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Has anyone taken the challenge? (Read 1307 times)
ski bum
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Has anyone taken the challenge?
07/23/09 at 23:42:45
 
http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/index.htm

So, this Richard Clark amp challenge is apparrently legit.  Has anyone taken it, or has anyone subjected the Decware amps to the test?  I suppose this is for those with too much time on their hands, but it sure would be interesting...

Ok, I know this has been around a while, but it seems that you could game the system with this guy by choosing some difficult impedance speakers (ESL's or similar) and test a zen against an amp that oscillates when faced with such a load.  

I dunno, probably wouldn't work given he's never lost the challenge, I just want to take this guys money.
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« Last Edit: 07/24/09 at 03:53:08 by ski bum »  
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Has anyone taken the challenge?
Reply #1 - 07/24/09 at 07:30:37
 
When this challenge was first presented years ago, I accepted it and invited him over to present the A/B against his choice of my amplifiers... He wouldn't go for it.  In fact there was a rather lengthy thread on the older forums that resulted from the whole affair.

Steve
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« Last Edit: 07/24/09 at 07:31:34 by Steve Deckert »  
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Alan H
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Re: Has anyone taken the challenge?
Reply #2 - 07/24/09 at 12:17:59
 
Interesting, and almost unbelievable. It's certainly true that there is always a psychological overlay to listening to music, and what are often subtle nuances to sound quality are described in terms that over-dramatize them (guilty as charged).

I know when I set up my first DBT for ICs within my own system (solid silver versus VdH carbon-clad-copper) I was utterly confident that it would be easy for me to differentiate, and chose a completely inappropriate piece of music to use (10 seconds of highly processed Lenny Kravitz pop). To my huge surprise it was far more difficult than I imagined, and I only just managed to reach statistical significance (16/20 phew). If only I hadn't handicapped myself.

But graphically-equalised amps? No way. But might be tricky on an off-day, with a bit of a head cold!

Shame the old thread is gone - this is rather more interesting than the long-running cable debates, and does raise interesting points about speakers, amps, and DBT psychology.

Don't want to stretch this out if it has all been said before, but ... Steve - was it just a matter of his place or yours, or was there some feature of the proposal that spooked him? Was he happy with your choice of speakers?
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« Last Edit: 07/24/09 at 17:06:03 by Alan H »  

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ski bum
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Re: Has anyone taken the challenge?
Reply #3 - 07/26/09 at 22:43:53
 
This topic seems to be a dead horse, but in looking at a few other threads on the subject made me curious about a few things.

First, I'm curious at to why SETs inspire such ridiculous anger and sanctimony from some out in cyberland.  Well, actually I don't care if people choose to be uptight.  But it is shocking just how uptight some folks are! Huh

Second, I was wondering if the spatial character of my zens is strictly an artifact of phase shifts or something, as those sanctimonious types are absolutely convinced.  It certainly does not seem to me that my zens are adding anything artificial with regards to spatial cues, but they do seem to let those cues, if they're on the recording, to shine through in a much better way than traditional mainstream amps I've used.  I'm not sure I care much, when enjoying the music is the goal, and music through the zens is quite enjoyable to say the least.

Third, I wonder if that Hafler null testing could elaborate exactly what the CCE mod does.  I'm really curious about that, as many have reported distinct differences.  (I'm not sure I could identify improvements following the mod, but I was forced to listen to ss for two weeks while Steve had my amps.  The difference upon re-installation of the zens was a breath of fresh air, but it had been too long to really know how the CCE modded zens changed the sound.)

Fourth, I am curious as to how some of the audio forums continue to get traffic.  Some of the DIY sites are tremendously informative and almost collegial in tone compared to, for example, audioholics.com.  (what a bunch of jerks!)
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Has anyone taken the challenge?
Reply #4 - 07/27/09 at 16:11:40
 
Alan H,

If I remember right, I posted a public acceptance to the challenge on the  original forum thread that went unanswered.  We could likely find that thread in the old forums via archive.org and see I guess.

While I agree it is harder than people think to pick the right amp in blind testing, I would have used one of my own amps for the test.  My amps when set up properly in a good room, have a sound stage that explodes back about 30 feet.  This is the easiest cue to use when comparing two amps.  An amplifier with feedback is not going to get that deep.  

Steve
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Steve Deckert
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If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

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Re: Has anyone taken the challenge?
Reply #5 - 07/27/09 at 16:41:26
 
Quote:
First, I'm curious at to why SETs inspire such ridiculous anger and sanctimony from some out in cyberland.  Well, actually I don't care if people choose to be uptight.  But it is shocking just how uptight some folks are! Huh


It's not unlike science vs. religion.  As science continues to advance the distinction between it and religion becomes less and less.  At some point the two will become one and the same.

Quote:
Second, I was wondering if the spatial character of my zens is strictly an artifact of phase shifts or something, as those sanctimonious types are absolutely convinced.  It certainly does not seem to me that my zens are adding anything artificial with regards to spatial cues, but they do seem to let those cues, if they're on the recording, to shine through in a much better way than traditional mainstream amps I've used.  I'm not sure I care much, when enjoying the music is the goal, and music through the zens is quite enjoyable to say the least.


The spatial accuracy of your Zens is actually the LACK of artifacts and phase shifts.  I'm writing a paper now that will give insight into both sides of this argument, as many engineers will disagree.

Quote:
Third, I wonder if that Hafler null testing could elaborate exactly what the CCE mod does.  I'm really curious about that, as many have reported distinct differences.  (I'm not sure I could identify improvements following the mod, but I was forced to listen to ss for two weeks while Steve had my amps.  The difference upon re-installation of the zens was a breath of fresh air, but it had been too long to really know how the CCE modded zens changed the sound.)


The CCE mod deals with both the local AC feedback found in the tube and with the distortions caused by secondary electron emissions by reducing or eliminating it.  There will be a paper forthcoming on exactly what the CCE mod does and how it works.

Quote:
Roll Eyes
Fourth, I am curious as to how some of the audio forums continue to get traffic.  Some of the DIY sites are tremendously informative and almost collegial in tone compared to, for example, audioholics.com.  (what a bunch of jerks!)


Quality of membership.  With forums came a new opportunity to be anonymous, and therefor make statements without consequence.  This spawned a huge group of guys who enjoy quoting from manuals and books to make themselves look smarter than they really are.  It's all about looking smarter than the next guy.  To some degree this can be highly entertaining, but when an entire forums membership is dominated by these personalities it becomes in a word, tedious.

Glad to have you on our forums Alan, and especially pleased you are enjoying your amplifier!

Thanks,

Steve
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Homey
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Re: Has anyone taken the challenge?
Reply #6 - 07/28/09 at 18:13:56
 
Here's a fine quote.....
"The only factor that this test indicates that You can ignore is:
sound quality below clipping"

I think the Guy just didn't get enough cuddling from His mommy Grin

There was another Guy that had some very memmorable
momments on the forum,  & that was "The Futterman Amp Dude"......
He pretty much said anything that was not OTL Sucked!
& my did that start a war.

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« Last Edit: 07/28/09 at 18:15:43 by Homey »  

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