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The Christmas comes early mod! (Read 97946 times)
Alan H
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Re: The Christmas comes early mod!
Reply #50 - 07/17/09 at 18:10:42
 
Well, my impatience again, I reread the stuff, then went ahead and did it. Attached photo shows the hole (same for other tube) - I had to extend each hole slightly towards the 4 before the trace was finally gone, and confirmed that the two pin 3s were still connected, but each 3 and 6 were broken.

BTW the PCB is very easy to drill with a Dremel. I put very little pressure on because I was afraid I might lift the traces. You can see the tube holder through the hole (and yes I must clean up these solder joints  - and one seems to have cracked!?).

And it worked. And - first listen, it definitely sounds different! Will have to work through a few tracks before I can say how much - but at least I now have a before - after.
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« Last Edit: 07/21/09 at 09:40:03 by Alan_Hope »  

christmas_mod_hole.jpg
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Hasafraker
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Re: The Christmas comes early mod!
Reply #51 - 07/17/09 at 18:51:52
 
cool, I salute you and your impatience! Cheesy  hehe. This is a good excuse to grab a dremmel however I think I actually have one, it looks very similar to a dremmel, we got it for trimming our dogs nails... it was expensive which is code for "they will be terrified of it!" so it is just waiting for me to appropriate it to my tool box hehe as long as the chuck will accept standard bits and such, it's a done deal.
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pwells~

SE84DIY w/cce mod, ZSP1, VSPS DIY phono stage w/separate psu, Sansui SR-525 Turntable, Nagaoka MP-100 mm cart, Tekton Design 8.1's 97db@1w, all cables and interconnects DIY. Now we're cookin Wink
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Alan H
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Re: The Christmas comes early mod!
Reply #52 - 07/17/09 at 20:55:15
 
Go for it! Gave me a fright though - the sound after the mod was very detailed a bit "brittle" with a noticable restricted sounstage. Fortunately these effects settled after about 20 mins (what is it with ruddy capacitors?!?) ... and then ...

Bach, Brahms, Capercaille, Deacon Blue, K D Lang, Cake, King Crimson, Tchaikovsky, Deep Purple, Massive Attack, Paul Simon, Calexico, Elvis Costello, Zero 7, ... etc etc

Wow! "Gentlemen, this is no humbug!"
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« Last Edit: 07/23/09 at 11:08:35 by Alan_Hope »  
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Homey
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Re: The Christmas comes early mod!
Reply #53 - 07/20/09 at 10:25:00
 
I unboxed my old SE34I-1 last week after having Steve do the
Mod,  & there is  a very noticable improvement in clarity,  with
more transparency,  also soundstage depth seems to extend back
farther than before.   sounding really good with an amperex
6dj8 in the preamp section,  russian 6n1p drivers,  & a quad of Ruby
EL34BSTR 's in parallel.

Going to change over to 2 tubes in triode & give Her a listen.

Thanks Steve!
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drumsgreg
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Re: The Christmas comes early mod!
Reply #54 - 07/20/09 at 22:40:44
 
I don`t think I can afford to send mine back, but would love to do the mod myself for the Tori II, what pins do the caps need to go on and what size caps for the Tori II, thanks in advance for the help. Greg
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Walter
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Re: The Christmas comes early mod!
Reply #55 - 07/21/09 at 07:20:24
 
I made the mod to my Torii Mk2 over the weekend --  didn't have the original packaging box, so thought it would take longer to pack it up and send it versus making the mod. Also I didn't want to have the amp damaged in shipment because of my packing.

As per info posted by Zygi and Veryoldcat, I used Xicon .1uF 600V caps soldered  between Pins 1 and 8 for the EL34. Used the 600V caps since some of the cap voltages in the MkII looked higher than 400V -- also because the Xicon caps are smaller they were easier to fit into the amp. I got my caps from Triode Electronics, see :

http://store.triodestore.com/xicpol.html

See posted pic for one side of the amp-- the 'orange' caps are the ones I added, the one in the top part of the pic shows the connections better since the connector to pin 8 is obscured in the lower cap.

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torri2_caps2.jpg

SE84CS, Torii-I C, Torii II, Carina, Mardis TA10.1, MLB
CSP2, ZBOX, Dec343, Dec685, Njoe Tjoeb 4000
BIX, Duals 1019, 1219, 701
Graham Slee AMP2 SE & AMP 3, Bel Canto Phono1, Bel Canto DAC2
RL1.5, MG944, Solos, Horns, Hornshoppe Bass Cube
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drumsgreg
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Re: The Christmas comes early mod!
Reply #56 - 07/21/09 at 20:14:22
 
Walter, thanks for the info and the link for the parts, all parts are on there way , should have this done very soon. Greg
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jaco03
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Re: The Christmas comes early mod!
Reply #57 - 07/24/09 at 08:20:12
 
hi all
since i have both the se84 and el34i, i modded both amps, starting with the integrated first. --
observed only slight changes for the better with the integrated.
but the mod has lifted the little amp to another level altogether. -- it performs just as those who have done it say.
anyone with the little se84 simply have to get it done.
cheers
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drumsgreg
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Re: The Christmas comes early mod!
Reply #58 - 07/28/09 at 15:13:38
 
All I can say is the audio world is in big trouble, I did the mod this morning on the TORI MKII, what a difference some caps make, best amp on the market.  It drives my Eminent Tech LFTIIIB`s Beautifully.
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ko
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Re: The Christmas comes early mod!
Reply #59 - 10/01/09 at 20:39:21
 
hello ,i did the modification yesterday ,i didnot have any polyester capsitators in the home ,so i used mkp 100nf 400volt
and i hear defenitly a aprovement ,its a great xmass present ,thanx!
i have one queistion what is the advantance of a polyester condensator??
above mkp or mkt or pio?
      greetings ko
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veryoldcat
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Re: The Christmas comes early mod!
Reply #60 - 10/18/09 at 19:22:09
 
Hi ko,

If I read correctly you used metallized polyprop caps instead of polyester caps? I also used mp caps (xicons), because that's what I had.

Theoretically the mp caps you used are at a higher level of quality than the polyesters.

I believe an inexpensive polyester cap was suggested because it would be more than adequate (boutique caps are not required).

Karl
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« Last Edit: 10/18/09 at 19:22:24 by veryoldcat »  

SE84CS (vcapped), CSP, zbox, Dec685, ZP 1.0, Sota tt/Well-Tempered Arm/V15XMR, Parker 98's, Parker Audio *Power Chords*, cat 6 wires, OSX; a garage sale of other stuff...
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lightmaster
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Posts: 72
Re: The Christmas comes early mod!
Reply #61 - 10/23/09 at 23:52:05
 
I realize I am late at this, I have been busy and did not check the forum for a while and when I get back I find this, what I see has simply become the "CCE Mod".

I am so impressed with your work guys, you have taken a centennial technology and found something new in it, I am indeed impressed. From the descriptions it sounds very much like another unresolved mystery of the tube world, the odd "bloom" that tube amps experience after they have been on sometime. It really looks like we are still far away from totally understanding tubes Smiley and I certainly cannot see the end of this technology anywhere or anytime soon.

the D amps seemed to challenge the tube world, but clearly the force is still strong in tubeland Smiley

kudos to the Decware team!
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“Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.” Albert E.
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Steve Deckert
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Re: The Christmas comes early mod!
Reply #62 - 10/25/09 at 20:41:19
 
There is presently a discussion going on at the DIY audio forums about the CCE (or Hazen) mod.  I've written a part II to the paper talking more about how it works to perpetuate more discussion about it.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/153779-anyone-try-hazen-mod-g3-supre...

Part II of the paper is here:
http://www.decware.com/newsite/paper146.html

Thanks,

Steve
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« Last Edit: 10/25/09 at 20:42:06 by Steve Deckert »  
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rmt
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Re: The Christmas comes early mod!
Reply #63 - 11/05/09 at 23:43:23
 
All I have to do is open up my Select and safely solder a 0.1 microfarad polyester 400 v or more capacitor between pins 3 and 6 of both outputs.  Is that it?
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Select, CSP2 upgrade, Dec 685, DSRii, Nibbelin NFX w/DFR-8s, SE34.I, Zbox
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veryoldcat
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Re: The Christmas comes early mod!
Reply #64 - 11/06/09 at 04:14:53
 
That's all there is to it, rmt...

Karl
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SE84CS (vcapped), CSP, zbox, Dec685, ZP 1.0, Sota tt/Well-Tempered Arm/V15XMR, Parker 98's, Parker Audio *Power Chords*, cat 6 wires, OSX; a garage sale of other stuff...
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rmt
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Posts: 237
Re: The Christmas comes early mod!
Reply #65 - 12/05/09 at 22:31:19
 
Thanks for the info Karl.  Another question please.  Pin 6 is empty on both sockets now, that's easy.  Each pin 3 has a single wire coming off it.  One is red, the other is white and they tie together at a large gold colored(resistor?)  Those wires should remain undisturbed right?  And no problems using a mylar capacitor, correct?

Ok, never mind, I could not wait.  Soldered the caps in, put it all back together and started it up.  I had a fire extinguisher in hand and safety glasses on.  So far very good. I hooked up an old dvd and my bookshelf speakers for a test.  Spent a few minutes with Johnny A spinning - the amp sounds lusher, fuller.  Changing the bias setting seems to have more of a difference now too.  My little Boston HD7s are only five feet away from me and they have completely disappeared.   I call that a success.  I am quite pleased with the low quality gear I am testing it with.   With the Zbox, Dec 685, and my nibblelin NFx I expect it will even get better.
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« Last Edit: 12/06/09 at 03:25:37 by rmt »  

Select, CSP2 upgrade, Dec 685, DSRii, Nibbelin NFX w/DFR-8s, SE34.I, Zbox
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lightmaster
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Re: The Christmas comes early mod!
Reply #66 - 12/13/09 at 21:34:31
 
I guess it´s in my nature to always ask questions? so I hope you will bear with me.

why is the value of the cap 0.1uf? and have you tried other values and with what results?
ohh and while we are at it, why is the quality of the cap not important. I mean is that ever true?
I guess at this stage only steve and the guru Hazen himself may have an answer?

or not??? Smiley
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« Last Edit: 12/13/09 at 22:04:45 by lightmaster »  

“Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.” Albert E.
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michkhol
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Re: The Christmas comes early mod!
Reply #67 - 02/08/10 at 16:17:57
 
After several months of regular listening I still cannot hear any difference that is worth mentioning.
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Steve Deckert
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Re: The Christmas comes early mod!
Reply #68 - 02/10/10 at 00:13:42
 
Hi Michkhol,

I'm just wondering if you have it on a switch.  Even with a switch it can be hard to catch because the effect takes several seconds to build up before it is noticed.  You almost have to be listening with it on, and then turn it off to hear an immediate change.

Steve
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Steve Deckert
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Re: The Christmas comes early mod!
Reply #69 - 02/10/10 at 00:20:01
 
Quote:
why is the value of the cap 0.1uf? and have you tried other values and with what results?
ohh and while we are at it, why is the quality of the cap not important. I mean is that ever true?
I guess at this stage only steve and the guru Hazen himself may have an answer?


The 0.1uf value was used to place the effect inside the audio band where it would have an effect on the upper bass on out to the treble region.  Changing the value changes the time constant which will effect where in the frequency band it acts and also how images present themselves in the sound stage.  Using a 0.01 for example would push the effect up so high in the frequency band that if anything were noticed it would only be in the upper treble.

Steve
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lightmaster
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Re: The Christmas comes early mod!
Reply #70 - 03/13/10 at 10:49:56
 
thxs for the reply steve!
that makes perfect sense. I just was not sure what the real function of the cap in that position was and if this logic still applied. Clearly it does.

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Steve Deckert
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Re: The Christmas comes early mod!
Reply #71 - 10/22/10 at 17:47:45
 
The 1K 2W resistor between the plate (pin 3) and the suppressor grid (pin 1) must be removed before installing the 0.1uf 400v poly cap between pin 1 and the cathode (pin 8).

-Steve
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Raduschka
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Re: The Christmas comes early mod!
Reply #72 - 01/16/11 at 00:35:33
 
Hi, I don't see this mentioned anywhere: my zenkit 1 pcb came with traces and  holes for the 0,1 uf caps to be soldered between pins 3 and 6 on both output tubes. Am I lucky or what????
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Mark
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Re: The Christmas comes early mod!
Reply #73 - 06/17/12 at 14:29:38
 
Bump///  Is this mod a regular feature of the current Zen Triode amps that ship with the SV83 output tubes?... It would seem like the prudent thing to do... Gotta admit, I'm pretty much out-of-the-loop here... Not all that technically proficient on tube technology... (m.)
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If a rabbit defined intelligence the way man does, then the most intelligent animal would be a rabbit, followed by the animal most willing to obey the commands of a rabbit. -Robert Brault, writer (b. 1938)
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Chas
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Re: The Christmas comes early mod!
Reply #74 - 09/23/12 at 20:17:55
 
Sounds like my coming out of suspended animation after 10 years is already paying off as I never heard of this cap mod!  I'm sure I have some .1uf, 500V or 600V caps lying about -- probably russian teflons I bought years ago and I suspect they shouldn't hurt the sound vs poly.  

Just checked the pin-out on the EL34 and looks like the place for the cap is between pins 1 and 8 to cap-connect the cathode and suppressor grid.

I read both white papers from 2009 -- interesting stuff.  Can't say I understand what's going on yet.  I'll plug in the mod today on my first gen modded Torii and see what it does.  Easily reversible if not liked, but somehow I expect good things.

Been so long since any mods done on my Torii the dust is getting thick, lol!  :-)
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Modded Zen Torii Kit 0feedback Ferrari T.
-Current input fav: ITT Lorenz 6922 gold
Transport: Sony 685V modded using large Russian teflon caps on the DAC chip
Speakers: Massive Unity Horns
Subwoofer: WO32 Decware
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Chas
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Re: The Christmas comes early mod!
Reply #75 - 09/28/12 at 21:06:38
 
Well, I did the Hazen mod on my old Gen 1 Blue Torii today using 0.1uf 400V metallized poly caps between pins 1 and 8.  Let me say that I fully believe the benefits others are experiencing with their amps, but this old Torii design was a very unique one where the suppressor grid had always just been floating, not connected to anything in any way.  

Suffice it to say the mod did not work in my Blue Torii.  But it may work great in later Toriis which are a very different design.  Mine immediately sounded like feedback had been added, volume reduced, highs harsh, dynamics compressed, loud passages pushing amp into nasty distortion never heard previously, soundstage so narrow everyone sounds like they are on top of each other, immediacy gone, timbral accuracy gone, amp running super hot.  Just shut it down after two hours before something gets cooked.  At first, I wondered if the caps needed to burn in, but there's no way with all that distortion on loud passages.

Oh well, the amp did sound awesome before the mod.  Those caps are coming out for good.

Funny how some things work and others don't.  The early Torii is a singular design, rather unstable.  I suspect this mod may have set up some kind of ultra high freq distortion or instability.  This is highly unlikely to happen in the other amps which are more stable designs.  


Once again, I really do expect this is a great mod as described in most all other Zen amps -- but not my old blue Torii.  It's wonderful without it and miserable with it.

Fun to try.  Just didn't pan out.
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Modded Zen Torii Kit 0feedback Ferrari T.
-Current input fav: ITT Lorenz 6922 gold
Transport: Sony 685V modded using large Russian teflon caps on the DAC chip
Speakers: Massive Unity Horns
Subwoofer: WO32 Decware
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Chas
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Re: The Christmas comes early mod!
Reply #76 - 09/28/12 at 23:23:09
 
Quick follow up.  Issac Stern is back in my living room, violining ~yeah!  Took out the caps and the magic mojo is back on tap.  Pretty hard to improve on this amp.  Of course, without feedback, THD will get pretty high if pushed, but with 94db speakers, rarely doing much of that.

OK, so on the Blue Torii (Gen 1) the Hazen mod was trouble whereas it is apparently super for most other Zens, likely including MKII and III Toriis.  I think I partially cooked my new cryo'd EL34s trying the mod, but that's life.  This amp is a temperamental beast, but I love it.  It speaks audio truth like nothing else I've owned.

Oh well.  I still have a few tricks to try for a tiny gain here or there.  Tomorrow, switching out my current fav Sanyo DD54RC TV damper rectifiers to try the Cree SiC Schottky rectifiers.  Like I said, hard to make this amp better, but it's not hard to swap out SS rectifiers once you get to be a good solder slinger.   Tongue

But for tonight, I'll just enjoy the music!  ;D

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Modded Zen Torii Kit 0feedback Ferrari T.
-Current input fav: ITT Lorenz 6922 gold
Transport: Sony 685V modded using large Russian teflon caps on the DAC chip
Speakers: Massive Unity Horns
Subwoofer: WO32 Decware
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Chas
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Re: The Christmas comes early mod!
Reply #77 - 09/30/12 at 02:23:55
 
If Blue Torii MK1 and any other amp owners who have solid state rectifiers want a cheap thrill, buy 4 of these http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?WT.z_header=search_go&lang=en&... and have them installed in place of whatever you're using.  Just installed four today and they have nicely made a fine amp much finer.  Everything is improved.  Imaging, coherency, detail, listenability, high-end sweetness, realism, dynamics, timbral accuracy, naturalness, ability to focus easily on any instrument in an orchestra.  These rectifiers only come in a T0-220 package form, but a little attention to detail and anyone who can hold a soldering iron can do this.  These are Cree Silicon Carbide Schottky diodes.  The 600V model chosen as it has better specs on reverse current leakage vs the 1200v model.  Next, massive 10amp model chosen not because anywhere near 10 amps is needed, but because this is the one with the most internal capacitance at 480pF every time the rectifier goes to 0 volts -- like having a best snubber circuit built-in.

These rectifiers made more difference than any other mod in my Blue Torii amp and that includes using big $ buck vintage gold pin input tubes and total cost including shipping less than $25. for all four of these diode rectifiers.  I am now more sold than ever that best solid state rectification is darn fine in tube amps.  And these rectifiers should stay great or maybe even break-in and sound slightly better with time. Tube rectifiers, if great, may sound as great, but are always getting worse from day one.

I am convinced now that this Blue Torii is ready to be A-B'd against anything -- and likely win the contest.  It is SO much better than my Select which was a very fine amp.  This one has more detail and dynamic realism - nice! Tongue
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Modded Zen Torii Kit 0feedback Ferrari T.
-Current input fav: ITT Lorenz 6922 gold
Transport: Sony 685V modded using large Russian teflon caps on the DAC chip
Speakers: Massive Unity Horns
Subwoofer: WO32 Decware
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