Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Decware Audio Forums
10/22/14 at 04:36:25


Pages: 1 
Send Topic Print
Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware (Read 9871 times)
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7680
Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
01/12/11 at 17:00:40
 
If I were a less tenacious and opinionated person, I might have an easier time with life.

As an example, I believe in Decware and the value that it brings. I live on a few music forums, and there are always people asking for recommendations of affordable amplifiers, preamps, speakers, cabling, etc. I always recommend Decware, because as we all know, Decware is the very definition of bang for buck excellent sound.

More often than not, these recommendations are met with incredulity if not derision.  A surprisingly smaller than one would have found last decade just blow off the whole idea of tubes, as that's old shit that can't be good. But more and more people say "Why buy something like Decware that you never heard of when you can buy this built in Taiwan and China and Korea solid state thing that has a name that most everyone knows?"  I point out that the Decware products are hand-built in the USA and have a warranty that's hard to believe, but get nowhere as people say "why not buy this tube amp from China at half the price it sure looks good on this ebay ad!"

It's frustrating, but I keep recommending Decware as often as I can, and even get labeled a paid representative for Decware sometimes as no one seems willing to believe that anyone could be so passionate about a manufacturer without being paid.

And, I have to say, I'm pretty certain that in the end I've brought a few new persons to Decware.

Anyone else encounter similar resistance, disbelief, ridicule in even suggesting Decware as a quality alternative to the mass brands?
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
dla405j
Verified Member
**




Posts: 27
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #1 - 01/12/11 at 18:46:29
 
I'm amazed at the number of "informed" audiophiles who don't know about decware and refuse to take a look.  I'm lucky to live in Illinois so it's easy to make a trip to East peoria for pickup of amps/service and Decfest.  After several times getting the cold shoulder from audio boutiques Decware staff is most accommodating and down right friendly! It's also a no bulls*** place that has regular people doing exceptional work..all questions are answered and the design is superb, worth far more than costs.  I think you have to get people to take the first step; go to this website, read, then make a visit and hear and compare...but most people can't/won't make the effort and just stay in their same audio rut

Dave A.   dla405j
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Randy in Caintuck
Seasoned Member
****


Tube be ... or not
tube be ... it's a
no-brainer.

Posts: 409
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #2 - 01/12/11 at 21:05:20
 

Howdy Lon,

I hear what you're saying .....

The sad thing is that "hearing is believing" ..... at least for many people, and unless a person has heard the difference between a well designed and executed piece of audio gear and the "other stuff" they have no idea what they are missing.

I wish I had a nickel for every person who was a big fan of mid-fi rack systems, B*se equipment or other highly regarded audio gear (both tube and SS) that had a jaw dropping experience while spending a couple of hours in my listening room hearing music through the Decware Select amplifier.

Having said that, I have also seen a lot of folks who just "didn't get it", either because the music was not that important to them or because they simply can't hear .....

Keep fighting the good fight ..... but even if no one else is interested you have the satisfaction of hearing music in a way that puts a smile on your face .....

Best wishes,

Randy
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 01/12/11 at 21:09:12 by Randy in Caintuck »  

CEC TL-2 belt drive CD transport
Camelot Uther / Anagram DAC
Decware Model SE84C+ amplifier
Greenvalve Audio Type 10 amplifier
Parker Audio Troll Magnus speakers
"Mini Me" OBs - with Hawthorne Augies, Wild Burro Betsy drivers and Heil AMTs
WWW   IP Logged
proud_indian
Seasoned Member
****


I love YaBB 1G -
SP1!

Posts: 196
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #3 - 01/13/11 at 06:57:24
 
I think, it all has to do with the creator. With Decware products, I always get the feeling, that I am buying the best "sound", because of the effort put in is more than 100%. For my ZOB, there are options that Steve has mentioned, but I feel that the DFR, will do a good job. I always tell my friends that when I get something from Decware, it normally means "look no further"

shreekant Smiley
Back to top
 
 

84C, ZBox, Ex mod, Zkit4&5.1, Vcap, CCE, Lowthers, CD200, Power iso and other stuff
WWW   IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7680
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #4 - 01/13/11 at 15:08:13
 
Well, we'll all keep fighting the good fight I guess. I hate being part of an elite. Smiley  I want many more to experience this.

And looking at the way that Decware has grown in the last dozen years. . . many more are, one by one.

Keep 'em flying boys!
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
Jon
Verified Member
**




Posts: 47
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #5 - 01/13/11 at 23:12:27
 
I must say that I am more than 100% satisfied with my Decware purchase.  When I was doing research into different speakers and companies I often found myself getting stand offish comments about my amp - SE84ZS.  They were not blatant responses but definitely had an underlying tone.  People hear what they want to hear and see what they want to see based on price and name, not by sound quality.  From the quality of service and product that I received from Steve and company, all of my future component purchases will come from Decware (outside of a turntable).
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
stone_of_tone
Seasoned Member
****


Listen Often/Listen
Deep

Posts: 853
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #6 - 01/19/11 at 05:47:57
 
Great thread Lon. Randy, as you said, they don't get it or can't hear (not a gifted listener as Gizmo would say) and/or MUSIC is just not that important to them.

I keep that in mind when I am enjoying the listening room at 76db SPL average and it actually sounds louder and wet with tone. It takes people like us who actually SIT and listen to music for enjoyment to the soul/core TO seek out products like Steves amps for transparency, timbre and tone to keep US involved in the music while we listen actively.

Most people will never understand that. They enjoy music passively and nothing more and that is ok. We care that a ride cymbal sounds like a ride cymbal............

Stone of Tone Cool

Back to top
 
 

Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
Audio Magic Mystic Reference I2S
Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
Kimber Select 1030
Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk Audio LS-90
Tri-config/TipToes & Vibropods underneath Speakers
360 degree Rm Treats
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7680
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #7 - 01/19/11 at 13:40:13
 
Good points gentlemen!

Stone, the thing that mystifies me is when there are those that DO listen as we do and they aren't interested in trying Decware because it has no "name" they know.

Ah well! Smiley
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
Randy in Caintuck
Seasoned Member
****


Tube be ... or not
tube be ... it's a
no-brainer.

Posts: 409
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #8 - 01/19/11 at 14:47:38
 

Lon,

Your comment reminded me of something that happened several years ago.  I had not thought about this for a long time .....

Before purchasing the Decware Select amplifier, I owned a rather pricey Audio Research amplifier.  It sounded OK and had enough juice that you could do arc welding with it ..... but the Select put it to shame when it came to making music.

There was a guy I knew from across the river in Cincinnati who would come to visit once in a while to check out "what was new in my system".  He was really into the Stereopile recommended components stuff and thought my AR amp was the bee's knees since it was on the list.  Of course, it probably didn't hurt that he also owned some AR equipment .....

The way I had the system set up at the time, the amplifier was not visible from the listening seat.  I sat the gent down and played a few songs for him through the Select without telling him that there was a new amplifier was in the system.

He had a big smile on his face and stated that "the system has never sounded better".

So ..... I walked him over and showed him the new amplifier.
The blood literally drained from his face .....

We listened to a few more songs and when he was getting ready to leave his comment was "well, that little amplifier sounds pretty good for what it is" .....

The really funny thing was that the speakers I had at the time were a pair of ProAc bookshelves with insanely complex crossovers which did not really let the Decware Select do its thing.

It's amazing the effect that "name recognition" has on the ears of some people .....

Randy
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 01/19/11 at 15:00:50 by Randy in Caintuck »  

CEC TL-2 belt drive CD transport
Camelot Uther / Anagram DAC
Decware Model SE84C+ amplifier
Greenvalve Audio Type 10 amplifier
Parker Audio Troll Magnus speakers
"Mini Me" OBs - with Hawthorne Augies, Wild Burro Betsy drivers and Heil AMTs
WWW   IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7680
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #9 - 01/19/11 at 15:30:20
 
Yes, that story, I bet we could find hundreds of examples, and we wouldn't be surprised.

It's human nature, I certainly have exhibited that type of behavior in many other forms. One example would be when my late wife talked me into seeing the movie by Mira Nair called "Monsoon Wedding." It didn't have a single actor I'd heard of, nor was it directed by anyone I knew of, and I had very low expectations. Turns out it was one of the very best movies I have ever seen, and I've seen it multiple times, and each time it moves me to my core, it makes me an emotional puddle. Cinematic art at its finest. And I would have glossed right over it because. . . it had no "names."

We'll just have to keep on keeping up the good fight!
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
ny10522
Verified Member
**




Posts: 32
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #10 - 01/21/11 at 16:44:52
 
This industry seems to be driven by one name: "Stereophile." It doesn´t take much common sense to recognize that Stereophile´s "hallowed" opinions may be more than compromised by the volume of advertising between its covers. Direct subscriptions are dirt cheap so ad dollars reign supreme. How many of its reviews focus on gear clean of ad dollars and audio dealer markups? I have noticed that after low priced budget components are favorably reviewed, they are invariably knocked down in future follow up issues which point out discovered deficiencies. Rarely is an ultra expensive component from its advertiser list subject to the same scrutiny.
If Stereophile were honest and objective, it would laud the unique lifetime warranty of Decware products as a service to its subscribers. Indeed, I don´t remember reading a single Stereophile article that focused on product reliability or customer service.
The internet has, more than anything else, leveled the playing field by providing recommendations directly from consumers to consumers. I learned about Decware years ago from an audio forum. I called Decware, and much to my surprise, received some great advice from the company president (Steve) over the phone and well...I´ve been hooked on the gear ever since.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 01/22/11 at 00:16:47 by ny10522 »  

Main:
  IP Logged
ski bum
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 177
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #11 - 01/23/11 at 19:32:33
 
More Decware publicity from cnet:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-20029188-47.html?tag=cnetRiver

Comments are about what you would expect.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
mike_gagne
Senior Member
***




Posts: 94
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #12 - 01/23/11 at 20:57:01
 
Aloha all, I havent been here in a while but I loved this thread and had to comment! I've been building my house which turned into a bigger project AND I have a dedicated listen room.
My addition to Lon's, Randy's and ny's post is that some folks are "inner directed" in that they feel themselves from their own perceptions. More people are "outer directed"-guided by what others say and do.
I'll be back soon. Thanks for still being here.   mike
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7680
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #13 - 01/23/11 at 22:23:34
 
ny, you've touched on why I let my subscription to Stereophile lapse for years. I learned a lot reading it for years, but I also was increasingly alienated by some of the attitudes that revealed themselves to me.

ski bum, thanks for the link. Yeah, the comments are just about what I expected!

mike, I think you've raised a very interesting thought. Pondering it, I think it makes quite a bit of sense.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 01/23/11 at 22:26:38 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
ski bum
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 177
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #14 - 01/23/11 at 23:25:11
 
Lon and Mike-

The author of that cnet article is a contributor to Stereophile, I believe.  So far that guy has had two articles with very positive things to say about Decware, despite the inevitable flame war in the comments.  He seems to be fighting the good fight, and bringing more attention to Decware than anonymous individuals making recommendations in a music or audio forum ever could.  

If the added exposure helps Steve put food on the table and pisses off some obsessive/compuslive jerks, that's great.


Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 01/23/11 at 23:28:16 by ski bum »  
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7680
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #15 - 01/24/11 at 14:22:44
 
I agree absolutely. . . the author is fighting the good fight. . . and a lot of the comments show how hard the struggle can be.
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
stone_of_tone
Seasoned Member
****


Listen Often/Listen
Deep

Posts: 853
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #16 - 01/24/11 at 17:30:42
 
Way to go Guttenberg. Recent post too, from Friday. However, per Guttenberg and posts-I hate to see people not trying this Amp or Steve's other Amps because constant high efficiency is stated as so necessary.

Read Randy's post again (reply #8). Ask Lon what he used to listen to his A, B and Select versions with? You can enjoy this Amp and the Select with a 90db sensitivity Speaker, mostly simple crossover, small room at 76db SPL with spectacular results-as I do.

Yes, when you move to a large space per family room size you need a pair of Zu's or RL's. Trust me, I would not be listening to my Select with my Speakers for 10 years come May if it was not something special in my Small Room with Treatments and my Cables. It was no accident; I worked hard to create this true synergy-synergy truly applies here.

However, I have tried other Speakers I own or owned with similar specs to my LS-90's and they sucked with my Select: Paradigm Mon7 V4, Tannoy's from the 70's, Polk Mon12, Polk RTiA1's, Mirage and Parker Crusader's. Actually, the Parkers need the big space and are great in my garage with S-State. They did not have the resolution of my LS-90's with the Zen and they are to dry.

My point simply is: Guttenberg was on point and also likes more power sometimes, to rock out-me too-see below. (However, the MK Torii III can replace my mono blocks soon I hope to do what the Select does for me).

HOWEVER, YOU CAN DRIVE some not so highly efficient designs (Speakers) like I do/still do, Randy did and Lon did, with Decware Amps and of course the Torii MKIII will drive anything. You just have to find the right speakers and use a small room (cubic feet) and listen at normal levels of 76db SPL average.

But, I get it, that 95db at 1 watt 1 meter is needed for a larger space and more SPL etc.....I am interested in the new pair of Speakers Steve is selling in a homemade open baffle! But, make no mistake, I have headroom, resolution and good bass with my current speakers because of set up, the speakers "work", a great front end and Cables I still pack in their Pelican Cases and take to friends and blow there minds on what cables can do (or not do/get out of the way). However, I am moving and will have the opportunity to have my small space and a bigger space to get Steve's new Driver's!

Stone of Tone  8-)


Solid State will never beat my Zen Select for Flesh on Bone Musicality.

But, I do like some butt muscle solid state 2 channel jamin' right?

I picked up a pair mono block Emotiva UPA-1's for my 2nd system within the same room/dedicated listening room. I also run wire out to run a pair of Speakers in the family room too sometimes. Lots of fun!
However, not the musicality as we know and Guttenberg stated too that you get with a/the Decware Amp.

Solid State System:
Denon DCM-290 (Transport)
Acoustic Zen MC2
Dac Magic
Monster M1000 MKIII  IC (from 1993)
Rotel RA-1062 (as Preamp)
Kimber PK10 Palladian (Rotel)
Kimber KCAG
Emotiva UPA-1 x 2
HGA SC-16 Silver Braid to Kimber 8TC
Polk LS90
360 Degree Room treats-dedicated Room

Tube Amp System: (#1 system = 80% of my listening)
Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
Prophecy Cryo-Silver i2s
Audio Alchemy 3.0 Dac
Kimber Select 1030
Decware Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk LS-90
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 01/27/11 at 14:48:49 by stone_of_tone »  

Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
Audio Magic Mystic Reference I2S
Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
Kimber Select 1030
Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk Audio LS-90
Tri-config/TipToes & Vibropods underneath Speakers
360 degree Rm Treats
  IP Logged
ski bum
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 177
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #17 - 01/25/11 at 15:41:45
 
All the typical comments as in the cnet articles makes me wonder something.  They always seem to get so hot and bothered arguing the SET thing, but reading between the lines most have not even bothered listening to one based on high output impedance or some other technical flaw.  They think the whole approach is insane, and won't even allow themselves personal experience with it.  Ever notice that the DBT criteria of Aczel et al are so restrictive that SETs could never qualify?  As a skeptical dude who happens to like SET sound, it makes me wonder what they're afraid of.  They discount them on principle.  Their objectivist sycophants follow their lead.  

But that's a lot of potential customers to ignore.  What I was wondering is if an 'objectivist' flavored pitch would work on them.    

A pitch including up front that the SET thing follows a different paradigm which is highly subjective, thus nullifying their primary arguments.  Some solid statistics supporting subjective preference (Steve will have to set up the Decware equivalent of the Pepsi Challenge at Northwoods or something.  Is Northwoods Mall still there?  I'm pretty sure Decware gear would outshine any equivalently priced conventional system, call it a hunch).  A pitch with transfer function analysis explicitly detailing the measurable factors of what the SETs do differently; they love data, and may be receptive as long as it wasn't pitched to them using tell-tale 'snake oil' terms they have been conditioned to negatively react to from years of reading TAC.  And a pitch including the cost/value of Decware gear, of course; most objectivists are economically conservative, frugal types.

Waddaya think?  Did I add too much Bailey's to my coffee this morning, or am I on to something here?    
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 01/25/11 at 16:01:02 by ski bum »  
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7680
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #18 - 01/25/11 at 17:44:38
 
SB,

I want a chemical analysis of your coffee right now!

No, just kidding. I think you are on to something, especially since I think (as I think you do) the real barrier is just getting people to have an open mind and listen.

Imagine if the Decware Fest were in an advertised, large hall place. I know how impractical and impossible that is, but the key is getting people to hear and to understand that the specs and a lot of 'traditional knowledge" of audio is misleading in regards to the humblest Decware amps.
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
ski bum
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 177
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #19 - 01/25/11 at 20:12:09
 
I kind of like the low key Decfest approach Steve has chosen to take.  It's more fitting.  Decware seems a true labor of love by a passionate hobbyist.  If he were to invest in doing exhibitions at RMAF or similar events, it would force him to raise his prices.  Plus, such events are widely scorned for the unsubstantiated stuff that is promoted.  To the objectivist die-hards, such events are veritable monuments to 'snake oil' audiophoolery, and participation there by Steve may make them even less inclined to be open minded.

No, I was thinking more basic than that.  None of the single ended gurus use an explicitly objectivist flavored pitch that I've noticed, which could be a missed oportunity.  Remember how sensitive the objectivist sect is to certain triggers.  Whenever one of those folks sees SET and 'Hi-Fi' together in a sentence they go into apopleptic fits over the correct definition of hi-fi.  Mention 'holographic imaging' and they launch into a pedantic and tiresome review of DBT methodology and why such terms are nonsense.  Unfortunately, and despite the fact that many of them wouldn't know a DBT if it bit them on the ass, their views lie on solid intellectual ground, so breaking through their dogmatic shell is indeed a difficult task.  I guess the question is are there enough of these nitwits to make marketing to them specifically worth the effort.  

So what I was thinking is very simple, just a tab on the site, a link with all the hard data consolidated and presented in a no nonsense, "this ain't magic, it is what it is, here's the facts; many wildly prefer it despite it's technical flaws; give it a try" way.  There may be quite a few compulsive folks who have an inner dancing fool just waiting to be unleashed.

Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 01/27/11 at 01:33:49 by ski bum »  
  IP Logged
mac5u
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 100
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #20 - 01/25/11 at 23:42:12
 
I'll keep my comments brief, not so much because this is my first post here, but because I have not heard any Decware products.  In fact, I have not heard SET amplification.

I have lurked a long time on this forum, and with the prices so reasonable, I have asked myself why I haven't tried some products.  Certainly, I have thought about the ERRs and wondered if I could make three of them work as the LCR in my HT which is where my focus is at the moment.  But there is the issue of amplification and I am not sure any of the amps here would really be appropriate in both a music and HT environment.  

When I consider my home office, though, now that is something altogether.  But I am wandering far afield of the main points of this thread so I offer my own thoughts about "fighting the good fight".

I don't frequent this web site or the forums as much as I would like because for me (this is just my experience), the web site takes forever to load pages on my computer. I probably frequent a dozen other forums on a regular basis and I only have problems with this web site.  

While Lon apparently has tried his best to evangelize audiophiles to Decware, could it be that there are others, like me, who have come to this web site only to be frustrated by the server's response times?  I know the aversion to SET is widespread and one’s unwillingness to use such an amp has nothing to do with this web site.  But as for Decware itself, maybe the pond here is too small.  I don’t mean that disrespectfully, but it is a pretty quiet forum.  

This may be asking too much, but if you want to reach a broader audience, maybe Steve should consider also partnering over at AudioCircle.  There are plenty of boutique manufacturers there and the readership is substantially larger.

I love the design of this forum and its contents, by the way.  I just lose patience in waiting for a pages to load.

And Lon, your willingness to offer ideas has not gone unnoticed.  You remind me of posters on other forums who go out of their way to help.

Well, that wasn't so brief...my bad...
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 01/25/11 at 23:52:35 by mac5u »  
  IP Logged
Rivieraranch
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1274
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #21 - 01/26/11 at 01:28:19
 
I don't have any problem waiting for the pages to load here.
Back to top
 
 

DECWARE CSP2+, TABOO MK III; SE84CKC; HR1; TRAPEZIUM DESKTOP SPEAKERS; TECHNICS SL1200MK5 turntable; Ah! Njoe Tjoeb CD player; MARANTZ 2226B, 2216B receivers; SENNHEISER HD-580 headphones
  IP Logged
opnly_bafld
Ex Member



Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #22 - 01/26/11 at 04:07:10
 
Decware forum loads as fast as any I visit.

Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7680
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #23 - 01/26/11 at 04:48:59
 
mac,

WELCOME. And thanks for bringing another view point to the discussion!

I have to agree with OB and RR in that I'm even most of the time using a now obsolete operating system and the Decware pages load up about normal speed to other websites. . . .

It's really hard to make that first leap into an SET.  I remember saving a few months and even using part of the proceeds from the sale of a motorcycle to buy my first Zen amp, ole 27. It's almost like a leap of faith. . . and really in my experience it's also almost like falling from your horse outside of Damascus and becoming a believer to the core. I found another path to great sound, one I'm still happily on.

Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7680
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #24 - 01/26/11 at 04:52:29
 
That is a good point about the other forum(s). This is a nice small pond. There's a sister site that Steve has available that I gave up frequenting, and generally just as small a pond. A faster moving board with a larger readership could help. I'm personally maxed out on boards. I also live in a jazz board and the Steve Hoffman forum, the largest and fastest moving board I read and post within. There are a few other Decware users and afficianados there, although there's a lot of misunderstanding about Decware and similar amps as well.
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
stone_of_tone
Seasoned Member
****


Listen Often/Listen
Deep

Posts: 853
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #25 - 01/26/11 at 15:00:42
 
"objectivist sect" Post #19 from skibum so elequently put. I left the Minnesota Audio Society because of the Dogma.

Pick your illusion not specs! Thank goodness for Harvey "Gizmo" Rosenberg, Nelson Pass and Steve Deckert and the balls to do what they do and Harvey did. It's about the ear brain connection, NOT engineering specs. I love Nelson's famous quote......about this (easy to find).

Furthermore, it is not about JUST Audiophile Recordings either-I own Reference Recordings from Reference Recordings and I enjoy them as much as the next guy. However, as Guttenberg mentioned, you need forgiving Amplification {Zen C(S)} to enjoy all of your music collection. Even though, most Rock Music CD's are to F'd up to listen to through the Zen Select with its Transparency. But the Jazz I love comes through incredibly. Once again, pick your illusion to your ear brain (thank you Harvey, Nelson & Steve).

Well, my Zen Select is all warmed up!  Time for some MUSIC.  8-)

Stone of Tone
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 01/26/11 at 15:11:45 by stone_of_tone »  

Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
Audio Magic Mystic Reference I2S
Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
Kimber Select 1030
Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk Audio LS-90
Tri-config/TipToes & Vibropods underneath Speakers
360 degree Rm Treats
  IP Logged
Juan Antonio
Senior Member
***




Posts: 77
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #26 - 01/26/11 at 15:10:49
 
What can you say about this one Grin:

"Decware posts the schematic diagram of their amplifier on their web site. Hmm. Very familiar... Oh, yeah, now I remember! It's a dead ringer for the circuitry found in old console stereo amplifiers from the early 60's. Stuff from Magnavox, RCA, Motorola, etc. Not the top of the line ones, mind you. Those were push pull with reasonable power. No, these amps went into the lower end models. And worse, with no feedback, the damping factor on the Decware amp is going to be really low. So no wonder that it will sound very different from the solid state Bel Canto, and no doubt it will also measure very poorly, with a lot of frequency response variation depending on load, high harmonic distortion, and not much power. Why anyone would buy into these products and then claim to achieve "high fidelity" is beyond me. Sure it can create some kind of "pleasant" effect...or not, depending on how all the variables of amp and speaker match fall into place. But it's a total crap shoot, and I wonder why anyone would want to constantly be fooling around with these anemic devices when high quality transparent amplifiers with consistent performance and reasonable power are easily obtainable. And if your speakers sound "better" with those flea power distortion generators than with a bone fide clean and powerful amplifier driving them, I have one simple solution: get rid of those lousy speakers."
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
stone_of_tone
Seasoned Member
****


Listen Often/Listen
Deep

Posts: 853
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #27 - 01/26/11 at 15:15:15
 
Yes! This was one of my favorites from the Guttenberg posts.....dogma dogma and more dogma.

Stone of Tone
Back to top
 
 

Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
Audio Magic Mystic Reference I2S
Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
Kimber Select 1030
Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk Audio LS-90
Tri-config/TipToes & Vibropods underneath Speakers
360 degree Rm Treats
  IP Logged
Rivieraranch
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1274
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #28 - 01/26/11 at 16:28:23
 
I thought that many of those old console amps were single ended, not push/pull? I do recall that our 1959 Motorola SK32W 3-channel 7 speaker console; Declaration cabinetry by Drexel with Golden Stereo 800 automatic record changer, Golden tone arm, 3 separate amplifiers, 3 separate speaker systems, Golden audio separator, Stereo audio selector panel and tuning eye sounded very nice.

When the mind is closed off and the imagination tamped down by years of propaganda about high wattage, solid state, black box gear it is difficult to conceive of one letting go of these illusions and being open minded enough to listen to some good tube gear.

That said, there is a point in one's audio journey where one would encounter good tube equipment; so there is hope, amid the hatred and vitriol often received in reaction to publishing the virtues of tube gear. Maybe some of these people are not ready to receive such information; that shatters illusions as seemingly solid as the densest matter on earth.

The nay sayers should take note of how fast the used DECWARE gear is gobbled up on Audiogon or the forums.  
Back to top
 

motorola.jpg

DECWARE CSP2+, TABOO MK III; SE84CKC; HR1; TRAPEZIUM DESKTOP SPEAKERS; TECHNICS SL1200MK5 turntable; Ah! Njoe Tjoeb CD player; MARANTZ 2226B, 2216B receivers; SENNHEISER HD-580 headphones
  IP Logged
MikeZ@turningpointaudio
Verified Member
**




Posts: 35
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #29 - 01/27/11 at 00:45:51
 
This is a great thread.
Only thing I could think of to add to this is the people on this forum are unlike the skeptics out there. Anyone I have had the pleasure of talking to at a Decfest will have the same comment on equipment non Decware related. They will say if they have heard of equipment but if they have not physically listened to it, they won't give a comment from another source. They will say what they think if they have given the time to listen or enjoy equipment. They won't tell me what their Aunt's cousin's best friend's ex-roommate's step brother heard...
I am only a rookie with the SET setup and haven't gone back since I've heard it. It really changed my view on music and source sound with the difference it makes.
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
mac5u
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 100
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #30 - 01/27/11 at 01:53:28
 
I don't have any problem waiting for the pages to load here  --Rivieraranch


Rivieraranch, I know what you meant by your post but I did have to laugh a little as you seemed to have slow load time too, just no problem in waiting.  

Well, I am glad that the website loads quickly for everyone else so it is just me.  I use a cable modem so I am used to very quick response times. And last comment about this.  I clicked on the Favorites bookmark at 8:22 local and was able to begin this post at about 8:34.  In the meantime, launched new browsing sessions and I read two mini-reviews on the SE84C+ Zen Triode Stereo Amplifier and the CSP2 Zen Triode Preamplifier at Home Theater Review and the Ohm Walsh 5.5000 Upgrade thread and Defending Stereophile thread over at Audiogon.

Now about that post over at CNET about the schematic diagram, sometimes to fight the good fight means having to carry it to them.  Play offense, not defense.  It seems somebody further up the thread had a similar idea but it is on page 1 and I can't wait that long to load another session...


Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
JLM
Verified Member
**


music makes me happy

Posts: 37
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #31 - 01/29/11 at 02:07:11
 
Years ago, Decware had an advantage with less competition from other web based forums, and the SET craze was on the growth curve.

Now maybe the market interest in small tube amps has been satisfied.

Or maybe everyone is doing multi-channel HT or earbuds.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Doorman
Seasoned Member
****


"pouring from
the empty into the
void"

Posts: 425
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #32 - 01/29/11 at 02:56:26
 
Just curious: Do you know Decware's sales numbers on their SET's ?
Wondering how you'd know if sales had "peaked"-- ?
Don
Back to top
 
 

Decware SE34I w/ CCE mod, ZCD, Heybrook/Linn/Clearaudio, Hagerman,
Goertz/Wireworld/cat-5/MarkAudio Alpair 10.2 drivers
(eN) in DIY Mar-Ken cabs
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7680
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #33 - 01/31/11 at 16:32:34
 
About 24 hours ago I started a thread on the Steve Hoffman forum about the ZSTAGE.

Members there are always asking for recommendations for something like the ZSTAGE. And they get responses about Marantz, Jolida, NAD, Creek, Musical Fidelity, Chinese preamps, etc. The ZSTAGE is so much more. . . . I started a thread and it has been viewed 74 times so far. . . and not one response. Which I guess is better than those usual "tubes color, no power, etc." comments. Smiley

http://stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=240507
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
ny10522
Verified Member
**




Posts: 32
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #34 - 01/31/11 at 20:09:50
 
Same here Lon. Started a thread on avsforum.com explaining how Decware Zboxes could be used instead of preamps to control both volume and balance on each dual channel of a 7.1 setup. Audiophiles were wondering how best to set up the new Oppo BDP 95 (audiophile Blue Ray player) to best take advantage of its features (like dedicated studio DACS). Not one response.
Back to top
 
 

Main:
  IP Logged
stone_of_tone
Seasoned Member
****


Listen Often/Listen
Deep

Posts: 853
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #35 - 02/01/11 at 17:02:22
 
This proves Lon's point, if it is not a brand name.....dead silence. I find it interesting people don't pick up on the fact that Steve's Amps are not directly heated triodes (DHT's), well they get that part I hope, are Pentodes run in Triode that can drive 4 and 2 ohm loads down to a dead short. Transformers are his wind and he has an EX Traney too.

These facts convinced me to try the Zen Select and the rest is History. Guttenberg made it clear in his article too, "good bass-not your typical tube amp (I'm paraphrasing)"....and it is made clear in Steve's papers etc.... .

A lot of people can't break free of their ignorance and arrogance.....as DMB says....ants marching?

Stone of Tone
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 02/01/11 at 17:16:02 by stone_of_tone »  

Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
Audio Magic Mystic Reference I2S
Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
Kimber Select 1030
Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk Audio LS-90
Tri-config/TipToes & Vibropods underneath Speakers
360 degree Rm Treats
  IP Logged
Andrew Robinson
Verified Member
**




Posts: 6
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #36 - 02/03/11 at 06:55:27
 
I too have had similar experiences in the past however in recent months I've found there to be a far more accepting mentality among those I've come across and mentioned Decware to.

Case in point, I recently took delivery of a pair of new Omen Def loudspeakers from Zu Audio (in for review) and I began breaking them in on my Zen Select (1st generation) and was detailing the experience on another forum and a few different Facebook pages-to my surprise the response was very positive and open.

I know I've turned quite a few people on to Decware in the past few months, I even know one well-known speaker manufacturer who ordered up a Decware amp after I cited it in one of my recent reviews.

I'm proud to be a Decware owner and follower all these years and I think given the current economic times and over stimulation that has plagued the so-called high-end space people are looking for a simpler, Zen, solution.
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
stone_of_tone
Seasoned Member
****


Listen Often/Listen
Deep

Posts: 853
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #37 - 02/11/11 at 21:13:36
 
Glad to hear Andrew-glad indeed. I should audition a pair of Zu's.

In keeping with what I like to hear/exploit from my Loudspeakers with the Zen Select.....I am going to try these below and see if they can dethrone my LS-90's. I want to hear how they fare in my 2nd system too for HT, Sirius SAT Radio, HDTV broadcast and Solid State Music listening (8 out of 10 discs are with the Zen Select though).

http://hometheaterreview.com/aperion-audio-verus-grand-tower-speakers-reviewed/?...
Stone of Tone
Back to top
 
 

Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
Audio Magic Mystic Reference I2S
Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
Kimber Select 1030
Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk Audio LS-90
Tri-config/TipToes & Vibropods underneath Speakers
360 degree Rm Treats
  IP Logged
4krow
Seasoned Member
****


IMAGINE WHIRLLED
PEAS

Posts: 472
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #38 - 02/11/11 at 23:00:03
 
We talk about recommending this or that, finding the flatest response, with the 'best' cables/speakers/amps etc. We even talk about the importance of room acoustics and what the best time of day might be to listen. Now you don't have to recommend Decware to me, because I am very impressed on many levels about it's performance and the value it has. But no one anywhere will remember that we aren't near perfect ourselves(most of us are over 50 i bet). My point is this; When was the last time you had a hearing test? Almost as important; does mood affect listening? I know that before lunch, my hearing is better, but my mood is not. Is the enviroment you live in(neighborhood) quiet?   And do we make an attempt for those things we can change, to change them? Or do we just look for the next 'miracle capacitor'?    Back to basics i.e. when I started out with this hobby/obsession, I listened on incredibly inferior equipment, and yet those were some of the more memorable times.   No doubt Decware is a fine choice both in value and performance,  maybe we could just leave it at that and enjoy it for what it is, not so much of what it can incrementally become......
Back to top
 
 

Decware 34I.3 integrated amp/Forte' 3 bass amp/Velodyne SMS-1 bass mngmnt system/Decware ZOB speakers/BESL subs/Emotiva ERC3 CD player/BPT 3.0 power cond. PS Audio P500
  IP Logged
Lacee
Verified Member
**




Posts: 20
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #39 - 02/19/11 at 17:54:35
 
I really believe it's all about misconceptions.

Audiophiles are bombarded with reviews of mega watt amplifiers that have the "grip" and "bass control" that only high wattage (insert tube or transistor)amps deliver.

Of course they have no experience with DecWare amps.

I have made a few references about my recent positive experiences with my Zenselect, and stated how powerful those 2 DecWare watts are.

Almost all the posts thereafter , say it just can't be possible to get the type of sound that I am describing with the type of amplifier I am talking about.

I figure their loss my gain.

So trying to change these long held misconceptions about power quantity vs power quality is one tough nut to crack.

Maybe my amp and speaker combination(Ref 3A Grand Veena)really is at the crux of the matter and I am one of the fortunate to have such a winning combination,but unless you try a DecWare amp with whatever speakers you own, how will you know?

That's how I found out and couldn't be happier.

Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
mac5u
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 100
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #40 - 02/20/11 at 21:43:53
 
"I figure their loss my gain."
--Lacee

Why would this be so?  When did this become a zero-sum game?


"Same here Lon. Started a thread on avsforum.com explaining how Decware Zboxes could be used instead of preamps to control both volume and balance on each dual channel of a 7.1 setup. Audiophiles were wondering how best to set up the new Oppo BDP 95 (audiophile Blue Ray player) to best take advantage of its features (like dedicated studio DACS). Not one response. "
--ny10522

Interesting.  I am going to find that thread in a few minutes as I do have a question about that!



"It's really hard to make that first leap into an SET.
--Lon

The price of admission into the SET / Decware universe is tantalizing small but after having had some unfortunate experiences with buying audio gear sight unseen and sound unheard, I have decided not to purchase any gear until at least I have had a chance to audition it, if not in my home, at least somewhere.  And more to the point, I have decided to go to this year's Decware Zenfest to see for myself.


Has the idea of creating a thread devoted to an owner's audition list ever been widely discussed online (or offline) here?  Opening up one's home to strangers is a decision that needs to be made carefully.  However, enthusiasts of other smaller boutique brands have embraced this idea with generally very good results.

Finally, do ya'll ever have any get-togethers?
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 02/21/11 at 01:09:47 by mac5u »  
  IP Logged
Doorman
Seasoned Member
****


"pouring from
the empty into the
void"

Posts: 425
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #41 - 02/20/11 at 21:53:37
 
Doesn't Decware (still) have a 30 day return policy?-best audition there is. One's own home, with one's own electronics!
Best, Don
Back to top
 
 

Decware SE34I w/ CCE mod, ZCD, Heybrook/Linn/Clearaudio, Hagerman,
Goertz/Wireworld/cat-5/MarkAudio Alpair 10.2 drivers
(eN) in DIY Mar-Ken cabs
  IP Logged
mac5u
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 100
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #42 - 02/21/11 at 01:34:42
 
"Doesn't Decware (still) have a 30 day return policy?-best audition there is. One's own home, with one's own electronics"
--Doorman


Hi Don,
Yes, of course Decware does have the 30-day home audition trial, and no, there isn't a better way to audition than in one's own home with one's own gear.  Thirty days is cool; 120 days (Walsh Ohm is even better) so keeping that in mind, it isn't feasible (for me) to simply try out a multitude of gear in my home after adding in shipping costs and re-stocking fees.

I get the sense that if I decide to make the leap to SET (using Lon's words), might mean switching out a number of my components.  With that being said, the Zen Fest in the Fall seems to be a necessity, but I am also hoping to find some Decware owners within a few hours drive of my location where I can drop by for a listening session.

For me, today, I think my focus is on speakers, and to do that right, for me, is to audition as many as I can, and then begin making what might hopefully be an informed decision to begin trying a select few in my home.  
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 02/21/11 at 01:39:31 by mac5u »  
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7680
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #43 - 02/21/11 at 05:10:52
 
Don, someone on the Hoffman forum interestingly noted that to return a component within 30 days means a restocking fee of 15 percent and freight two ways, not a light thing. I had never thought of that. . .I've only once been tempted to send back a Decware product and didn't.

Speaking for myself, I've had several persons over who wanted to hear Decware sound over the years, but I haven't had any Decware listening get togethers and aren't inclined in that direction. I do usually have a weekly gathering of two or three friends, we used to watch Lost together live or on dvr, we now watch Fringe, and we listen to music and have a great time. They think my system sounds amazing. That's the main reason the event is at my place 90 percent of the time.
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
Doorman
Seasoned Member
****


"pouring from
the empty into the
void"

Posts: 425
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #44 - 02/21/11 at 15:21:52
 
Yes, while I too understand  why the re-stocking fee is necessary, I agree that a 15% charge is a significant pile of dough (sigh!)
It's an increasing problem,ie: how to audition equipment when "traditional" retailers are fast disappearing.
I doubt that Steve get many returns, but there's always that chance buying without hearing---
Best, Don
Back to top
 
 

Decware SE34I w/ CCE mod, ZCD, Heybrook/Linn/Clearaudio, Hagerman,
Goertz/Wireworld/cat-5/MarkAudio Alpair 10.2 drivers
(eN) in DIY Mar-Ken cabs
  IP Logged
mac5u
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 100
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #45 - 02/22/11 at 00:39:50
 
That's cool, Lon, that you have friends over.  Kinda funny, I never did watch Lost when it was on and now I am burning my way through the seasons with my Blockbuster by Mail subscription.  It's interesting but the plot drives me crazy sometimes.

In keeping within the topic of this thread, I think having get togethers is good thing.  Some forums have very active members who get together on a fairly regular basis.  I don't need to go over the pros of doing something like that and the cons are pretty self-evident I think:  There's the concern that maybe the house needs to be cleaned, feeding folks, and maybe the shyness factor, or wondering if their system is good enough, or if the space is big enough might all play into deciding to host one for the first time.  

The point is that having these things might go along way toward helping overcome the bias that might exist out there.  I have never heard a SET system before.  I read about the reservations that some people have:  It severely limits the speakers one can use effectively, the music has to be listened to at "moderate levels" in small spaces (no orchestral, nothing dense or layered, nothing that makes demands on bass or percussion, no rock.  You like chamber, jazz, and vocals listen at moderate volumes, then SET is the way to go -- others need not apply.  

I have also read this ain't so too.  But unless I can a listen to a rig, then all I can do is just judge the arguments, the reviews, read between the lines, then decide for myself if the leap is worth the risk effort.

I have made a couple of suggestions about "fighting the good fight" even though I don't have a dog in this fight as-of yet:  Going on offense (i.e. responding in force to that CNET review mentioned earlier), suggesting that Steve consider starting a Circle over at AudioCircle, and then sponsoring G2G's or auditions lists so as to provide opportunities for newbs to experience and judge for themselves.

I am not being critical in any way of anything anybody has done, or hasn't done, to "recommend Decware".  I'm curious and I am tying to figure out the best to "make the leap".

I meant to start a thread today basically inviting Decware owners who might be interested in auditioning their systems.  I ran out of time today but I will get around to it later this week.




Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
ZYGI
Seasoned Member
****


HR-ONE

Posts: 643
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #46 - 02/22/11 at 01:32:25
 
Guys, I just looked at the 30 day return policy and it is still 10% not the 15% you all have been stating.  This just covers the 4-1/2% when charging a card and the 4-1/2% when writing a credit to a card.

Mac5U....if more people would at least list there city/state info more people might be able to hook up with someone that is pretty close.

Its surprising that the caliber of people I meet through this site, that have come over for a listen, thats if I have what they want to listen to at the time. Unfortunately, I am not able to have every thing here.

ZYGI
Back to top
 
 

All Decware amps and sources, Turning Point Audio speakers
  IP Logged
mac5u
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 100
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #47 - 02/23/11 at 00:12:59
 
Mac5U....if more people would at least list there city/state info more people might be able to hook up with someone that is pretty close.

ZYGI -- that a good idea.  I have updated my profile.

Its surprising that the caliber of people I meet through this site, that have come over for a listen, thats if I have what they want to listen to at the time. Unfortunately, I am not able to have every thing here.

ZYGI


Thank you for having people over to listen.  I have started a thread, "Owners' Audition List", where I am inviting Decware owners who have an interest in demoing their gear to so post.  I hope to see a number of responses to this thread.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
.:.impossible
Verified Member
**




Posts: 39
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #48 - 03/01/11 at 17:43:00
 
Granted I'm new to all of this, but I read all of the misconceptions that Mac reiterates above before buying an SE84C+ and I can honestly say that I have no idea were this stuff comes from. So much so that reading about audio now feels like complete hyperbole and imagination. Either that, or most humans have more acute hearing than me.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
mac5u
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 100
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #49 - 03/02/11 at 01:28:28
 
.... reading about audio now feels like complete hyperbole and imagination. Either that, or most humans have more acute hearing than me.
--.:.impossible


I can't answer that since I don't own any Decware gear.  If I had to guess, I would say the concern is that using pieces of equipment such as the ZBox or ZStage is either additive or subtractive to the sound.  Some object to that because one is adjusting the tone to make it more pleasing.  It is adding an unnecessary, in their view, piece of equipment to the chain, and also possibly introduces noise into the system.  It is not accurate and that is what is important to many of them.  

Still, that leaves the question as to why so many comment without actually hearing for themselves.  It's as if they work from some kind of template that conforms to their understanding of amp design and theory.  Some objectivits, they.

The argument gets kinda funny because any piece of gear is going to change the sound.  We only hear a reproduced version of the actual recorded event.  So, the room, speakers, amps, preamps, cables, thingies of all sorts -- it seems to me all that affects what we finally hear, and in the end, we are trying to "tune" it just right.


"...I can honestly say that I have no idea were this stuff comes from."
--.:.impossible


Well. .:.impossible, while I am sure there are other similar sentiments around here, that is one of the clearest statements I have been able to find so far as to the capabilities of the amps.  As to whether one can play complex music, orchestral music, whether one can rock out with these amps without creating undue distortion, after several days of reading through these forums, I am still uncertain on that point myself.  I see carefully nuanced discussions of music and loudness volumes in certain posts and so I must try it out for myself and see if I like it. Still, thank you for the vote of confidence!
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Sysygy
Verified Member
**




Posts: 36
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #50 - 03/02/11 at 03:29:43
 
I recently recomended a Mini Torii and it lead to communication with Decware and to an order.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
JLM
Verified Member
**


music makes me happy

Posts: 37
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #51 - 03/07/11 at 19:35:14
 
I know Steve has had some bad experiences in the past with reviewers, but why not do a room (and do it right) at the next Rocky Mountain Audio Fest?  (Doing it right means reserving a decent room, having plenty of equipment there, and setting up well in advance.  Too many vendors blow in at the last minute with more excuses than equipment and offer a crummy presentation.)

Why don't some of the faithful here post equipment reviews of their favorite Decware pieces on AudioCircle/etc.?  You could all pile on the raves.

Speaking of AudioCircle, some vendors have teamed up, to the benefit of both.  The prime example is Audio by Van Alstine and Salk Speakers.  They promote each other's stuff and present together at the big shows.

Years ago Randy held an audiofest which I thought went quite well.  While not do more of them?

When I picked up my FTA-2000 speakers from Bob Brines he gave me a business card that had a picture of my speakers on it.  You'd better believe I've been a card carrying member of Bob's club ever since.  And I pull it out whenever I can slide the conversation towards audio.

Frankly it looks like Steve is happy to remain at his current level of production and if that's the case, good for him.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7680
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #52 - 03/08/11 at 15:30:37
 
I notice on the Steve Hoffman forums that a Torii Mk III is out for review with the Tone Publication mag. That should be good exposure, I'd be very surprised if it's anything less than a great review.

Good suggestions below about posting reviews on Audio Circle, etc. I'm "internetted" out, I need to spend less time online not more, and I'm also more and more turned off by the idea of "reviewing" amps etc, it's all so subjective, and I find cliche's like "the musicians are in the room" etc. so very wearying and not really "telling." But for those who know how to translate these I guess the process can be helpful.

The truth is that Decware HAS been growing, incrementally, and there is now a fully fleshed out Decware line on offer and with carefully managed growth more to come I'm sure. I'm glad I'm a part of the community and that Decware has been an important part of my life for over a dozen years.
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
Randy in Caintuck
Seasoned Member
****


Tube be ... or not
tube be ... it's a
no-brainer.

Posts: 409
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #53 - 03/11/11 at 01:40:32
 

Quote  "Lon" - "Good suggestions below about posting reviews on Audio Circle, etc. I'm "internetted" out, I need to spend less time online not more, and I'm also more and more turned off by the idea of "reviewing" amps etc, it's all so subjective, and I find cliche's like "the musicians are in the room" etc. so very wearying and not really "telling." But for those who know how to translate these I guess the process can be helpful. "


Hi Lon,

It's good to see that you are still contributing to the forum and "fighting the good fight".  It's a shame that more folks are unaware that there is something much better than the often expensive mass produced and "name recognition" audio gear .....

I guess I'm guilty of being one of the worst "offenders" in the "musicians in the room" club .....

As you suggest, the phrase may be overused, but sometimes helpful to those who feel that they can translate the term correctly ..... but it goes a bit deeper with me.

When I say that an audio system puts the performers in the room, it has to be something pretty special.  From my experience, this effect usually happens with very high quality recordings ..... more often than not of very sparse recordings with a minimum number of instruments and voices.  It seems that the vocals have the ability to be "in the room" much more often than the instruments.  I am a huge fan of female voice, and when the vocalist is so palpable and three dimensional that I get the feeling that she is singing to me personally I have no problem describing that sensation as being "in the room". Admittedly, these recordings are not the norm ..... but I have a good number of them in my collection that qualify.

But, the recording is only part of what is needed .....
I have heard more audio gear and systems than I care to think about over the years.  Some of the systems were very good ..... some not so good.  Of all the systems that I have heard, I have honestly only heard a very few that would qualify as having the ability to pull off this effect.

One such system was at a DecFest at Steve's old place.  A single Zen Select was driving a pair of Parker Audio Crusaders and a pair of SO Imperial subs in parallel.  The effect was incredible and made the jaws of several seasoned music lovers drop to the ground.

Another system was at the HornFest a few years ago with a pair of The Horns being driven by a $30,000.00 GM-70 based amplifier designed and built by Jim Dowdy (the Dowdy Lama).  I have been to live events that were not nearly as captivating and everyone in attendance was stunned.

Two other systems that pull this off on a regular basis are the system I have at home and a very similar system at Parker Audio Dave's home.  Both of these systems have very similar and superb front ends, high resolution loudspeakers and custom built DH-SET amplification.

It should be noted that all of the systems mentioned above feature loudspeakers with either no crossover components or very, very simple ones consisting of a single capacitor between the mid-bass driver and high quality "tweeter", either a ribbon or a Heil Air Motion Transformer.  It's only my opinion (for what it's worth), but I have never heard a more complex speaker that could get me close enough to the music to put the vocalist "in the room".

I am fully aware that the bridge between live and recorded music can never be fully crossed ..... but the systems mentioned above have the ability to get me close enough to the music that I become lost in the performance. As to whether the performers are in my room or I am in the recorded space with them can be debated ..... but either way, it's a good place to be .....

Stay well and happy listening,

Randy
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 03/11/11 at 01:41:41 by Randy in Caintuck »  

CEC TL-2 belt drive CD transport
Camelot Uther / Anagram DAC
Decware Model SE84C+ amplifier
Greenvalve Audio Type 10 amplifier
Parker Audio Troll Magnus speakers
"Mini Me" OBs - with Hawthorne Augies, Wild Burro Betsy drivers and Heil AMTs
WWW   IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7680
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #54 - 03/11/11 at 05:18:26
 
Hi Randy, Good to see you posting today.

I think in a way my problem is in the semantics of "the singer/musician/instrument is in the room." Because to my ears and mind there never has been a reproduction of a musician or instrument in the room. There have been some startlingly accurate playbacks of recordings of instruments and singers and players in a room. But no recording has ever really been like the real thing. I live with instruments in my rooms (12 guitars, 5 basses including a full size contrabass violin, a keyboard and two drumsets at the moment) and I know what these sound like. Recordings are just different from real musical events, fundamentally, in ways that I'm never fooled into thinking a musician or singer is THERE. The more a reviewer talks about this sort of thing, to be honest, the more I wonder what they really know about a musical event!

I know it's a metaphor, I know it's an analogy, I know it's a way of describing, but . . . it's just not what I hear and feel.

Anyway, there are amazing systems that can reproduce recordings. And they're incredible resources. I'd rather have one of these than an automobile. Smiley In fact, I do have a nice system rather than an automobile!
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
Randy in Caintuck
Seasoned Member
****


Tube be ... or not
tube be ... it's a
no-brainer.

Posts: 409
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #55 - 03/11/11 at 13:08:43
 

Yep ..... that's why most of the folks I know are driving $40,000.00 automobiles and I drive a Ford Focus ..... but, they have their Bose Waves or big box store rack systems and I have what I have .....

Take care,

Randy
Back to top
 
 

CEC TL-2 belt drive CD transport
Camelot Uther / Anagram DAC
Decware Model SE84C+ amplifier
Greenvalve Audio Type 10 amplifier
Parker Audio Troll Magnus speakers
"Mini Me" OBs - with Hawthorne Augies, Wild Burro Betsy drivers and Heil AMTs
WWW   IP Logged
JLM
Verified Member
**


music makes me happy

Posts: 37
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #56 - 03/11/11 at 23:49:09
 
It occurs to me that many of the leading Decheads:

1. Don't get "off the farm" much, so they'd have a hard time comparing Decware to other gear;

2. Forum members measure the worth of their comments by their number of posts, which simply takes lots of participation;

3. On top of that Decheads would have a hard time gaining the respect of others without experience with non-Decware stuff to allow outsiders gauge/compare opinions against.

jeff
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7680
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #57 - 03/12/11 at 01:03:22
 
Those are likely valid observations Jeff!
Back to top
 
 

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,
PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
  IP Logged
Pages: 1 
Send Topic Print