,
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Pale Rider
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #20 - 06/17/11 at 23:09:58
 
I hear ya!  I've got plenty of much more modestly priced tubes that I am loving on. Right now, I just swapped between the stock SV83s and the cryo'ed military CP15P-EV in my Taboo. At first, I wasn't sure I heard a big difference, but the stock SV83 seem a little more forward with a bit tubbier [though pleasant] bass. I paid $3 apiece for 11 of them from a fellow forum member. Can't beat that with a stick.
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kana813
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #21 - 06/18/11 at 18:38:51
 
Pale Rider,

Did you hear the TORII Mk.3 before you ordered two of them with V-Caps?
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Pale Rider
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #22 - 06/18/11 at 19:03:33
 
Quote:
Did you hear the TORII Mk.3 before you ordered two of them with V-Caps?

kana813, I did not.
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kana813
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #23 - 06/18/11 at 19:50:12
 
Gee, two V-Cap TORIIs that can't be returned and two sets of Shuguangs, that's a very big leap of faith.

I'm not as confident, so I ordered the stock version. Plus, if I was going to upgrade the caps, I'd rather have Auri-Ts.
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Lon
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #24 - 06/18/11 at 20:07:31
 
That is a big leap of faith. PR has had a Taboo though, and once you have a Zen amp, you believe that another Zen amp could be da bomb.

I think he's going to love the amps, without any doubt.

Hope you both manage to get yours PDQ!
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« Last Edit: 06/18/11 at 20:10:28 by Lon »  

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Pale Rider
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #25 - 06/18/11 at 20:25:33
 
Lon said it. Three things factor into my confidence: (1) the passion and goals/theory of the designer; (2) the enthusiasm of other customers; (3) my experience with the Taboo (which has V-caps), that validated #1 and #2.

So, when Steve offers the V-caps and the Treasures as the only "real" upgrades on the Torii, and his pricing for them is also very reasonable, that speaks persuasively to me. I ordered the former with the amp build, of course, while I ordered the Shuguangs separately after doing more research and knowing I had plenty of time before the Toriis arrive.

As for the Auri-Ts, to each their own; one reason it is a great hobby. But given my confidence in Steve's voicing of the amps, I am comfortable with the V-caps. Plus, while I have plenty of experience soldering and building, I have no desire to open up a Torii and swap caps myself. The V-caps were the only real way to go for me.
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Lon
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #26 - 06/18/11 at 21:10:04
 
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Pale Rider
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #27 - 06/18/11 at 21:13:56
 
Hey Lon, thanks for that link. I had missed that one. I especially enjoyed the recommendation of the "recording issued by Tone-Pearls Records in Ireland: Chopin and Debussy: Piano Music in a Church performed solo by the Hungarian born musician Endre Hegedus." Ordered the DVD of the higher-res files.
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« Last Edit: 06/18/11 at 21:29:39 by Pale Rider »  

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Pale Rider
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #28 - 06/18/11 at 23:18:18
 
Lon, you may be interested in this: based on the rec in one of the reviews (i.e., that the purported grading of STs by some oline retailers is baloney), I decided to order a set of the STs from a Chinese reseller on fleabay. They are much cheaper there. I plan to test them in my B&K when they get here. My own inverse version of dollar cost averaging. Wink
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Lon
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #29 - 06/19/11 at 00:12:57
 
Cool. Keep me posted how they test out, and whether they match well etc.  I did read that in that one review and wonder.
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kana813
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #30 - 06/19/11 at 03:25:08
 
PR,
I admire your commitment.

Hopefully, we'll both get our amps this month.





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Pale Rider
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #31 - 06/19/11 at 04:13:32
 
k, did Steve share what number in queue you are? He told me I was 8 out of 54, I believe.
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kana813
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #32 - 06/19/11 at 04:43:39
 
I didn't get a number, but I spoke to Sarah last week and she said my amp could be ready to ship on 6/24.
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Pale Rider
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #33 - 06/19/11 at 05:21:15
 
Cool. Congrats. What base did you get?
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #34 - 06/19/11 at 05:52:14
 
Walnut.

If I keep the amp, I'll have a custom base made from Ohai or Bubinga.
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #35 - 06/19/11 at 13:27:47
 
Nice woods. So, right now, you ordered it with the standard base? The black figured one, or modern walnut?
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #36 - 06/21/11 at 03:04:23
 
Hi All,

I've researched the Treasures many times recently and am still "on the fence"....here's my reasoning:

When I got my Torii III (with V-Caps and attenuator option), I felt like I upgraded for things that would last for a long while. I've posted previously about my thoughts on the amp. The thing that I was most unsure about was how the Winged C's would perform. After break-in (1000 plus hours for the V-Caps), I was smitten. Just to make sure that I was mentally attached to my "inner stereo self", I did an A/B with some RFT EL34's. The result was that they were "different". No clear winner, just different. And NO I'm not getting into a tube review. But the supplied Winged C's were a lot cheaper than the RFT's.

So I guess I'm waiting for either someone to knock me out of the tree, or bring me up some food regarding the Treasures.

I still believe that this amp is the true "don't wake me, I"m dreaming" bargain in audio with the current output tubes Steve provides. He does his homework and voices his equipment beautifully.





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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #37 - 06/21/11 at 03:23:33
 
Steve's been shipping with JJs, which I'm sure are very good as well in the Torii; I've used them in the Integrated and the SE34 Monoblocks to great success.

I really like the Winged Cs as well, it's a great tube in the Torii. I don't doubt that the Treasures are great. . . but right now, til I go to work again, they're out of my price range. Anyoone want to give me a job wiht an outrageous salary? Smiley
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #38 - 06/21/11 at 03:30:50
 
C.E.: you won't get any argument from me about how you see it. From everything I have read, the Torii is extraordinary. And I bet it doesn't need any upgrades to sound extraordinary. Still, as I mentioned earlier, Steve offers two upgrades that could impact sonics. I decided to try them both.
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #39 - 06/21/11 at 03:35:39
 
Pale,

Ok...maybe I was hoping that you'd get some Winged C's as well and give us some comments?....

How close are you on delivery?
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #40 - 06/21/11 at 04:05:18
 
I think the Torii ships with JJs, but I have some SEDs as well. I plan to break the Toriis in with stock, and then switch to the STs.

I am not sure where I am in queue. I think Bob is trying to prioritize a number of different builds, including my cherry bases.
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #41 - 06/24/11 at 23:33:38
 
PR, have you heard any status on your amps?
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« Last Edit: 06/25/11 at 05:22:59 by kana813 »  
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #42 - 06/25/11 at 00:05:52
 
I think Bob has to find a way to fit my cherry bases into his workflow. I believe the Ultra is built, and the Toriis may be as well.

I got my other Treasures today. Plan to test them next week. They don't come in the fancy box, and they have a paper label on the base, but otherwise they look identical.
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #43 - 06/25/11 at 00:35:41
 
Pale.... Squeeze I did. Finish wasn't dry enough to ship today, but they will go out on Monday. As far as I know both Torii's are done along with the Ultra.

Steve told me to take a break from speakers and get on the amp bases. He had a ton of customs, which I did them all. I even did the cherry for you ZS so he won't have to wait on me again.

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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #44 - 06/25/11 at 00:52:25
 
Who appointed the Shuguang Company as the holy grail of high priced tubes? I frankly am skeptical about the whole deal. I believe that the Russians and U.S. NOS will be superior to the Chinese stuff.
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« Last Edit: 06/25/11 at 00:52:48 by Rivieraranch »  

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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #45 - 06/25/11 at 01:56:01
 
Rivieraranch, I might be the person that appointed the Shuguand Co. the Holy Grail. I got behind in my paperwork and just signed everything thrust in front of me with out reading everything over. Sorry, next time I will do my due dilligence. You don't want to ask how the "Great Recession" really started, lets just say I won't ever dump a Pepsi on my desk again.
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #46 - 06/25/11 at 02:13:15
 
Bob: that is outstanding news. Thanks much. I can only imagine how many extra hours you had to pump into your schedule. Much, much appreciated.

RR: I don't know that anyone appointed Shuguang the holy grail, but I do know that, if you read those reviews, it is very clear that some people think the Treasures give the best NOS a run for their money. The specific bet you are making has been called by some. And as noted before, Decware itself offers them as the tube kit upgrade for the Toriis. For me, that made it worth the try.

Donnie, at last I know the truth. Knowing who to blame is huge. Wink
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« Last Edit: 06/25/11 at 16:53:25 by Pale Rider »  

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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #47 - 06/25/11 at 05:31:53
 
PR, looks like you'll be enjoying your new amps by this time next week.

Heard today that mine is being built. Cool
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #48 - 06/25/11 at 16:52:17
 
Congrats kana. Am keeping my fingers crossed about delivery. Not sure they will be here before the holiday, but it's still all good, because I did not expect anything before mid-July. Lets see, three months ago, I owned zero Decware amps. Next month, four.
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« Last Edit: 06/25/11 at 16:57:31 by Pale Rider »  

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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #49 - 06/25/11 at 17:51:45
 
Hey . . . you're almost caught up with me. I own five. Though the first, the 27th Zen amp built, I might never get back from a friend who has "borrowed" it six years or so ago. . .:)
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #50 - 06/25/11 at 18:11:19
 
Six years of borrowing is illegal in some places!
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #51 - 07/01/11 at 14:18:31
 
Looks like the first of my Toriis is about to be on its way. Hooray!
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #52 - 07/01/11 at 16:03:16
 
Congrats!   Smiley
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« Last Edit: 07/01/11 at 16:04:34 by Lon »  

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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #53 - 07/01/11 at 19:23:58
 
PR,

I saw your amp was packed on amp waiting list Steve sent out yesterday.

Your other TORII shows "waiting on part."

Mine shows "on bench."

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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #54 - 07/01/11 at 20:12:38
 
Interesting, thanks kana. I saw Steve's note that said my amp status had been updated, but I received no list attached to it, and I could see no way to determine what that status change was.

I suspect the "waiting on part" is a reference to a transformer.
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« Last Edit: 07/02/11 at 00:08:42 by Pale Rider »  

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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #55 - 07/02/11 at 00:42:32
 
Here is a link to the list... it is a .PDF file updated in real time.

https://creatorexport.zoho.com/decwarehighfidelity/decware/pdf/Amplifier_Waiting...

This is the link that is sent out in the status messages.

Thanks,

Steve
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #56 - 07/02/11 at 00:46:17
 
Thanks much Steve. Odd how it didn't come through with your emails. An awful lot of nice Decware on that list. Good stuff.

Happy 4th!
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« Last Edit: 07/02/11 at 04:37:08 by Pale Rider »  

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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #57 - 07/06/11 at 20:49:58
 
The first of my Toriis shipped today, along with three new Decware power cords.

Separately, I did my first tests of the two groups of Shuguang tubes I bought. The tubes tested almost identically, or at least, in the first two tests I ran, before I managed to idiotically break off a center guide pin on one of the tubes in the test socket. Sigh. Fortunately, it was one of the cheaper tubes, though that distinction may not matter a lot. OTOH, maybe it broke off because it was a cheaper tube. Dunno.
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #58 - 07/06/11 at 22:18:37
 
Congrats on the amp finally shipping!

Sorry about the tube. It could still work?
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #59 - 07/06/11 at 22:30:27
 
Actually, I think the tube still could work just fine. It tests fine. I could try to repair it, or simply mark the base with the center pin key location.
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #60 - 07/06/11 at 23:30:07
 
I thought it would, I had one in a guitar amp that was broken that way and it worked, the only danger being pinning it wrong. . . .
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #61 - 07/07/11 at 15:36:36
 
Brent tells me he sees this problem with modern tubes not fitting old sockets well, especially in the Chinese tubes. He recommended some socket savers from Antique Electronic Supply. I ordered a few and will leave them installed in the tester.
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #62 - 07/09/11 at 01:15:01
 
PR, Sorry if I missed it, but can you post a link or company name where you bought the less costly tubes?
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« Last Edit: 07/09/11 at 01:16:15 by will »  

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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #63 - 07/09/11 at 04:37:35
 
Will, I bought my third quad on fleabay. Here is a current auction for two. Hope that helps.

Greg
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #64 - 07/09/11 at 07:28:39
 
Thanks Greg, Have you looked at this?

http://shuguangtreasure.com/wordpress/2010/12/21/difference-between-factory-matc...

They seem quite convinced that standard measurements alone are not enough??? With all the "well matched" NOS tubes I have, now that could throw a wrench into my works!
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #65 - 07/09/11 at 20:56:03
 
Will I did see that, and it was one of the reasons I felt the "investment" was worth it with Grant Fidelity. The only way to know for sure will be to swap out whole quads in the Torii.
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #66 - 07/09/11 at 21:17:01
 
Greg,

Please do keep us informed! I think the thing that got my attention more than sound was the theory that longevity issues can be revealed with the more complex testing. Hmmm. I guess at this point, I would be inclined go with the Grants "investment" too if I buy the tubes. I can't wait to get your impressions.
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #67 - 07/09/11 at 22:52:18
 
Ehh...  one can get a matched quad of the 6ca7s for about 50% of what Grant Fidelity charges from a source that has never steered me wrong.  On the other hand, I the one premium pair of Shuguangs I got from Grant (Psvane 845) left me feeling numb and was ultimately sold.

My personal feeling is that its effective marketing.
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #68 - 07/09/11 at 22:56:24
 
Gopher,

And what might that source be?
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #69 - 07/09/11 at 23:23:02
 
My third quad was picked up from this auction. I am not complaining, but the fact that it was one of these tubes that broke an octal post when testing, and that my seller has disclaimed any interest in assessing the cause, causes me to ascribe ome value to the Grant Fidelity overhead price. So, best I can do is compare the two, continue testing (once I get my socket savers in), and see what happens.

I do think Grant Fidlity makes some valid points about how matching alone does not provide the necessarily most predictive results. OTOH, it may well be that the 100% markup cannot be justified by any amount of longevity. Don't know. Yet.
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« Last Edit: 07/09/11 at 23:27:21 by Pale Rider »  

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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #70 - 07/09/11 at 23:58:23
 
I have bought my Shuguang tubes from goodcomponent.com  Clark over there has been honest and helpful and even honored a warranty replacement when the bad pair of tubes I returned to him were lost in the mail.

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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #71 - 07/10/11 at 00:10:06
 
Thanks Gopher. Are those guys affiliated with the same people who make DACs, headphone amps like the GD-Audio Phoenix, and other stuff?

Anyway, looks encouraging. I put in an inquiry on the ST 6CA7-Z.
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« Last Edit: 07/10/11 at 00:15:05 by Pale Rider »  

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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #72 - 07/10/11 at 00:21:39
 
I'm not sure to be honest.  I read about them in a thread on audioasylum and have used them a few times for tubes only.
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #73 - 07/10/11 at 00:22:01
 
Thanks Gopher.
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #74 - 07/10/11 at 02:58:00
 
Reading the information provided by [Cary] Grant Fidelity, Shuguang quality leaves a whole lot to to be desired.
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #75 - 07/10/11 at 03:12:39
 
RR, I think you are spot on that this is one way to interpret the Grant Fidelity assessment of the Shuguang tubes. Like buying old Jags; cars were wonderful to drive, so long as you could drive them.  Reminds me of an old cartoon that showed a dealer, and a buyer discussing price, and the dealer says something like: "And here is our Platinum Premiere Package; it includes a stand-by mechanic."
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #76 - 07/10/11 at 03:30:20
 
PR,

Did your first TORII show up yet?
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #77 - 07/10/11 at 03:36:37
 
Not yet. Due here Monday, July 11.
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #78 - 07/10/11 at 04:44:41
 
7/11, a lucky day!

Looking forward to your feedback.
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #79 - 07/14/11 at 18:58:25
 
Well, I was out sick a couple of days, so didn't have a chance to set up my Torii for its burn-in cycle. But it is going now. 5 hours on and off.  I have an iPod set up to shuffle-repeat through its entire library, with the Torii set on a heavy duty timer cycled every 5 hours. That way, it should only take the V-caps about two months to settle in. Wink Actually, it should take less than that, because I will do the cycling thing only for about a week, before I bring it home. The Radials are due here Tuesday, and Sarah just told me the Ultra is shipping out today.

Such a lovely piece of equipment. I am thinking of changing my handle to Valve Drunk. That way, you guys can call me VD in messages.
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #80 - 07/14/11 at 19:33:36
 
VD, here is your little man Smiley
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« Last Edit: 07/14/11 at 20:05:05 by will »  

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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #81 - 07/15/11 at 18:06:26
 
LOL! What, me worry?
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #82 - 08/30/11 at 05:38:06
 
PR, what is the verdict on the Treasures? Or I should search for it in another thread first? I'll post this first...... .

Also, big price difference between goodcomponents.com and grantfidelity? I suppose the Grade A at grant vs. what goodcomp. carries? I don't know? The fancy box pretty, or paper box scares me too from goodcomponent. I don't have a tube tester.... . Steve does, so I will buy them from him.....if you guys that use them think they are worth it too......like the reviewers.  

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« Last Edit: 08/30/11 at 05:59:56 by stone_of_tone »  

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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #83 - 08/30/11 at 10:02:55
 
SOT, I absolutely love the SGT 6CA7-Z tubes. I have listened to the stock JJ EL-34 and I have the JJ 6CA7 as well. I have some NOS Mullards and Svetlanas also, but I haven't listened to them. I am no fan of Chinese tubes, nor do I believe that simply because they are Chinese, they cannot be good. I ordered two matched quads from Grant, highest rating. I ordered a third quad from a fleabay seller at half the price as the Grants, for backup, but have not listened to them; they are slightly different in appearance only on the bases; the third quad was not shipped in the luxury box, but it arrived safely. The Grants tested as billed on my B&K, and so did the third quad. Bearing in mind that my Toriis (with V-caps) are still breaking in, so there is every reason to believe that their sound is still evolving, here is a summary of what I hear (I am not a big long review writer):

1. Sublime liquidity, a smoothness that is clear and deep.
2. Layers of complexity, which in combination with the depth and detail, amazing detail, produces a deep, wide, tall soundstage.
3. Soft highs, but not lacking air or detail around instruments and voices.
4. Well-controlled taught bass.
5. Very quick transients, with what seems like natural decay.

Now, maybe a year from now, any tube will sound like this in this amazing amp. Could be, but the JJs do not sound this thorough, this complete, not yet anyway. For now, I am delighted.  
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #84 - 08/30/11 at 14:40:46
 
Thanks PR, after I have spent some time with my Torii and the JJ's shipped with/break in of Amp as well......... .  I will have to order Quad's of the highest rating. The curiousity over the next 6 months to a year will itch at me in a good way. I can rationalize the Treasures, because I bought the Torii before the price increase. Thanks again, Stone of Tone.

PS-where do I find that list of where my Torii is in the Que (I could call)? I remember seeing one for Speakers one time.......... . I'll check the Blog or Whats New Tabs.
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #85 - 08/30/11 at 18:56:05
 
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #86 - 08/31/11 at 01:41:33
 
I see you posted the amplifier waiting list... it seems no mater how fast we try to build them the list continues to grow.  That's ok, I've learned a couple things in the past 15 years and the first is that you don't rush a good thing.  We can build and ship between 2 and 4 a week if that's all we build.  There are another 50 amps of different models that you don't see.   With the small addition to the shop and another 6 months of training we can get another full time guy or two and get product back down to 3 to 4 weeks.  It's been around 8.5 weeks all summer and shows no signs of changing anytime soon.


On another note, someone with the Treasures tipped me off about JJ's new 6CA7 and it's a winner.  I am now shipping all Zen TORII's with this 6CA7 in place the of EL34's.  Very nice indeed.

-Steve

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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #87 - 08/31/11 at 02:02:47
 
Steve, Can you explain what you hear from the Shuguangs compared to the JJ 6CA7?
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #88 - 08/31/11 at 07:13:32
 
I understand Steve. Your right and you don't rush a good thing. When it arrives it arrives. I told myself I'm not calling Sarah, she has better things to do. Yes, the new 6CA7's........I look forward to hearing them.

Cheers, Stone of Tone.........and nice new addition to the shop! You are busy.

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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #89 - 08/31/11 at 16:26:06
 
Absolutely. In this line of work, right is preferable to fast.
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #90 - 09/08/11 at 03:06:25
 
awesome input, Steve.  I'll be picking up a quad in the next month or so to compare with my treasures and see what is what.  

The price is certainly right.
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #91 - 09/08/11 at 03:13:56
 
I am the tipster and yes, I think you will like them. The Treasures are not in any way bad, its just the JJ's sound more like music. To me this proves that yes, there IS a Santa Claus!
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« Last Edit: 09/08/11 at 03:35:04 by datman »  

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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #92 - 09/08/11 at 06:15:28
 
My Treasures had about 500-600 hours on them when I learned about the JJs. So, I am not at all sure that I had them, and definitely not my Toriis fully broken in yet. So, when I swapped the JJs in on Torii #2, I am sure I was swapping in a "volatile" test bed. Among other things, the Toriis were not fully broken in and the JJs were still fresh.  Still, I took some notes and made some preliminary observations:

1. The JJ 6CA7 tubes are much more musical and engaging than the stock JJs out of the box.

2. The JJs are definitely a much netter value than the Treasures. There really is no contest.

3. But the JJs are not, to my ears more musical than the Treasures I have played for several hundred hours. Granted, that is likely an unfair comparison, but it is the only one I can make right now. The Treasures are both more accurate and more engaging, a good—but expensive—combo.

But if I had to do it all over again from scratch, I would almost certainly opt for the JJs. If I hadn't already spent the money, I wouldn't spend it in the first instance and likely won't again. YMMV.
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« Last Edit: 09/08/11 at 06:16:34 by Pale Rider »  

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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #93 - 09/14/11 at 19:33:12
 
Welp, I sold my quad of Winged "C" el34s that came with the Torii and used the proceeds to order up some JJ 6CA7s.  If nothing else, it sounds like they'll be a great backup tube to my black treasures, which I am digging.

If the performance is close enough, maybe I'll even sell the BTs to re-coupe some funds and consider the JJs a 'free' upgrade over stock.
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #94 - 09/14/11 at 21:14:15
 
That's what i did and boy am I happy that I did.
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« Last Edit: 09/16/11 at 04:36:27 by datman »  

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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #95 - 09/14/11 at 21:56:01
 
Gopher,

Please let us know your thoughts comparing what you like and don't like about the two once the JJs are all burned in. I had a set and after about 80 hours they were beginning to sound pretty impressive in many ways, but then one went funky....some breakup when the music saturated. I have a replacement quad coming, but just when I was thinking I was beginning to hear what the tubes were about! I am so over burnin Sad

Datman,

My guess is these could easily need 150 hrs or more to get the full feel of them. Do you recall?
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #96 - 09/14/11 at 22:20:31
 
They seem to improve quite a bit for the first 50 hours. The improvement continues after this but a a slower rate. At this point I do believe the JJ's are superior to the Treasures. Who knew? Mine was the first Torii built with Treasures as output tubes instead of SED's.
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #97 - 09/16/11 at 01:43:47
 
They're due to arrive tomorrow from UPS.  I don't know if I'll throw them in for Friday's session (assuming I have one) or wait till I go to bed and leave 'em on playing tones.

I have little patience for burn in.  In most instances I PREFER buying used for that reason.  That said, it should be fun.
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #98 - 09/16/11 at 01:50:55
 
Gopher, I am with you on burnin, and from my experience with the JJs I would tend toward the tones all night if you can do that. And probably the next night too!
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #99 - 09/16/11 at 06:11:20
 
I'm liking all this input about the JJ's now coming with the Torii. I am going to hook my new III up to my Dish Network Box/DVR and let Serius Sat. music play through it for 150 hours and watch some TV too here and there of course.

Stone of Tone
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #100 - 09/16/11 at 07:14:24
 
That's exciting! Looking forward to your impressions of the amp in your system. 150 should give a nice start for the Torii and its tubes revealing their sound.
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #101 - 09/17/11 at 03:13:40
 
I ended up throwing them in this afternoon after work.  I only got to listen for an hour or so before I had to go to a BBQ, but my first impressions were very positive.  

A very different, very pleasant presentation--far more meat on bottom and plenty of top end extension--I was a little concerned it might be a darker tube, but I'm not finding it to be so.  I actually perceived a little more resolution, picking up on some distortion I didn't know was present on te MOFI reissue of Cowboy Junkies, Whites off earth.

It will be interesting to hear how these things develop over time, but at least my first impression is that they have a more natural presentation as well.
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #102 - 09/17/11 at 13:47:03
 
I ordered a matched quad to try as my current Winged C quartet is just past half its life cycle. Should be good by these reports!
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #103 - 09/17/11 at 18:24:43
 
They ran all night playing the Isotek burn in tones disc and when I woke up today I wasn't as thrilled about what I was hearing.  Sounded a little more ambiguous and less engaging.  Kind of a distant presentation--I popped 'em out and threw the Treasures back in.  

I know the JJs have potential and can see they'll be capable of a lot, but I've got the house to myself today and I want to listen to music, not burn in.  I'll probably throw them back in overnight and keep 'em burning in  behinds the scenes.
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #104 - 09/17/11 at 18:53:08
 
Mine moved around a fair bit for a long time. Seems like power tubes usually sound OK right at first, then move through mostly less-than-stellar stages to get to their sound...after about 80 hours, mine started more seriously revealing the detail again, and within the darker matrix finally began to result in what I think of as "warmth." A slightly rich, textural tonal signature that is not transparent but feels that way...colored a little toward the dark in the mid to low mids but also having a lot of pleasing detail, macro and micro, bringing out textures, sparkle and air. And the JJs did give a nice tight bass thing, with big body and good ambient information. But I only got part way through burn in before one started to fail! I hate that.
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #105 - 09/20/11 at 02:40:27
 
I'm starting to think I may have spoken a bit hastily on these tubes.  They're pleasant enough and a definite improvement over the winged "c" tubes, but they're just less incisive/authoritative then the Treasures.  

I like them, but its hard to say better--its a different presentation.  I'd hoped I'd prefer them clearly and sell the treasures, but I don't think it will be that simple as both have their strengths...

Then again, we will see what additional burn in brings.  Also, I should try other reg tubes with these.  The 0A3s may be calling my name.
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #106 - 09/20/11 at 02:44:13
 
Thanks Gopher and please keep us informed as they sort out.

How much time do you have on them?
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« Last Edit: 09/20/11 at 02:45:13 by will »  

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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #107 - 09/20/11 at 02:47:35
 
I don't really know, I took them out for a bit this weekend--maybe 30-40 hours of Isotek burn in time by now.  

They aren't bad by any means, damn good really.  I'm just not ready to pronounce them as slaying the Black Treasures yet, which I'd be happy to do if it were the case.  I haven't had much love in the past for black treasure/psvane tubes.

Anyway--who knows what another 50 hours will bring?

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« Last Edit: 09/20/11 at 02:51:07 by Gopher »  
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Re: Question About Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z Tubes
Reply #108 - 09/20/11 at 02:51:36
 
Sounds interesting and fun. I suspect that they will need at least twice that with the Isotec CD. My wild guess was that they would need 150 hours or more of normal music to really come out in a big way, but this is totally a guess.
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