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Granite base for 1.5's? (Read 5292 times)
Gmad
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Granite base for 1.5's?
05/04/09 at 21:41:36
 
Any thoughts on what a 12x12x1/2" granite tile (about 6 pounds) placed under each speaker might do for the bass response of the 1.5's? My floor is not the most solid (basement below) and alot of energy is being absorbed and radiated through the floor. Thanks.
--Greg
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musgofasa
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Re: Granite base for 1.5's?
Reply #1 - 05/05/09 at 19:46:08
 
From what I have seen and heard of the 1.5, it might tighten up the response a bit. I do believe it would be an improvement, but I think you may find yourself messing with the distance from the bottom of the speaker to the peice of granite. If you can get that space just right, it is amazing how the bass response changes. It's a little change for the most part, but when it's right.......
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Gmad
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Re: Granite base for 1.5's?
Reply #2 - 05/05/09 at 21:27:16
 
Thanks for sharing that thought. I will try 3/4" granite (about 12 pounds) at some point and we'll see what happens.........
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Gmad
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Re: Granite base for 1.5's?
Reply #3 - 05/17/09 at 22:13:09
 
OK change of plans... I decided a granite plinth would probably create as many new resonance problems as it would solve so I decided to make something with natural tone properties and good dampening. I cut two squares out of Red Oak, beveled the edges and stained them. I put a thin cork mat under and on top of each plinth. Finally I removed the spike tips from the Radials and placed them directly on the cork surface. Wow, what a difference! Much less floor vibration and I believe EVERYTHING has improved. I did not expect this much of a change and so far it seems all positive. At least in my room this really seems like the way to go. I have attempted to attach a picture. --Greg
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Oak_Plinth.JPG
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Lon
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Re: Granite base for 1.5's?
Reply #4 - 05/17/09 at 23:22:12
 
Quite nicely done!
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Gmad
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Re: Granite base for 1.5's?
Reply #5 - 05/18/09 at 22:28:47
 
Thanks Lon. Really enjoying it...... --Greg
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doukhobar
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Re: Granite base for 1.5's?
Reply #6 - 03/24/16 at 03:52:51
 
Hi there, sorry about reviving an old thread - but I supposed you could do this with other materials as well, for example a Maple wood platform from Mapleshade.

It seems there is discussion in the forum about slightly raising the ERR using spikes or Herbie's gliders, but I have not seen anyone else mounting it on a plinth.

From your guys perspective, is the consensus that the ERR sounds better decoupled from the floor, than resting directly on the floor? I think resting on the floor would dampen the bottom cabinet completely, and also potentially drain alot of the bass energy that is emanating from the cabinet opening at the bottom.

If so, my question would then be, what is the best way to decouple from the floor? I wonder if raising the ERR on spikes/herbies, and mounting THAT on the wood plinth would be ideal...
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Archie
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Re: Granite base for 1.5's?
Reply #7 - 03/24/16 at 16:23:33
 
I realize that I must be sounding like a broken record, but spikes DO NOT isolate.  Spikes couple vibration.  The spikes, in your example will transfer the vibrations into the heavy plinth which will then transfer them into the floor.  There is a lot of isolation discussion on the Forum.  If you want to see what I did under my HR-1s, send me a PM with your email address and I'll show you some inexpensive home-brew platforms that give near total vibration isolation -- if that's the way you want to go.  I've found that isolation focuses the bass, getting rid of boom.  I don't see any advantages of having the speakers sit on heavy plinths if isolation is the goal.

Edit:  I just saw the picture in this thread and I don't  know what the bottom of the ERRs is like as compare witht the HR-1s so I shouldn't comment on the heavy plinth.  That said, if one is used, then the isolation should go between that and the floor.
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« Last Edit: 03/24/16 at 16:28:02 by Archie »  
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Lon
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Re: Granite base for 1.5's?
Reply #8 - 03/24/16 at 18:28:38
 
I use these successfully under the HR-1s and have used them successfully under ERRs. Not fond of these under components, but four under a speaker. . .yum!

Level 1 Rollerblocks.
http://www.ingress-engineering.ca

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doukhobar
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Re: Granite base for 1.5's?
Reply #9 - 03/24/16 at 20:08:11
 
Thanks Archie! Thanks Lon!

Lon, this looks like it is a machined aluminum cage with ball bearings in the center. Neat idea!

I am about to become the proud owner of a set of ERR's, so I don't have them on hand yet to test, but am trying to find the best isolation and/or vibration removal system.

I guess my questions are:

1. Does the speaker need to be elevated off the floor, or does keeping i on a wood floor directly provide some sort of benefit. E.g. The trapezium needs to be on a wood surface due to its bottom fired port. I believe the answer to this question is yes, indeed, the ERR benefits from some sort of de-coupling from the floor.

2. Do I want to (a) Isolate, decouple, and elevate or just (b) Decouple and elevate? I realize this topic has probably been beaten to death, so if all these answers are already discussed fully, please just send me the links!

That said, I think the difference between (a) and (b), is that in (a) where you isolate, there needs to be a mass which absorbs vibrational energy between the decouplers. This will inherently elevate the speaker more than just a decoupler. My "decouple" I mean using some sort of spike/glider/triple point. Yes, I understand the spike is not an actual decoupler, as it provides a means for the vibrational energy to drain to the floor, but I guess I mean it is physically lifting and hence decoupling the speaker from direct surface area interactions with the floor.

(b) It seems like there are many, many options for "spikes" which would be option (b). The ones I have seen so far are:

1. Herbie's Decoupling Gliders
- One question I have about these, is do they allow one to move the speaker in the room easily without lifting it up? Is this the essence of a glider? After speaking to Pierre from Mapleshade, he stated that rubber bottom feet on the bottom of a decoupler is a terrible idea as it prevents vibration drainage to the floor, and in fact it blocks it.

Here are some Herbie's Giant Cone/Spike Decoupling Gliders with Titanium


From the website: Loudspeaker spikes are more effective when used in conjunction with Herbie's dBNeutralizer decoupling, especially with wood or suspended floors, whether carpeted or bare. Likewise, if your spikes couple firmly to your cabinet and are themselves solid and relatively free of coloration, they will complement Herbie's Decoupling Gliders very well by easing some of the workload and making the Gliders even more efficient. (Herbie's Cone/Spike Decoupling Gliders are used under your present spikes or cones.)
Features fiberglass-reinforced dBNeutralizer(tm) decoupling base and extra-thick brass, stainless steel or titanium disk. Fitted into Magic Sliders, they can be used on virtually any kind of floor, bare or carpeted, with easy-sliding mobility. Extra-deep conical indentation prevents spike from slipping out when lateral pressure is applied. Suitable for audio racks, stands and loudspeakers of virtually any weight. 1-3/8" diameter by 1/2" tall. With speaker load, height from bottom of Glider to bottom of conical indentation is about 5/16" (8mm).

Brass: superb hi-end results with most audio systems (our default recommendation).
Stainless steel: superb hi-end results with most audio systems.
Titanium: best-looking and best-sounding results possible.

This is a single spike decoupler:


http://herbiesaudiolab.net/spkrfeet.htm#cone

It seems, that one still needs to use a spike, which is then fitted into the decoupling glider. This will allow you to have the drainage into the brass or titanium decoupler, which hopefully drains that energy into the floor while also allowing you to slide your speaker around easily for room placement reasons.

2. Mapleshade TriplePoints

- The Triplepoints come in different flavors, but from chatting with Pierre, the owner at Mapleshade, it seems the original one, with the 3 small points up, and the one large cone downward would do best for vibrational dissipation. You can read about the advantages of their solid brass, and also the triple upwards points, which from my experience under components do a great job of improving sound. I wonder what they would do underneath one of these speakers?

From the Website: Our very best sounding footers all incorporate a three-point top, our unique cure for the major weakness of conventional cone-point design: the flat top. Mapleshade’s three-point contact eliminates the micro-rattles between a flat top footer and the imperfectly flat bottom of the supported equipment -- and the point contact transfers vibration much more cleanly and completely. Adding the three points on top yields surprisingly more detail everywhere—from the deep thunder of the tympani to the silvery treble of triangles.

Triplepoints are our best sounding footers for anything with a wood bottom or a metal bottom with protruding screw heads or other irregularities. (For flat metal or plastic bottoms, our Micropoint footers are even better sounding.) We offer a variety of Triplepoint options: Low Triplepoints where vertical clearance is limited, Radiused Triplepoints to avoid scratching expensive furniture and floors, and versions specifically for penetrating through rugs and carpet. Hemispherical Triplepoints eliminate scratches on the underside of demo and collectable gear, but offer slightly diminished performance, so use Micropoint Heavyfeet or Original Triplepoints whenever possible.

http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Micropoint-Heavyfeet-and-Triplepoints/products/1...

One problem I have with them, is that moving the speaker is a hassle. That is why they are great under components, which typically never move. They have to be balanced underneath by the user, so you need to hold it up a bit while you just have 2 underneath, before adding the third one. Moving the speaker with this underneath would be very hard. Maybe the Herbies glider can be added to this?

3. Ingress Roller blocks

http://www.ingress-engineering.ca/products-and-services.php

These are new to me, but look cool!



(a) Adding an isolation feature - I think the idea here is to have a block of material between the speaker and the ground. One example of a material is maple, or also another solid wood like birch or oak can be used. This would serve as the first vibration drainage point for whatever spikes were above. Then, one would have spikes underneath the wood drain.

This would be similar to the Mapleshade Bedrock Ultras, which I currently use with my monitor speakers. I really like them.
I see that Mapleshade actually has a Plinth they sell with brass footers embedded in the bottom. Here is what it looks like:




The idea behind these is to have the speaker completely off the ground, with two vibration drain systems (i.e. brass triplepoints) sandwiching a maple plinth. This also has the effect of allowing the speaker to "float" in the air, which I've heard some say is the ideal speaker placement. For example, in a concert hall, you sometimes find speakers hanging from strands above the audience seating.

Any thoughts?
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« Last Edit: 03/24/16 at 20:10:31 by doukhobar »  
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Archie
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Re: Granite base for 1.5's?
Reply #10 - 03/25/16 at 01:31:03
 
I think there is a lot of confusion on this subject since terms are used in different ways that mean different things to different people.  I don't like the phrase "drain away" when talking about vibration since, to me, it doesn't convey what is happening.  If vibration is "drained" through spikes into the floor it just mean that the floor starts vibrating -- especially with wood framed floors.  In my experience this can cause unwanted bass distortional effects.  The floor and other structure can act as a sound-board and may cause distortion (boom).  It also tends to vibrate the amplifier support causing further distortional issues on the front end.  Every room is different so there isn't a hard rule as to what works best but for my system true isolation from the floor gives me the cleanest sound.  I really don't want vibration from my speakers "drained away," I want it put toward moving air and making music.

Since I don't know what the bottom of the ERR is like and what effect changing the floor gap has I can't say anything about that.  The HR-1s have a plinth built in so putting an isolation platform under them only raises the overall speaker height but doesn't change the gap for the passive bass driver.
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Lon
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Re: Granite base for 1.5's?
Reply #11 - 03/25/16 at 11:57:55
 
Hmmm. . . some posts seem to be missing.

Just want to say that the same methods can be used for HR-1 and ERRx speaker bottoms I believe; similar plinth design.
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doukhobar
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Re: Granite base for 1.5's?
Reply #12 - 04/19/16 at 02:12:51
 
Hi Archie,

I started writing you a long message in my Decware inbox, and when I came back, it was gone. I hope to write back to your very informative PM's. Thank you again.

Lon - I am about to pull the trigger on two sets of Ingress Rollerblocks for my ERR. Any final thoughts? I was wondering if you had compared these to the Herbie's Gliders directly, or any speaker spikes.

After chatting with Archie, I have a fuller understanding of coupling via spikes VS isolation via rollerblocks, for example.
It seems that isolation is the preferred method since it prevents the vibrations of the speakers from interacting with your front end. On a side note, Mapleshade's triplepoints and megmount brass 'spikes' also purport to limit vibration creeping into the component it is under.

Lon, I was wondering, specifically, are you able to readily move your speakers with the Ingress rollerblocks underneath? I am getting mine with the threaded studs.

Thanks for any info you may have!
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« Last Edit: 04/19/16 at 02:13:52 by doukhobar »  
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Lon
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Re: Granite base for 1.5's?
Reply #13 - 04/19/16 at 12:30:05
 
Hi Matt, sent you a PM. I did use the Herbie's Audio Lab Gliders and prefer the sound of the Ingress Rollerblocks. I did not use the threaded Rollerblocks ever, I just use the regular units and sit one under each corner of the speaker. I have used Herbie's spikes, as well as the ones that Bob sends with the unit (threaded rob with pointed ends) and Herbie's Iso-Cups. I like the Iso-Cups but prefer the Ingress Rollerblocks, slightly different sound, more isolation. I have to move my speakers out into the room for use every day, it's very easy that way, I don't imagine the threaded Rollerblocks would be much harder.
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« Last Edit: 04/19/16 at 12:43:55 by Lon »  

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Archie
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Re: Granite base for 1.5's?
Reply #14 - 04/19/16 at 17:03:28
 
Just a thought about the roller blocks.  To me they look like they would decouple (isolate) well in the horizontal plane but would effectively couple in the vertical plane.  This isn't a comment on how well they work but more a clarification.  I think all footers are ultimately a tuning device since no perfect isolation is really possible.

One sort of relevant observation is that I noticed that old-time microphones were sometimes suspended by springs.  It looks to me that they were isolating the microphone in a similar way to how I isolate my components with spring platforms.
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