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Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware (Read 9925 times)
mac5u
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Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #45 - 02/22/11 at 00:39:50
 
That's cool, Lon, that you have friends over.  Kinda funny, I never did watch Lost when it was on and now I am burning my way through the seasons with my Blockbuster by Mail subscription.  It's interesting but the plot drives me crazy sometimes.

In keeping within the topic of this thread, I think having get togethers is good thing.  Some forums have very active members who get together on a fairly regular basis.  I don't need to go over the pros of doing something like that and the cons are pretty self-evident I think:  There's the concern that maybe the house needs to be cleaned, feeding folks, and maybe the shyness factor, or wondering if their system is good enough, or if the space is big enough might all play into deciding to host one for the first time.  

The point is that having these things might go along way toward helping overcome the bias that might exist out there.  I have never heard a SET system before.  I read about the reservations that some people have:  It severely limits the speakers one can use effectively, the music has to be listened to at "moderate levels" in small spaces (no orchestral, nothing dense or layered, nothing that makes demands on bass or percussion, no rock.  You like chamber, jazz, and vocals listen at moderate volumes, then SET is the way to go -- others need not apply.  

I have also read this ain't so too.  But unless I can a listen to a rig, then all I can do is just judge the arguments, the reviews, read between the lines, then decide for myself if the leap is worth the risk effort.

I have made a couple of suggestions about "fighting the good fight" even though I don't have a dog in this fight as-of yet:  Going on offense (i.e. responding in force to that CNET review mentioned earlier), suggesting that Steve consider starting a Circle over at AudioCircle, and then sponsoring G2G's or auditions lists so as to provide opportunities for newbs to experience and judge for themselves.

I am not being critical in any way of anything anybody has done, or hasn't done, to "recommend Decware".  I'm curious and I am tying to figure out the best to "make the leap".

I meant to start a thread today basically inviting Decware owners who might be interested in auditioning their systems.  I ran out of time today but I will get around to it later this week.




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ZYGI
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Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #46 - 02/22/11 at 01:32:25
 
Guys, I just looked at the 30 day return policy and it is still 10% not the 15% you all have been stating.  This just covers the 4-1/2% when charging a card and the 4-1/2% when writing a credit to a card.

Mac5U....if more people would at least list there city/state info more people might be able to hook up with someone that is pretty close.

Its surprising that the caliber of people I meet through this site, that have come over for a listen, thats if I have what they want to listen to at the time. Unfortunately, I am not able to have every thing here.

ZYGI
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mac5u
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Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #47 - 02/23/11 at 00:12:59
 
Mac5U....if more people would at least list there city/state info more people might be able to hook up with someone that is pretty close.

ZYGI -- that a good idea.  I have updated my profile.

Its surprising that the caliber of people I meet through this site, that have come over for a listen, thats if I have what they want to listen to at the time. Unfortunately, I am not able to have every thing here.

ZYGI


Thank you for having people over to listen.  I have started a thread, "Owners' Audition List", where I am inviting Decware owners who have an interest in demoing their gear to so post.  I hope to see a number of responses to this thread.
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.:.impossible
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Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #48 - 03/01/11 at 17:43:00
 
Granted I'm new to all of this, but I read all of the misconceptions that Mac reiterates above before buying an SE84C+ and I can honestly say that I have no idea were this stuff comes from. So much so that reading about audio now feels like complete hyperbole and imagination. Either that, or most humans have more acute hearing than me.
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mac5u
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Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #49 - 03/02/11 at 01:28:28
 
.... reading about audio now feels like complete hyperbole and imagination. Either that, or most humans have more acute hearing than me.
--.:.impossible


I can't answer that since I don't own any Decware gear.  If I had to guess, I would say the concern is that using pieces of equipment such as the ZBox or ZStage is either additive or subtractive to the sound.  Some object to that because one is adjusting the tone to make it more pleasing.  It is adding an unnecessary, in their view, piece of equipment to the chain, and also possibly introduces noise into the system.  It is not accurate and that is what is important to many of them.  

Still, that leaves the question as to why so many comment without actually hearing for themselves.  It's as if they work from some kind of template that conforms to their understanding of amp design and theory.  Some objectivits, they.

The argument gets kinda funny because any piece of gear is going to change the sound.  We only hear a reproduced version of the actual recorded event.  So, the room, speakers, amps, preamps, cables, thingies of all sorts -- it seems to me all that affects what we finally hear, and in the end, we are trying to "tune" it just right.


"...I can honestly say that I have no idea were this stuff comes from."
--.:.impossible


Well. .:.impossible, while I am sure there are other similar sentiments around here, that is one of the clearest statements I have been able to find so far as to the capabilities of the amps.  As to whether one can play complex music, orchestral music, whether one can rock out with these amps without creating undue distortion, after several days of reading through these forums, I am still uncertain on that point myself.  I see carefully nuanced discussions of music and loudness volumes in certain posts and so I must try it out for myself and see if I like it. Still, thank you for the vote of confidence!
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Sysygy
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Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #50 - 03/02/11 at 03:29:43
 
I recently recomended a Mini Torii and it lead to communication with Decware and to an order.
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JLM
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Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #51 - 03/07/11 at 19:35:14
 
I know Steve has had some bad experiences in the past with reviewers, but why not do a room (and do it right) at the next Rocky Mountain Audio Fest?  (Doing it right means reserving a decent room, having plenty of equipment there, and setting up well in advance.  Too many vendors blow in at the last minute with more excuses than equipment and offer a crummy presentation.)

Why don't some of the faithful here post equipment reviews of their favorite Decware pieces on AudioCircle/etc.?  You could all pile on the raves.

Speaking of AudioCircle, some vendors have teamed up, to the benefit of both.  The prime example is Audio by Van Alstine and Salk Speakers.  They promote each other's stuff and present together at the big shows.

Years ago Randy held an audiofest which I thought went quite well.  While not do more of them?

When I picked up my FTA-2000 speakers from Bob Brines he gave me a business card that had a picture of my speakers on it.  You'd better believe I've been a card carrying member of Bob's club ever since.  And I pull it out whenever I can slide the conversation towards audio.

Frankly it looks like Steve is happy to remain at his current level of production and if that's the case, good for him.
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Lon
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Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #52 - 03/08/11 at 15:30:37
 
I notice on the Steve Hoffman forums that a Torii Mk III is out for review with the Tone Publication mag. That should be good exposure, I'd be very surprised if it's anything less than a great review.

Good suggestions below about posting reviews on Audio Circle, etc. I'm "internetted" out, I need to spend less time online not more, and I'm also more and more turned off by the idea of "reviewing" amps etc, it's all so subjective, and I find cliche's like "the musicians are in the room" etc. so very wearying and not really "telling." But for those who know how to translate these I guess the process can be helpful.

The truth is that Decware HAS been growing, incrementally, and there is now a fully fleshed out Decware line on offer and with carefully managed growth more to come I'm sure. I'm glad I'm a part of the community and that Decware has been an important part of my life for over a dozen years.
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Randy in Caintuck
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Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #53 - 03/11/11 at 01:40:32
 

Quote  "Lon" - "Good suggestions below about posting reviews on Audio Circle, etc. I'm "internetted" out, I need to spend less time online not more, and I'm also more and more turned off by the idea of "reviewing" amps etc, it's all so subjective, and I find cliche's like "the musicians are in the room" etc. so very wearying and not really "telling." But for those who know how to translate these I guess the process can be helpful. "


Hi Lon,

It's good to see that you are still contributing to the forum and "fighting the good fight".  It's a shame that more folks are unaware that there is something much better than the often expensive mass produced and "name recognition" audio gear .....

I guess I'm guilty of being one of the worst "offenders" in the "musicians in the room" club .....

As you suggest, the phrase may be overused, but sometimes helpful to those who feel that they can translate the term correctly ..... but it goes a bit deeper with me.

When I say that an audio system puts the performers in the room, it has to be something pretty special.  From my experience, this effect usually happens with very high quality recordings ..... more often than not of very sparse recordings with a minimum number of instruments and voices.  It seems that the vocals have the ability to be "in the room" much more often than the instruments.  I am a huge fan of female voice, and when the vocalist is so palpable and three dimensional that I get the feeling that she is singing to me personally I have no problem describing that sensation as being "in the room". Admittedly, these recordings are not the norm ..... but I have a good number of them in my collection that qualify.

But, the recording is only part of what is needed .....
I have heard more audio gear and systems than I care to think about over the years.  Some of the systems were very good ..... some not so good.  Of all the systems that I have heard, I have honestly only heard a very few that would qualify as having the ability to pull off this effect.

One such system was at a DecFest at Steve's old place.  A single Zen Select was driving a pair of Parker Audio Crusaders and a pair of SO Imperial subs in parallel.  The effect was incredible and made the jaws of several seasoned music lovers drop to the ground.

Another system was at the HornFest a few years ago with a pair of The Horns being driven by a $30,000.00 GM-70 based amplifier designed and built by Jim Dowdy (the Dowdy Lama).  I have been to live events that were not nearly as captivating and everyone in attendance was stunned.

Two other systems that pull this off on a regular basis are the system I have at home and a very similar system at Parker Audio Dave's home.  Both of these systems have very similar and superb front ends, high resolution loudspeakers and custom built DH-SET amplification.

It should be noted that all of the systems mentioned above feature loudspeakers with either no crossover components or very, very simple ones consisting of a single capacitor between the mid-bass driver and high quality "tweeter", either a ribbon or a Heil Air Motion Transformer.  It's only my opinion (for what it's worth), but I have never heard a more complex speaker that could get me close enough to the music to put the vocalist "in the room".

I am fully aware that the bridge between live and recorded music can never be fully crossed ..... but the systems mentioned above have the ability to get me close enough to the music that I become lost in the performance. As to whether the performers are in my room or I am in the recorded space with them can be debated ..... but either way, it's a good place to be .....

Stay well and happy listening,

Randy
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« Last Edit: 03/11/11 at 01:41:41 by Randy in Caintuck »  

CEC TL-2 belt drive CD transport
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"Mini Me" OBs - with Hawthorne Augies, Wild Burro Betsy drivers and Heil AMTs
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Lon
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Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #54 - 03/11/11 at 05:18:26
 
Hi Randy, Good to see you posting today.

I think in a way my problem is in the semantics of "the singer/musician/instrument is in the room." Because to my ears and mind there never has been a reproduction of a musician or instrument in the room. There have been some startlingly accurate playbacks of recordings of instruments and singers and players in a room. But no recording has ever really been like the real thing. I live with instruments in my rooms (12 guitars, 5 basses including a full size contrabass violin, a keyboard and two drumsets at the moment) and I know what these sound like. Recordings are just different from real musical events, fundamentally, in ways that I'm never fooled into thinking a musician or singer is THERE. The more a reviewer talks about this sort of thing, to be honest, the more I wonder what they really know about a musical event!

I know it's a metaphor, I know it's an analogy, I know it's a way of describing, but . . . it's just not what I hear and feel.

Anyway, there are amazing systems that can reproduce recordings. And they're incredible resources. I'd rather have one of these than an automobile. Smiley In fact, I do have a nice system rather than an automobile!
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DVD-A1UDCI, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Stradivarius, Ultra Linear+Evo ICs, Iso-Pods,Mapleshade:Double Heiix Plus,Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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Randy in Caintuck
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Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #55 - 03/11/11 at 13:08:43
 

Yep ..... that's why most of the folks I know are driving $40,000.00 automobiles and I drive a Ford Focus ..... but, they have their Bose Waves or big box store rack systems and I have what I have .....

Take care,

Randy
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CEC TL-2 belt drive CD transport
Camelot Uther / Anagram DAC
Decware Model SE84C+ amplifier
Greenvalve Audio Type 10 amplifier
Parker Audio Troll Magnus speakers
"Mini Me" OBs - with Hawthorne Augies, Wild Burro Betsy drivers and Heil AMTs
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JLM
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Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #56 - 03/11/11 at 23:49:09
 
It occurs to me that many of the leading Decheads:

1. Don't get "off the farm" much, so they'd have a hard time comparing Decware to other gear;

2. Forum members measure the worth of their comments by their number of posts, which simply takes lots of participation;

3. On top of that Decheads would have a hard time gaining the respect of others without experience with non-Decware stuff to allow outsiders gauge/compare opinions against.

jeff
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Lon
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Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #57 - 03/12/11 at 01:03:22
 
Those are likely valid observations Jeff!
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