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Tube rolling the CSP2 (Read 15364 times)
will
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Re: Tube rolling the CSP2
Reply #50 - 03/05/15 at 00:50:29
 
Hey Mark. Nice you have some handy to try. I tend to get more irritated by the upper mids and lower highs, I think the area the BB seems to emphasize a bit, at least in the context of their particular balance and sound. Those Omegas and monos sound less forgiving than the torii and Hr-1s. Part of BBs character compared to the 7308s seems to be its more open, textured and more feathery character...softer and mellower than 6922s though clear. Even though the American Amperex are mellow for the type, they are so articulate and powerful, you may be onto something. Hope so. Sounds like some fun testing all around. I'll be interested in what you hear.
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« Last Edit: 03/05/15 at 00:57:05 by will »  

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mark58
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Re: Tube rolling the CSP2
Reply #51 - 03/05/15 at 01:20:38
 
Will, I won't be trying the Bugle Boys tonight.  The 15 ohm resistors are to much tweeter attenuation in the HR-1s as I suspected but I'm not going to have enough time tonight to investigate more LPs with it...so the BBs will have to wait.

The Zu Audio Souls with the Amperex 7303's as inputs in the Monos are perfect. The Souls with the Monos is a bit warmer and forgiving combo.  My favorite in my second system.

I'm going to set up my Taboo and Audeze cans in the Den now to watch and listen to a live feed of a benifit here in Dallas called "Cancer Blows", it was sold out.  Doc Sevirnsen and Aurturo Sandavol are two of many to be playing with the UNT One O'clock Lab Band.  Mark.


https://www.facebook.com/pages/Cancer-Blows/770784656278095
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« Last Edit: 03/05/15 at 02:25:13 by mark58 »  

"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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will
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Re: Tube rolling the CSP2
Reply #52 - 03/05/15 at 02:29:18
 
Wow Mark, you have regular audio playground! Sounds like a lot of fun!
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« Last Edit: 03/05/15 at 02:29:47 by will »  

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Luis
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Re: Tube rolling the CSP2
Reply #53 - 03/06/15 at 16:57:32
 
Sure it helps Will! thanks. Luis
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will
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Re: Tube rolling the CSP2
Reply #54 - 03/10/15 at 02:23:13
 
This PCC88 input is interesting. I alway find a point at which the CSP3 is doing its thing too much for my tastes. Often I hear it better when I am not in the listening room. Just too much clarity, articulation, and dynamics... the effect can be seductive at first, but then I hear it sort of like the music is being dissected by the power and spacious dynamics. As I get used to this tube I am moving settings in the opposite direction from when I first changed to the PCC88 from the Amperex 7308.

It seems the generalized PCC88 character is similar to a lot of what the CSP3 does on its own, open spaciousness, inner detail, articulation, powerful dynamics. With a revealing tube set, the tube can be a little tricky to get "just right."

I am still exploring, mainly the silver pot balance... I tried different rectifiers, and that was interesting, but this GE labelled 5R4GY is just so alive and complete, it ends up back in, though its dynamics and clean transparency can make it tricky too. With 7308s I Last ended up with the front pots on 9 and the back two on 7 or 8.

With a Mullard 7DJ8 input I have in now, I first raised the back two pots to 9, but now it looks like I am heading back to 9-10 in front, and 7 in back???

I don't know where it will end up, but there is a lot good about PCC88s, and I like it when a change forces me to explore a different CSP3 balance....I get to learn in the process and lots of times end up with better sound than before!


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« Last Edit: 03/10/15 at 02:28:38 by will »  

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Luis
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Re: Tube rolling the CSP2
Reply #55 - 03/10/15 at 20:52:24
 
A lot to learn and enjoy in the process Will! I usually keep my CSP2+ with the volume around 10-12 with the inputs wide open and the outputs at 3-5, this is with a RCA 5Y3-GT, 2x6n1p-ev and the BB 6dj8. Luis
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will
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Re: Tube rolling the CSP2
Reply #56 - 03/10/15 at 22:21:43
 
Hey Luis. Wow, those are pretty low key settings, and with a pretty low key rectifier too.

I wonder how the CSP2+ and CSP3 compare. When I got the CSP3 first, with stock caps and a little different electronics I think I used it with the front pots on 9 and the back on 5. Mine was #3 and the pre may have changed later. I sent mine back since it was not compatible with most tubes in the second position. Steve modded it to be more accepting of tubes other than 6N1P and put in Jupiter caps. Since then I have liked it higher for main volume and the second pots and this is what I wonder about...

I don't really think this matters that much though. I am just realizing it may be good for me to revisit these settings now and then, especially with notable tube changes. And it is interesting and fun!
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« Last Edit: 03/10/15 at 22:22:12 by will »  

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Archie
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Re: Tube rolling the CSP2
Reply #57 - 03/10/15 at 22:46:01
 
I thought they looked low too but not if he is referring to the face of a clock.  ?
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JD
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Re: Tube rolling the CSP2
Reply #58 - 03/11/15 at 00:54:23
 
I've recently been playing with the inputs and outputs on my CSP2+ and found it's synergy or lack of within my system has a lot to do with my rectifier(s) of choice in both this preamp but more importantly in the TORII III. As a result I've gone back to early 50's RCA 5u4g in the ZP3, CSP2+ and the TORII III. I love the precise and direct sound produced by my early 40's 5r4gy double getters but I needed to make too many adjustment based on artist, recording and sometimes song to song...became too tedious.  I currently have my inputs dialed down 2 spots and my outputs dialed down 3-4 on the CSP2+.  This is mainly while listening to my magnum dynalab tube fm tuner.  When I'm listening to vinyl I often toy with them more often, turning down inputs more when playing classical, especially chamber music while pop and world music gets the inputs bumped up.

JD
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Syd
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Re: Tube rolling the CSP2
Reply #59 - 03/11/15 at 13:22:03
 
Thats interesting about trying to tailor the sound with tubes, sometimes track by track, JD.
I`m burning in 4 6P3S-E in my Rachaels. With around 40 hrs on them, and at the moment on a cd loop as I write. They take each album, and put a `spin` on them. Stuff gets highlighted, not as per usual that I`m used to. Not just instruments but essence. Big word essence, hifalutin` if applied to audio, but thats the only way I can nail it. The tubes may level out with more hours, and Mark did say they could need 100hrs+. I  wouldn`t roll tubes per track.....I`d be up and down like a ........ Smiley
So the CSP2+`s volume is 9-10 o`clock. Pre ins back 1 click. Pre outs back 2-3 clicks. I`ve been using the pre outs to add some heft when needed.
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« Last Edit: 03/11/15 at 13:23:04 by Syd »  

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JD
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Re: Tube rolling the CSP2
Reply #60 - 03/11/15 at 13:38:27
 
I really love the ability to make so many adjustments on the CSP2+ and the TORII III. With that said it's also not for the faint of heart because the amount of adjustments can be overwhelming.  I enjoy buying tubes and figuring out what works and sounds best at the time. I've realized my mood and the temp/humidity plays a large role as well in my listening environment.

Happy Listening

JD
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will
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Re: Tube rolling the CSP2
Reply #61 - 03/11/15 at 19:36:37
 
JD, I agree, rectifiers are amazing tuning tools, and that the RCA 50s 5U4G (at least the ST shape) is a great all around rectifier. Also that the double getter 5R4GY can be demanding if not in the right company. It sounds like you and Syd's CSP2+ settings are pretty close to what I have been liking too. Interesting dialing back the input a bit with classical. Is this to calm the edges a bit? I would not want tubes sets that made me adjust based on artist either.

Syd, essence sounds like a good thing for making music...those tubes are their own thing for sure!

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« Last Edit: 03/11/15 at 19:37:42 by will »  

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JD
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Re: Tube rolling the CSP2
Reply #62 - 03/11/15 at 21:57:34
 
Will, yeah softening the edges some in regard to the wild fluctuations of volume in a lot of classical recordings.  I'm still in the experimental stages of turning down the inputs, but in most pieces my favorite parts are the various crescendos in a piece not always the climax. By lowering the inputs I feel I enjoy the crescendos more while not having to jump up and turn down the tune as it reaches it's climax as to not upset the neighbors, landlord or my ears.

JD
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will
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Re: Tube rolling the CSP2
Reply #63 - 03/11/15 at 22:19:08
 
Right JD, this is interesting. Thanks for the tip. I will play with that some. I am looking for settings I stay with (at least based on the particular tube set), but I think this is similar to one of my most difficult tuning areas. Especially with vivid and dynamic tubes like the early RCA 5R4GY, and the MKIV and CSP3s dynamic nature, peaks from really clean and dynamic recordings or movies can get scary.
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« Last Edit: 03/11/15 at 22:19:58 by will »  

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Luis
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Re: Tube rolling the CSP2
Reply #64 - 03/15/15 at 22:11:40
 
Hi all, right now (listening to Sonny Stitt "Sits In The Oscar Peterson Trio") with the CSP2+ inputs 10 clicks/10, outputs 5/10 and volume 13/20 and the SE34I.2 with the volumes at 10/10. Luis
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Lon
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Re: Tube rolling the CSP2
Reply #65 - 04/23/16 at 13:44:36
 
I discovered a trio of NOS Valvo E288CC tubes in boxes in a stash I haven't visited in years, I bought them as Lord Soth had such good experience with a pair as drivers in his preamp in '13, I think I popped them in but was in love with the 6N1P tubes then (I actually think this was because of the power treatment and interconnect choices I had then) and didn't really get them broken in and put them away. In the meantime I introduced regenerated power and better interconnects and fell in love with the Amperex 7308s Mark tugged my coat-tails toward, and then found an RCA labeled Siemens 7308 and a matched pair of unbranded 7308s that really worked well in my CSP2+. But I still found a sort of thickening of the sound with the CSP2+ that worked well with the ZP3 and the Denon universal player but that I don't prefer with the PS Audio DirectStream DAC (my main source). So I thought I would try out these beautiful pristine Valvos.

I have about 150 hours of use on them now and they're wonderful tubes. Just as the bottle type regulators and rectifier tubes seem to offer a sort of texture and clarity that the shorter straight shouldered tubes don't in my system, these taller preamp tubes offer an appealing onion of texture and a bell-like clarity. This gives a spaciousness that is clear and crisp and breathes without the slight cloak of midrange warmth the 7308s brought to the preamp. I confess I still prefer the DirectStream directly into the Torii and that doesn't surprise me. But LP playback and DVD and Blu-ray and SACD disc playback are a bit improved, with a touch more macro-dynamic contrast and a bit less congestion and a "compressed" feeling to the sound than any other tube complement in the CSP2+ has brought. Headphone listening is also very pleasant, a bit less of an "in the head" experience. I rolled a few rectifier types but keep coming back to the old RCA 5Y3GT tubes I prize--in the CSP2 and CSP2+ and ZP3 these just present the most "accurate" and tonally balanced sound in my system.

I tried two of the trio of E288CC tubes in the Torii in place of the Amperex 7308s . . . . Interesting difference, ultimately there's a touch of warmth to the Amperex 7308s that I am so used to that I wanted back, but the Valvos are truly suitable for the Torii and I may try them again with more hours on the tubes. I can recommend this tube type for the CSP2+ and may try a different brand at some point in the future.
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« Last Edit: 04/23/16 at 13:47:08 by Lon »  

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will
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Re: Tube rolling the CSP2
Reply #66 - 04/23/16 at 19:04:52
 
I don't get a thickened sound with the CSP3 but all the tubes are chosen to reveal "transparency" and avoid density that is thick or dark. Also, my cables are not particularly warm, though not cool either...I choose them for "transparency," "accuracy," and "musicality." I seem to start with balance and lucidity, and then warm it up a little if needed, but only with tubes that do little or no masking. It is interesting how much the "foundation" effects the choices and results. I use the same basic method with the Torii also...open, spacious, but with balance, body and a little warmth.

I have liked the E288CC in the CSP3 before, but from my usual open/spacious foundation, it is so open, dynamic and powerful, I usually need to compensate with some warmth and calming it down a little elsewhere, so I can see why a 5Y3GT came back in with your experiments.

I have one pair labelled Valvo E288CC that are Siemens made. The maker is clear on this tube with the date code stamped on an internal shield. I have another with a simple red E288CC and nothing else, that is supposed to be Siemens made also and does look almost exactly the same except the stamped shield, so I am guessing it is Siemens but a different vintage... I thought I remembered a Phillips labelled pair that also looked the same. I can't find that pair though. Maybe I hid it in the workshop system somewhere, or I may be making that up#$%^&*().... Anyway I wonder if Siemens made most of them or if those are just more available.

I used an American Amperex 7308 in the input of the CSP3 for quite a while with either open PCC88s...or Mullard made, Phillips labelled E188CCs, Phillips labelled E88CC SQs (also Mullard), or similarly articulate and balanced tubes for outputs. Here, all of these are open but friendly. I liked the American Amperex, with great midrange clarity and texture, bass response, and nice "warmth" that does not cause spaciousness degradation in the right company...But finally it is a little veiled in micro information for me...mostly on top, so I don't use it anymore.

Also, in this foundation, an early RCA 5Y3GT always sounds good to me at first, but finally a little unnatural...a little restrained and held back, but I have not tried it with the big E288CCs!

The tubes staying in the CSP3 lately here are a 60's Phillips PCC88 in front, a pair of early 60's Valvo E88CC (similarly articulate and spacious to the E2s, but mellower) and a warm but revealing Fivre GZ32 for a rectifier.

It is fun to watch things shift and change and to notice a system develop, finally perhaps resulting in similar qualities but from different approaches...everything based on everything else.

It has been a little surprising to me to see you shifting toward more open tubes. Makes sense with your front end change, noise work, and cable changes. I also wonder if your Austin room may have been biased a little bright and away from warmth/bass comparatively. It is all fun!

Wink
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« Last Edit: 04/23/16 at 19:11:18 by will »  

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Lon
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Re: Tube rolling the CSP2
Reply #67 - 04/23/16 at 19:23:28
 
The room change may have a lot to do with it. I've never had true transparency with the CSP2+ and I get a thickening which I hear and think of as compression when the output controls are high, I run them mid to low with my sources (though I did run them higher with earlier sources). Anyway I do NOT like to keep rolling tubes and I do shy away from the really revealing of the innermost detail because most of the material I listen to just doesn't sound its best to me in that sort of a complement. I'm glad I dug these Valvos out (can't see Siemens anywhere on them but they look as if they might be) and I'll be keeping them in (my fondest wish is to have tubes that really do what I want in th system and just leave them be!)

It's interesting that of all the tube rolling I've done lately the tubes that had the biggest impact and won't be going anywhere are the Arcturus 0B3s in the Torii. They just impart an ease and openness that no other 0B3 or 0A3 can or does (I know that 0C3 and 0D3 aren't a good fit for my system). I hope these two OLD tubes last forever! They seem to be the lynchpin that ties my tube complements all together.
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will
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Re: Tube rolling the CSP2
Reply #68 - 04/23/16 at 19:39:03
 
Interesting the Arcturis OB3s. I remember hearing from Brendan at Tube World that they were all made by Sylvania. And all I have with different labels do look like only two different tube constructions from the same company. According to Brendan, these construction differences defined the earlier and later ones. I have some Sylvania labelled, Dumont, Westinghouse, Raytheon, Marconi... All are one of the two constructions, but I think most of mine sound a little different, and not just the vintage difference. Nice you got such a good pair. I seem to use my Dumont labelled ones most these days, always ending up with OB3s in when I try the others for a time. There have been cases when early 40's Hytron OC3 give me an openness I need if the tube set is too dense but otherwise amazing, but rarely do I shift from OB3s.
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« Last Edit: 04/23/16 at 19:42:00 by will »  

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Lon
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Re: Tube rolling the CSP2
Reply #69 - 04/23/16 at 20:17:03
 
Interesting, I didn't know that about the Arcturus being made by Sylvania. I have a few other Sylvania 0B3 and they don't sound the same to me. These just have been the anchor for me for some time, once I started using the KT66 these were the ticket.
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will
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Re: Tube rolling the CSP2
Reply #70 - 04/23/16 at 23:42:05
 
Can't say for sure not having seen an Arcturus OB3, but this is what Brendan told me. I guess it is the same coke bottle shape as the other OB3?
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Lon
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Re: Tube rolling the CSP2
Reply #71 - 04/24/16 at 03:28:40
 
Pretty much the same as far as I can tell.
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Re: Tube rolling the CSP2
Reply #72 - 05/10/16 at 21:21:41
 
I've done a bit of tube-rolling and I have settled on the RCA 7308 and the pair of unlabeled 7308s again. When I rolled rectifier tubes (a '40s Philco 5Y3G instead of a similarly old RCA 5Y3G) these give me a touch of warm vividness that was missing. . .and that I am liking a lot, especially for headphone use. (And that's about half the use of the preamp).
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