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NEW TORII Mk II - Sneak Preview (Read 15119 times)
DrN
Ex Member



Re: NEW TORII Mk II - Sneak Preview
Reply #30 - 08/23/05 at 23:43:05
 
Great looking amp for sure. I wouldn't change a thing.
Priced right too. Intro price is great too.

Lets see if I could sell my Monos........
Naw, I can't, my system is sounding kickass!

Looking forward to some listening reviews though since 7 are sold already.

Den
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troutsnook
Ex Member



Re: NEW TORII Mk II - Sneak Preview
Reply #31 - 08/23/05 at 23:52:58
 
Dave,

I just want to clarify that I was not yelling at you.  My point was alot of folks in this hobby don't understand what it takes to build something like this amp and assume it can be done for less.  Certainly in China, it could be, but I doubt the sound would be as good.  You did say that there are other amps like this in the price range.  Would you mind being specific.  The only other amps I know of - I certainly am not all knowing - are some hand mades my Ed Logan here in Orlando.  His amps with tube regulation sell for considerably more and sound fantastic.  Just curious. ???

Bob
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Steve Deckert
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*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 2441
Re: NEW TORII Mk II - Sneak Preview
Reply #32 - 08/24/05 at 01:34:30
 
[quote author=selmerdave  link=1124759053/15#28 date=1124832640]

I suppose a more bare-bones version of the same thing, same tube compliment and general design but without the cost-no-object approaches like the paralleled coupling caps.  Maybe a single power supply since there's so much iron involved and a more basic chassis.  Closer to the point of maximizing the point of diminishing returns.  Something that would satisfy the needs of those with less efficient speakers for considerably less than the price of the usual 25w PP amp out there.  But hey, it's not my company and maybe that would be a really stupid idea, no doubt Steve considered that along the way to arriving at this amp.  Again I'm just hoping he continues to offer products to those of us looking to maximize the dollar.

Dave
[/quote]

Dave,

I understand where you are coming from - and my positioning this amp as sort of our flagship might make it look as though we've abandoned our original ideals.  I can assure you that's not the case.  

I also understand that the market is saturated with 20 to 80 watt push pull amps, many that appear to be pretty good.  And for what they are many of them aren't too shabby but also many of them simply suck.

The last think we want to do is design ANOTHER inexpensive pushpull amp like the bare bones version you eluded to because honestly there are too many out there that would sound comparable.

Push pull amps typically sound like push pull amps.  That's what made SETs so popular.  With the exception of dynamics and weight I don't know of any push pull amps below 10 grand that sound better then a good SET amp.  

One of the problems with the difference in fidelity between the two is simply that too many audiophiles aren't set up to hear it.  They make two mistakes - one is they position their speakers too close to the wall to get any real depth in the soundstage and two-they use inefficient complex speakers that can't reveal the inner side of the music the way simpler speaker can.  Because of this, when they compare an SET with no feedback that is capable of unlimited soundstage to a push pull amp with feedback that only has 6 feet of depth no mater what.... they hear the depth of each as exactly the same.  And of course the inner detail the SET offers is lost on the busy speakers so again it sounds the same as the push pull.

After building our single ended amps for 10 years I have become spoiled by the superiority of the Single ended amps ability to communicate music to the listener.  My goal was to make this amplifier sound as good as the SET amps in all categories which frankly makes it non-comparable to all of the push pull amps presently offered anywhere near the price point.  Ironically the higher price points that go past the $4500.00 mark are usually higher power which automatically take them out of the competition because they can't sound as good.

The bottom line is doesn't matter what the topology is, push pull, single ended, utlralinear and so on, all that matters is does it have the amazing clarity and holographic highly focused imaging with zero listener fatigue like all Decware amps, and the answer is - yes.

Were now at 100.00 per watt of killer fidelity with this new amp, whereas before with the signature monoblocks were were at 1000.00 per watt.  Not to mention the money and time you'll save not having to find appropriate speakers.  

I have no plans for future Decware amps, the current line up is all anyone serious about listening would ever need.

Hope this helps - and yes it really does sound that much better then it's competition as time will tell.

Steve
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jj420
Ex Member



Re: NEW TORII Mk II - Sneak Preview
Reply #33 - 08/24/05 at 02:34:59
 
Quote:
I have no plans for future Decware amps, the current line up is all anyone serious about listening would ever need.



no more amps means either you're going on vacation, or focusing the mighty mind elsewhere...

care to drop a hint as to where you're going?
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matchstikman
Ex Member



Re: NEW TORII Mk II - Sneak Preview
Reply #34 - 08/24/05 at 02:57:25
 
[quote author=Steve Deckert  link=1124759053/30#32 date=1124843670]I have no plans for future Decware amps, the current line up is all anyone serious about listening would ever need. [/quote]

Let the speculating begin.
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selmerdave
Ex Member



Re: NEW TORII Mk II - Sneak Preview
Reply #35 - 08/24/05 at 04:50:06
 
Thanks for your response, Steve, I'd sure like to hear it.

Dave
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mullman
Ex Member



Re: NEW TORII Mk II - Sneak Preview
Reply #36 - 08/24/05 at 14:27:10
 
Enough is enough!

Like any business, Decware is attempting to broaden its appeal to people possibly not current customers.

Many people have legacy speakers they love of moderate to low efficiency and a 1.8w SV83 based amp just is not gonna do it.  Personally I love Steve's low power designs and I would rather work around the first watt.  But I really do not think Decware is abandoning their old mantra or anything.

I applaud Decware's move to look at other areas and I look forward to hearing this new PP amp one day!

Kudos Steve.
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Yo-Han
Ex Member



Re: NEW TORII Mk II - Sneak Preview
Reply #37 - 08/24/05 at 14:28:51
 
Quote:
 The bottom line is doesn't matter what the topology is, push pull, single ended, utlralinear and so on, all that matters is does it have the amazing clarity and holographic highly focused imaging with zero listener fatigue like all Decware amps, and the answer is - yes.



hehe should one hear even more

...i think the decware range is complete..there are SOOOO many people with 'less' efficient speakers out there,now they can try decware too..I've heard amazing conventional 3 way speakers lately (there are not many!)..,same thing here...you have good hi efficiency speakers and bad..good 2 - 3 - 4 way with complicated cross over and (lot's of) bad..


Comparisons?For Europe...hmmm, not many pp dual mono amps here for 2000 euros(2500$ about now)

for 1500 you have jolida, antique soundlabs, vincent tac,primaluna,affordable valve company..the whole chino-european armada..non are comparable..comparable would be UK quad etc..these retail  a lot more then 2500!

ps off course the dogs are jokes...i thought you were gonna rob the  petstore Wink

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Falconer
Ex Member



Re: NEW TORII Mk II - Sneak Preview
Reply #38 - 08/24/05 at 17:12:32
 
Can anyone give an opinion how this amp would match up with the HDT speakers ???
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Mike W
Ex Member



Re: NEW TORII Mk II - Sneak Preview
Reply #39 - 08/24/05 at 17:15:09
 
25 tube watts + 96db would certainly equal very loud Smiley
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60ndown
Ex Member



Re: NEW TORII Mk II - Sneak Preview
Reply #40 - 08/24/05 at 17:41:29
 
[quote author=Steve Deckert  link=1124759053/30#32 date=1124843670]

Dave,

I understand where you are coming from - and my positioning this amp as sort of our flagship might make it look as though we've abandoned our original ideals.  I can assure you that's not the case.  

I also understand that the market is saturated with 20 to 80 watt push pull amps, many that appear to be pretty good.  And for what they are many of them aren't too shabby but also many of them simply suck.

The last think we want to do is design ANOTHER inexpensive pushpull amp like the bare bones version you eluded to because honestly there are too many out there that would sound comparable.

Push pull amps typically sound like push pull amps.  That's what made SETs so popular.  With the exception of dynamics and weight I don't know of any push pull amps below 10 grand that sound better then a good SET amp.  

One of the problems with the difference in fidelity between the two is simply that too many audiophiles aren't set up to hear it.  They make two mistakes - one is they position their speakers too close to the wall to get any real depth in the soundstage and two-they use inefficient complex speakers that can't reveal the inner side of the music the way simpler speaker can.  Because of this, when they compare an SET with no feedback that is capable of unlimited soundstage to a push pull amp with feedback that only has 6 feet of depth no mater what.... they hear the depth of each as exactly the same.  And of course the inner detail the SET offers is lost on the busy speakers so again it sounds the same as the push pull.

After building our single ended amps for 10 years I have become spoiled by the superiority of the Single ended amps ability to communicate music to the listener.  My goal was to make this amplifier sound as good as the SET amps in all categories which frankly makes it non-comparable to all of the push pull amps presently offered anywhere near the price point.  Ironically the higher price points that go past the $4500.00 mark are usually higher power which automatically take them out of the competition because they can't sound as good.

The bottom line is doesn't matter what the topology is, push pull, single ended, utlralinear and so on, all that matters is does it have the amazing clarity and holographic highly focused imaging with zero listener fatigue like all Decware amps, and the answer is - yes.

Were now at 100.00 per watt of killer fidelity with this new amp, whereas before with the signature monoblocks were were at 1000.00 per watt.  Not to mention the money and time you'll save not having to find appropriate speakers.  

I have no plans for future Decware amps, the current line up is all anyone serious about listening would ever need.

Hope this helps - and yes it really does sound that much better then it's competition as time will tell.

Steve
[/quote]

nice-understood- agreed- can you make a car amp next please steve?(now your not busy?).....please,........ able to run tri-mode 100 wpc to the speakers and about 500+ for the sub-with the new amps characteristics-for under a grand! Cheesy
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« Last Edit: 08/24/05 at 17:42:32 by 60ndown »  
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veryoldcat
Ex Member



Re: NEW TORII Mk II - Sneak Preview
Reply #41 - 08/24/05 at 18:58:54
 
All,

The new Torii certainly opens up the range of usable speaker designs to (not quite) but almost anything. At a different juncture I would've got one.

I don't feel stuck with my speakers (Parker 98's), but it certainly took a leap of faith into unknown territory (based on my fascination with the sound of the se84cs) to go to the effort to diy the 2 ohm Parkers and basically throw away $3000 dollars worth of other speaker designs and mothball tons of old equipment to direct everything towards maximizing a 2 watt amp!

Quite a few of the best speaker options with the Decware low-powered set's are in the realm of diy, and speaker design in-the-know types. The non-diy options are ALSO in the realm of requiring a leap of faith, as the speaker options are often mostly directed towards ONLY these specialized low powered amps, or at least that would be the perception.

So, if you have misgivings about certain type speaker designs for the sort of things you listen to, you could be out of luck. For example, I have some misgivings about single driver designs (and even horns) for listening to symphonic music. Those misgivings might disappear if I had a *throw away 2K* to spend for experimenting as well as the diy time, but that's asking a lot of the average person, I think.

This amp levels the field quite a bit. I probably would have bought it if it was around when I was rebuilding my system, particularly if it comes so close to the magic of my little zen, as Steve believes it does. Now I'm in a different direction that would be costly to change, but before having changed everything to fit the se84cs, the Torii Mk II would have been much easier to own. I'd really like to hear it if I could afford the trip to Illinois!

Karl
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MUSICLOVER
Ex Member



Re: NEW TORII Mk II - Sneak Preview
Reply #42 - 08/25/05 at 03:31:34
 
Long time lurker posting (Actually, I was a member before but couldnt remember my screen name!!)

I first purchased a used 84C in Jan 01.  Mated with my Klipsch Fortes, I was in heaven!  I ran a Jolida 601 CDP direct, practically abandoned my jazz record collection to CD's.  I ended up buying a Select in June 01 (Steve, the serial# was 90 or 91, sent to M.H in Long Beach!)

This set-up replaced a CJ PV-5/CJ MV-75 with Spendor SP 1/2 Speakers.  The clarity, soundstage, imaging, jump, excitement, and realness with the Select/Klipsch combo was unreal!  BUT:

The most beautiful music I consistently ever heard to date has been through the Spendors.  Yes, the "loosey" box, BBC heritage, "British" sound, 3-way (!!)  crossover(!!!), standmount 1/2's consistently hit me emotionally. I cant recall all the times tear came to my eyes! And the times I cried. The times I played shadow vibes, drums, trumpets, pianos, violins, etc in my house.  Despite the veiled CJ gear, Despite the rich but, in my view, rounded old Tara Lab Quantum cables and speaker wires

So, why did I go to Klipsch?  Because I had an audio flashback to my military days when I ran Klipsch with Carvers!!  I know...I was young.  But the liveness of the classic Klipsch is unparralled!  I then had a sea change to tubes, and ultimately to Spendors. I've think I've found my musical and audio grail (I know, famous last words!!)

What does this have to do with the Torii MKII? Simple:  NOW I will go back to my Spendors because there is apparently an amp that will do them justice in the Zen manner. Now I know the imnportance of cables and wire (to me, at least!) The new Torri will allow me to return to the speakers that stole my heart.  I know there are many other amps that, technically and spec wise, would fit the bill.  But I'm sure of the Decware sound (particularly the Zen sound the Steve says will come through in the new Torii.)  And I know I'm sure of the beauty of thre classic Spendor 1/2 as it relates to me.  

The horror of bypassing Radials, The Horns, Parkers, Bob Brines, Omegas, OB and countless other outstanding single drive and/or crossover-less speakers for the Spendors?  Yes!  Thanks to the new Torii.  If it performs as claimed, Steve will take a massive leap forward in providing Zen magic to a broader, perhaps different, but no less passionate group of audiophiles....and music lovers!

Now, if you excuse me, I have some banks to rob in order to buy the Torii!







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barfind
Ex Member



Re: NEW TORII Mk II - Sneak Preview
Reply #43 - 08/25/05 at 03:53:38
 
Welcome Musiclover. The new PP amp will win alot of hearts that have a passion for speakers that dont fall into the "high" efficeny stable. Your Spendor speakers as well as many many others will now have a look in. Smart thinking from Steve, not only a great engineer, but a great bussinesman too.

Nigel
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Lon
Ex Member



Re: NEW TORII Mk II - Sneak Preview
Reply #44 - 08/25/05 at 10:38:18
 
Welcome back ML, and good points.
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