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D.I.Y. acoustic project series in detail. (Read 13648 times)
RFZ_Quest
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D.I.Y. acoustic project series in detail.
01/30/09 at 21:48:17
 
Welcome! This thread is dedicated toward the interest of d.i.y. acoustic principles whether it be small or large scale.


The primary focus here will concern the construction methods for diffuser modules and other techniques used to provide absorption control for an overall frequency balance.    

The goal for these projects is to provide the best possible performance gains with the lowest cost involved in doing so.

The intention here is to provide actual feedback from the d.i.y. Builder as these projects are created in the constructor's own shop.  Providing positive participation, an abundance of detailed construction photo’s along with pertinent data concerning its construction is requested and highly encouraged concerning the projects posted here.

Note: Please restrict any posted documentation to the actual projects presented in this series. This is not about what someone else is doing on another site or a place to simply add links to sources with no relevance to these specific projects. We do not need the additional confusion or distraction that this creates by doing so. If it proves beneficial to provide certain links to design tool’s or data in order to assist the Builder, then this will be posted as necessary.

For ease of viewing and layout, please reduce your photos to an appropriate size.  The maximum would be 800 pixels wide, preferably around 600 pixels would be ideal.

I am providing the design details to create these models which will be organized in series projects. These particular models are the focus of interest to be limited on this thread. I ask that strict adherence is maintained in doing so.

I am looking forward to seeing finished results by all participants who wish to build and test these projects.  The final stage will be feedback once these units have the opportunity to show their worth as they are applied toward enhancement of the audio experience.


Are You Experienced? You Will Be!








How Does Your Wall Sound To You?



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RFZ_Quest
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Re: D.I.Y. acoustic project series in detail.
Reply #1 - 01/30/09 at 21:55:05
 
This thread is under construction as the first project is being prepared for introduction to the d.i.y. Builder. Please have patience. Posting of this data will begin very soon.

Several designs will be considered with optional guidelines in the creative process. We will begin with the design criteria for applied diffusion techniques. The idea is to create wide-band units for maximum effectiveness throughout the most critical areas of the frequency range.


Stay tuned and good luck! There just may be something gained from this. It is up to you for which to discover what that gain might be.



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Azul Shiva
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Re: D.I.Y. acoustic project series in detail.
Reply #2 - 02/03/09 at 20:55:02
 
Dear Paul,

You asked me to move my post from "General Room treatments forum" to here:
A member gave this link for dîffusion calculation. Can I trust it?
http://www.digitalaudiorock.com/cgi-bin/qrd.cgi

What frequencies should the horizontal and verticel (60cm bit at the floor and ceiling) go for?

(Good approach for a new thread. I won't be able to build anything until I will have enough money. That will be by the end of april. PS: violet on grey is unreadable; why don't you stick to white)


Kindest Regards,
Wolfgang
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« Last Edit: 02/03/09 at 20:58:11 by Azul Shiva »  

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RFZ_Quest
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Re: D.I.Y. acoustic project series in detail.
Reply #3 - 02/04/09 at 02:33:24
 
What that I am trying to get across here is this: Let's not put the cart before the horse. I will hold off discussing any related questions for which I am about to clarify within the upcoming projects, until after I get the chance to post that information.

I will be laying down pertinent information concerning the approach to these projects, why they are chosen, and what to expect from them in general. Your questions will be answered in generalized form, from which the information presented here should easily clarify.

If there is something not clear from what I've posted, please ask at that time. I will then reiterate with a refined answer, which should break it down into proper perspective without confusion.

My intentions are to show the d.i.y. approach for building 'at-home' projects on a large scale, deemed unpractical for someone to order 'pre-built' due to size, labor cost, weight, and the associated shipping constraints.

I will be offering examples in the design approach for which the d.i.y.'r can choose options to meet their specific needs within practical measures. This insures that the frequency range in question will be effectively covered by the options chosen.

The major influence for which to govern the use of these design parameters is that of cost, space limitations, and level of difficulty for the build. The builder must choose their own project guidelines based upon any limitations that would apply to their specific room application.

There are many benefits to this approach that will be explained as this project takes form.

These projects are for the guy who wants maximum coverage with high performance tactics, possible only from a d.i.y. perspective when budget constraints remain the issue for consideration.

Steve already provided an example of this with design figures presented in a previous post. I will be furthering the design options with alternate projects presented here.

I understand what it is that you've requested here. I am going to approach that request with an actual design that should fit your needs as well as adhere to the best interest of others.

This will occur on a time allowed basis at my convenience. Thank you for understanding that.

The online calculator does seem to check out with the various design parameters that I input. I am not absolutely convinced that the low frequency calculations are 100% accurate, but since all other parameters appear to check out with the math that dictates these factors, I find no reason to find fault with the calculated response curve.

Just remember that these curves are approximate in value with a certain degree of fluctuation on either end. It is close enough to use as a design tool.

This is a tool. For it to work effectively, one must understand the variables that are input in order to get the correct design parameters.

You cannot simply use random numbers at will for the design input and expect the results to be worthwhile. The data must adhere to Maxima ratios to be effective.

As long as you input prime numbers and follow the odd order quarter scale principle for size reduction when full scale is prohibited, then you can trust the outcome for which to model your design.

I will show you by example, how even minute differences in design parameters will greatly influence the frequency range and its degree of effectiveness. This will allow you to understand why and how these variables are factored in to obtain the results intended. It will also prove to you just how easy it is to obtain less than desirable results when not done correctly.

We will be looking at how combination primes can be used in conjunction to meet a specific target range.  We will also look at how larger prime number sequences in singular form will provide a higher degree of performance coverage, without the problems associated with quadratic residue repetitive sequencing.

Again, this will all be explained in this thread. I will be posting this pertinent information very soon, so have patience.

All future fonts will be presented in basic white unless necessary to present otherwise.

Thank you for your patience and understanding of all this as it comes together in form.

Paul.
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Dirty_Dawg
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Re: D.I.Y. acoustic project series in detail.
Reply #4 - 02/05/09 at 12:29:31
 
Sorry, can't comply!

(kidding)

I would suggest that you reserve the next few posting positions for theory, calculation support and construction notes, just to ensure that the "user friendly" section for this paramount thread remains organized, without creating ONE GIANT Post to sift through, then allow the mayhem of pic posting to begin.
You could even begin to create an outline format for subsequent posts to follow.

I will ask to have this post deleted after "you comply."

Grin
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« Last Edit: 02/05/09 at 12:44:45 by Dirty_Dawg »  

Anxiously watching as the whirling wind scoops up and hurls into oblivion the chalky white dust that was once the rank bones of my final oppressor, I relax finally, as I have survived again.
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RFZ_Quest
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Re: D.I.Y. acoustic project series in detail.
Reply #5 - 02/07/09 at 00:42:05
 
Quote:
I would suggest that you reserve the next few posting positions for theory, calculation support and construction notes, just to ensure that the "user friendly" section for this paramount thread remains organized, without creating ONE GIANT Post to sift through, then allow the mayhem of pic posting to begin.
You could even begin to create an outline format for subsequent posts to follow.


Looks like we are on the same sheet of music!

It is almost as if you read my mind. I will try to keep this plan as organized as possible. It is not as easy to do on a common thread such as this. It would really require a controlled layout within a multi-page website setup for this, in order to be maintained optimally.

I have no control as to when, how, or where people respond to this project page, nor can I edit anything posted. We can only hope that posts are made as they apply to the specific project going on.

The only thing that I can possibly do to make this more organized is to provide additional threads for each project with a direct link for which people can post questions, photo's, and feedback there. That could lead to possibly even more confusion in the process. If this makes sense to do so, then let me know and I will see about setting it up that way.

Yes, as all things must have an opening description to clarify preliminary outlines, I understand the need to cover the important information concerning design theory, construction relevance, and methods for which to provide design support.

It is always good for the constructor to have the ability to check calculations for design verification.  It is all part of the learning curve for which the builder may advance within this field. This also provides a sense of assurance within the builder's mind that what is being planned is best for the given application. There will be less questions that way (I hope), with a better chance of satisfaction once the project is completed.  

I expect for subsequent posts to follow once the project sections are posted. It will be clear where things stop and end pertaining to any specific step in the project posted. That is where we want and expect someone to reply if needed as long as it pertains to that particular step or detail.

One thing to keep in mind here: I do not intend to provide any build photographs in sectionalized segments. This is what I ask for you as the homebuilder of these projects, to provide during the construction phase as this unfolds.

Any donations here would be greatly appreciated, and of tremendous wealth. Images are worth far more than words by any degree. It is important to include supporting information with those photo's in order to supplement them.

I will however, provide the data and layout dimensions in a structured format.

In other words, I will remove the guesswork and do my best to make everything clear as to how the parts are cut and how they are positioned correctly.

Basic drawings will be provided to show the layout and order of the parts for assembly. I will NOT provide full blueprints. If someone wants to go that extra step with the means to provide highly detailed blueprints, then great, this would be a major contribution to these projects.

I expect the builder to have enough general knowledge and sufficient ability to successfully build from that data. I also expect that certain things may need to be clarified. That is understandable and fully supported.

If you need to use metric dimensions, the best that I can do here is to provide a link to an online conversion table in order to get this data. The information here will relate to standard units of feet and inches. I may possibly provide the additional conversion equivalents. If not, it is easy enough for one to do this themselves.

This allows for a group effort, giving each person building these projects a chance to show their work and overall accomplishment along the way. This also provides the opportunity for someone to broaden the design with a creative contribution, for which may or may not evolve as a worthy improvement.

Suggestions and ideas are always welcome as long as they conform to a reasonable degree of correctness within the guidelines.

Once I show calculations to obtain particular performance parameters, then it should be clear to the builder that any deviation to this would obviously lead to quite different results than what is intended here.

The link to the online calculator as posted above in this thread, will easily verify the changes within the performance range as data is modified. This will show you what to expect from the end result should you be curious.

Next step is to begin with basic information, leading into design theory and practical use. I will show examples pertaining to this.

Thanks.

Paul.

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mike_gagne
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Re: D.I.Y. acoustic project series in detail.
Reply #6 - 02/15/09 at 19:01:29
 
from the BBC archives:


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mike_gagne
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Re: D.I.Y. acoustic project series in detail.
Reply #7 - 02/15/09 at 19:04:36
 
The BBC image is built to the size of the tiles used in their grid ceiling and made from wood. The specs they supplied show a significant improvement in the studio. This was done in the 90s
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RFZ_Quest
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Re: D.I.Y. acoustic project series in detail.
Reply #8 - 02/17/09 at 00:00:11
 
I guess that my opening notice failed to make clear, the outline regarding image and link posting relevance within this thread. I ask for all to understand and comply with this request if you want me to continue with this project.

Please try to honor this simple request, as it is very important to keep things in proper perspective here in order to avoid confusion.

I ask that photo's posted are of the actual project(s) in work here. (I.E., images of your work in progress as it pertains to the projects presented here by me.)This is to show the actual work taking form from these projects.

I am trying to keep this thread structured for a reason. I may occasionally post an image or an external link to make a point or to reinforce that point. There is a reason for that exception.

Again, my time is very limited for which to contribute here. Please understand that this will not unfold quickly. Information will be posted once I have it ready.

Thank You.

Paul.
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RFZ_Quest
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Re: D.I.Y. acoustic project series in detail.
Reply #9 - 02/17/09 at 00:25:10
 
A basic review concerning the pros & cons of diffusion techniques.


The following data is extract from scientific findings and corresponding writings by some of the top experts in the field of acoustical principles and design. To fully understand and appreciate the full depth of their studies, it is highly recommended and strongly suggested to investigate each of these studies directly from their individual writings.

The following points are presented in order to get you onto the right track concerning these principles as a motivational starting point. It is up to you as to whether or not supporting data will influence your decision to use any or all of these techniques for your purpose. I am only trying to offer a path for educational reference, which will help guide you through the decision stage.

Once you know the good and bad aspects of the various design categories, you should be better informed to make the correct decision in order to find the solution desired.

The following sources are available and should be read.

This technical bulletin attempts to answer the most
frequently asked questions concerning diffusers and
their application in the design of critical listening
rooms:

- What is a diffuser?
- How do diffusers scatter sound?
- Where should diffusers be positioned?
- How do diffusers affect imaging?
- How far away should a listener be positioned?
http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/education/pdfs/Diffusion_Critical_Listening_R...

The Music in the Numbers
http://www.reglos.de/musinum/

Manfred Robert Schroeder
Universitätsprofessor Physik
University of Goettingen, Germany
http://www.dpi.physik.uni-goettingen.de/~mrs/

Music and Mathematics
Manfred R. Schroeder (Göttingen)
http://www.dpi.physik.uni-goettingen.de/~mrs/Vortraege/Music+Math.pdf

Surface characterization for room acoustic modeling and designhttp://www.rpginc.com/news/library/RADS_surfaces_characterization.pdf

“periodic arrays, that is arrays formed by
the repetition of a single shape, cause an
uneven coverage, resulting from lobing in
the diffraction directions.”

http://www.rpginc.com/diffusebulletin/pdfs/dbv1i5.pdf

compare the uniformity of scattering of an
array of semicylinders

http://www.rpginc.com/diffusebulletin/pdfs/dbv1i6.pdf

Optimized Shape Aperiodic
Modulation
http://www.rpginc.com/diffusebulletin/pdfs/dbv1i9.pdf

describe the two basic ingredients
in Optimized Canopy Design:

http://www.rpginc.com/diffusebulletin/pdfs/dbv1i7.pdf

ODEON
and the scattering coefficient
http://www.odeon.dk/pdf/ODEON%20and%20scattering.pdf

An example of how an asymmetric, optimized Mod-fuser with zero-depth, half-width end wells can be modulated according to the prescription of an optimal binary sequence.
http://www.rpginc.com/products/modffusor/index.htm

The following books are highly recommended for the proper understanding and approach to acoustical science. These are among the best references for which to model your designs and tactics. Full comprehension to the acoustic modeling process is readily available within these books. The model designs that I will be covering are directly influenced by the information within these chapters.

We can thank the leaders in this field for making this all possible and available for our own needs. Among these leaders is Peter D'Antonio, with a background in diffraction physics, music performance, and recording engineering. Dr. Peter D’Antonio is the President/CEO and founder of RPG Diffusor Systems.

Another source of great contribution stems from the work of Trevor Cox, Professor of acoustics. http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/profiles/cox/index.php

Of course, we can really go back to the work of  Prof./Dr. Manfred R. Schroeder as a major contributor for which modern day designs are now a reality. It could even be said that M.R. Schroeder’s mathematical influence is the very foundation for which modern day acoustic principles are predicated. He certainly played an important part within the evolution of acoustical design. http://www.dpi.physik.uni-goettingen.de/~mrs/

I certainly would not limit the credit to just these few individuals. In a tangible sense however, I believe that these individuals have provided the greatest impact toward serving our needs, with products that work very well to meet our objective. These recommended book links should clearly provide proof of that statement.

Number Theory in Science and Communication: With Applications in Cryptography, Physics, Digital Information, Computing, and Self-Similarity (Springer Series in Information Sciences)
M.R. Schroeder
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/3540265961/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link

Master Handbook of Acoustics
F. Alton Everest
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0071360972/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link

See also:
Acoustic Diffusers and Absorbers: Theory, Design and Application [ILLUSTRATED] (Hardcover)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0415296498/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link


Next, I will briefly discuss the more applicable points that pertain to our objective. The purpose is to highlight known factors relating to acoustical modeling for which design directly influences the outcome in practical use.

If you read the information provided in the links above, this serves solely as a recap to those papers. If you did not read the above information, then this will attempt to reiterate the main points, which explain the properties of diffusion along with its limitations.

I would expect the readers to take upon themselves, for which to further this investigation. If I can spark your interest in doing so, then I have set a stone in your path for which to seek advanced knowledge. Either way, you win!







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Azul Shiva
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Re: D.I.Y. acoustic project series in detail.
Reply #10 - 06/27/09 at 10:41:50
 
"Again, my time is very limited for which to contribute here. Please understand that this will not unfold quickly. Information will be posted once I have it ready." ... a year?
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« Last Edit: 08/11/09 at 11:50:02 by Azul Shiva »  

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RFZ_Quest
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Re: D.I.Y. acoustic project series in detail.
Reply #11 - 09/05/09 at 23:07:18
 
It may be never the way things are going in my life this year.   I apologize to those that were waiting on this to happen.  I just wish this was all I had to worry about in life!  Don't look for my contribution to this link anytime soon....not until things improve, and I can afford the luxury of time to be concerned of such things as trivial as this is.

Maybe next year will afford the opportunity for me or someone else to continue with this link.  I gave you the most critical information to set the groundwork. Do what I did and figuire it out!  I just may let you know if I see any mistakes...LOL   Anyway...good luck as I wish you success in your application.
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Re: D.I.Y. acoustic project series in detail.
Reply #12 - 11/08/09 at 08:30:21
 
Sometime back ( old forum) Paul did start a similar thread, which got me excited. He even promised me that he would help me on the project. I remember that I did send him some PM's, but nothing happened. The whole subject just died......looks that it is happening again  ::)

shreekant Smiley
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MikeZ@turningpointaudio
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Re: D.I.Y. acoustic project series in detail.
Reply #13 - 11/12/09 at 14:12:36
 
Since his last online activity was the same day as his previous post, it looks like this will be unfinished. What about we start a community effort in a new posting?
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« Last Edit: 11/12/09 at 14:12:55 by MikeZ@turningpointaudio »  
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mike_gagne
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Re: D.I.Y. acoustic project series in detail.
Reply #14 - 11/13/09 at 07:40:23
 
The call is upon us as members here to do what we must to bring this effort forward for everyone. Lets do it but keep in mind Pauls information which is voluminous and prodigious as well as accurate.     Forward!!    mike
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