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What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound? (Read 36225 times)
Lon
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #50 - 11/27/16 at 17:33:13
 
Great Mark. I'm pretty sure you'll be happy with them, and if not I bet you could get most of your money back selling them as the sale price is exceptionally good. . . . .
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will
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #51 - 11/27/16 at 18:41:13
 
Lon,

For clarification, did you experience the sound difference between 5 and 10 watt resistors with the Duelands, or was it with other resistors? I remember this with wirewounds, but have not tried with others.

Dave,

Likely worth it to experiment with some less expensive cast ceramic resistors first to get closer to what you like before getting more expensive ones. ZYGI may send some with your speakers, but I have a range of 5w (3R-15R) Wirewounds I could send if you want to use them as tests?

Then going for the Duelands would be a different thing, much more refined sound, but you might be in a closer value range, maybe even hit is right-on at first try. In the partsconnexion catalog, the smaller value Dueland caps are 5 watt and then all go to 10 for the larger values. I wonder if this is part of why they had to special order for Lon?

To illustrate Joman's point about subjective, I am using 10w 3R Dueland Standard Silvers in my HR1s as opposed to Lon's 5w 50R in his HRs, and Joman's Cast 1R6 total in his ERRs.

I started with the brown "Standard" Duelands: "Standard Graphite (Carbon)/Silver Resistors." Then, making an order for other things anyway, and still on sale, I got some black Duelands, same 3R value: "CAST-Graphite (Carbon)/Silver Resistors."

As I posted earlier, the Standards to me sounded like "no resistor" or maybe better than none....very open, spacious, and "transparent," yet smooth and "musical." Pretty flawless.

I ran the new black/Cast pair in my Frybaby for several days, and then in the system for several, so they are at least sort of burned in. I immediately noticed they were warmer/denser/darker, yet still with excellent and refined space and detail. These to me are not like "no resistor." Very good...but a different "flavor," that I would not call definitively "transparent."

I have to use the Casts more to be sure they are fully burned in, but at this point, for my preferences and system/room, I prefer the Brown Standards.

The black/cast resistors "signature," though notably better to me than M-Resists, changes the sound in similar directions.... more obviously bigger, warmer, denser than Dueland Standards.

For me, 3R  wirewounds having sounded tonally about right value-wise (though not very refined), and Mundorf 3R3s (they did not have 3R) were weighted more toward dark/dense/smooth... good qualities for refinement, but lacking the openness I wanted ...same value, sounding like a different value due to tonal choices. Still they had more refined presentation that clearly revealed openness, textures, air, micro detail with my setup, but not quite enough. So I got some M-Resist 2R7s and .6 less resistance was really "right" here with the caps I had in. Mundorf smooth, but open.

At this point, I am guessing that this may be the case with the Cast Duelands compared to wirewounds. Like the M-resists, to match tonal feeling more closely, a little less resistance with the Casts may more closely create a similar feeling to wirewounds.

My sense is that the Standards are a closer match to wirewounds value for value.

Here, in my early tests, I find the Brown Standard Duelands 3R very, very good...beautifully open, spaciousness and smooth. And I find the Cast beautiful also, but a little too colored for me, too much attempt at warm smoothness...perhaps that trap of trying to create "analog" sound, or perhaps I just need a 2R7!

The Casts actually sound like a bigger wire does in an IC or speaker cable...it sounds like it lets more signal density through, in this case tweaking my "Over-density meter." Again...the tastes/system thing....not better or worse, but different.

My system is already smooth and dense though, so easy to kick into "thick." This may change some with more burnin, but I never got this impression with the Standard Duelands...so I am comfortable about the basics of "signature" comparison here. They share most sound qualities, but are pretty different too, the cast bigger/denser, and the the Standard more open/spacious.

For Mark58, preferring warm/less bright in general in his systems, and liking the darkish/smoothish weighting of the 10R M-resist, the black, Cast might be a better choice than the Standard.

Making it a little more complicated, not only tweeter angle, but the caps and cap values you use will likely effect your ultimately preferred resistor value also, that is if you want to go that deep.

A darker cap at the same value as a brighter one could well require balancing with slightly different resistor values or slightly different resistor tonal values, i.e. Standard versus Cast, or a little less resistance versus more.

For example, I like a bit more cap value than ZYGI had arrived at for the HR1s (at least back when I got them). They originally had 3.3 caps, and I like 3.63 now (a 3.3 with a parallel .33 bypass). This takes the frequency range the caps let through a little further into the lower highs...from about 9600 to about 8700 Hz with this tweeter. In the balance, there is more of the high end played through the tweeter for the resistor work on.

Also, aside from resistor sound, subtly speaking, even with very low value resistors, you will hear the differences and the synergy thing will be different depending on everything else in a system room, ....just like Joman points out. Going further, in my setup, with the right caps, even a straight copper wire was pretty good in my initial tests, no resistor.

My current setup:

I almost got some sale priced Jupiter Flat Stacks based on Joman and others liking them in general, but dragged my feet too long, and they sold out at soniccraft. Talking with Jeff there, he said he liked the newer version, some things better about it, so I got a pair of round 3.3 100v Jupiter VTs.

I don't know if this is specific to this 100v VT cap, but he suggested I check them out the right way, and backwards. Jupiter has a line on the side intended to go closest to ground to help directionally setup their caps the way they like. I started "backwards" and liked it, so left them. Doing some minor tests the other day, I find these caps are more refined with micro information and openness "backwards," yet still very smooth and warmish....very nice indeed. I am sure there is more to come as they have only been in a few weeks, but 3.3 Jupiter VTs (vintage), "bypassed" with .33 Mundorf Silver in Oils, with 3R Dueland Standard silver resistors. This is very nice here in my already modded HR-1s. Warm, detailed, smooth, sweet....altogether very involving, and in a different category that 3.3 Mundorf Supremes bypassed with Mundorf Silver in Oils.

With more time on the Jupiters I will do a direct comparison, but they sound quite promising from only several weeks of play...very good detail complexity, yet warm and smooth.
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« Last Edit: 11/28/16 at 14:10:34 by will »  

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Lon
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #52 - 11/27/16 at 19:07:39
 
Will, I only really recall this with the Deulunds and am unsure if I used 5 watt resistors before.
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will
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #53 - 11/27/16 at 19:12:04
 
Thanks Lon. I guess it figures....Now I wonder about the 5 watt Casts!@#$%^&
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« Last Edit: 11/27/16 at 19:12:31 by will »  

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Lon
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #54 - 11/27/16 at 19:18:07
 
Stick with what you are happy with! Smiley
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will
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #55 - 11/27/16 at 20:09:42
 
Wink
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JOMAN
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #56 - 11/27/16 at 21:46:51
 
I'll try to attach picture of the set up...

In answer to your questions...

I started with a a low value because initially I did not like the result of the high value resisters that came with the ERRs.  In order to do that I had to go with Duelund 5W.

As Lon pointed out a 10W may sound different to the 5W.  So as I experimented I did not want to introduce new variables.  That's why I stayed with the 5W and decided to arrange them in series.

I wanted to determine how high a value would begin to affect dynamics and resolution.  As it turned out a 2 ohm+ value began to have a noticeable affect on dynamics in my system and space.  Some may prefer that.  In my case I did not want to give up any of the dynamics, or resolution.

I had no way of knowing before hand what the "sweet" spot would be.  Everything gelled with 2- .82 ohm arranged in series or 1.64 ohm.  Now keep in mind that my system still has to burn in and so things may change.  In a month or so I'll follow up.

The leads on the Duelunds are nice and long, although a bit delicate.  So I had to use care in connecting the resistors.  Also the 5W are half the length of the 10W - easier to arrange in series in the space available.  Once I settled on the value I was able to re arrange the resisters to a more compact arrangement.

Hope this helps...
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20161127_075814_resized_5.jpg
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JOMAN
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #57 - 11/28/16 at 14:45:58
 
Nice post Will...

Got to admit, you've got me a little curious about the Duelund Standards and I could do a pair of 0R80 in series.

But, my ZDSD is burning in, the DSR's are new and the Duelund casts are new, so I'm going to put off scratching this itch until everything settles in and until I get my Super Zens and they burn in.  At that point a comparison would have far more relevance.

More on subjectivity... A very good friend of mine wanted to try one of my hardcore Islay Scotches.  Before the first sip hit his throat he blurded out..."UGH! ITS LIKE CHEWING ON TAR!!!"  "GET AN AMBULANCE NOW".

So now I keep a bottle of Coke and the cheapest whisky I can find for him while I sip on my Islays.  We are still very good friends.  As Lon so aptly put... he sticks to what he likes and I stick to what I like.

I refrain from making any sarcastic remarks when he is downing his hi ball because I keep in mind that once in a while I get a hankering for Mac&Cheese.

Subjectivity at its best!

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will
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #58 - 11/28/16 at 17:32:38
 
I really do think about 5w versus 10w after Lon's and your comments. It looks like we have 4!!! sound choices with the two types of Duelund resistors!

Subjective for sure! But also, based on the vast variances of system/room setups, choices toward better getting the balance of everything we have better is the big player I think. Beyond subjectivity, what we perceive as a way to improve the whole system/room is a huge wildcard!

But no doubt here, the Standard 10w are really good, and the 10w Cast less so, even though it has obviously very refined and brilliant qualities...just may not be quite the right balancing tool for me at this point in my ever-developing system/room.

As your ZDSD burns in it will continue to open and clarify, and it is a lot about tonal/signal density. How much 5w opens the Cast over 10w, I can't say...but it sounds like you are doing some serious tuning and the 5w must sound really good there! But if the need arises, 5w to 5w, if you want to reduce density some, while opening spaciousness some, it seems the Standards will do that.

You may well have come onto the perfect balance though, the 5w opening the Cast character... their excellent detail within their smooth/dense qualities.

I have been doing a lot of adjusting these last several months too, but trying to keep somewhat on top, getting a relatively full, "burnt in" impression of each change as I go. I got a Frybaby finally for beginning/non-listening burnin, and that really helps!

But I get the resistance to going too far into many things going on.

That said, I started this recent flurry I think with the Duelund Standard resisters and Mundorf Silver/oil bypassing my old Mundorf Supremes in the HR1s...very worthy improvement!...then Jupiter copper caps replacing the Jupiter HT coupling caps in my MKIV...really good again!...then trying different IC configurations and wires. One pair is Duelund round silver/cotton/oil, and Duelund Rhodium IC ends. But mainly I have a set each of KLE Pure and Absolute ends, and exploring different wire sizes and wire combinations, and different configurations, and geometries. The cores lately have been Mundorf and Neotech silver/gold wire, with Neotech copper litz, Duelund round silver/cotton, or VHAudio's very good silver/cotton........really, really interesting!...in the midst all this, several weeks ago, I replaced Mundorf Supremes with Jupiter VTs in my speaker cap/resistor setup....again...really good......

Then, in the last several days came some more deep reaching mods.....a Furutech Rhodium IEC inlet in the Torii....First impressions: very very good!....Then a TDK 2511 volume potentiometer in the CSP3...First impressions: also very, very good!

Where I thought I was going though!!!!! The 10w Standard Duelund Resistors have held up through all of this really well! A good choice in the midst of much change tells a big tale to me.

Conceptually, it should have seemed pretty obvious, but how much these two mods did surprised me. They each set up fundamental clarification, with better speed and musically smooth resolution top to bottom.

Better power transmission from power treatment, to cable, to feeding everything in the Torii, well, with Furutech's skill at power sound, in this case, pure copper with just-right Rhodium plate, after some burnin, sounds rich, but with nuanced clarity. And, likewise, the TDK pot being right in the thick of the CSP3 signal development...a notably transparent, smooth, quiet, natural sounding pot gave further quietness and clarification with musicality. Right in the middle between the DAC and amp, this was logically a pretty big deal. Not sure if one or both, or maybe I got a little better ground from redoing things.....but I don't hear as much transformer hum, or as much of the hum conveyed to the speakers, contributing to the blacker background and more solid and translucent resolution.

These are so fundamental to the sound of every part of the amps, and therefore everything before and after, that they made all the previous, more peripheral changes say more what they had to say! They seriously improved all improvements! Wink

Thinking about your interest in going further with Dueland caps, seems if we keep adding really good parts, it can be quite illuminating now and in the future! [And don't forget the rage around Jupiter Coppers compared to Duelunds.] Whatever it is, though everything good helps everything good, everything really good is better at helping everything else!

But for me, "discovering" these fundamental things in the amps...now I see a deeper level of the likelihood of sort of logarithmic potential opening up from each great part helping the rest.

It is not that all the previous experiments were not great successes, but their deeper potential came out more from these little fundamental changes. At the same time, how good the IEC and volume pot are was revealed more due to everything else before and after being so good!

They really capped my cap and resistor exploration! Wink
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« Last Edit: 11/29/16 at 16:10:57 by will »  

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JOMAN
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #59 - 11/28/16 at 18:44:41
 
Will your comments are interesting...

Seems were coming to the same conclusion with slightly different components, subjectivity aside.  Quality does matter.  Your results with the TDK and Furutech seem to support that as well.

I started this "journey" in an effort to prove to myself that I could go from a high power system to a low power system with more satisfying results.  That challenged conclusions I had come to over many years.  All that time the one constant was... Engineering and Quality Matters.  I've now proven that to myself to the point where I'm totally comfortable in getting 2 watt Super Zens.

I was pretty set on Super Zen Monoblocks to get the 5 or 6 watts just in case.  But after messing with the Duelunds, I'm thinking of getting the SE84UFO3 Monos being pretty sure that the 2.7 watts will be ample for what I want to achieve.

I'll be talking to Steve about this, but I'm of the opinion that to get the transparency, resolution, emotion and richness and so on... it's more about the engineering and quality components that work seamlessly as a whole than about power.

That's a huge change for me!

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will
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #60 - 11/28/16 at 19:24:10
 
Yes, quality matters, safer bets especially when that quality is met with praise from a multitude of folks with good ears, and from different orientations, and different systems.

I guess, for me, it is about quality parts and engineering, but also power to a degree. But this is with the speakers I use!

In my rooms, my MG944 - 94 dB, and HR1s - 92 dB, for overall use, my 12 watt Blue Torii seems to be my bottom limit... though the next lower I have tried to use is an SE34II and later a Rachel @ about 6w.

I keep trying to get myself to explore some really efficient speakers, allowing lower power, but I can't seem to get off the trip I am on!
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« Last Edit: 11/28/16 at 19:24:58 by will »  

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JOMAN
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #61 - 11/28/16 at 22:55:22
 
I would agree with that...

It'll be interesting to compare results.

Cheers
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Dave1210
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #62 - 11/29/16 at 11:45:23
 
Lots of helpful information here guys.

I won't have the ability to change caps as easily on the ERRx's, because the cap isn't on the outside, like the ERR's and the older HR-1's.  So, I will be working with the Mundorf Supreme Silver in Oil 3.9 uF.

Will...I'm going to take your advice and use a set of less expensive resistors to get in range for my room/system/preferences.  I will talk to Bob, but I may take you up on your offer for the Wirewounds.  I appreciate the offer and I'll let you know via PM.

Joman...it's very helpful to see a picture.  It's the first picture I've seen of the back of the older speakers.  I would like having the ability to change the cap so easily.  I will talk to Bob at some point about  separate crossover boxes, for a slightly more elegant solution.  Similar to what Living Voice does at the top of their Auditorium Series.

I am relatively new (past 5 years) to the low power/higher efficiency route.  I started with the SuperZen and a pair of MG944's.  My room is fairly big, so this was great for late night listening, but wasn't quite enough for everything else.  I ultimately ended up with a ZMA after multiple discussions with Steve.  I switched from a Torii to a ZMA the day before they were to start the build!  

Next part of the journey for me is to really dive in and understand these radial drivers.  I have always had typical forward firing box speakers in my room and this should be an interesting change.  I'm excited for the next stage.    
     
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JD
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #63 - 11/29/16 at 12:18:30
 
Just noticed this thread has picked up. Just ordered 2 pair of dueland resistors. a pair of 5w and 10w for my ERR's. I will report back what I find.

JD
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will
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #64 - 11/29/16 at 14:12:38
 
Dave,

I suspect the Silver Oils will be really nice. The ones I got for "bypassing" really did a good thing here...If they are new, they will take quite while to really come out, but they end up with very nice tone...excellent detail and subtle articulation with natural and smooth qualities. As I suspect you have found, they are respected caps.

No problem on the resistors. I will dig around a see what all I can find in case you need them.

I think yours are the most beautiful speakers I have seen! I really like the solutions Bob came up with on the ERRx design, and with that wood arrangement! Nice!
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« Last Edit: 11/29/16 at 14:14:54 by will »  

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Dave1210
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #65 - 12/01/16 at 11:27:16
 
Will...the first thing I said to Bob were that the speakers looked absolutely stunning.  I agree, they are some of the most beautiful speakers I have seen.  
   
I have really been enjoying my system recently.  I'm not sure if the ZMA has seasoned further, but music is very engaging in my room at the moment.  I have transparency, liquidity and an overall purity and openness that sounds very real.  In many ways I'll be starting all over with the ERRx's, especially because the caps will be new and will need time to break in.  

Side story... I grew up listening to and playing music (piano, saxophone guitar) my entire childhood and I have a great appreciation for acoustic music.  That said, I moonlight as a producer of electronic dance music.   I spent a good deal of my free time in college dj'ing electronic music and I still enjoy the music.  

We had some friends over the other evening and we were listening to some of the new the dance tracks I have been working on.  I typically work with headphones so as not to disturb the rest of the family/neighbors, so I hadn't heard most of these songs on my system.  We were struggling a bit to feel the physical nature of music.  

In that moment I wish I had 1000 watt mono-blocks and big speakers with crossovers that could rock the house, but that system wouldn't work for me 90% of the time.    As I was getting 'producer' advice from my friend he asked me why tubes?...the simple answer was that they sound more like real music to me.
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will
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #66 - 12/01/16 at 17:48:18
 
Got that! Well implemented tubes are so beautiful. For my tastes, I have had to tighten bass in both of my rooms, with 944s and HR1s, physically with damping, with tubes, room treatments, and EQ.

Also speaker cables. I don't recall what you ended up with, but I have no doubt anymore that big cables made of one large wire cause slurring and muddle, whereas the same gauge cable that has a similar conglomerate total gauge, made up of a number of smaller wires, well implemented with good material choices and just-right twisting, can resolve slurring and skin effect with musicality. The problem with the change can be that we adjust our tubes and all to whatever cables we are using, and the cleaner, more articulate signal from cable design and geometry that solves these issues can sound intense when we have been adjusting to solve muddle. Another cable issue I have found is that we may choose cables that are too small gauge for really deep and satisfying bass because they sound better in the presence of system/room muddle. With a cable that is too small, once the room and EQ are sorted out, the cable may just not be able to go as low and as powerfully as larger cables of the same basic design can.

Since all else is really good, if you are using software, you could very likely enhance your room treatments with careful bass management. For me, this is a matter fairly specific, carefully placed (and pretty narrow) additions in the 6-650 Hz range for upper bass note articulation, a narrow Mid-bass bump around 130-145 for body articulation, and careful cuts in muddle zones, here, 45ish and in the neighborhood of 70 give or take. Also here, I do general bass shelf cuts, around 120, and a big dump at 18-20 Hz. These may well be different for your setup, but it is surprising how a cut here and bump there can articulate bass, making it quite big and satisfying. Even relatively innocuous sounding muddle along with weak articulation areas can make the bass seem much weaker than it is!

It is easy to find the problem areas by creating a narrow EQ bump of 3-5 dB, maybe .2-.3 wide to start with, and slowly drag it through the bass range. The overboard areas will really show with aberrant resonance or muddle, and week areas show by the bass sounding better!

I have to play with it for while since different recordings present different issues, but fine-tuning just while playing what I want to hear anyway, over time, I can get where everything works pretty well, and notably better than with no EQ! I actually EQ the whole range, but just the bass changes the whole range, and you may well be able to bring more complete sounding bass that really can grab and/or amaze you! Maybe!
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« Last Edit: 12/01/16 at 17:56:53 by will »  

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JD
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #67 - 12/06/16 at 15:03:21
 
Put in the dueland 10w last night and the sound was definitely different. Tighter, louder?, more forward, darker yet slightly shrill but only listened for a couple of hours. Some songs I enjoyed others not so much.
Tonite I'm going to combine the 5w and 10w and see how that sounds. Does it matter the order they are in when I combine them? Joman I appreciate the picture since I've never combined values of resistors before.

Thanks

JD
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #68 - 12/06/16 at 23:02:21
 
Wired the two resistors in series (dueland 80795 and dueland 74957) for a combo of 15w. Now I understand the positive reviews. I'm using the Cast version and did order the standards to compare but I am enjoying the sound. Less airy for sure but direct tight and most noticeable is the speed.  I'm in hour 3 and these will stay in for a while, playing with the volume pots on the amps but having fun. They most certainly have a signature.

Listening to Greensky Bluegrass' past my prime and I'm hearing all the notes.



Thanks for sharing guys.

JD
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #69 - 12/07/16 at 12:33:54
 
Will,

Curious since I am using a 3.9 cap in my ERR's what resister values would lead me to fall within that 10%? I love the huge airiness I had with my 20w mundorf resistor. The 15 w duleand total is fantastic but almost too intense (played a few L. Cohen songs last night and it seemed as though I was too close to the music if that makes sense.  I'd love to get it in between. Would I look to increase the ohm value or lesson it in my resistors.
I appreciate the links you provided to do the math I just want to make sure I understand the changes I am making and learning from them.
Please anyone chime in.

Thanks

JD
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #70 - 12/10/16 at 00:52:49
 
JD,

Couple of things I'd like to point out...80795 is 5W .68ohm resister, 74957 is 10W 1ohm resister.  In series that will be a total 1.68 ohm value but one is 5W and one is 10W.  When I bought my resistors I was told that a 5 watt may sound slightly different from a 10 watt and it was recommended that I stay with the same wattage of resistors.

So I bout 4, 5 watt .82 ohm cast/silver for a similar total value - 1.64 ohm per speaker.

My caps are 3.3 uF.

So when I tell you what the result was/is with my set up please keep that in mind.  First, let them burn in.  You should notice a change and the sound stage will shift further back.  Although they will let the dynamics through - for sure!

I noticed a similar affect to what you are describing.  What also exacerbated the situation is that one set of my Silver Reference IC's were very new and my ZDSD was still burning in.  

The Duelunds now have about 30 hours on them.  I was told to give them a minimum of 50 hours.

Since my ZDSD is well into the burning in process I started to adjust the output settings and it is now at -18 dB.  My CSP3 - headphone calibration adjustments are at 7, output gain at 6 and main volume between 8 - 10.

The sound stage moved back.  The resolution is incredible.  Listening to Cyrus Chestnut Plays Elvis it was as if I could see his fingers striking the piano keys, as if I could see the drummer beating out the rhythm on the cymbals and there was no, and I mean no blurring.  It was as if I could see all the musicians each one clearly doing there thing playing in harmony.  Voices are exceptionally expressive.  It's as if the performers are in the room in front of you.  Bass is very tight and articulate.

I feel that the Duelunds played a significant part in allowing all the up front equipment to let their very best come through (ZDSD + CSP3).

Now for the bad part... I also realized in all this just how utterly terrible the room acoustics are, more so now than before.  Because the system is so dynamic and resolving the deficiencies of the room acoustics became more clearly evident.  Volume setting much over 10 and the effect of room acoustics can be heard clearly, very clearly.

Good Part... the ERR's are a very, very forgiving speaker.  Understanding all of this has helped to figure out what I need to do next.  In our condo, that is being built, I will be doing what I can to improve room acoustics, for sure!

Now, my system is very dynamic, you could say a touch intense if the musicians play with intensity but if they are "calmer" the result is a delicate presentation, gave me goose bumps a couple of times.  The sound stage is large but not as forward as it was, perhaps intimate describes it best.  This is not every ones preference and theres nothing wrong with that.

It may not be yours but before you come to any conclusions let the new components burn in.  That may be difficult to do if you are like me, as patience is not one of my... best virtues. (#$$@&* WAITING!)

In my case the Duelunds will stay, but as my system continues to burn in I may make further gain setting adjustments... after I give things some more time to settle in.

Hope this helps...




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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #71 - 12/10/16 at 01:07:45
 
JD,
Noticed a couple of spelling errors in my last post, please excuse.  I'm beginning to hate auto correct, it's becoming my worst enema!
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #72 - 12/10/16 at 02:23:43
 
JD,

I think I should clarify my "soundstage moved back" comment in my previous post.  

I'm now listening to Stan Getz, Bossa Nova (Verve).  The soundstage is not in my face as it was when the Duelunds were newly installed.  It has spread out, more space between the musicians and, between the musicians and me.  With my Mundorf Supreme it was as if I was sitting in the middle of the venue I'm now in third or second row, or a table that is closer to the musicians - intimate.

The sound stage is far more organized.  When the sax cut in I spun my head around - it's right here, brassy, throaty.  On one cut the musicians start to talk amongst themselves quietly, I spun around once again, they could have been behind me.  Really "sneaky", totally unexpected.

Now get this...  as I'm typing this I'm off to the side of my left speaker! Stable, large, organized sound stage, with a huge sweet spot even though I'm sitting in this position relative to the system.

I believe that the Duelunds are contributing, more so than causing the effect. After all the upstream components are the key.  

Cheers

 

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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #73 - 12/10/16 at 23:13:08
 
Joman,

Thanks for the info/clarification. I will definitely let them burn in. If the soundstage does relax and widen then I could see/hear some fantastic sound.  I was apprehensive about combining the 2 diff watts but since I am currently using 20w I thought just a little less might sound interesting. I appreciate your insight it is extremely helpful. I have a heavily treated room (12 diffusers and 3 large absorbers) so any change I make can have dramatic effect. My current setup allows for a beautiful listening environment but the sound is slightly relaxed which I really enjoy but lately have been wanting a slightly more forward/dynamic sound without turning the volume all the way up. That next step/challenge can be so enticing...
Enjoy the journey and happy listening. I love that Getz album.

JD
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #74 - 12/11/16 at 04:01:30
 
JD... looks like we're on the same journey although on different junctions.

Let me know how you make out.

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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #75 - 12/19/16 at 22:42:32
 
Joman,

I couldn't make it 50 hrs. Maybe after the holidays I will go back and try them again but in the end that combo I tried was too shrill, upfront and lacking the space and air I crave. I got to 30 hrs or so. Was starting to stress because I have my family coming this wknd and they all love listening to music so I went back to my Mundork resistors to make sure the vinyl they bring will sound up to par.
Listening to some Ray LaMontagne and boy its ethereal
JD
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #76 - 12/20/16 at 02:20:21
 
JD, Sorry not to reply earlier. For some reason this site, on rare occasion, stops sending me notifications on a thread I have been getting them from. I stumbled onto you and Joman's conversation on the ten most recent page.

Sounds good the sound from the Mundorfs again!

To figure this out easier, I think the thing to look at most is the resistance value. That is the one that uses an R in the number, presumably indicating Resistance. They could be 5, 10 or 20 Watt, but 3R3, or 5R, or whatever resistance (R) is the more important number.

If you are using Cast resistors and one is 3R3 (10W), it attenuates the tweeter volume by imposing a resistance of 3.3 on the signal...robbing that amount of energy from the tweeter. A 5R (10W) takes more signal energy from the tweeter, and a 10R more, progressively reducing tweeter volume.

So if you can compare the Mundorf Resistance value you like, the R thing, that would help.

Then from Lon and Joman's reports, the wattage apparently can change things tonally as well, but likely less so than the resistance value.

Then there is the difference between the Standard and Cast which I spoke to earlier. I have Standard and Cast now, both 10W and 3R. I tried the cast again, burned in ones, and still I prefer the Standards. I find the 10W Cast have more "signature" than I prefer at this point, but it may be a good tuning tool one day!

Whatever. If you like the Casts for the most part, and Leonard is too much in the face, a higher combined R value would tone him down. If your combined resistance of the Duelunds is the same as the Mundorf's Resistance, you may just need one Dueland with a little higher resistance. Or if you want to stay with two resistors in series, it seems that 10W may tone things down a little more than 5W of the same resistance. So it may be that a slightly higher R value for your second resistor that is also 10W rather than 5W would sync them (now both 10W) as well as adjust the tone to be a little softer.

Does this make sense?

Have fun!

Will






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« Last Edit: 12/20/16 at 22:41:14 by will »  

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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #77 - 12/21/16 at 20:19:41
 
JD said: Quote:
Curious since I am using a 3.9 cap in my ERR's what resister values would lead me to fall within that 10%? I love the huge airiness I had with my 20w mundorf resistor.


Hey JD. Forgot this. I understand the 10% thing to be associated with changing capacitor values. It seems to be a general guideline to avoid getting off the original design too much...I think I recall it is to do with phase? Can't remember. But then, if your speakers were designed to have 3.3 caps, with 3.9 you are over 10% and sounding good, so apparently there are latitudes, presumably depending on specific designs.

Then the resistor, at least with your speakers and mine, are pretty much a matter of preference. The cap value determines how low in the frequency range your tweeter goes. And the resistor value determines how loud the tweeter is, adjusting its volume and how it balances with the other drivers.

The Mundorfs resistors you have sound like a great thing there!
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #78 - 12/23/16 at 14:55:10
 
Hey JD,  I have a few more hours on the Duelunds...

Wills comments are correct.  More important than the wattage is the resistance when attenuating the tweeter. Sometimes you have to experiment until you get the sweet spot.  Duelund Carbon Cast, even when discounted are pricey to experiment with.  I would stay with the same wattage if you are using multiples in series or parallel.

I have found that with too high a resistance the dynamics/speed of the system is affected.  Dynamics/speed is what makes the system interesting to me.  It's a balancing act that can get to be a little frustrating if one is uncompromising - like me.

So a cheaper resister, possibly the 5 watt Mundorf, could be used to determine the resistance value that is right for you, but (always a but) tonally they will be different and that may complicate things a little.

I have found that the Duelund Carbon Cast are very, very revealing (interesting).  In my case, on certain discs, I am getting a lot of energy (not shrillness) with certain female vocals when they belt out the high notes.  I believe that the Duelunds are revealing the nature of that recording and the nature of the Mundorf EVO Silver/Gold/Oil coupling caps in my Cary amp.  So if I were to make an adjustment, being uncompromising as I am, it would be to change out the coupling caps not the resistors on the speakers.

I'm going to be selling the amp so I will not be changing the caps in it, and they are a very good choice for many out there.

Not everyone is as uncompromising (psychotic?), and I do find Lon's comments about the Duelund Standard resistors intriguing.  In my case I do not want to go beyond a 2 ohm value.  Partsconnexion has the Duelund Standard in 10 watt 1.8 ohm @ $13.95 ea.

HMMMMM??  I'm going to give these a try (singles) not because I'm not happy with the Carbon Cast, but because the itch is killing me.  

Stay tuned...

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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #79 - 12/27/16 at 13:21:35
 
Hey Guys,

Thanks for the insight. Woke up in the middle of the night dreaming about my old psvane 6ca7t (we are not that normal haha) so I decided to switch out my rft el34 for my old psvane 6ca7t and forgot how dynamic these tubes were. It may be that I was unable to listen to tubes for a few days cuz of Christmas but jeez I forgot how much air these babies have.
I will stick with my Mundorf resistors for the time being.
Enjoy the tunes.

JD
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #80 - 12/27/16 at 16:21:03
 
Sounds like a good plan JD. With the sound the Mundorfs being that good there.... Cool.

I forgot you are usually using RFT EL34s. I have never been able to use them long in my setup with their very clear top, their kind of thick bottom and the middle a mix of both. Somehow the Mundorf's "smoothing" qualities make some sense to me with this tube.

I find the balance exciting, but also unnerving, the middle literally sounding a little too much like a mix of the top clarity and bottom density here...like two things. If memory serves, the Winged C EL34 is similar, another well loved tube I could never "get." But that is me, and my room/system. It is cool how we can find a beautiful balance in different ways!

Glad it is all so good!
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #81 - 12/30/16 at 01:06:28
 
JD,
Picked up a couple of Duelund Standard Carbon resistors 1R8 or 1.8 ohm value and a couple of Duelund Carbon Cast also in 1.8 ohm.  Both are 10 watt.

I could have compared the Carbon Cast that I have configured in series for a value of 1.62 ohm to a pair of standard carbon in 1.6 ohm.  But that would mean comparing a series configuration to a single resistor and I did not think that would have been a good comparison.  

Also I thought that it wouldn't be a bad idea to increase the resistance slightly.  In my earlier experimenting I went from a 1.62 ohm to a 2.24 ohm value and found that for me the 2.24 was definitely not the ticket.  So 1.8 ohm was available in both the Standard and the Carbon Cast.

How much difference can .18 ohm make??? Turns out a lot.  Also the difference between the Carbon Cast and the Standard Cast also is considerable.  

I would agree with Lon's comments on the Standard Cast.  Considerably less energy while retaining good resolution. Smoother, but lacking some of the leading edge attack.

Carbon Casts are far more resolving and revealing.  The leading edge attack is so much more present and defined. So is the energy.

Best example I can use is that of going from the Decware Studio Grade IC's to the Decware Silver Reference IC's.  Similar effect.

So I will be leaving the Carbon Cast 1.8 ohm 10 watt in the system and will put about 40 hours on them.  At that time I will compare them to the 1.62 ohm series configuration as that is about the hours of use that they have.  I also MAY try the Carbon Cast 2.0 ohm but will not go beyond that value.

This is simply to give you some additional insight and not to suggest that you should do the same.  If the Mundorf are the ticket for you then that is what you should stay with.

Something else that may help...   Some time ago I went with an all Linn System.  This was at the time when PRaT was their primary goal and everything else was secondary.  I ended up wanting the PRaT but not the "dry" type of sound that came with it.  Eventually I stumbled on Decware and had many conversations with Steve.  Based on the conversations and the subsequent purchases that I made, I concluded that I could have PRaT without the dryness, but it would take some work to reach my goal.  (I did mention that I could be somewhat uncompromising at times)

So that's what I am doing now... being stubborn and working at it.





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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #82 - 12/30/16 at 14:26:42
 
JD,

Have to make a correction on the previous post pertaining to the resistor values...

The Duelund Carbon Cast 5W in series - 1.64 ohm and 2.32 ohm

Currently I am burning in the Duelund Carbon Cast 10W 1.8 ohm

Because of the difference that small incremental steps are making I will likely try the Carbon Cast 10W 2.0 ohm.

Lot of money in resistors.  But the difference they are making is the difference that, in past purchases, some components made and that cost a lot more.

The Duelund Standard Carbon are not for me.   Also I have come to the conclusion that the Duelund Carbon Cast are not necessarily for "smoothing" out a speaker/system.  They are more suited to making a very good system much more dynamic, organic and natural.  However, they are absolutely merciless in revealing the character of upstream components, which in my case is a good thing.

Hope this rounds out my previous comments.

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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #83 - 12/30/16 at 18:54:58
 
Joman,

I always enjoy hearing about the journey we are all on keep the updates coming. I've decided to stick to my Mundorf's. Going back to my old psvane 6ca7-t accomplished a lot of what I was looking for when I went resistor shopping. It is something I will come back to but at this time I have no interest dealing with break in time.  
Enjoy the tunes and curious to hear where you end up.

JD
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #84 - 01/07/17 at 03:45:04
 
JD,

Here's where I'm at with the Duelund resistor experiment...

Tried the following:
#1. Duelund Standard Cast 10W 1.8 ohm - no go, not resolving enough for me
#2. Duelund Carbon Cast 5W .82 ohm in series = 1.64 ohm value
#3. Duelund Carbon Cast 10W 1.8 ohm
#4. Duelund Carbon Cast 10W 2.0 ohm

#3. On the speakers and for now and will stay on. about 40 hours on them still a way to go.  Best balance between #2 and #4

#4. has the least number of hours but like you at this point I don't want to spend any more time with these and it's very unlikely they'll go back in.  They are the least interesting of the three for me.  Attenuates the tweeter to the point where the energy is reduced at the expense of coherence, timing/tempo, and resolution in the high's. A little too dark for me, may be just right for some.

#3 seems to have the best balance of the three in my current space.  Wife likes these the best of the three also.  The tweeter is still a little energetic but the resolution is excellent, timing/tempo is there and a nice balance between "airiness and focus".  May be a little too resolving for some, but for me, any less resolution and I loose interest.

#2.  The most resolving. With the most energy in the highs.  In a space like mine it can be a little much, even for me, even though I crave the resolution and drive.  Once I move into our permanent space I'll try them again as I will be doing fairly extensive room treatment.

As all of these burn in the stage expands and becomes very large, and spacious.  However, it does move closer to you or you to it.  More of a near field type experience, not in my face though.  I like it, very involving.  

So, for now, I'm keeping the Duelund Carbon Cast #2 and #3.  #3 will stay in for now and continue to burn in, #2 will be an option for down the road.  



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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #85 - 02/01/17 at 19:15:22
 
I may have to turn in my audiophile card. Life has gotten in the way. I now have compromised myself into a permanent position for my speakers in the living room where they sound really good, if not "ideal." If I want to get the most out of the sound as far as imaging and sound stage I have to set them up differently. I was doing this daily but it is a pain and it has cost me a Deulund resistor because the speaker cable I was using kept popping loose from the connections moving in or out of position. I am back to using the Mundorf Supreme, though I have a backorder in on a pair of Deulunds.

So I have the speakers further back towards the back wall than I would like and I compensated by moving to power tubes that can make use of this lower frequency enhancement, the coin-based Reflector 6P3S-E. And I have played around with settings and I have a great sound. I'm now spinning music or watching material and slowly forgetting many audiophile obsessive factors. It's a good thing and a testament to the years of education in set up and selection that I've gone through. Time to reap the benefits and relax.

I just no longer want to "look for the elusive pot of gold at the end of the rainbow" and eke the best out of recordings. I keep falling into that mode periodically and I hope it stops. I've finally come to realize that takes me away from music more than it brings me closer to it. I'm a few weeks into my new situation/set up and I've been happy. I'm not planning to make any changes until the Deulund resistors arrive.
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #86 - 02/01/17 at 21:03:20
 
Lon,

I don't think the audiophile community would allow you to "turn in your card". It is very zen to forget and listen.

JD
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #87 - 02/01/17 at 21:09:06
 
I decided to burn it ceremoniously instead. And now I have to shower and change clothes. . . I smell of smoke! Smiley
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #88 - 02/01/17 at 21:29:37
 
Smiley Funny, I have never had an audiophile card. Smiley

Like playing and fine-tuning instruments to help suck us into the instrument sound and play, we more easily fall into expressing music. For me, loving and nurturing what the instrument could express, awakened easier expression of music, and easier expression created more beautiful sound. The circle continuing, beautiful compelling sound helped the playing to be more inspired....the instrument and music the same....

So I guess for me, exploring great sound is exploring great music. And exploring great music changes me, awakening deeper digging into musical exploration! As I change, the sound potential changes.

It sounds like you are reaching a beautiful place Lon.

I guess I am still caught...the love of music taking me further into potentially more beautiful musical expression...I can't tell how to separate them so far!

Is this being an audiophile?;)
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #89 - 02/01/17 at 23:40:37
 
Similarly, in a way this situation I find myself in is similar to how I find myself when playing music. I experiment with instrument choice, modification, amplification and accessory equipment until I find the range of all these that best suits what I play and how it is expressed, and then I travel that "plateau" for a long time.

I'm on a plateau with playback of music now that is allowing me to roam happily about from recording to recording, TV show to TV show, etc. I do find that concentrating on the equipment further than this point DOES take me away from the music itself, so for me it's time for a long pause. And it's nice to do so now. .. I've needed it.

The last two components, the ZBIT and the PS Audio DirectStream Memory Player, have played important parts in lifting me to this plateau, the former an elegant solution to a lack of gain my DirectStream DAC was presenting, the other lifting disc playback up to this new level. I'm broke, and happy listening.
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #90 - 02/02/17 at 00:52:48
 
Sounds excellent Lon. I sort of saw this plateau coming, and am glad you are settling comfortably into it. Congratulations! Admirable.
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #91 - 02/04/17 at 04:27:16
 
Lon,

Recently I've posted some of my thoughts but I have been following the discussions between Forum Members for at least three years.  During this time I've been making the switch from high powered amplification with low efficiency speakers to the the low power amplification with high efficiency speakers.

Your various insights along with those of other members have been of great help.  As a result, here I am patiently waiting (sort of) for my 2.3 watt Zen Select and the new Omega's.

Like you though, 2017 will be the year that sees me settling in to my system and focusing on music.  After all that's what it's about.

THANKS!
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #92 - 02/04/17 at 14:10:18
 
Well you're welcome, I'm glad some of the things I post here are insightful. There are others who know a lot more about high efficiency speakers than I. I fell in love with the Radial speaker design and I learned to detest near field listening in small rooms so I moved up through the Rachael to the Torii amps and they wit HR-1s give me just the sort of flexibility and character I crave. I'm no longer trying to find the very best sound, I'm trying to find a consistent sound for the broad spectrum of music I listen to and I find that maximizing the source playback, finding just the right cabling, and power regeneration that brings that to my system. I could keep piddling forever but that is now seeming like chasing my tale. I've my thousands of discs and a great playback for them, I'm 61 and I'm very happy to sink into the music now that the hardware aspects are firmed up for me.

I'm sure you'll enjoy your Zen and Omegas! And I look forward to reading your impressions and other thoughts.
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doukhobar
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #93 - 02/12/17 at 17:58:03
 

Guys - this thread has become invaluable. I commented a few months ago, and have gotten some really great answers. I'm finally now ready to make my move, and I have a few last questions.

As background, I use a tube amp that pushes 5-10W into the ERR's. I usually have them running 7W into the ERR with 6L6GC tubes with a Cossor 53KU/5U4G rectifier in my Dennis Had Firebottle amp. Everything sounds great, even with the stock caps and the upgraded Mundorf MOX resistors - I've tried 5.6, 10 and 15 ohm at 10W. I definitely hear the differences between ohmage's, and while I preferred the 10ohm at first, I stuck with breaking in the 5.6 ohm because while the 5.6ohm was slightly brighter, I felt I could hear the clarity/quality of my tubes better (also I had read other users using lower ohmage resistors and wanted to try it). I've had them in for the last 3 months and have grown used to them.

The system has excellent, clear sound, though it is a little tipped towards the bright side for my taste, and slightly, slightly lean. I believe this is due to the DH Labs Silver Sonic RCA interconnect between my amp and pre-amp, which has incredible clarity, but is definitely silver. I may move that interconnect to the DAC and put my copper Acoustic Zen matrix between the amp and preamp. Ok, back to caps/resistors...but wanted to just mention how I feel about my current set up.

I'm ready to buy some nice caps and may also play with resistors, though I move very slowly to hear each piece and how it changes. MY question is, do you think it is better to start with the  3.3uF Mundorf Silver in Oil, which are ~$100/each = $200 total, or jump right up to the Jupiter Copper Foil Paper and Wax for $200/each = $400 total. I'm thinking, if I ended up using the Mundorf Silver in Oil Cap and like them, I will eventually end up moving to the Jupiter Cu Coil Paper Wax anyway.

Will - thank you for posting the link to the humble homemade hifi cap review - so good. So, do you guys have any suggestion for using the Mundorf silver in oil, or just going right for the Jupiters.

I'm also considering the DUeland RS for the same price. Humble hifi suggests that the  Jupiter has "organic texture and smoothness is very similar to that of the Duelund RS but with a tad more 'shine' in the top octave. I guess if you want to be as close to absolute, ruler flat neutrality as possible then the Duelund RS would be your favourite. If you are looking for a tad more air at the top, then the Jupiter Copper-Foil Paper & Wax is a serious alternative. A matter of personal taste I would say. Switching to a different copper-foil capacitor, the Rike Audio Q-Cap, you get more body especially noticable with solo piano. But the Q-Cap doesn't have that same lush and intimate character that makes the Jupiter so convincing and lovable. Comparing the Jupiter with the Duelund CAST-Cu, I found there was a tad more blacker background and a little more "being there" effect with the CAST-Cu. Only a very small difference but noticable, especially on well recorded classical music with real-life acoustics. Anyway, the Jupiter Copper Foil Paper & Wax is one of my favourite capacitors!".

If this is the case, then maybe the similarly priced Dueland RS is the better bet for me if I'm trying to get more warm, and more lush? Btw Flat stacked Jupiters are discontinued and no longer available. Anyone have any experience comparing these two?

Do you think I should leave the resistors alone for now until I let the cap break in? Too much to change both at once, right? I'm thinking about the Duelund Standard Graphite/Silvers resistors, which seem to be popular here and near the top of the food chain.

Thank you everyone for any thoughts you may have!!
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #94 - 02/13/17 at 22:32:59
 
Hey doukhobar,

Sounds like you have a nice system and sound! And more fun to come. I wonder what your stock caps are? This would help with recommendations.

I was where you are...Flat Stacks, Mundorf Silver/oil, or go for the gusto..Juptier Copper.

I have not used the coppers in my speakers, but have used standard Mundorf Supremes as primary and bypass caps. Also Mundorf ZN and Mundorf Silver/oil bypasses. Also Russian K40-Ys and Jupter HTs as bypasses...

I have noticed a Mundorf characteristic that is bugging me some in the tweeter circuit...a little technical feeling in terms of body/signal density. It sounds like warm body, but maybe not as sophisticated as it should be...sounding like it is "trying" to sound this way. This may be in part that they may be a little more "cappy," a little more forceful in loudness. This may be just right for your leaner setup as-is, but a caution as it sounds little unnatural in comparison to the Jupiter VTs I have now.

The Silver/Oils are better at it than the standard Supremes, being a more refined sounding cap, but it is there even using a 0.33 bypass. The detail complexity is very good, but the overall sound is not as "organic" as the caps they bypass, for which I really can't hear anything wrong with. They are the Jupiter replacement for Flat Stacks...100v VTs.

I really do like the VTs mounted backwards. Very natural sounding with plenty of detail, including convincing fine detail, and all in a warm and rich, but spacious foundation. These are 3.3 Jupiter VTs, the stock value for the HR1, and likely your ERRs...I think the same tweeter, though Bob was trying a variation from the same company for while.

I do prefer a total of 3.63 adding the 0.33 of the Mundorf Silvers. Getting a little lower into the lower highs is really nice to me, but the straight up VT 3.3 sounds really good. And even with the slightly forced sense of signal density with the Mundorfs, I love the combination. Both really good caps.

I did the bypass thing on purpose, having had bypasses work nicely in the past, offering better high resolution, while also allowing tuning cap sound. Maybe I have just been lucky with the synergy of my choices though.

I liked the smooth but open Russian PIO for bypasses in the past with the 3.3 Supremes, but did not like Jupiter HTs as much for bypasses...a little too lean and tizzy for me, almost synthetic. But they are great in the Torii MKIII as coupling caps, and as bypasses of bypasses for the power supply caps in my MKIV.

I put Jupiter Coppers in the MKIV for coupling caps. They do the best cap thing to me...very complete and natural sounding, I don't really notice them...just music. By comparison, to the HTs, they increased transparent resolution in a very convincing and natural way...more complete in every respect with no downside....a little warmer and smoother without feeling darker or even notably smooth, just natural... more detailed and extended in a less obvious ways than the HTs....they are just more refined, doing what they do in complete, quiet and authentic ways.

How they would work as tweeter caps...can't say, but I am very tempted to try them as bypasses to the Jupiter VTs. And I suspect the Coppers or RS would be really nice for your speakers from reviews, but can't say from experience.

If you want to go with less expense for now, the 100v VTs would likely shift your world nicely, that is, if their qualities would work relative to your needs. I think they will, but that would depend what you are using now...I suspect they might have more warm body without sacrificing very refined detail, and that amazing natural spaciousness Jupiters have.

Check out Sonicraft for prices on Juptiers. They do very close matching there too, which you want I think.

The VTs are really big too, so check that out if you get interested in them. Makes me wonder about the size of 3.3 Coppers and Duelund RS too. Worth looking.

I will test the resistors again. My cast Duelund and Standards are both 3 ohm and burned in. What I noticed most in past tests was the open transparency of the Standards, as compared to the increased density of the Cast. There may be more resolution with the casts as Joman perceives, but this was not what showed in the face to me. I will have to look at that more carefully, but I did not, and do not notice lack of resolution with the Standards, finding them very resolving, and more transparent...closer in tonal values to other resistors I have tried than the casts.

And there is no doubt my system is highly resolving. I will check this out again later today or tomorrow, and see what I hear with Joman's comments in mind. The casts might fit your needs well, powering up body some, but so far, they were a little forceful for me. I look forward to comparing again.

None-the-less, I like your idea of one at a time (caps and resistors) seeing what the sound is like before making final decisions on the one you get second.

Another cool thing about Jupiter caps (maybe Duelund too?) is that they can sound quite good right off, then continue to refine for several hundred hours. I have heard 500-600 from a reliable cap guy, and my experience with the Torii taking that long to burn in fully would corroborate that. But the Torii is so complex, I was not sure it was caps. And actually, it started to even up quite well at 300+ if I recall, and then refined for a few hundred more. It definitely was the Jupiter caps taking a long time in the CSP3 though, the Jupiters added after full burnin.

But, the good thing...I was so excited about the Juptier VTs for my speakers, I put them in with no burnin, and really liked them right off compared to the old Supremes. Whereas the Mundorf Supremes were more notably needing burning...thickish, and obviously not there for quite a while.
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« Last Edit: 02/13/17 at 23:49:52 by will »  

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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #95 - 02/15/17 at 23:07:39
 
Hey Will,

Unfortunately I have had to sideline my ERR's and so will not be able to finish the testing of the Duelund Casts.  I sold my Cary amp much faster than expected and the replacement, a Zen Select, is not meant for the ERR's but for the new Omegas.

In the meantime I am listening through my ZDSD, CSP3 and HD800.

However there is a further interesting development relevant to the Duelund Casts.  I felt that the Duelunds were very revealing.  That they really did not add anything as much as they allowed the character of upstream components to come through.

During the testing of the Duelunds my CSP3 had a Phillips 5YR4GYS Rectifier and an Amprex 6DJ8 input.  The output tubes were stock.

I decided to try a Mullard CV593/GZ2 Rectifier in the CSP3.  The difference through the HD800 was significant, and the HD800's can be merciless, in my opinion.  As good as the Phillips was the Mullard is better.  Far more coherent top to bottom.  While maintaining the PRaT and resolution it took the edge off.

I believe that the Duelunds were as revealing as the HD800's in this regard and were merely showing what was going on upstream.  However, this has to be tested, it's assumption at this point.

My intention is to verify this once I get the Zen Select.  The Omegas are meant to replace the ERR's, eventually.  So I'm only putting the ERR's back in to verify my assumption, and keeping them as a "just in case" because they are so forgiving and I like them so much.
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doukhobar
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #96 - 02/15/17 at 23:45:13
 
Will and Joman - you guys are like a fountain of knowledge.

As a note, if anyone has any used high quality 3.3uF caps like those we are mentioning here (e.g. 3.3uf Mundorf Supremes, Dueland RS, etc.) that they would like to sell, please let me know! My current stock caps are the 3.3 uF clarity caps that came with the ERR, though I am unsure which model.

Regarding the brightness/warmth spectrum and shifting that to more warmth using interconnects, after writing up my post I went ahead and moved the silver RCA cables from between the amp/preamp downstream to between the preamp/DAC; and put the copper RCA cables between the amp/preamp. I had been thinking about this experiment for awhile, but never motivated enough to do it. It is definitely warmer, and closer to the sound I am looking for. Sound stage is still excellent, microdetails still present, though highs are not quite as crisp while still being very clear. Also, regarding tubes - the power tubes were actually the GE 7581A, which are 6L6GC variants ahtat I've read folks think can be a little bright. Mine are also not burnt in yet.

Back to caps - I'm thinking the 3.3 uF value for sure, and this way if I ever want to wire in parallel with another flavor like the 0.33 Mundorf Silver in Oils in the future for further tweaking, I still have room to do that as yous suggested in Reply #51. I'm deciding between the 3.3 uF Dueland RS and the Jupiter Copper which are both rated '13' by 'Humble Home Made HiFI' and the same price at Partsconnexion. .

About the Dueland RS:
Sound: After many hours of burn-in time the main thing that I kept writing about in my notes was how natural the Duelund RS-Cu sounds. This is one of the few capacitors with which I didn't have the urge to do some fine-tuning or mixing with other types / brands to reach an optimum result. In all the loudspeaker crossovers I tested them in, they just sounded so logical everytime...Focussing on the highest frequencies, again the Duelund RS seemed to sound the most natural. Various high-grade Mundorf capacitors that I compared the RS to all seemed to high-light that area a bit. This can be usefull or pleasent in some cases, but for me, they were not strictly neutral. Compared to the Duelund VCF-Cu the top-end has improved. Although a very nice capacitor, I always found the VSF-Cu to have a slightly rolled-off top-end. The Duelund RS, like the CAST-Cu, has more top-end clarity and together with that, more spatiality. Are we then looking at a CAST-Cu in disguise? No, the CAST-Cu still is the no-compromise capacitor with a blacker back-ground, making it more silent than the RS. Also the RS-Cu doesn't quite have the same image depth as the CAST-Cu. But like I stated earlier, the Duelund RS Copper Capacitor is a real no brainer, once you have put this capacitor in your loudspeaker crossovers you will never need to tweak again! Everything just sounds so logical

About the Jupiter Copper:
Sound: The Jupiter Copper-Foil Paper & Wax seems to have everything you are looking for in a capacitor: a coherent and organic presentation, detail and smoothness come hand-in-hand, a well controlled and focussed image, rich and transparant overtones, they are all there. The image is produced against a quiet background making it sound spatious with good retrieval of the recording venue. For example on Jordi Savall's mulit-channel recording of "Ăprit D'Armnie", when you close your eyes it is as if you are sitting there in the old church building with the musician's only a few metres away. The texture and timbre of acoustic instruments seems very realistic. Comparing the Jupiter with other high quality capacitors, you get similar amounts of fine detail as you do with the Mundorf Supreme Silver Gold Oil but with more weight and coherence. The top end clarity of the Jupiter also has certain richness to it. It's organic texture and smoothness is very similar to that of the Duelund RS but with a tad more "shine" in the top octave. I guess if you want to be as close to absolute, ruler flat neutrality as possible then the Duelund RS would be your favourite. If you are looking for a tad more air at the top, then the Jupiter Copper-Foil Paper & Wax is a serious alternative. A matter of personal taste I would say. Switching to a different copper-foil capacitor, the Rike Audio Q-Cap, you get more body especially noticable with solo piano. But the Q-Cap doesn't have that same lush and intimate character that makes the Jupiter so convincing and lovable. Comparing the Jupiter with the Duelund CAST-Cu, I found there was a tad more blacker background and a little more "being there" effect with the CAST-Cu. Only a very small difference but noticable, especially on well recorded classical music with real-life acoustics. Anyway, the Jupiter Copper Foil Paper & Wax is one of my favourite capacitors

I'm thinking of going with the Jupiter. So thats $400. More than the price of a quad of RCA 6L6GC black plates. However, considering I already have enough tubes to last me a few years, and I listen to the speakers every day, it seems the caps are a logical purchase. I hope ya'll agree!

Will, I just looked at Sonicraft. Whereas it seems they are only 5% matched form Patsconnexion, sonicraft has a tiered matching system for a small additional cost. Sonicraft is also overall $100 cheaper for the pair - sweet! So total of $300 w/o extra matching.

The Jupiter copper dimensions are: Dimensions (DxL): 1.890 x 2.50 Inch. Same size as the VT.

Joman - I also have the HD800 and it's being paired with my Taboo III. My next purchase is an after market balanced cable. What sort of Omega's are you getting? Have you ever heard a dual driver outlaw Omegas? I really liked their ability to handle more complex passages. I've heard a 3XRS and also really loved it - incredible soundstage, like an artist's palate.  
Joman, when you posted the picture of the Jupiter caops on the back of your ERR, were they glued to the back of the speaker to hold them in place? Thanks everybody!
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« Last Edit: 02/15/17 at 23:54:26 by doukhobar »  
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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #97 - 02/16/17 at 00:39:49
 
Hey doukhobar,

The Omegas I ordered are the ones ordered through Decware - SUPER3HO XRS.

Never heard these or other Omegas before but they have been on my "radar".  When Steve described their performance it reminded me of the description of one of my favorites - QUAD ESL63.  Love those but they are lacking in the low end.  The new Omegas seem to address this.

I'm aware that as fast as they appear to be they will come with tradeoffs that the ERRs do not.  I'm prepared for that and am willing to do room treatments as required.

I've always gravitated toward fast systems because I find the performance of such to be very involving.  Some will find such systems to be edgy or aggressive.  I feel that is true but only because they are brutaly honest and are revealing deficiencies or the character of upstream components and the room as the final component.  

The Duelund Carbon seem to take the ERR's in that direction.  That doesn't mean that the Duelund Standards do not.  It's just that the Carbons are much more so.

Think of it this way, A lady is trying on a pair of Jeans and asks "Do they make me look fat?"  The Duelund Standards say "no... you just need the right belt or blouse", honest but with sensitivity and tact..  The Duelund Casts say "no the jeans don't make you look fat, your fat ass makes you look fat", honest but with no sensitivity and no tact.

I tend to be like the Duelund Casts, and that is not the best approach for everyone, and definitely not the ladies.

The mounting of the Jupiter is a bit involved.  First, mine is a 630V and that is not necessary (there I go wringing out the last little bit).  A 100V will do and it is smaller.

The Caps are not glued to the back.  I made a "stem" out of Cork. I used RTV silicone to mount the stem to the speaker.  Then I used a zap strap to hold the cap to the stem.

Next... The leads from the cap were a little short.  I made an extension from Mundorf silver/gold hook up wire.  At one end is a WBT silver crimp sleeve which couples the Cap lead wire and the hook up wire.  Once positioned I soldered the sleeve and wires using Mundorf Silver/Gold solder.
(I did mention that I was a little like the Duelund Carbon)

If you do get the Jupiter Flat Stacked square Cap, look me up, I'll make the mounting stems for you N/C.  The rest is up to you.

By the way, I was going to get the Duelund Silver/Cu 3.3 100V Caps for the ERR's. (Close to $600.00 ea. on a special, if your thinking that I'm a little psychotic, you'd be right... but just a little).  Since I went for the Omegas that is not happening.



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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #98 - 02/16/17 at 02:08:30
 
Doukhobar,

Yes sonocraft has had the best prices for Juptiers for a while. The way my binding posts are set up, the 3.3 VTs are difficult to get connected having shortish wires, but they work. I use some Herbies grungebuster material under them between the speaker back and on top of the binding posts below for damping and support. I will likely have to do something similar to Joman's solution one day, but this is fine for now. I bet you will love the Coppers and look forward to your reports!

Joman,

I never liked the Philips 5R4GYs...I really tried, but rather than "warm" I found them veiled, too much so for me. I could not quite get National 7DJ8s either, loving some other PCC88/7DJ8s, but not quite the National, another tube "Uncle Kevy" waxed eloquent on. I have not bought any tubes from there since.

For 5R4s, I got some Fivres from a big British seller that are quite nice, and older RCAs suited me better than the Phillips too. Though less characterful, they could sound a little plain and clear compared some others, but the pair I have have a nice subtle warmth and are very revealing.

I have been using Phillips/Mullard GZ32 in the CSP3, as well as Phillips/Mazda GZ32 in the Torii for some years now, the Mazda labelled GZ32 another very nice variation on the type. I have a lot of nice rectifiers, but the GZ32 remains my favorite. So I get what you are hearing.

On the Duelund resistors:

I finally had a chance to put in the Duelund Carbon Casts back in after listening to the Standards for a long time. My first impressions are as before...the Standards sound like "no resistor," and the casts sound darker, also revealing, and a little too forceful to me. This is coming from the subtler Duelund flavor as reference though.

The blacks likely need to at least "settle" if not "re-burn" a bit, and they are different enough I need to get used to them!

At this point, I would agree that they are very resolving feeling, but I find the main difference between them and the Standards to be increased warmth, tonal density, and even perhaps a sense of compression! Can't say, but the end result is quite rich, warm, revealing, and powerful, but I would not say "honest" at this point.

This may be semantics, and this could change for me, but at this moment, these traits feel more like an excellent effort at a particular sound rather than transparency. I have never heard this sound except from these resistors.

My system/room is highly tuned, very fast, and very revealing also, more than most by all reports.

After these settle for a few days....system and mind, I will try to evaluate again. Then I can also do some comparisons to some other resistors I have around and some straight wires.

Its all fun! Great we have such beautiful tuning tools! Smiley
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« Last Edit: 02/16/17 at 03:26:20 by will »  

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Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #99 - 02/16/17 at 02:43:39
 
Hey Will,

Yes, I would agree with your assessments of the Carbon Casts, and they do sound different from any resistor I've tried.  That's why I'm a little cautious on recommending them, but they are worth an audition and may be the ticket for some.  It is fun and worth the price of admission.

I get where you're coming from on the "honest" aspect regarding the Carbon Cast.

I found that they need a lot of time to settle in, probably 100 hours min.  That is my guess based on the the way they have been settling in.

I liked the Mullard GZ32 so much that I got several.  Don't know how long one will last, but I do know they will only be harder to get and pricier as time goes on.

How long have yours lasted in the CSP3?
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