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Why no interest? (Read 12652 times)
DPC
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Why no interest?
08/22/08 at 11:58:46
 
I have four of Bob's diffusers and if there was enough money I'd have twenty.  Am I the only one out here that uses these things?

dennis
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ZYGI
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Re: Why no interest?
Reply #1 - 08/22/08 at 18:14:46
 
Dennis,

  I use them, a lot of them in fact!  But when you think about it, diffusers don't make any noise, they just set there, so I guess there is really nothing exciting to talk about. At least not as exciting as someones new speakers or amps.

 Now the real exciting part, is how shocked everyone is, when all at once they pull all there room treatment out of the room and see how much the diffusers helped they're gear sound better. Everything just goes to Sh*t, if you know what I mean.

 We sell a right smart amount of diffusers, as many commercially as for individuals, it seems like we never have an order page sans diffusers.

But you have to admit, unless you live alone, or have your own room in the basement, they are not particularly wife friendly, yet, I have somewhere here, some pictures one customer took for me with at least 20 pairs of diffusers in the family room of a beautiful home, I thought he was single at first, but he's married, and how he has them set up, just looks great. I didn't think he was ever going to stop ordering them. He didn't cover them, just painted them black, and it works.

BobZ
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DPC
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Re: Why no interest?
Reply #2 - 08/22/08 at 23:53:14
 
Not that it is needed here but I have my four covered with some very thin cloth.  It was meant to be some kind of window covering I think.  No one even asks anymore,"what are those?".

We will be seeing you in a few weeks and might get another order in there.

dennis
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ZYGI
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Re: Why no interest?
Reply #3 - 08/23/08 at 01:29:19
 
Dennis,

 I will be seeing you in  a few weeks, I called Steve Monday and reminded him how close Defect actually was, I love putting him in panic mode.....I've been in panic mode for several weeks now, so I thought he should join in the fun too!!!

BobZ
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Azul Baronis
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Re: Why no interest?
Reply #4 - 01/22/09 at 09:13:03
 
Does anyone have the plans for this diffusor?

http://www.rpginc.com/products/diffractal/index.htm

I would be gvery greatfull for any help.
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DPC
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Re: Why no interest?
Reply #5 - 01/24/09 at 13:38:25
 
Bump,Bumpity,Bummp!

It seems as though there are very few of us out here that are interested in taking the time to construct something this difficult.

Paul, this could be your contribution to our community.

dennis

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RFZ_Quest
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Re: Why no interest?
Reply #6 - 01/24/09 at 19:19:26
 
Dennis,

I have no problem stepping up to the plate when asked to do so. It seems as though most lose interest when the difficult part comes into play.  If someone would actually apply the knowledge presented to them into a real world application, then it would justify the time and effort it requires instructing these principles into application.

Bob Z. now has all of my custom diffuser & absorber modules, as I could not take them with me on my return trip to AZ.

As the outer shell housing was disassembled and discarded for the large prime-23 quad sectioned unit, I did organize and wrap the individual parts for the internal structure so that he could build a new case for which to rebuild this unit in his listening room.

Since I will need to layout the plan for this model with the necessary instructions for the assembly stage so that Bob can reinsert the parts in proper order, I might as well go one step further and publish these plans here on the forum. This will leave no doubt what-so-ever to the d.i.y. crowd in going about this project.

My design can be reduced in size (quarter-scale-odd-only) or sectionalized. Although overall performance will be reduced within the range of effectiveness by reducing the dimensions down to a 'quarter-scale' approach, the modified size would be much more manageable within most listening rooms, yet still quite functional. The frequency range would just be restricted more into the mid-range area, which is most critical anyway.

The great thing about these large units aside from spectacular performance is that they can be easily disassembled and stored when not in use. Very heavy when together, but manageable when broken down into parts. For this reason, I avoid permanent assembly techniques.

Upon enough interest generated here, I will present the plans and assembly instructions for not only the full-scale model, but also the reduced quarter scale version.

Given the time to do so, I should have no problem implementing the design details for which to build something far more sophisticated such as the 'diffuser-within-a-diffuser concept' which must be built on a large scale. This is the extreme approach for those that are willing to extend to that level. This is really when we begin to transform the listening area as a whole in a fully dedicated approach to sound quality.

If there is a lack of interest for which to recreate the designs as presented, I simply will cease with any future sharing of concepts. Time is simply too valuable to waste when nobody listens!

Dennis, even if it is just for you, or the occasional lurker who remains silent,but puts it to good use, that would at least make it worth while. Maybe you could inspire more to follow with these design builds.

BTW: I have a very nice prime-19 single sequence concept with anti-lobing measures built in, reduced to minimum quarter scale size for individual units. This is a stackable or hang-able unit of manageable size and weight with great effectiveness in the critical mid-range area.

If anyone is interested in this design or even a full-scale version of it, I can arrange to post the details upon request.

There are many variations to implement in the design process. It is just a matter of deciding which principles and techniques will work best under a certain situation.

Tell me what interests you most and I will acknowledge with a plan to d.i.y. these principles into workable units.

Just remember that this is free, therefore I have nothing to gain from this but satisfaction in knowing that someone else will have improved their listening Q to a much higher degree. I guess that is what this is really all about anyway, right?

Take care.

Paul.
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mike_gagne
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Re: Why no interest?
Reply #7 - 01/25/09 at 06:44:21
 
Paul I am struck by your magnanimous approach and am very interested in the diy of room diffusers. I have a limited budget currently but extreme skill in woodworking and cabinet making. With nearly 35 years in my trade and a large well equipped shop at my disposal I would be thrilled to have someone break down the math to bite size parts and would be willing to provide the feedback to extend the reach of your proposal to anyone wanting to learn. I have built a range of speakers from Lyn Olsen Ariels for a friend to a set of Parker Sig 95s for myself. I have not been able to buy my desired amp from Steve yet but am heading there as soon as finances allow. Count me as an interested party when the urge to share your experience happens.   mahalo, mike
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« Last Edit: 01/25/09 at 06:46:29 by mike_gagne »  
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Hotsauce
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Re: Why no interest?
Reply #8 - 01/25/09 at 10:54:25
 
http://www.pmerecords.com/Diffusor.cfm

Plans for an easy to build diffusor.  

John C.  

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mike_gagne
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Re: Why no interest?
Reply #9 - 01/25/09 at 18:20:39
 
Easy to build for sure but "easy" ends at building. Painting, hanging and looking at them is another matter. I would like something that works and  is aesthetic also. Additionally, I would like to do my ceiling. I have no issue with hard work but like my efforts to produce beauty and performance.  I am still looking..........     mahalo, mike
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Azul Baronis
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Re: Why no interest?
Reply #10 - 01/25/09 at 18:46:19
 
Dear Paul,

I definitely am one of the people who invest their entire spare time and money into the effort of making their stereo system sound better.  You are very right; time is money. I very much respect your effort to help other DIY'ers.
I am looking for a wide range diffuser to cover two walls 6m in length. I thought the RPG diffractal would be a good choice, although you might know something better. I don't care how the damn thing looks like. I turn the lights off anyway when listening to music. I am looking for the best possible sound diffuser, technology and a limited budget of 5000sfr can offer. The difficulty of building it is no matter to take into consideration. Thanks a lot!


Sincerely,
Wolfgang
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« Last Edit: 01/25/09 at 18:51:00 by Azul Baronis »  

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RFZ_Quest
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Re: Why no interest?
Reply #11 - 01/25/09 at 21:06:30
 
Hello Mike,

You make at least the third person now who's shown any real interest in creating a listening environment worthwhile for that intention.

(Wow, three people! Something's wrong with that picture) Got to be at least a couple more out there??? I guess the unheard lurkers have to be factored in as well.

Well anyway, just for those that care such as yourself, I will be glad to post some drawings, parts lists, instructions, details, etc... up concerning several different approaches in the art of diffusive elements and acoustic enhancement in general.

I.E....Actual detailed information on d.i.y. projects of known credibility to their worthiness. The best bang for your buck without spending a small fortune. Although the end result shall be unparalleled by any degree of cost when compared directly to similar products.

The majority of cost for these devices lies within the labor & shipping factors! D.I.Y. here allows for an entire room to be professionally modified with the best of techniques when acoustical treatment becomes paramount. If done correctly, a full treatment could be accomplished in a 'stealth'-like manner within the room while also maintaining a decor scheme, color coordinate approach.

I personally like the idea of integrating the units flush within the wall studs and the drywall surface itself. With simple detachable grills covered in sound transparent material of matching color, the treatment really becomes unaware of itself within the overall presentation of the room decor.

'Fully-functional' but non-obtrusive. I believe that should satisfy all parties concerned in an agreeable manner.

I do not tend to take the simplistic approach to things unless it serves the need without the addition of complexity for which to make it justifiably better. I do try to maintain a balance of elements that matter the most for the task at hand, without compromise to performance when considering the pettier of factors that are irrelevant to the end result of purpose.

I do try to factor in options for reasonable aesthetics as much as possible without creating any detrimental set backs to the units performance. Moderation here is really important. Sometimes, a bit more compromise in this area is important if the unit is to be displayed within a well decorated room. I believe that with good creative skill and a little imagination, many things are possible to bring all of these factors together into a workable solution.

As long as we use audio transparent materials to cover the critical areas that provide the function (the entire sequence grid), without hampering it's effectiveness, then all is well. (No pun intended...really)

I am going to provide a technique with the source links for which one can apply a special coating of felt like material in a spray-on manner.

This provides a wide range of colors to choose from that end up with a texture similar to that of fancy jewelry box lining. The cost is very affordable and most importantly, beautiful with a professional touch.

Another finish method without the complexity, is to pre-finish your parts in the 'whole' material stage BEFORE cutting the parts. This way, the post-assembly finishing requires only a minimal touch-up phase, which should be quick & easy to do with great results.

Whether it be a painted surface or that of exotic veneer finish, this concept of pre-fab preparation makes a lot of sense when it comes to near perfect finish qualities with very minimal work involved.

If you have ever tried to spray paint something that has nowhere for the applied air pressure to travel through without build-up, you know that this task is nearly impossible to do effectively. The end result would be far short from desirable trying to do it in this manner. You would be better off applying the paint by brush, but disappointed by the vast amount of time this would require to paint the individual well detail plus the mess it is likely to create.

The best options are either total covering with an acoustical material after assembly, or pre-finishing the material prior to parts cutting and assembly. Once the unit is together, it is already finished with just a few final touch-ups needed to cover certain edges exposed from the cutting of parts. When paint comes into play however, it is important to note where gluing boundaries intersect, as you want to insure the glue bonds correctly without being affected by the paint. (Chemical compatibility is always a major factor to consider)

Imagine how pretty the wells would be if an entire MDF sheet was pre-veneered as a whole prior to the parts cutting. The parts could be cut in a consecutive manner so that during the assembly stage, the wood grain will match in sections as it did whole. The divider panels should also be pre-painted in whole sheets of material (both sides) prior to cutting the individual parts. *This could present a problem when gluing if the glue and paint are non-compatible. Just one of those factors to keep in mind.

Let creativity have no boundary and use your imagination. There are many different ways to come up with an effective solution for which to create a low cost, highly functional, highly attractive product. A winner in all aspects of consideration.

So, I heard your calling for which I shall respond with something that I hope will suit your needs. Just remember that there are always alternative methods for which to bring into play. My techniques usually incorporate a complimentary blend of absorption built into the diffusion designs. That is not always the case, but generally it is a good practice not only from a cost savings perspective, but also a space saving, practical perspective without losing anything in the process regarding performance potential.

This is a time permitted process on my part. Please allow a reasonable amount of time to put this information together. I shall start with the plans for building my full-scale prime-23 unit as shown in the photo's posted at the other link.

In the mean time, you should consider the finishing aspect ahead of time, as something that I described above may be the solution that is best for your situation. Know what you want here in advance so that expensive changes are not made mid-stream in the assembly process.

With a unit consisting of narrow .5" wells such as this, the most practical method for finish would be a covering with acoustically transparent material. Large sheets of speaker grill cloth can be ordered from Parts Express at a reasonable cost with many colors to choose from. I would either paint or veneer the outer cabinet sections where visible.

A platform will be required not only as a sturdy foundation for the diffuser units to perch securely, but to also bring them to the appropriate height within the room boundaries. I built mine from 3/4 MDF in a partitioned set of sealed cavities, which could easily be transformed into individually tuned Helmholtz resonators for troublesome low frequency correction.

Again, there are always alternative approaches available for consideration. Many of these techniques can effectively be integrated within very smart hybrid designs. I will merely offer a few ideas of my own which I believe will provide dramatic improvement within an intelligent approach for the d.i.y. constructor.

More to come soon. Please have patience and don't hesitate to ask questions concerning this. I will try to cover all aspects with minimal confusion. If there is a problem, bring it into focus for correction.

This should be a walk in the park for all of you experienced woodworkers,  and not too bad for the first time novice.

I am in a minor state of chaos right now following my move back west. This means that I need to find all of my data and material before I can get any information put together and posted. I'm working on it. You should begin to see details as a work in progress very soon.

Hope this gets you on the right track to where you want to be.

Paul.
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RFZ_Quest
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Re: Why no interest?
Reply #12 - 01/25/09 at 22:11:35
 
Wolfgang,

I know that you are anxious to get something going here. I do like the straightforward no-nonsense approach you are seeking to meet your objective. Makes things much simpler without compromising anything important where it counts the most.

Yes, I do believe your choice of unit design is a very strong acoustical tool for wideband effectiveness. It would make for an ideal primary solution, however it would not be the only solution for overall corrective measures within the room. It will make for a considerable amount of improvement where diffusion comes into play.

I will have to examine the configuration details here, which can be utilized into one unit effectively, without too much difficulty in the construction phase. I have not actually built this type of unit, but am interested in doing so. I do know the principal behind it and am aware of the procedure for acquiring its parameters.

Give me some time to look at various methods to use here and I will see what is possible.

If you want plans or measurements for a full scale approach which is very much the case involved with designs such as this, then I assume that you are looking to build this framework directly into or against the wall(s) itself. If you can do this, it would work very well.

At the very least, I can offer some suggestions with options at hand so that you can decide what works best for your application.

As I stated previously, with a d.i.y. approach, the majority of cost has been factored out while the full room treatment possibility comes into play in a very affordable manner.  Materials are very minor in cost when considering the overall treatment put into place. You do the work and pocket the rest. That in itself makes this a realistic goal to obtain on a full scale without having to sacrifice anything but the time to build it.

A good quality table saw is warranted here along with great attention to detail and accuracy in the build process. You will need a supply of MDF ranging from 1/8th thickness to .75 inch thickness. The vast majority of material goes into the well dividers and framework. This means that many sheets of 1/8th inch mdf will be required just for the divider network itself.


Got to go for now. Will get back to you on this shortly.

Paul.

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mike_gagne
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Re: Why no interest?
Reply #13 - 01/26/09 at 04:39:05
 
Paul, I can tell you have done this before and am excited at the prospect of guidance in the effort. I have a full panel shop with spray capacity for most material. Vacuum veneering and laminating are integral to most of my work also. I like your concept of speaker cloth covering the working diffusers as i want my room to stealthily perform. As a side note, standard mdf is a poor performing material in Hawaii's climate but mdx (exterior grade mdf) is readily available in 19mm (3/4") dimension. I can access other material in 1/8" size. Overall, I await your largesse with patience and expectation of some fun.   mahalo!     mike
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DPC
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Re: Why no interest?
Reply #14 - 01/26/09 at 12:49:04
 
This is gonna be fun!
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