Forums - VCAP's in TORII MK III

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Posts: 24

VCAP's in TORII MK III
03/13/11 at 19:13:04

Has anyone got any experience with the VCAP upgrade in their TORII MK III if so what VCAP model is installed in the upgrade firstly, secondly, did you get the upgrade after the fact and have a chance to compare VCAP's to the TORII III stock CAPS. I have read a lot about the differences in the VCAP models and that the break-in time is very extensive but worth it. [smiley=51.gif] Smiley

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mac5u

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Posts: 100

Re: VCAP's in TORII MK III
Reply #1 - 03/20/11 at 01:05:57

Welcome the to Forums, lovethemusic. Glad to have you here.

You asked a very interesting question, and one that isn't, nearly as I can tell, readily answered elsewhere on this site so hopefully someone with experience with both the stock caps and V-Caps will chime in.

The V-Cap is offered as an upgrade, and while I may have missed it, there is very little information about the upgrade on the Torii product page. A shame too, because Steve does a very good job elsewhere contrasting the sound one can get from the different input, rectifier, and voltage regulator tubes one can install.

I noted on the Torii MK II Design Notes that Steve recommended not changing the coupling caps.

"The audiophiles favorite part [coupling caps] to modify... on the new TORII we recommend you please don't. The caps used have been selected for their benchmark coherency and the popular boutique audiophile caps have all been tried".

However, my thought is that any product, designed to a particular price point, might be improved through substitution of different parts. I am not saying that Steve hasn't taken this amp as far as it can go, maybe he indeed has, but unless someone who has tried various caps can state definitively, at least for his gear /room/ ears that the stock caps are as good as it gets, then one can rightly wonder about the effects of different caps.

Anyway, welcome again. It's a quiet place, but there are some very helpul members here. Don't let the lack of response put you off from giving the Torii a try.

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Steve Deckert Administrator If the 1st watt sucks why continue? Posts: 2224	Re: VCAP's in TORII MK III Reply #2 - 03/22/11 at 17:09:32 I have added some much need info about the vcaps to the Zen Torii page. Hopefully it will help! Thanks, Steve
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JLM

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music makes me happy

Posts: 37

Re: VCAP's in TORII MK III
Reply #3 - 03/23/11 at 16:10:05

Wow, a $500 upcharge for caps on a $2500 amp! And they reportedly aren't even a huge improvement.

How things have changed at Decware (I remember back when the Select, at $200 more than the model C, was the most expensive amp "upgrade" offered). Grin

Don't take this comment as a criticism, just an observation. I love the whole Decware scene (hand built, American, quality, value, etc.) and that there is finally an amp included for "the rest of us".

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Chris K

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Re: VCAP's in TORII MK III
Reply #4 - 03/23/11 at 21:09:48

JLM,
Price out those caps and you can understand the charge. Also $2495 is a really low price for what Steve puts in this amp, not to mention the time it took to develop it. More like a $4,000 amp. The separate tube voltage rectification on the front end and the power side as well as the purpose built output transformers are reasons why it might/should cost more. $2500 is a bargain.

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Hi-Fi Gear: More than I need! Not as much as I want!

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mac5u Seasoned Member Posts: 100	Re: VCAP's in TORII MK III Reply #5 - 03/23/11 at 21:20:08 And they reportedly aren't even a huge improvement. JLM Just curious: Where is this reported? Thanks. Steve -- Thanks for the additional information on the cap options.
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ZYGI

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Re: VCAP's in TORII MK III
Reply #6 - 03/24/11 at 19:16:30

Jeff,

If I am correct, and the Torii-III still uses two caps per channel like the Torii-II did then you would have to have 4 caps instead of two doubling the price for a V-Cap upgrade. ON the Taboo, I think it is, some other changes are also made, (operating points) maybe this is why Steve thinks there is more an improvement than someone just replacing the caps.

And then again I could be way off base here.

ZYGI

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All Decware amps and sources, Turning Point Audio speakers

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Lon Seasoned Member "Love without guts is worthless!" Philip K. D*ck Posts: 5232	Re: VCAP's in TORII MK III Reply #7 - 03/24/11 at 22:23:15 Wow, it's hard to believe a Mk III could be improved on! I love the sound of mine as is. Not tempted to V-Cap.
Back to top	Decware:ERR,HR-1,Styx,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III PS Audio PWT and PWD Mk II,PowerBase (2), PPP,AC-12 pc Sony BPD-S5000ES Denon DCD-A100 Rega RP3+TTPSU,white belt and Exact2 Cryoset, VooDoo AudioICs Mapleshade Samson v2+v3 and 4"platforms Herbie's Audio Lab p IP Logged

JLM

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music makes me happy

Posts: 37

Re: VCAP's in TORII MK III
Reply #8 - 03/24/11 at 22:36:16

Don't tell Steve (because I really want to buy one someday) but the Torii Mk III is way underpriced IMO. (But that is one of the charms for consumers that stumble onto cottage industry gems.)

I'm not saying he's over charging for the V-caps, just in a backhanded way trying to say the Torii (I'm sure) must be really good if that's what it takes to better it (and reminiscing).

mac5u: thought I found Steve stating it somewhere in the forums (I can barely read your yellow font).

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mac5u

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Posts: 100

Re: VCAP's in TORII MK III
Reply #9 - 03/26/11 at 00:49:47

JLM,

I took off the "yellow" color. It works well on my monitor but I did not think how it might appear on other monitors.

I haven't read through all of Steve's comments but he does write in the Designer Notes for the MKII that tweakers should just leave the coupling caps alone.

Still, it would be nice to hear from users who tried different caps. Are there any out there? Anyone?

Will the sound change? Yes. For the better? ???

Lon, if you aren't tempted to try the V-Caps, what Steve added to the MK III product page won't tempt you either.

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« Last Edit: 03/26/11 at 00:57:36 by mac5u »

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Lon

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"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 5232

Re: VCAP's in TORII MK III
Reply #10 - 03/26/11 at 01:28:18

I'm not tempted for several reasons. One. . . I don't want to return the amp, can't bear to be without, and I'm not gifted enough to perform that myself. Two. . . The expense. . I mean I would be more tempted to try something else, say the more expensive Wyred DAC, than this expense. And third I've a fear that these caps might make the amp more detailed, more clinical if you will. I tend to prefer musicality to absolute detail, and I think the Torii is very well set up by Steve and I'm not wanting to change the signature in any way.

Plus. . . hundreds of hours to "burn in". . . I could do without that.

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Decware:ERR,HR-1,Styx,ZP3,CSP2+(2),Torii Mk III
PS Audio PWT and PWD Mk II,PowerBase (2), PPP,AC-12 pc
Sony BPD-S5000ES
Denon DCD-A100
Rega RP3+TTPSU,white belt and Exact2
Cryoset, VooDoo AudioICs
Mapleshade Samson v2+v3 and 4"platforms
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lovethemusic

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Posts: 24

Re: VCAP's in TORII MK III
Reply #11 - 03/27/11 at 21:06:11

VCAP guarantee's their caps for life, like DECWARE, confirming excellence/confidence, taking a GREAT AMP and making it one of the best amps available today. These premium caps are only found in ultra high end gear and usually the most expensive gear on the planet. Break-in is what it is, patience has its virtues as always. In the long run I am convinced that going with the VCAP is the way to go especially if buying the amp new, circumventing the the extra shipping fee's and extra most painful break-in period. Are they absolutely necessary NO, but in my case it seemed like a no brainer. If the amp sings like no other, maybe Steve will consider installing them in the ZP3 too. I will post my findings. One thing I like about the VCAP option is that if there are weak links in my system, they will jump right out and be easier to identify. Those pesky weak links, I don't like them.

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JLM Verified Member music makes me happy Posts: 37	Re: VCAP's in TORII MK III Reply #12 - 03/27/11 at 21:43:25 I'd like an A/B comparison between fully broken in stock Torii Mk III versus the V-capped Torii Mk III. Any takers? I've spent more to mod equipment ($600 for a Squeeze Box 3 and $700 to have Bud Purvine EnABL my Fostex F200A drivers), but I feel that those were even bigger values. I could be wrong.
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lovethemusic

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Posts: 24

Re: VCAP's in TORII MK III
Reply #13 - 03/27/11 at 22:31:04

I look at the VCAP upgrade as a longterm value, to be enjoyed for a long time, with the highest of returns. The initial outlay on the surface may seem steep but as I said a great short and longterm value overall. These caps are VERY expensive to buy even at bulk prices. I'd wager they are the most expensive caps available, of course I am not certain of that by any means. To me building the foundation correctly, if there is such a thing in audio is the most important thing, and proper equipment matching. Then its really all in the details thereafter.

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lovethemusic Verified Member Posts: 24	Re: VCAP's in TORII MK III Reply #14 - 04/21/11 at 02:51:06 Got my Zen Torii Mk III, w/ VCAPS, going thru break-in period now the sound changes daily, by the minute actually for the better. Interesting.http://www.decwarhttp://www.decware.com/yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/yabb21/cheesy....
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