Thanks Lon. I was hoping you would tell me this if it were the case, since I suspected you would have tried both!

Lon, Thanks for the update.

I have been messing around with feet too, and also find it a bit confounding sussing out the details of the various sounds they can contribute to. Especially the isocups under the Torii.

After a couple emails with Steve at herbiesaudiolabs, I changed my whole approach. I had been slowly and progressively adjusting everything to my tastes and had a great sound, but was it skewed in its adaptation to vibration and microphonics? Components, isolation,  room treatments, cables, speaker placement and tweaks, tubes and all.... they all came one at a time and entered the "balance" I grew into from within system dependent tastes. And without more complete isolation, had I been adapting to and adjusting around subtle distortion as part of my preferences....a wonky sort of synergy?

So now that I have tube dampers, isocups and tenderfeet, I decided to start over trying to forget about my "sound" and put vibration isolation into the forefront to see what I might find.

Though this is familiar to you, it was very informative for me. I moved the four isocups near the edges and corners where the amp is most rigid, then fiddled around a bit to taste. I tested it playing my bassiest stuff (that sends vibrations though everything in the room) and feeling the amp top plate for any sense of vibration while listening carefully for smoothing. Then I did the same with the ZDAC and ZSTAGE finding that three tenderfeet seemed to isolate the units well, but that four under each with the ZSTAGE on top of the ZDAC gave the cleaner/smoother sound.

Then I introduced the tube dampers, listening carefully for reducing subtle distortions. As I went along with them, I must admit I did not prefer parts of what I heard, feeling I was losing some of the "live" qualities I really liked. The sound seemed slightly warmer, and less atmospheric and textural...a bit harder. And though the well managed distortions did make the sound appear more live, textural and atmospheric, I learned that it was at a cost. Once I heard it as subtle distortion, when I pulled the tube dampers, I did not like what I heard....a real eye opener!

Adjusted and tuned, I have a more solid foundation for adjustments. I must say, I love messing around with tubes even more. A costly game, but being able to shift from great to a different sort of great, for me reveals different aspects of the music. It re-excites my interests.

And the ZSTAGE is really getting fun as I learn it more. I have become accustomed to the amazing power it offers to taylor the sound with its volume/voltage nob, bias switch, and single tube rolls. From running the source directly through it before the amp, its once somewhat daunting power to influence the sound is now a pleasure. For example, just now I am using a 50s Seimens 12AT7. And its very linear and clean presentation allows me to use some ERA (mullard?) 6DJ8s in the Torii's input....tubes I found altogether too warm/dark without the ZSTAGE. But with this tube in the ZSTAGE, they are a real pleasure, very rich yet detailed.



I wonder if you can answer a few questions for me without risking the mania of more feet rolling. I am tempted by the booties from your exploration. It sounds like they give a more live, rich and perhaps vibrant and forward sound. It seems your current configuration fits the specs with the weight of both components being tenderfoot territory, and the ZBOX on top being bootie sized. If you can recall, I wonder, how would you describe the all tenderfoot sound compared to the combination. And are your tenderfeet the current generation material?

Thanks for the input Lon. I will likely try your favored combination with the booties under the top component after I get settled down a bit. Like you, I am impressed with herbiesaudiolab stuff and I appreciate your pointers from your experience with it.

And yes the ZSTAGE is a great addition to my system, so I can easily imagine the CSP2 and ZBOX combination being really, really good!

At first I thought the ZSTAGE might be a tad expensive compared to the ZBOX, but then with the added flexibility of the bias switch and gain, the price made sense to me. And though I have not heard the ZBOX, conceptually I am very glad to have the ZSTAGE features. In fact I use the volume/voltage nob and bias switch all the time, easily fine tuning as needed for each recording. Like you suggest, relative to other options, it is an inexpensive and simple solution combining a gain and tube stage. Great concept! As usual a tribute to Steve's skill at developing world class audio at affordable prices.

The ZSTAGE to me is a very powerful and awesome sounding aspect of my system adding amazing sound flexibilty. Indispensable really! So what is that worth? As they say.....that's priceless!

mac5U,

My system is mostly Decware at this point: TORII MkIII, ZDAC-1, ZSTAGE, Styx speaker cables, Reference ICs, and MG944 speakers. Also some MAC cables, VHAudio DIY power cords, and a Mac Mini playing uncompressed, error corrected AIFF files through a Wireworld Starlight USB cable. Power: Brickhouse surge/filter and a number of Alan Maher's cheaper power conditioning boxes. Lots of HerbiesAudioLab vibration absorption stuff....and tubes....lots and lots of tubes.


My room is our main living area, and hard to accurately describe since it is pretty irregular with many alcoves and open floorplan segues into other rooms, but the main room is sort of 25x14 with a 9.5 ceiling for two thirds of the length, and 8 feet for the rest. Not the ideal proportions. It has plastered adobe and glass walls. The ceiling has log beams (vegas) with rough cut pine boards, and above the boards....tarpaper with 12 inches of fiberglass. The floor is brick on sand with area rugs and furniture.

Room treatments: a diaphragmatic bass trap (26x16x36) for low bass; open 703 fiber (15x15x36)-other bass; assorted corner 703 fiber; 4 Cathedral Sound room damping panels; Marigo Labs damping dots (mostly 30mm) on speakers, windows and cabinet; Synergistic System's A.R.T Basik system; and an adjustable Kemp Schumann Resonator (from Tweekgeek). This is cool. It puts out 7.84 Hz. Once set right, what I hear is a cleaner and more atmospheric room sound and a refined sound stage.

Sound preference and description is so relative! I prefer a detailed presentation, liking warmth, but probably tending more toward the slightly tighter, detailed, transparent side of things. Like I love hearing the skin of a drum, or the hammer pad of a piano, the reeds of a horn....but I also like enough warmth and harmonic texture to soften the edges of the detail. And I love a strong, tight bass that vibrates me and the floor, but not if it obscures the midrange.

With the ZSTAGE, this is easy to dial in. With it, I often choose amp tube sets that have warmth, but are slightly on the bright/detailed side as a group, then if it is a brighter recording, I bring up the warmth and bass by turning up the ZSTAGE until I get slight distortion from the bass, finally backing it down to a point where the bass is just tight. At this point, I have great detailed bass and a pleasantly detailed warmth.

I think my system sounds better than the real thing for the most part! With decent recordings, in most ways, it more accurately represents the individual instruments than any live sound system I have heard, and it sounds better than most acoustic playing since most rooms don't bring out the music well. I had never before heard aspects of instruments live or recorded like this system brings out, except when I have been playing an instrument myself in a good room, or on the rare occasions where a performance is impeccably set up in a great room. It is a total pleasure to hear the reed, hinges and pad hits of a horn while also actually experiencing the pleasure of the subtle bright to dark tones of brass vibrating! Or to hear a deep drum hit where the skin and wood integrate into the sound, but are discernible on their own!



Music...the broad terms don't get it for me. Most of what I listen to is  simple, and often acoustic, but some is down right electronic. Late 50's-early 60's jazz like Hawkins, Ammon, Davis, Coltrane, but also melodic jazz made later like Archie Shepp' and Sonny Rollins more chill stuff, and Patricia Barber is a fav. ECM jazz is in there. African players like Ayub Ogata and Boubacar...straight up Bosa Nova but also the more punchy Ceu...and others from the South America...Susanna Baca, Virginia Rodrigez, Marta Gomez ...simple Baroque- solo instruments or just a few.....violin, cello, viola de gamba...simple medieval choral stuff like Trio Medieval, or Anonymous 4....Irish traditional...Dylan, Beatles, Neil Young, The Band...I really like Morphine....and Massive Attack, especially "Protection" ... Many more, but as I look at it, I like music that is very much about the instruments expressed in individually defined ways. Music made for the love of the sound!

My system stands up very well to this and for quite a variety of music. And I am quite sure very complex music would be equally benefited by this gear.

And that is the bottom line! This Decware stuff is so accurate, musical and flexible, I feel sure you could adapt it to any musical tastes and sound preferences. But especially the ZSTAGE. With its one tube, but vast choices within that...the many tube types: 12Au7, 12AT7, 12BH7, 5751, 12AX7 each having a character of their own...then add to that all the tonal variations from the many tubes available within each tube type....and finally, with the volume to adjust weight, bass, warmth and detail...to load it up or lean it down, and the bias switch to enhance or chill bass, warmth, punch and detail, the ZSTAGE is extremely flexible toward personal sound adjustment.

Mac5u,

Thanks, and I am glad the thread is useful. I enjoy exploring the details of what makes music presentation engaging both experientially and technically, but it is all feeding the desire for a fulfilling musical experience. To this end, the "language" of hearing is the most interesting part to me. How does the body/mind respond to the elements of what we call music, and how do the presentation tools effect and enhance that experience! It is amazing to me how much listening with good stuff opens doors to deeper hearing, and deeper hearing can awaken a deeper experience!



But also the ways to express in words the experience of music seems useful. So like good gear, for me, these languages are just part of the tool box toward the finding and implementing the best balance of gear and room in order to potentiate the forgetting about all that as the vastness of the tones and phrases engage us.



To me, there is no point in a "tweak" unless it makes my musical experience better and it happens to be the most efficient way to get that under given conditions.

I really like my room, but I feel sure it is in a different league than Steve's. He has dealt with it scientifically using measurements, as well as by ear, all backed by years of experience and refinement of method. From this I gather he arrived at just the right absorption/diffusion balance in a room who's proportions had already been optimized. I just did what I could by ear and within the limitations of acceptable main living area aesthetics defined by our aesthetic needs. I did use test tones to identify the offensive frequency areas, but just with my ears and with algorithm based diagrams I found somewhere, where you can enter your room dimensions and see frequency buildup areas.

Also, I got really useful education and tips from Steve' writing and words, but I know he cringed at some of the stuff I did to try to balance our room desires with good sound. Like using a teak cabinet for hiding gear, and that cabinet in a shallow alcove with the speakers out in the room, but in front of this shallow alcove. Reflective and standing wave stuff and associated vibration issues immediately arise from this. But within our house, lifestyle and aesthetic limitations, this is where the gear needed to be.

Also there is lots of glass, plaster and brick, but again, this is what we have to work with. So I did what I could with traditional and more geeky treatments designed to work without big and obvious instalations all over the place. The room had good parts too though. Extensive mass, the irregularity of spaces and openings messing up and dissipating reflection patterns, and the ceiling with its irregular round beams, gapped rough boards, tar paper, 12" fiberglass, and angled air space above it with yet more insulation are all good.

And, there is little doubt that part of my sound comes from compensation...working with unresolved room tendencies. Like tending toward "transparent" over "warm" tubes and cables, and by  tweaking the low bass back a bit on the MG944s.

I have never been fully comfortable with "conventional wisdom" once it gets rigid and rule oriented, not because there is not truth in it, but because rules tend to stop creative interaction with our ever-developing and changing reality. I have always enjoyed creative process based in experience, and stretching "outside the box" within calculated reason is fun for me to try. And finally, it all comes down to what WE like! Who knows if I would like a "perfect" room better, or if you would like my room. It is definitely tuned, not to a standard, but to my tastes. That said, everyone who has heard it so far is blown away, but I have no true audio heads as neighbors.



My wife and I are both life-long potters, and we are also "nesters" being nurtured by (and needing) a beautiful environment. And music is part of this, so speakers aren't an issue. And since I have a cabinet, the Schumann Resonator wire is on the wall behind the speakers, but you can't see it nested in the middle of a bed of fiberglass between the cabinet and wall. I did play with it loosely coiled on top of the cab and it worked, but it was better vertically on the wall…a broader frequency range was helped if I recall correctly. And we are lucky. Our aesthetics match well and she loves music almost as much as I. We will sit together in the dark room often and just dissolve into music!

So "the spouse factor" is not a part of it for me. For my own needs, my treatments, though relatively extensive, are well incorporated in the space. I had a really good place to put the bass absorption stuff in the cabinet alcove. It had recessed shelves on the right side that happened to be about 32" by 18" deep and 9.5 feet tall. So I had a good area to build the most serious absorption stuff inconspicuously. I used 703 fiberglass covered with painted wood for low bass (diaphragmatic bass trap) and airy cloth covering for other absorbers, and both the cloth and paint match the room pretty well.

I can't get pics to load though they are smaller than 250Kb...hmmm. I will try to get some pics on the site one day.

One thing I think about in this context is back to this thread's beginnings…the ZSTAGE. For compensating for frequency balance tastes and minor issues, I think the ZSTAGE is really an excellent tool. Aside from a vast array of available tube sounds, and cable signatures, its voltage/volume and bias adjustments are really quite amazing for shifting the tone of a system.

The more I have it, the more I like it!

Pale Ryder,

The tenderfeet I have are square edged. For my amp, I got the isocups with the lampblack balls. I got the high-end bases too. It made sense to me to have the stainless base. And sorry to say I have not tried the footers without it.

It was a long time ago, but I did try the tenderfeet under my Torii and if I remember correctly, preferred the the isocups finding them better in every aspect of the sound. But the Torii is heavy. And with Herbie's 90 day return policy, I went for the best he offered in his mind...trouble is it slipped my mind to check the sound without the stainless base! Pathetic....

I did go for four footers finally too under everything. I reasoned that this would provide more vibration absorption and give greater flexibility of placement, especially on the heavy Torii. May not be the case on the Taboo as it is lighter and narrower, making it perhaps better suited to three feet.

Greg. Yes I found Steve @ Herbies to be very responsive to emails with good advice. I put my Iso-cups/lampblacks inside the stock feet, so no interaction. It is interesting to explore locations. At least with the Torii, it sounds different with different locations on the amp. There does not seem to be a "best" place, but the one I like best is asymmetrical....the back feet wider apart and the front ones closer together. Both sets on mine at this point are at the junction near the exterior edge where the wooden frame of the amp meets the base material, but I have liked them in from the edges too.

With the Taboo, it might work well with two feet in the back with the transformer weight and one placed in the center of the front. This is how I had the Torii for a while, but finally sprung for the 4th and it did make a little difference, but again, it is big and heavy compared to the Taboo.

I also avoided the stock feet with my tenderfeet on the ZDAC and Z-Stage, putting them again, just inside the feet on the long length of the box, and near the outer edge.