Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Decware Audio Forums
10/01/16 at 09:41:55 

 
 
 
 

Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound? (Read 14620 times)
JD
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 341
Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #15 - 08/26/14 at 21:48:06
 
I think Will said it best in an email to me when he suggested them, really smooths out the sound.  I find the music very lush and open.  The caps are large and beefy and require some patience when making them fit correctly on the back of the ERR's but it's been a great upgrade.  I don't hear two speakers I have a wall of sound coming towards me. If you truly get stuck both Steve and Zygi (builder of the ERR's) are more than willing to answer any questions large or small to help you out.

JD
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
decwalex
Verified Member
**




Posts: 7
Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #16 - 09/01/14 at 23:01:27
 
Hi everyone,

I have decided to purchase the Mundorf Supreme cap and the Mundorf Silver in Oil cap. The Supreme is already a major improvement over the Clarity, but yesterday I replaced the Mundorf Supreme with a Mundorf Silver in Oil Cap. It is still new and needs to break in, but the difference is already very noticeable. Sound has become much more coherent from top to bottom and far more liquid. Voices and instruments sound more real, I can here more detail, more soundstage… The ERR sound so much better with these caps that I wonder why this is not the stock cap the ERR where delivered with… Highly recommended. There are even better caps in the Mundorf line, but they start to get really big. Intuitively I felt this was a reasonable investment to upgrade this speaker. I have also replaced the stock resistances with Mundorf equivalent low inductance resistances. Again, the difference is very noticeable for the better.

Enjoy!
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 10884
Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #17 - 09/01/14 at 23:14:51
 
Congrats! Making a great speaker better is very satisfying! Would you be able to share the specs on both the resistors and the caps? Or part numbers? Thanks.
Back to top
 
 

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III;PS Audio PWT+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 power cords;Denon DVD-A1UDCI,Rega RP3,TTPSU,white belt, Groovetracer upgrades and+Exact2;VooDoo Cable:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mapleshade:Dble Helix Plus,Samson v2+3;Oppo PM-1 headphone
  IP Logged
decwalex
Verified Member
**




Posts: 7
Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #18 - 09/10/14 at 16:06:44
 
Hi,

Yes, sure:

-Mundorf Mcap Supreme 3,3uF
-Mundorf MCap Silver in Oil 3,3uF

Now that I have broken in both Caps (Mundorf Supreme 3,3 and Mundorf Silver in Oil 3,3) I can tell you that both are very good and way better than the original Clarity. I wonder why Decware did not consider the Mundorf Supreme at least. For very few bucks more, the sound of the speaker would improve tremendously. The Silver in Oil is clearly better than the Supreme AFTER breaking it in. Initially it can give too much high frequencies and sound unnatural and harsh. So be patient. The Silver/Gold/Oil model may still be better, but it is also much more expensive, so I will end my experiments here... and enjoy the ERR, a really nice speaker!!!

I have also replaced the ceramic resistors by low inductance ones from Mundorf which are specially designed for speaker cross overs:

Mundorf MResist Supreme 20W with various Ohm figures

They are also much better than the stock ones. All together this is a little investment, but I think it's worth the improvement.

Cheers!
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 10884
Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #19 - 09/10/14 at 16:14:41
 
Thanks a lot.  :)
Back to top
 
 

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III;PS Audio PWT+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 power cords;Denon DVD-A1UDCI,Rega RP3,TTPSU,white belt, Groovetracer upgrades and+Exact2;VooDoo Cable:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mapleshade:Dble Helix Plus,Samson v2+3;Oppo PM-1 headphone
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. D*ck

Posts: 10884
Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #20 - 09/16/14 at 14:04:44
 
Well, I installed Mundorf Mcap Supreme 3,3uF caps in my ERR pair that reside at my parents in my system there. . . and right after installation I noticed an improvement, as you mentioned: smoother, more spacious, blossoming. I'm very happy with the sound, thanks for the assistance.
Back to top
 
 

Decware:HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III;PS Audio PWT+DS,P10,PowerBases,AC-12 power cords;Denon DVD-A1UDCI,Rega RP3,TTPSU,white belt, Groovetracer upgrades and+Exact2;VooDoo Cable:Stradivarius+Cremona,Iso-Pods; Mapleshade:Dble Helix Plus,Samson v2+3;Oppo PM-1 headphone
  IP Logged
doukhobar
Verified Member
**




Posts: 30
Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #21 - 06/30/16 at 02:08:49
 
Hi,

Realize I'm coming pretty late to this thread. But if anyone has any insight into the 3.3 vs 3.9 uF cap values, it would be truly appreciated.

The stock value on my clarity caps is 3.3 uF.

JD Stated: "I upgraded the caps to Mundorf supreme 3.9 and the sound REALLY blossomed. "

Decwalex Asked: "What is exactly achieved by increasing or decreasing the value of the Cap? If I have understood correctly other threads about this topic here, a higher cap value widens the frequency range that is directed to the tweeter (making it reach lower frequencies). Is that right?"

It looks like Decwalex ended up installing the stock value of 3.3 uF. He bought and tried:

-Mundorf Mcap Supreme 3,3uF
-Mundorf MCap Silver in Oil 3,3uF

Is there anyone who has tried the Mundorf Mcap Supreme in both 3.3 and 3.9 uF and has any suggestion as to the differences? Is it true, as per Decwalex above, that the 3.9 uF cap would allow the tweeter to extend lower?

Thank you all!

Matt
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 06/30/16 at 02:09:32 by doukhobar »  
  IP Logged
JOMAN
Verified Member
**




Posts: 7
Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #22 - 08/15/16 at 01:02:06
 
Hi,

I'm new to the forums and I don't know if it's too late to add to this topic, but I thought I would anyway as I have ERR's and have tried different Caps and Resistors.  Had the Mundorf Supreme Resitors, which were very good.  Then Tried Deulund Silver Cast and found that the end result was a far more  "natural" somewhat smoother without loosing any of the dynamics.  I also ended up with Jupiter Flat Stacked Caps 3.3 uF.

Now I'm in the process adding the CSP-3 to the system.

Cheers
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1620
Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #23 - 08/15/16 at 23:46:55
 
Late to the thread too. Didn't know this one was here.

I got on a similar wavelength recently. I replaced my Mundorf Supreme resistors with Duelund Standard Graphite/Silvers and could describe them similarly to your Cast Duelunds Joman. I am sure yours are better, Duelund obviously knowing what they are doing, but the Standard Graphites are very transparent...like no resistor.

I also have some 3.3 Jupiter flat stacks sitting in my cart waiting for the big decision between Mundorf Silver in Oil (SIO), Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oil, Audyn True Copper, Jupiter Copper, or just staying where I am. I definitely am at a really good place and should/might just stop.

Over the years I have been experimenting a lot with small caps "bypassing" my 3.3 Mundorf Supremes, improving the Supremes beyond adding a little value. It is amazing how a 0.1 cap can influence a 3.3! Difficult logic there for me, but real. It generally makes the big cap better and can morph its sound toward that of the little cap.

Going back and forth between 0.33 Mundorf SIOs, and 0.1 Jupiter HTs doubled, and mixed with 0.1 NOS Russian K40Y-9 (my chosen bypasses for years before trying these more "boutique" caps), I could go either way, both great improvements. But I seem to be settling on the SIOs so far. It is so complete, powerful, and natural sounding without being obvious about being "natural." I am seduced by the vast micro information conveyed so smoothly and quickly....less so by the power, the power being more demanding, but it too can be seductive.


doukhobar.

Yes, the higher cap value increases the high frequency range, lowering the point at which the tweeter falls off. I think it is 6 dB/per octave in this case of using just a resistor followed by (in series) caps before the tweeter.

Resistor value can be great to explore also. In that case, the higher value attenuates the tweeter more...a relatively clean volume adjustment. When I was first exploring Mundorf M-Resist resistors, I ended up with a slightly lesser value 2.7R (and more tweeter volume) because that resistor sound is solid, smooth, dense and powerful...quite detailed, but the detail is less obvious with these other traits. Whereas, I think I get more sense of subtle, supple and spacious highs with a greater value 3.0 Duelund, the Duelund having greater transparency. I like the Mundorf sound a lot...just different signature choices from very good designers, though at this point, the Duelund's "not being there" is more to my liking.

I think most tweeters on ERRs are like those on the HR1s a 5 ohm ribbon. Bob may have been using a variation on that tweeter for a little while, that one being 6 ohms.

Here is a calculator where you can enter cap value and impedance and arrive at the slope-off frequency. http://www.carstereo.com/help/Articles.cfm?id=1

If you have the tweeter that looks like the HR1 pictures, yours is likely 5 ohm. If it has a rectangular ribbon area that is wider, then I am guessing this is 6 ohm ribbon tweeter variation from the same maker, but check with Bob for verification if you get serious about this.

If you calculate 3.3 uF and 3.9 uF, you will see the difference.

Where the mid/bass driver and tweeter cross, and how they do that has some flexibility. Generally speaking, folks tend to recommend staying within 10% of the original calculated cap value, though as JD found, this is not absolute. As I recall, I think the phase can drift if the value is changed too much. Also a very small "bypass" can apparently improve the sound by a fair bit as per the Duelund Silver Bypass with a value of only 0.01 uF. The humblehifi guy says these improve about any cap by about 2 where his scale rarely gets above 12. http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

Lately I am preferring mine with a 10% "bypass," my 3.3 Mundorf Supreme (stock value for the HR1) wired parallel with the 0.33 Mundorf SIO....together in parallel 3.63.

With my 5 ohm tweeter, this changes the tweeter bottom frequency slope-off from 9636 Hz to 8760 Hz. Pretty big change. In my case, looking at the charts for my mid/woofer, this is a relatively realistic choice, bringing the crossover points closer together, but so is Bob's design choice of 3.3, more relaxed. However you choose to go, you can let lower highs through more or less. But a "bypass" can also be heard, changing the character of the original workhorse cap while doing a better job of bringing out the whole top with more clarity and coherency if the bypass is an equal or better cap.

What I hear from it is more detail, space, and absolute clarity across the spectrum. Between Mundorf Supreme bypasses of the same 0.33 value and the Mundorf SIO, the SIOs "disappear" more with more micro information, emptier background and more speed. I am always impressed how much the top end effects most every bit of the sound we hear...not just space, air, and shimmer....Deeper "black" with speed, and with smooth and musical accuracy, equals more texture, better ambient and spacial information, better attacks and decays, more nuance....bringing out all levels of subtle information. The mids and bass are richer and more complex with the Duelund resistors and SIO "bypasses."

Though I need more time to come to clear conclusions as to what I keep in, bypassing speaker caps is a very good option to paying more for full value caps, also allowing more tuning flexibility.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 08/16/16 at 00:51:01 by will »  

PSA P5/mod'd Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/other cleaners, MacMini/Audirvana>Tranquility DAC/linear USB, DIY and Pi Audio PCs, VHAudio DIY ICs, Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, DIY Speaker Cables, HR1...Madscientist, SynRes, BDR, Archie's, Herbie's isocup feet, dampers etc
  IP Logged
doukhobar
Verified Member
**




Posts: 30
Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #24 - 08/17/16 at 02:42:28
 
Hi there Joman,

Thanks for your reply! It looks like both your capacitors, the Deulund Silver Cast  and Jupiter Flat Stacked Caps were 3.3 uF. Sounds like you liked both, but preferred the Jupiter.

I have not tweaked the speakers at all yet (though I am an incessant tube and amp roller), so just getting into this. Of course, I've read most of the threads on the topic, including the one with the wiring diagram of the rear of the speaker. The ERR's are quite astounding with me SE84CKC, though recently I've bee pushing them with a Portal Audio Panache solid state 100Wx2 channel amplifier with a Dennis Had LP-2 tube pre-amplifier behind that having NOS Valvo 12AU7's and a Radio Technique 5Y3 rectifier. Kinda getting the best of both worlds right now. I myself an interested in the CSP3 because it is supposed to be an incredible headphone amp with dynamic phones (which I have to get now b/c wife is complaining Wink

That said, when I first got the ERR, Bob suggested the Mundorf MOX resistors, so I picked up the 5.6, 10 and 15 ohm at 10W but haven't tried them out yet. Plan on doing it soon. I think the stock resistor is a 10 ohm, and Bob stated the Mundorf Mox is much better then what the ERR shipped with stock.

As far as caps, I'm definitely looking for guidance, but as Will shows, it can be overwhelming to a cap-newbie! Will, it looks like you are also going with the 3.3 uF caps. It seems there is some synergy between particular resistor/cap pairings.

That is interesting how you are adding a second cap, Will. I am curious as to your configuration with the 0.1 uF cap upstream of the big 3.3 uF. Sounds like you are wiring them in parallel, though I am not sure how that would work.

Sounds like I should try my resistors first, before moving to the cap world, but if I wanted to play, the Mundorf silver in oil 3.3 uF would be a good place to start.

I'm aware both the caps and rez require some break in time.

Thank you both for helping me on my path!!!
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1620
Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #25 - 08/17/16 at 21:36:41
 
doukhobar. I am thinking Joman is using Duelund silver cast resistors, not caps?

Series or parallel is a big deal with caps. Parallel is simple, the added up values of the two being the new effective uF value. Series cap wiring takes calculating....with small caps after big ones, series often comes close to canceling the overall value.

With your ERRs, if you can see the cap and the resistor attached with binding posts, though you can't see the internal connections, they are likely "in series." The resistor is likely wired in-line before the cap, the "out" of the resistor connecting to the "in" of the cap. Then the cap "out" likely goes directly to the tweeter. In this setup, functionally the resistor lowers the volume of the signal by draining a given amount of power off, the amount defined by the value. Then the cap value defines how low a frequency the tweeter goes to...

To try a typical "bypass" cap, you would put the new cap "parallel" with the current 3.3 Clarity, both caps sharing the same connections. So the input wire of the bypass would connect together with the input wire of the Clarity, and the outputs of both caps connected together also. If you can do this with binding posts, just make sure the two wires both have a tightish connection. Since different wires are usually different thickness, I usually try to cross the wires a little before tightening the post. Wired in parallel, the cap bodies and wires are literally and conceptually "parallel."

I agree with trying the resistors first...I tried a bunch of values with my HR-1s too and from this you can find a general balance of how much the tweeter influences your overall sound without changing its frequency range.

Then, once you like a certain resistor value, caps could be fun to explore. Those MOX Mundorfs are pretty well liked, so a really good start. Then sometime later, Duelands, or Mundorf M-Resists could possibly take it further.

For cap quality exploration, and some talk about bypassing scattered around in article, the HumbleHiFi link I posted above is a good read, the most extensive and complete speaker cap exploration I have found.

I have not heard it, but he talks about a Vishay cap (Vishay MKP1837) that would cost a few dollars a pair being a decent "bypass" if you want a cheap experiment. I have also found that NOS Russian K40Y-9s are very nice caps and dirt cheap, there are so many around (lots on eBay, and I may have seen some at soniccraft.com).

For years I used a 2.7 Mundorf M-resist resistor followed by a 3.3 Mundorf Supreme with a 0.1 K40Y-9 bypass in parallel, and another 0.1 K40 as a literal bypass. With these HR-1 and my system, I tended to prefer both, the extra one a complete "bypass" of the resistor and caps. I ran a 0.1 K40Y-9 from the resistor "input" direct to the cap "output" post. As far as I can tell (and hear), the new cap was then functioning separate from the resistor and regular caps, literally going around them.

I just really like whatever this extra "literal bypass" does. I started my recent experiments with a Duelund 3.0 Standard Cast resistor>0.33 Mundorf SIO in parallel with the 3.3 Supreme, and a 0.1 Jupiter HT going around the lot, direct from speaker wire to tweeter wire via the binding post setup. I am back there now with all burned in and liking it...at least for now. Time will tell.

I don't know how this works, as calculating this cap value... 0.1 with the 5 ohm tweeter, is only supposed to work down to 318000 hz!!!! I am obviously missing something, as this is well above our "hearing" but I can definitely hear more ease and clarity in the highs with this little cap in. Maybe it is sort of a convoluted "parallel" arrangement.

If you go with new 3.3 caps, I have not had enough experience to recommend one or another. I know the Mundorf Mcap Supreme is a very good mid-level cap and that I liked it better than Clarity SE, Solen, Obligotto Premium and Auricaps, but that is limited and my system/tastes. The Mundorf Supreme seems a really good cap for "bypassing," my main experience. But clearly a few others in this thread like the SIOs and Jupiters.

Also, these seem to be common favorites across speakers, Duelund, Mundorf, Jupiter, Audyn, being several of those.

If you take some time to read about the better rated caps in the HumbleHiFi post, though he is using different speakers, by comparing qualities he hears, you may get some sense of what you might prefer...starting with his comments on the Clarity cap you have.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 08/17/16 at 23:55:49 by will »  

PSA P5/mod'd Brickwall/Shunyata Defender/other cleaners, MacMini/Audirvana>Tranquility DAC/linear USB, DIY and Pi Audio PCs, VHAudio DIY ICs, Jupiter CSP3, Torii MKIV, DIY Speaker Cables, HR1...Madscientist, SynRes, BDR, Archie's, Herbie's isocup feet, dampers etc
  IP Logged
JOMAN
Verified Member
**




Posts: 7
Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #26 - 08/27/16 at 01:22:33
 
Hi doukhobar,

Will is correct.. the Duelund is a carbon cast silver lead resistor, 0R68. The cap (Jupiter) is a keeper for me, but I may experiment with resistor values once I get my ZDSD.  

It's a long story.  I am replacing everything with Decware components and shortly should have the ZDSD, which will replace a Lavry DA11. Add the  CSP3, and keep the ERR's which I have.

For now I will continue to use my Cary Rocket 88R amp which is heavily updated.  

I expect that these changes and additions will significantly affect the 'sound' and so will not change anything that I have done with the caps and resistors on the ERR's.

The final step will be a Decware amp or amps, but that is going to be some time down the road.

Hope this helps
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
JOMAN
Verified Member
**




Posts: 7
Re: What capacitor should I use to upgrade sound?
Reply #27 - 08/27/16 at 04:23:54
 
doukhobar, I wanted to clarify my comment in the previous post about not further experimenting with resistors and caps.

Like Will, I'm in a good place, in my case with the Duelund resistors and Jupiter Flatstacked caps.  I was thinking about experimenting with different values of resistors in small increments.  I would still continue to use Duelund Carbon Cast just different values.  I would not change the Jupiter caps.

I decided against that because of the changes that I am making in my system.  Once these changes are made and the components burn in I will then determine whether or not I will experiment with Duelund resistors of different values.

Cheers.

Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print