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The NEW Radials are HERE! (Read 30401 times)
Lon
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Re: The NEW Radials are HERE!
Reply #15 - 02/10/09 at 23:51:13
 
Yes, I'll have a pair.  I actually ordered a pair of the new Retail models as well.  I'll be really having fun!
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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RFZ_Quest
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Re: The NEW Radials are HERE!
Reply #16 - 02/11/09 at 02:02:42
 
Quote:
The original cylinder isn't used because as high as it was on cool factor the pyramid enclosure simply sounds better.  It's higher mass, internal shape and larger base with the plinth design create a more solid bass response and truer tone in the midrange.

Steve


I can tell you first hand that this statement correctly, and honestly, sums up the actual worth revealed from these designs. I was at the shop during the R&D stage of these speakers, so I had first hand experience evaluating them through the final phase as shown in present form.  It is for this very reason that we have found the progressively changing slopes within the pyramid concept to be superior in overall response. The tubes were very light and thin walled by comparison. Most people understand by now that as Steve clearly pointed out, MASS IS CRITICAL within the speakers foundation. Of equal importance is that of dissimilar internal surfaces for optimal modal control.

In finding the exact internal volume, height, and correct balance of added structural mass, it became quite clear as to the changes within the sound, as these parameters were zoned in to the ideal range.

Quote:
...passively loaded plinth floating below the cabinet...

priceless.


Yes, ABSOLUTELY!!!

This has proven to be the single most substantial modification for improving the low-end response of not only these speakers, but others as well, converted with this concept. This transition alone transcends from the ordinary in a two-fold perspective. Not only does the lower frequency spectrum extend deeper, most importantly; it extends accurately within a very smooth response. The level of improvement is quite noticeable throughout the upper midrange as well.

Many people are surprised to find that proper bass control has a great deal to do with how the mid range itself sounds in general. Strong clean bass noted by sharp definition is the result here, with a midrange presence that portrays an equally stunning degree of improvement.

I remember the day that the driver mounting plate concept evolved! Bob and I spent a good deal of time discussing the best possible ways to make that transition. Indeed it does work very well. Things like this appear to be simple, but in fact can be the most troublesome in design to meet the objective. The end result had to conform to several factors in which to be acceptable. Not only did it need to present a solid foundation with clean lines; it also had to support the driver installation with minimal diffraction points. The platform had to provide integration of the mounting support for the high frequency driver arch, in a pleasing aesthetic manner. This plate had to allow the removable cover a proper platform for which to sit securely, with a visual conformity to the pyramid boundary itself. Finally, it had to be removable with minimal effort for future servicing, while at the same time providing a reusable, positive seal.  The end result proves to meet those objectives very well.

All in all, the formation of this design represents the culmination of ideal improvement made possible by the current design concept, which by far, surpasses the previous designs by quite a margin. The largest gain, that which will be noted with great prominence, is within the significant spread of the frequency spectrum. These are for the first time in the evolution of radial design, proven deserving of a position among the stable of full-range, high quality speaker designs. As I dislike comparing quality factored by price as a determination of worth, this remains as the basis for which most people seem to regard the overall performance of the product. So, if I had to relate quality in this manner, then this would be my best way to sum it up for those that must equate quality to price.

Right off, I would say that if this basis were the only determining factor for which price should be set, then there has been a major mistake here concerning the price! Since I very much doubt that any speaker under $2000.00 on the market today could even come close to the sound quality of this advanced radial design, let alone surpass its standard, then maybe we should reevaluate the price for which to balance things out subjectively. With that being the case, these models should be priced accordingly at double the price offered. I think that it is fair to say that these models offer the best overall value when all things are considered by a long shot. These speakers undoubtedly offer the best degree of overall compatibility factors that one could warrant.
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RFZ_Quest
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Re: The NEW Radials are HERE!
Reply #17 - 02/11/09 at 02:05:40
 
Quote:
Yes, they look wonderful and I can just imagine how well they sound.

Reading the text. . . my RL2s are now "obsolete"!  I'm going to try to keep this from them for as long as possible!

Next year will also see retail versions of radials!  Going to be exciting!


I can tell you from my past experience starting with the original RL-1 introduction that this current design is a major leap forward in build quality and performance. The thing that always stood out in my mind concerning the overall sound quality of the cylinder design concept was that of the mid-range as its greatest positive trait.  At the same time, the weakest aspect of the original design was the desire for much improved bass response. We all knew that lower frequency extension was not a strong point for those speakers but it was quite respectable in it’s own right.

What was learned from all of this? Maintain that which worked well and redesign that which is longing for modification. That is what you have here in a much better design package of robust proportion! Think about it. You are getting a new speaker design, far superior to its predecessor at a price point that has practically unchanged! How’s that for unparalleled value? Most importantly, it is made in the USA.


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ZENCDUSER
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Re: The NEW Radials are HERE!
Reply #18 - 02/11/09 at 02:06:12
 
I ordered a pair in late November 2008, and have had extensive conversations with both Ziggy and Eddie Vaughn about matching the speakers with my system and room.  Based on my listening style and preferences, I am excited, and believe  I will have a lasting synergy!  Hopefully soon!
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RFZ_Quest
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Re: The NEW Radials are HERE!
Reply #19 - 02/11/09 at 02:16:42
 
Quote:
The suspense! The anticipation!  

Won't be long and the waiting will be over and several of us will have ERRs in the living room!

Life is good!

:)

Can't wait to hear impressions.



Well I believe that I can offer the earliest of impressions of these speakers auditioned within an acoustically acceptable room, powered by Decware components and non-Decware components. I can also base my perception of these in respect to past experience with the very first radial models ever produced. Things have come a long way here across the board, as not only the look and build reveals, but also equal by proportion to the broadening of sound improvement as well.

What always struck me about the early radial designs was the effortless sound dispersion that maintained an impervious nature for which to counter bad room acoustics.

Unfortunately, the very foundation which made these speakers sound so special was also that which became its worst detriment. That being the limitations of the cylinder itself. The sound did not relate to the coloration known to typical box speakers, this of which the cylindrical shape was directly responsible. The drawback was limitation in the low frequency response.

The continued modification of the passive-loaded base design of the RL-2’s and beyond offered a tremendous degree of improvement over the original design. This was however taken to the maximum potential for which the cylinder could offer. This concept deserved better. This meant that a total revamp in design was necessary to progress beyond these boundaries.

What really evolved here was the hybrid formation of the best factors concerning the cylinder radial design and that of the much costlier RL-3 design. The best of both concepts merged as one to create a better sounding speaker then either of the predecessors for which these design factors was derived. That which evolved into the current model.

I always preferred the sound and overall attributes that the larger radial driver revealed in the cylinder design. The thing that became immediate to me when I first heard future models built with the smaller diameter radial drivers, was the absence of what made the original drivers sound so special. At the same time, the balance went the other direction with improvement in the lower end, this directly related to the pyramid design. Keep in mind that the older RL-3’s utilized an open passive radiator approach, which depended upon the distance of the floor surface, as well as the composition of the floor for which determined the response.  While the improvement seemed significant over the cylinder approach concerning bass issues, I never felt the magic that seemed so apparent in the original radial model concept. There always seems to be a compromise when alterations are made. In this case, I would have opted to maintain the mid-range qualities of the larger driver in the cylinder design over the bass improvement obtained by the newer RL-3 models. The RL-3 models had a completely different nature to them which to me, just seemed to follow all the other standard cabinet designs as far as sound quality was concerned. This all leads to the premise that “The sum of the parts are greater than that of the whole” and it is clearly proven within the following analysis.

So, what was learned from all of this? That neither design had fully obtained a maximum level of quality possible in their limited form. Taken to maximum potential, the sum of the whole now balances out the sum of the parts.

Prior to the new radial designs, (EER’s) as they are now tagged, as revealed at last years Decfest, I was asked to sit down for a listening session with my eyes closed so that I would have no idea as to what was being played in the room. Up to this point, I evaluated the prototypes as they were undergoing different design approaches. One of these approaches involved the use of a full range modified Fostex driver in conjunction with the larger Radial driver as used in the original designs. I liked the sound of that combination very much with a sense that it would have found wide acceptance among most listeners.

We generally listened to the system changes with the exact same source, music selection, and volume to keep things in perspective. Any changes are therefore revealed in a controlled manner that is more easily confirmed.

Well, being that the EER’s were the focus of the previous week with the most concentration applied toward their final form, I suspected that some combination of the radial speaker would be used in this blind test. That was the whole idea. My memory was to serve as the basis for analysis without any visual confirmation to lesson the impact of the final conclusion.

Upon the initial start of the evaluation, I immediately knew that something special had once again abounded my senses for which had been silenced for a very long time. As memory would serve, the first thing that came to mind was the effortless sense of ambience within the room, resembling that of the larger radial drivers used in the early cylindrical designs. There was uniqueness to this sound that separates itself from any other speaker by comparison. At the same time, as the element of surprise revealed, for the first time I was not only re-experiencing the sound quality that always made the larger radial driver sound so special, but now in perfect unity with a seamless progression deep into the lower registers with a sense of speed that was sorely missed in previous designs.

When I first revealed the presence of what I had listened to, it did not surprise me that the Radials were part of the system. What did surprise me was the driver arrangement. An almost exact replica of the original layout concerning the driver array was now integrated into a much superior pyramid foundation. For the first time, the best of old met the best of new and the answer we had desired finally revealed itself in form for which soon came to be the ERR model.

The new approach to using a tunable variable port base assembly for the passive loading proved to be the ultimate advancement. It proved so worthy that we wasted no time modifying older designs with this concept, all with superior levels of gain. This quickly became the standard in design with benefits that were previously unobtainable.

To go back and listen to any cabinet without this modification will noticeably sound bloated and constricted by comparison.  The modification allows for far more precise detail to be heard with a sense of deeper cognition to information, which now conveys important relevance to its substance. There is a strong sense of rhythmic pace, snap, and emotional connection that seemed out of sync prior to the modification.

To sum up: what is available here is the answer to what so many requested the ideal speaker to sound like. The one thing that most radial owners wanted was for improvement in bass response without losing any of the special qualities in the mid-range which made these speakers so alluring from the start. This latest radial design represents full circle evolution to what the concept should have been in the initial concept. Time has definitely made a marked improvement here as most previous owners of past designs will quickly agree. I can definitely proclaim that the magic is back and it just got better!
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RFZ_Quest
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Re: The NEW Radials are HERE!
Reply #20 - 02/11/09 at 02:57:42
 
Quote:
Yes, I'll have a pair.  I actually ordered a pair of the new Retail models as well.  I'll be really having fun!


I can tell you in advance Lon that your assumption is correct on both accounts!

Both speakers are unique in sound character. Of course the retail version dispenses a price tag several times over the EER model. I can tell you first hand that the creation of the Retail versions is far more complicated and involved, therefore it is understandable why they cost so much more. These are like the modified works of art that Chip Foose creates from tired old cars, turning them into the most intriguing designs ever displayed.

My set is finished in metallic automotive paint, which has a chameleon effect to it as light varies upon its finish. These speakers look like they have been fabricated from sheetmetal. The secret lies within the tedious preparation stage and the choice of quality materials used in the process.

These make for some serious eye candy as most that have seen them agree.

What these speakers do for the home theatre experience is astonishing beyond belief! They don't fair too bad for two-channel audio either.

PS: I predict that you will be overwhelmed with joy in the near future! It may be too much to handle taking in what both of these sets have to offer at the same time. I hope that both models exceed your expectations, bringing new levels of quality to your listening experience. I have no doubt at all concerning the outcome.

Take care.

Paul.
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Lon
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Re: The NEW Radials are HERE!
Reply #21 - 02/11/09 at 11:25:50
 
Thanks Paul. I'm really looking forward to the experiences. I'm retired for the moment and will have the time to absorb these speakers before I move on to probably finding a new home with a lovely loving partner and then another job. . . . There is much listening pleasure ahead of me!

I know how much work and brain-storming Bob and Steve have done on these and trust the results to be phenomenal. These two gentlemen of sound really know their stuff and are really dedicated to the realization of spectacular playback.
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« Last Edit: 02/11/09 at 11:27:10 by Lon »  

Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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Lon
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Philip K. D*ck

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Re: The NEW Radials are HERE!
Reply #22 - 02/13/09 at 16:56:07
 
I tell you. . . there are days when I sit here and listen to my RL2s and think, "Can it get better than this?"  I'm sure it can, but they are HIGHLY satisfying speakers.
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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RFZ_Quest
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Re: The NEW Radials are HERE!
Reply #23 - 03/02/09 at 07:50:29
 
Lon,

Sounds like everything is back in order for you with a new take on life. Glad to hear that all is going well! I do know that you are in for some very interesting listening sessions, based upon what I've experienced with the new speaker models.

Low frequency reproduction is going to be something very much in favor here as will soon be experienced.

Anyway, to reply regarding the thought "can it get any better than this?", I can only think to myself just how clearly this will be answered once these speakers have been experienced on your behalf.

All that remains is your clarification on this when the time comes to evaluate the new designs. I for one am looking forward to your analysis and overall impressions.

You are not really letting anything go with the older models. In essence, you are retaining those special qualities with significant enhancement. The package is complete, leaving nothing to be desired in present form.

As a teaser, here are some images of the new retail RADIAL I.T. models for which you too will soon own. This is my set, finished in metallic automotive paint.

Notice how the color depth changes from light to dark depending on the rate of light. I shot these photos within the span of one hour, during the latter part of the afternoon as the sun was setting. Nothing was changed except for the degree of natural sunlight as the sunset took place.

This final design is the culmination of effort between Bob and myself.  As impressive as the external lines are, what you can't see on the inside, and what this means to the performance of these models, is truly the most impressive part of this design. There is a vast degree of complexity instilled within these designs, clearly represented by the musical embodiment for which they produce.

For now, here is a brief view of the upcoming model soon to be on display within local audio shops.











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Lon
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Re: The NEW Radials are HERE!
Reply #24 - 03/02/09 at 10:59:17
 
Hi Paul,

Thanks.  Bob had shared three of these images with me, and in fact I chose the exact same paint as my own as a result.  Looks beautiful!

I'm sure I am going to enjoy these speakers profoundly.  I'm also going to be experiencing a new amplifier, the SE34I.2 soon, which should enhance my listening as well.  

I'm being just as patient as I can be! Cheesy
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Decware:ERR,HR-1,ZP3,CSP2+,Torii Mk III,PS Audio PWT+DS,PowerBases,PPP,AC-12 pcs, Denon DBP-A100, Denon DCD-A100,Rega RP3 +TTPSU,white belt+Exact2, VooDoo Cable:Evo,Ultra Linear, Iso-PodMapleshade:Double Heiix Plus.Samsonv2+v3 +4" platforms,Herbie's Iso-Cup
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richard
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Re: The NEW Radials are HERE!
Reply #25 - 03/04/09 at 22:12:18
 
have not posted on site for a long time.  Take a look at occassionaly to see whats up and well Bob just want to say the new retail speaker looks very cool.  I of course am curious as a still happy rl-3 owner what you have learned in this new design that looks anyway to be using the same front drivers the brand names of which I won't mention here.  True?  Pictures don't show us the make up of the top firing driver.  Is it now traditionaly mounted as in not inverted?  Is there then a cone above dispearsing the top mount driver 360? or is it just left to radiate upwards on it's own?  

Real question for me is what have you learned over the years to help us owners of rl3's.  Assuming still first oder crossover with cap and resistor for tweeter only now hiding inside.  Would you be willing to give what with your years of experience in development what you have settled on for the cap brand and value of cap?  Anyone else want to weigh in on this subject?

I know I am slightly off topic but the new speaker makes me want to ask the question.

Good luck with both new speakers.
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« Last Edit: 03/04/09 at 22:21:48 by richard »  

decware rl3 radials, audiomat prelude reference int. amp. and meridian cd
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ZYGI
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Re: The NEW Radials are HERE!
Reply #26 - 03/05/09 at 02:20:13
 
Hi Richard,

Thanks for the complement Smiley  

 The "I.T's" front driver is by the same manufacturer but a different version that the RL-3's used. The crossover is a 2nd order 12 dB on both the Radial and the tweeter, this clarified things greatly. The Radial driver was made more efficient, and it is in fact an inverted cone like the 3 was. The top plates are the grill, thanks to Steve Deckert. The bases are another one of Steve ideas,  his original drawing for the ERR's had this plinth base, we took it a step farther and implemented it on both the ERR's,  the "I.T" 's The MG944's and  the Kadenz speaker

What makes the "I.T"  so different is whats on the inside, which has to be done after everything else is finished, which takes a good bit of time do to the fact that, well the speakers are finished, and we have to be careful not to get anything on the finish.  

The cap we now use, and I like a lot, is Clarity Cap from Madisound.  Paul,(RFZ quest) had a early pair of the retail version on the Decware site for sale, we installed the new bases and the 12dB crossover and found even they had a significant improvement.

You know, it's funny how good things come from not so good events....if it hadn't been for the fire in Phoenix which is why we lost our inventory of the RL-1.5 tubes, the ERR's would probably never have  been built. The ERR's are the quintessential Radial speaker which is why we did away with the RL-3's, they are that good.  

BobZ
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cielspacing
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Re: The NEW Radials are HERE!
Reply #27 - 03/13/09 at 16:25:58
 
Ok.

Nice to be part of this forum version.

And the ERR's pyramid base looks like a good concept, with its absence of parallel planes hence lowering the chance of producing sound nodes inside.

However, talking about aesthetic design, would it be possible to ask for the cylindrical grill to be placed on top of the pyramidal base? -It is my take- that it would help the ERRs blend more easily with most rooms (or to better blend with some at least).

Thanks
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Re: The NEW Radials are HERE!
Reply #28 - 03/15/09 at 01:56:03
 
Evening folks,

Well I spent most of the day at Bob's today and got my first listen to both the retail "IT" version and the ERR's. All I can say is Lon is going to be one very happy camper when these things come to him. The new ERR is a DEFINITE improvement over the 1.5's.

These were so good, in fact, that my wife has given me the go ahead to finish a project at home and order a pair for our house! (that's big folks)

When I heard the RL1.5's and the RL3's I would never have thought they were lacking in any area, but after hearing the new ERR's, I would now say that they do everything the earlier versions did plus some. I believe that I would say they sound "stronger" than the earlier versions. More solid and heavier while maintaining or possibly improving on speed and clarity. Even at pretty high volumes they were very very good all the way through. Midrange is where magic is made and they deliver that without ever being too shouty or in your face at all. I like the fact that they produce ample low end, crystal high end and don't leave any feeling of missing sounds. Every time I go to Bob's house I hear something that sets a benchmark for "the best I have heard". Today I heard two of those and both were radial designs. The retail version is different in it's own way and I won't get too far into that because we didn't listen to them a lot. I did like them very much and would love to own a pair of all the speakers Bob builds, but the pocket book draws a line somewhere lol.

I want to thank Bob for having us today. He is always gracious and accomodating and doesn't mind talking shop all day even in the absence of food. I will have to repay him in kind when he comes down my way. So far we are planning on putting him up in a REALLY nice hotel and feeding him well. He deserves much more for putting up with me  :)

I can't wait to hear more reviews on these once they start hitting homes. I loved what I heard enough to put up some cash, that's for sure.

Take care,
Robert
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Re: The NEW Radials are HERE!
Reply #29 - 03/15/09 at 02:52:09
 
Which amp or amps did you audition the ERRs with?
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My system: Decware Taboo, CSP2, ZP3, Pro-Ject RM 10 / Grado Reference Sonata, Adcom 700, ERR Radials, Lots of Mapleshade, Kimber and Herbie's stuff.
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