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Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware (Read 9924 times)
Lon
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"Love without
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Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7725
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #15 - 01/24/11 at 14:22:44
 
I agree absolutely. . . the author is fighting the good fight. . . and a lot of the comments show how hard the struggle can be.
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DVD-A1UDCI, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Stradivarius, Ultra Linear+Evo ICs, Iso-Pods,Mapleshade:Double Heiix Plus,Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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stone_of_tone
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Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #16 - 01/24/11 at 17:30:42
 
Way to go Guttenberg. Recent post too, from Friday. However, per Guttenberg and posts-I hate to see people not trying this Amp or Steve's other Amps because constant high efficiency is stated as so necessary.

Read Randy's post again (reply #8). Ask Lon what he used to listen to his A, B and Select versions with? You can enjoy this Amp and the Select with a 90db sensitivity Speaker, mostly simple crossover, small room at 76db SPL with spectacular results-as I do.

Yes, when you move to a large space per family room size you need a pair of Zu's or RL's. Trust me, I would not be listening to my Select with my Speakers for 10 years come May if it was not something special in my Small Room with Treatments and my Cables. It was no accident; I worked hard to create this true synergy-synergy truly applies here.

However, I have tried other Speakers I own or owned with similar specs to my LS-90's and they sucked with my Select: Paradigm Mon7 V4, Tannoy's from the 70's, Polk Mon12, Polk RTiA1's, Mirage and Parker Crusader's. Actually, the Parkers need the big space and are great in my garage with S-State. They did not have the resolution of my LS-90's with the Zen and they are to dry.

My point simply is: Guttenberg was on point and also likes more power sometimes, to rock out-me too-see below. (However, the MK Torii III can replace my mono blocks soon I hope to do what the Select does for me).

HOWEVER, YOU CAN DRIVE some not so highly efficient designs (Speakers) like I do/still do, Randy did and Lon did, with Decware Amps and of course the Torii MKIII will drive anything. You just have to find the right speakers and use a small room (cubic feet) and listen at normal levels of 76db SPL average.

But, I get it, that 95db at 1 watt 1 meter is needed for a larger space and more SPL etc.....I am interested in the new pair of Speakers Steve is selling in a homemade open baffle! But, make no mistake, I have headroom, resolution and good bass with my current speakers because of set up, the speakers "work", a great front end and Cables I still pack in their Pelican Cases and take to friends and blow there minds on what cables can do (or not do/get out of the way). However, I am moving and will have the opportunity to have my small space and a bigger space to get Steve's new Driver's!

Stone of Tone  8-)


Solid State will never beat my Zen Select for Flesh on Bone Musicality.

But, I do like some butt muscle solid state 2 channel jamin' right?

I picked up a pair mono block Emotiva UPA-1's for my 2nd system within the same room/dedicated listening room. I also run wire out to run a pair of Speakers in the family room too sometimes. Lots of fun!
However, not the musicality as we know and Guttenberg stated too that you get with a/the Decware Amp.

Solid State System:
Denon DCM-290 (Transport)
Acoustic Zen MC2
Dac Magic
Monster M1000 MKIII  IC (from 1993)
Rotel RA-1062 (as Preamp)
Kimber PK10 Palladian (Rotel)
Kimber KCAG
Emotiva UPA-1 x 2
HGA SC-16 Silver Braid to Kimber 8TC
Polk LS90
360 Degree Room treats-dedicated Room

Tube Amp System: (#1 system = 80% of my listening)
Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
Prophecy Cryo-Silver i2s
Audio Alchemy 3.0 Dac
Kimber Select 1030
Decware Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk LS-90
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« Last Edit: 01/27/11 at 14:48:49 by stone_of_tone »  

Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
Audio Magic Mystic Reference I2S
Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
Kimber Select 1030
Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk Audio LS-90
Tri-config/TipToes & Vibropods underneath Speakers
360 degree Rm Treats
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ski bum
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Posts: 177
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #17 - 01/25/11 at 15:41:45
 
All the typical comments as in the cnet articles makes me wonder something.  They always seem to get so hot and bothered arguing the SET thing, but reading between the lines most have not even bothered listening to one based on high output impedance or some other technical flaw.  They think the whole approach is insane, and won't even allow themselves personal experience with it.  Ever notice that the DBT criteria of Aczel et al are so restrictive that SETs could never qualify?  As a skeptical dude who happens to like SET sound, it makes me wonder what they're afraid of.  They discount them on principle.  Their objectivist sycophants follow their lead.  

But that's a lot of potential customers to ignore.  What I was wondering is if an 'objectivist' flavored pitch would work on them.    

A pitch including up front that the SET thing follows a different paradigm which is highly subjective, thus nullifying their primary arguments.  Some solid statistics supporting subjective preference (Steve will have to set up the Decware equivalent of the Pepsi Challenge at Northwoods or something.  Is Northwoods Mall still there?  I'm pretty sure Decware gear would outshine any equivalently priced conventional system, call it a hunch).  A pitch with transfer function analysis explicitly detailing the measurable factors of what the SETs do differently; they love data, and may be receptive as long as it wasn't pitched to them using tell-tale 'snake oil' terms they have been conditioned to negatively react to from years of reading TAC.  And a pitch including the cost/value of Decware gear, of course; most objectivists are economically conservative, frugal types.

Waddaya think?  Did I add too much Bailey's to my coffee this morning, or am I on to something here?    
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« Last Edit: 01/25/11 at 16:01:02 by ski bum »  
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Lon
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"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7725
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #18 - 01/25/11 at 17:44:38
 
SB,

I want a chemical analysis of your coffee right now!

No, just kidding. I think you are on to something, especially since I think (as I think you do) the real barrier is just getting people to have an open mind and listen.

Imagine if the Decware Fest were in an advertised, large hall place. I know how impractical and impossible that is, but the key is getting people to hear and to understand that the specs and a lot of 'traditional knowledge" of audio is misleading in regards to the humblest Decware amps.
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DVD-A1UDCI, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Stradivarius, Ultra Linear+Evo ICs, Iso-Pods,Mapleshade:Double Heiix Plus,Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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ski bum
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Posts: 177
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #19 - 01/25/11 at 20:12:09
 
I kind of like the low key Decfest approach Steve has chosen to take.  It's more fitting.  Decware seems a true labor of love by a passionate hobbyist.  If he were to invest in doing exhibitions at RMAF or similar events, it would force him to raise his prices.  Plus, such events are widely scorned for the unsubstantiated stuff that is promoted.  To the objectivist die-hards, such events are veritable monuments to 'snake oil' audiophoolery, and participation there by Steve may make them even less inclined to be open minded.

No, I was thinking more basic than that.  None of the single ended gurus use an explicitly objectivist flavored pitch that I've noticed, which could be a missed oportunity.  Remember how sensitive the objectivist sect is to certain triggers.  Whenever one of those folks sees SET and 'Hi-Fi' together in a sentence they go into apopleptic fits over the correct definition of hi-fi.  Mention 'holographic imaging' and they launch into a pedantic and tiresome review of DBT methodology and why such terms are nonsense.  Unfortunately, and despite the fact that many of them wouldn't know a DBT if it bit them on the ass, their views lie on solid intellectual ground, so breaking through their dogmatic shell is indeed a difficult task.  I guess the question is are there enough of these nitwits to make marketing to them specifically worth the effort.  

So what I was thinking is very simple, just a tab on the site, a link with all the hard data consolidated and presented in a no nonsense, "this ain't magic, it is what it is, here's the facts; many wildly prefer it despite it's technical flaws; give it a try" way.  There may be quite a few compulsive folks who have an inner dancing fool just waiting to be unleashed.

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« Last Edit: 01/27/11 at 01:33:49 by ski bum »  
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mac5u
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Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #20 - 01/25/11 at 23:42:12
 
I'll keep my comments brief, not so much because this is my first post here, but because I have not heard any Decware products.  In fact, I have not heard SET amplification.

I have lurked a long time on this forum, and with the prices so reasonable, I have asked myself why I haven't tried some products.  Certainly, I have thought about the ERRs and wondered if I could make three of them work as the LCR in my HT which is where my focus is at the moment.  But there is the issue of amplification and I am not sure any of the amps here would really be appropriate in both a music and HT environment.  

When I consider my home office, though, now that is something altogether.  But I am wandering far afield of the main points of this thread so I offer my own thoughts about "fighting the good fight".

I don't frequent this web site or the forums as much as I would like because for me (this is just my experience), the web site takes forever to load pages on my computer. I probably frequent a dozen other forums on a regular basis and I only have problems with this web site.  

While Lon apparently has tried his best to evangelize audiophiles to Decware, could it be that there are others, like me, who have come to this web site only to be frustrated by the server's response times?  I know the aversion to SET is widespread and one’s unwillingness to use such an amp has nothing to do with this web site.  But as for Decware itself, maybe the pond here is too small.  I don’t mean that disrespectfully, but it is a pretty quiet forum.  

This may be asking too much, but if you want to reach a broader audience, maybe Steve should consider also partnering over at AudioCircle.  There are plenty of boutique manufacturers there and the readership is substantially larger.

I love the design of this forum and its contents, by the way.  I just lose patience in waiting for a pages to load.

And Lon, your willingness to offer ideas has not gone unnoticed.  You remind me of posters on other forums who go out of their way to help.

Well, that wasn't so brief...my bad...
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« Last Edit: 01/25/11 at 23:52:35 by mac5u »  
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Rivieraranch
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Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #21 - 01/26/11 at 01:28:19
 
I don't have any problem waiting for the pages to load here.
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DECWARE CSP2+, TABOO MK III; SE84CKC; HR1; TRAPEZIUM DESKTOP SPEAKERS; TECHNICS SL1200MK5 turntable; Ah! Njoe Tjoeb CD player; MARANTZ 2226B, 2216B receivers; SENNHEISER HD-580 headphones
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opnly_bafld
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Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #22 - 01/26/11 at 04:07:10
 
Decware forum loads as fast as any I visit.

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Lon
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"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7725
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #23 - 01/26/11 at 04:48:59
 
mac,

WELCOME. And thanks for bringing another view point to the discussion!

I have to agree with OB and RR in that I'm even most of the time using a now obsolete operating system and the Decware pages load up about normal speed to other websites. . . .

It's really hard to make that first leap into an SET.  I remember saving a few months and even using part of the proceeds from the sale of a motorcycle to buy my first Zen amp, ole 27. It's almost like a leap of faith. . . and really in my experience it's also almost like falling from your horse outside of Damascus and becoming a believer to the core. I found another path to great sound, one I'm still happily on.

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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DVD-A1UDCI, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Stradivarius, Ultra Linear+Evo ICs, Iso-Pods,Mapleshade:Double Heiix Plus,Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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Lon
Seasoned Member
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"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 7725
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #24 - 01/26/11 at 04:52:29
 
That is a good point about the other forum(s). This is a nice small pond. There's a sister site that Steve has available that I gave up frequenting, and generally just as small a pond. A faster moving board with a larger readership could help. I'm personally maxed out on boards. I also live in a jazz board and the Steve Hoffman forum, the largest and fastest moving board I read and post within. There are a few other Decware users and afficianados there, although there's a lot of misunderstanding about Decware and similar amps as well.
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DVD-A1UDCI, Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Stradivarius, Ultra Linear+Evo ICs, Iso-Pods,Mapleshade:Double Heiix Plus,Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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stone_of_tone
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Posts: 865
Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #25 - 01/26/11 at 15:00:42
 
"objectivist sect" Post #19 from skibum so elequently put. I left the Minnesota Audio Society because of the Dogma.

Pick your illusion not specs! Thank goodness for Harvey "Gizmo" Rosenberg, Nelson Pass and Steve Deckert and the balls to do what they do and Harvey did. It's about the ear brain connection, NOT engineering specs. I love Nelson's famous quote......about this (easy to find).

Furthermore, it is not about JUST Audiophile Recordings either-I own Reference Recordings from Reference Recordings and I enjoy them as much as the next guy. However, as Guttenberg mentioned, you need forgiving Amplification {Zen C(S)} to enjoy all of your music collection. Even though, most Rock Music CD's are to F'd up to listen to through the Zen Select with its Transparency. But the Jazz I love comes through incredibly. Once again, pick your illusion to your ear brain (thank you Harvey, Nelson & Steve).

Well, my Zen Select is all warmed up!  Time for some MUSIC.  8-)

Stone of Tone
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« Last Edit: 01/26/11 at 15:11:45 by stone_of_tone »  

Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
Audio Magic Mystic Reference I2S
Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
Kimber Select 1030
Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk Audio LS-90
Tri-config/TipToes & Vibropods underneath Speakers
360 degree Rm Treats
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Juan Antonio
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Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #26 - 01/26/11 at 15:10:49
 
What can you say about this one Grin:

"Decware posts the schematic diagram of their amplifier on their web site. Hmm. Very familiar... Oh, yeah, now I remember! It's a dead ringer for the circuitry found in old console stereo amplifiers from the early 60's. Stuff from Magnavox, RCA, Motorola, etc. Not the top of the line ones, mind you. Those were push pull with reasonable power. No, these amps went into the lower end models. And worse, with no feedback, the damping factor on the Decware amp is going to be really low. So no wonder that it will sound very different from the solid state Bel Canto, and no doubt it will also measure very poorly, with a lot of frequency response variation depending on load, high harmonic distortion, and not much power. Why anyone would buy into these products and then claim to achieve "high fidelity" is beyond me. Sure it can create some kind of "pleasant" effect...or not, depending on how all the variables of amp and speaker match fall into place. But it's a total crap shoot, and I wonder why anyone would want to constantly be fooling around with these anemic devices when high quality transparent amplifiers with consistent performance and reasonable power are easily obtainable. And if your speakers sound "better" with those flea power distortion generators than with a bone fide clean and powerful amplifier driving them, I have one simple solution: get rid of those lousy speakers."
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stone_of_tone
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Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #27 - 01/26/11 at 15:15:15
 
Yes! This was one of my favorites from the Guttenberg posts.....dogma dogma and more dogma.

Stone of Tone
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Sony as Transport
Illuminati D-60
Audio Alchemy DTI-Pro
Audio Magic Mystic Reference I2S
Audio Alchemy DDE 3.0
Kimber Select 1030
Zen Select #76
Kimber Select 3033
Polk Audio LS-90
Tri-config/TipToes & Vibropods underneath Speakers
360 degree Rm Treats
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Rivieraranch
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Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #28 - 01/26/11 at 16:28:23
 
I thought that many of those old console amps were single ended, not push/pull? I do recall that our 1959 Motorola SK32W 3-channel 7 speaker console; Declaration cabinetry by Drexel with Golden Stereo 800 automatic record changer, Golden tone arm, 3 separate amplifiers, 3 separate speaker systems, Golden audio separator, Stereo audio selector panel and tuning eye sounded very nice.

When the mind is closed off and the imagination tamped down by years of propaganda about high wattage, solid state, black box gear it is difficult to conceive of one letting go of these illusions and being open minded enough to listen to some good tube gear.

That said, there is a point in one's audio journey where one would encounter good tube equipment; so there is hope, amid the hatred and vitriol often received in reaction to publishing the virtues of tube gear. Maybe some of these people are not ready to receive such information; that shatters illusions as seemingly solid as the densest matter on earth.

The nay sayers should take note of how fast the used DECWARE gear is gobbled up on Audiogon or the forums.  
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motorola.jpg

DECWARE CSP2+, TABOO MK III; SE84CKC; HR1; TRAPEZIUM DESKTOP SPEAKERS; TECHNICS SL1200MK5 turntable; Ah! Njoe Tjoeb CD player; MARANTZ 2226B, 2216B receivers; SENNHEISER HD-580 headphones
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MikeZ@turningpointaudio
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Re: Fighting the good fight: Recommending Decware
Reply #29 - 01/27/11 at 00:45:51
 
This is a great thread.
Only thing I could think of to add to this is the people on this forum are unlike the skeptics out there. Anyone I have had the pleasure of talking to at a Decfest will have the same comment on equipment non Decware related. They will say if they have heard of equipment but if they have not physically listened to it, they won't give a comment from another source. They will say what they think if they have given the time to listen or enjoy equipment. They won't tell me what their Aunt's cousin's best friend's ex-roommate's step brother heard...
I am only a rookie with the SET setup and haven't gone back since I've heard it. It really changed my view on music and source sound with the difference it makes.
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