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NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007 (Read 24438 times)
Steve Deckert
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NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
08/24/07 at 13:15:11
 
While there will be a few new things presented at this years fest,  one in particular should be well worth the drive!  

For the serious SET enthusiast there is no question that the SE84CS and more recently SE84ZS Zen Triode Selects have been the most popular amp Decware sells.

In the spirit of "how far can it be taken" - how good can a single SV83 output tube per channel really get - I am pleased to announce the debut of the SE84ZSM Zen Triode Monoblocks.  As you know we had signature mono blocks on the market for many years -  those are pictured below:



The new SE84ZSM's are better. Smiley  In fact they're a lot better.  Truth is they smoke every Zen Triode amp that has ever been built, and not by just a narrow margin.

With over 2 years in development they are now a reality.  Some major changes that have occurred include the following:

1) A 900 volt 26MFD first section filter - increasing the compatibility with exotic rectifier tubes like the 274B.
2) A choke regulated pure polypropylene power supply - giving the amp incredible speed and dynamics.
3) OA3 Tube voltage regulation - also pure polypropylene - regulates the input stage.
4) A more refined output tube bias circuit that actually increased output tube life and power.
5) Direct and variable inputs where the input jacks are 2 inches away from the input stage.
6) General Electric Military Polypropylene Film coupling caps or optional Mundorf or VCAPS.

These new amps are built on our anniversary platform and are mirror imaged, ie. left and right.  Simply beautiful.



My guess is that these amps will dominate the fest.  Cost will be over a pair of SE84ZS or TABOO amps - but still more than reasonable.

Also it should be noted that while these amps like their predecessors still excel at driving low impedances down to 1 ohm, they WILL play a pair of 8 ohm HDT loudspeakers http://www.decware.com/newsite/HDT.htm insanely LOUD!!!  In fact a single SE84ZSM monoblock hooked to a single HDT loudspeaker will play as loud as a pair of HDT's hooked to a SE84ZS stereo model. They've really got some nuts!

When you hear these it is likely you will want to say goodbye to your copy cat and tweaked out Zens for good.

Come to the DECFEST and hear the best Zen Triode amps ever built!

Steve Smiley
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« Last Edit: 09/07/07 at 16:53:55 by Steve Deckert »  
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MikeW
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #1 - 08/24/07 at 13:30:08
 
Cool.....very cool indeed Smiley
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Terry
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #2 - 08/24/07 at 15:56:59
 

Uh oh!   Randy better bring his check book.

TG
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buzz
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #3 - 08/24/07 at 16:39:16
 
If a new DAC is released im going to freak out.  :o
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #4 - 08/24/07 at 17:15:46
 
Congratulations Steve Smiley

How many watts ( 6 watts)? We know it will sound gorgeous
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« Last Edit: 08/24/07 at 17:18:39 by kyrill »  


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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #5 - 08/24/07 at 17:21:52
 
Ah, even the content and complacent will be . . . atwitter! Smiley
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Randy in Caintuck
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #6 - 08/24/07 at 18:19:26
 
Terry wrote on 08/24/07 at 15:56:59:
Uh oh!   Randy better bring his check book.

TG



Nah .....

I'm certain that the new amps won't work very well with the CSP2 .....   Undecided

Randy
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rayd
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #7 - 08/24/07 at 18:47:52
 
Steve, any specs yet? How many watts per channel into 2 Ohms? And also, is it one output tube per channel?

Been considering the old mono's whenever they come up on Agon or somewhere (they do look sexy) but this might be a viable option.

Thanks,

- Ray
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buzz
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #8 - 08/24/07 at 19:04:09
 
I think I know what one of the new products is, Steve told me about it almost two years ago... he, he. (Not the ZS monoblocks) Amazing the R&D that Steve puts into every piece. I'm sure the forum will be FILLED with new faces!  ;)

Steve, thanks for your hard work!

buzz
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« Last Edit: 08/24/07 at 19:31:38 by buzz »  
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selmerdave
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #9 - 08/24/07 at 20:16:50
 
Ray,

I'm pretty sure it's one output tube, which any way you slice it is going to be a max of 2 or 2.5w per channel if it's triode strapped.

"In the spirit of "how far can it be taken" - how good can a single SV83 output tube per channel really get - I am pleased to announce the debut of the SE84ZSM Zen Triode Monoblocks."

I think it's a good thing for Decware to have a flagship SET, bravo Steve.  I'm curious about the OPT's.


Dave
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« Last Edit: 08/24/07 at 20:18:45 by selmerdave »  

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Terry
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #10 - 08/24/07 at 20:37:15
 

This was going to be my recomendation to Steve while visiting, as we really have just tipped the iceberg of what this combination of tubes can do.  In 2001 forum members talked about choke pi filters, and more recently all polly caps.  I really like the idea of optional coupling caps, this create the ability for his amp to make anyone happy.  I tried the Mundorf Silver Supremes in the Select, they sound wonderful, but not to my liking, I guess most of us that have fallen in love with the select are detail fanatics, we like the treble detail.  In reality you basically have to want a certain type of sound to like the Select, it is kind of like Lowthers in that once you have it you can't live without it, they say Lowther for life, I say SE84 for life.

Steve,

Have the SE84 series of amplfiers been the best sellers of all your line of amplfiers?

TG
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intraman
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #11 - 08/24/07 at 21:35:26
 
This is indeed great news .... I was calculating my outlay in boutique parts alone for my tweaked Zen and figured it was close to $900...  Plus all that time... Great news Steve!

Tim
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Steve Deckert
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #12 - 08/24/07 at 21:38:28
 
Regarding a DAC, yes I've done quite a bit of R&D on one, but it's still up in the air.  I had been working with Apogee over the past year and regrettably they got me so mad I just had to pull the plug on the whole project.  Details are between me and my poor neighbors who no doubt got to hear the grand finale last week.

I,ve taken it as a sign.  It would have just pissed off most of the people on this forum anyway since the price was likely to be several grand.  

In the meanwhile I am going to go back to a tubed CD player that will equal or surpass the previous two that I have done and it will be under a grand.

Steve

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intraman
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #13 - 08/24/07 at 21:42:39
 
Smiley More good news... And on the new Zen ....


"Uh oh!   Randy better bring his check book."

Indeed

Tim
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #14 - 08/24/07 at 23:08:22
 
Thanks Dave. I agree, glad Steve is bringing back the monos - albeit in a new suit  :-)

Even though I never owned a pair - but I did hear them (Dens) - I always get a warm fuzzy when I see photos of them  [smiley=peanuts21.gif]

- Ray
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #15 - 08/24/07 at 23:51:44
 
Looking forward to further reports! (just when I got my credit card payed off too! Roll Eyes)
Any info on the cdp?, type of transport, etc??
                                                                                                         Don
                         
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« Last Edit: 08/25/07 at 03:36:50 by Doorman »  

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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #16 - 08/25/07 at 03:42:55
 
Will the power supply redesign be able to be applied to produce a signiture version of  the CSP2 as well? ie: all poly caps, and choke regulated?

John C.

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subman
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #17 - 08/25/07 at 12:40:41
 
AH, THIS IS THE PRODUCT i HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR. A 240v version I hope Steve.
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #18 - 08/26/07 at 21:24:39
 
Oh Crap!!!!

I thought I had finished the upgrading on my amps. Just got settled with a pair pf CS`s and a CSP lol and along come these beauties.

When can we see some specs and design notes Steve?
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« Last Edit: 08/26/07 at 21:26:27 by Andy831 »  

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stone_of_tone
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #19 - 08/27/07 at 13:54:21
 
Standard input voltage from CDPlayer at 2 volts?  My AA Dac can be bumped up higher, but I prefer to keep it at 2V.....and use no preamp.  Awesome new Amps, Road Trip!!!

Stone of Tone  8-)
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subman
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #20 - 08/30/07 at 02:14:48
 
Steve, can this be pre-ordered?, I cant wait to get them in system.
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #21 - 08/31/07 at 03:27:49
 
Glory to God!
 
Oh boy... Smiley
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« Last Edit: 09/16/07 at 19:23:31 by Corey »  

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paulc
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #22 - 08/31/07 at 14:37:07
 
Sorry Corey but there are still some of us that are "dancing with the one that brung us".
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Randy in Caintuck
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #23 - 08/31/07 at 15:47:06
 
paulc wrote on 08/31/07 at 14:37:07:
Sorry Corey but there are still some of us that are "dancing with the one that brung us".



I know a couple of people who are dyed-in-the-wool DH-SET fans and will simply not listen to any amplifier that is not in that camp.  I have owned a couple of very highly regarded DH-SET amps (Korneff 45 and Wright Sound 2A3 monos).  They are fine amplifiers.  They sound a lot different than my SV83/EL84 based Decware Select (stock or modified).  Are they better ?  Some might think so .....  :-/

I'm still using the "tiny bottles" amp and the DH-SET amps went to live with someone else .....  ;)

In this hobby, personal taste is everything .....  8-)

Randy
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buzz
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #24 - 08/31/07 at 19:21:02
 
Randy in Caintuck wrote on 08/31/07 at 15:47:06:
I know a couple of people who are dyed-in-the-wool DH-SET fans and will simply not listen to any amplifier that is not in that camp.  I have owned a couple of very highly regarded DH-SET amps (Korneff 45 and Wright Sound 2A3 monos).  They are fine amplifiers.  They sound a lot different than my SV83/EL84 based Decware Select (stock or modified).  Are they better ?  Some might think so .....  :-/

I'm still using the "tiny bottles" amp and the DH-SET amps went to live with someone else .....  ;)

In this hobby, personal taste is everything .....  8-)

Randy



I love my 300B's but I know that nothing compares to the 'fast' SV83 tube. Each has their own sound. I'd like to hear how awful my amps sound next to Steves new monoblocks. I am not so sensitive to be upset over having an inferior sounding amp. That problem is easily fixed. I think hearing the differences first hand would be an education for me.

buzz
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Randy in Caintuck
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #25 - 08/31/07 at 19:53:27
 
Howdy buzz,

The guys I know that love their 300Bs and 2A3s prefer them to my Select.  I have no problem with that.

I doubt that your amplifiers sound "awful" compared to anything on the market.  From what I understand, they are top shelf ..... but, as you observed, "each has their own sound".

The best way to hear for yourself is to bring your amps to the DecFest in October ..... and your speakers of choice, if possible .....  8-)

It would be great to meet you in person,

Randy
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Terry
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #26 - 08/31/07 at 22:00:05
 


Just to throw a couple of pennies in here,  I think the closest sounding tube to the EL84 variety is the 45, sounds very similar to me.  But at the prices matches pairs are fetching, their not worth it to me.

TG
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Steve Deckert
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #27 - 08/31/07 at 23:39:11
 
Corey wrote on 08/31/07 at 03:27:49:
 
Oh boy... Smiley


Smiley Ego check!  

I know statements like that are more damaging then productive from a sales point of view BUT I've listened to probably more SET amps in the same room and on more supporting gear then anyone in this forum.  I believe the statement is completely true - that's why I said it.

I will admit that with a tweaked Sony Playstation as a source, there is no question that a DHT 2A3, 300B or 45 amp is absolutely going to sound sweeter then mine.  

Steve
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selmerdave
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #28 - 08/31/07 at 23:47:17
 
LOL!

Dave
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #29 - 09/01/07 at 02:46:31
 
Smiley
   Don
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Corey
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #30 - 09/02/07 at 05:47:49
 
Steve,

You seemed to have grasped the concept of the reality of "spirits" in this world as based on a post of your's a while back. No doubt the spirit of ourselves and the spirit of the person(s) singing, for example, on a recording dramatically contributes to our experience of the song. There is certainly something to be said comparing the voice of Gene Simmons growling into the mic with his tongue hanging out vs. a dainty damsel singing alongside a harp. Gene's voice will have his spirit and all his friends tagging along with him in the mix, hence the various cackling, rasping, hoarsness etc.   If the person is a perverted drug addict like Gene, well, he might resonate with that music because that's what his friends tagging along with him like to hear.

Talk to me 2-3 years ago, and I would be found in that category of people. A perverted, drunk, drug addicted, angry individual and my taste in music, or should I say my taste in sound reflected that: up front and personal.

Today things are different. I own 4 music discs and they all contain musicans who are sanctified, holy and born of the Spirit of God. The experience is in a word, purity. Seeing I myself also now am the same, well, my taste in sound reflects my choice in an amp: clean, immediate and velvety pure. I am not saying that one has to go to a DHT amp to get this, but you sure can't reach it running cheap electrolytic capacitors. No doubt your new amp will sound better, much cleaner, much blacker, but to say the previous amps sound the best, well, sorry, perhaps under the $1000.00 price range. There is lots of expensive stuff out there, and I don't mean commercial amps. I mean expensive components like output transformers etc.


Corey




Give God the praise and the honor for everything! Praise God!

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« Last Edit: 09/16/07 at 19:16:47 by Corey »  

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paulc
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #31 - 09/02/07 at 08:50:05
 
A coherent sentence?
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #32 - 09/02/07 at 17:37:10
 
Expensive components do NOT always make a better amp, its the way they are mixed together. Thats what put Decware on the map! Steve has proven to me that you don't need silver wound transformers or hand rolled caps to make a GREAT amp!!          Tish
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #33 - 09/02/07 at 18:37:44
 
Corey wrote on 09/02/07 at 05:47:49:
The experience is in a word, purity. Seeing I myself also now am the same, well, my taste in sound reflects my choice in an amp: clean, immediate and velvety pure.


Decware is the SIN PIT amp!  [smiley=laught.gif] Smiley Smiley Smiley
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #34 - 09/02/07 at 19:01:02
 
Tish wrote on 09/02/07 at 17:37:10:
Expensive components do NOT always make a better amp, its the way they are mixed together. Thats what put Decware on the map! Steve has proven to me that you don't need silver wound transformers or hand rolled caps to make a GREAT amp!!          Tish


*Well* said.

Dave
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Radio Craftsmen RC-2's on LF
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #35 - 09/02/07 at 19:32:24
 
Tish wrote on 09/02/07 at 17:37:10:
Expensive components do NOT always make a better amp, its the way they are mixed together.


True, but going with something in the premium range of output iron, for example, like Tamura or Plitron, doesn't take much mixing. You drop $2k and bolt it on. The iron alone is worth more than 2 of the amps Steve mentioned as being the "best."  I am not defending my amp, just living in reality.  There are alot of one-off custom amps out there that sound exceptional, every time they are turned on.



Corey
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #36 - 09/02/07 at 19:56:08
 
Again,  Dropping 2K on some trannies and bolting them on does NOT guaranty great sound. Its the total mix of the curcuit and ALL the components. If you mix them correctly (like Steve has done) you can make a GREAT amp without dropping 2K. You seem to be mixing sound quality with $ spent.    Tish
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selmerdave
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #37 - 09/02/07 at 20:17:23
 
Yeah, I would add that I have compared my Zen side-by-side with an $8k Airtight SET with Tamura iron and every expensive part in the book.  This was with a $30k front end and while it sounded good I did prefer my Zen.

I'll let Randy speak for himself but I doubt the iron in his SET amps that he dumped was shabby.

Dave
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Altec 604E's in MLTL cabs biamped w/Rane AC-22
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #38 - 09/02/07 at 23:15:14
 
Quote:
I am not defending my amp, just living in reality.


I kinda think the way you introduced yourself to this thread, set the stage for the reactions you are getting Corey. With the Oh Boy remark about something that many folks were excited about.

FWIW, I may be joining the DHT amp owners myself but I still like the Decware products.

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One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds.
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stevef
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #39 - 09/04/07 at 03:15:03
 
Funny how an announcement about a new amp gets mired in talk about exotic iron, DHT amps, and spirituality.  Now I expect some of the Decware faithful to shoot down other opinions, but yes there are some good amps out there.  I am curious about the new flagship amp, and listening to it at Zenfest.  

Steve
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #40 - 09/04/07 at 11:30:33
 
I am never shot down.....just shot at Wink
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One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds.
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #41 - 09/07/07 at 16:50:46
 
I have revised the first post of this thread.... please go to the top of page 1 and RE-READ it  :).

http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1187957711/0

Thanks,

Steve
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #42 - 09/07/07 at 18:00:22
 
Quote:
When you hear these it is likely you will want to say goodbye to your copy cat and tweaked out Zens for good.


Whoa Nellie Smiley Smiley Smiley

I can not come to the Zenfest but I will look forward to the impressions
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« Last Edit: 09/07/07 at 20:48:09 by MikeW »  

One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds.
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #43 - 09/07/07 at 18:29:58
 
Man, those are beautiful!!  If they sound as good as they look...

Scott.
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #44 - 09/07/07 at 19:10:46
 
Very nice.  That answers the OPT question, and I have to ask.  Any other amp in a similar price range has considerably more substantial OPT's.  I think if the potential buyer thinks that these OPT's are anything less than top notch - especially in this price range, they'll spend the money on a competitor's amp.  So I'm just wondering, Steve, if you can explain how it is that the Decware OPT's can be competitive with nice OPT's from Electraprint or Sowter or Magnequest, particularly when their iron for similar applications is across the board significantly larger.  Not that I doubt it but just wondering what the explanation is where all other high-end iron is larger, most cheaper iron is smaller, and Decware OPT's are also smaller.  With the Zen amps I can understand it's a simple issue of cost management, and that the OPT's supplied are the best combination of performance at a reasonable price (and I would agree about that), but in the close-to-$2k category I think that could be a turn-off, particularly in light of competitor's products.

Dave
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #45 - 09/07/07 at 19:41:28
 
Howdy Dave,

I think you should quit beating around the bush and just make your point .....  ;)

But, seriously, I think it is probably a design choice.  From the discussions I have had with Steve and a couple of other well respected amplifier designers it seems that there is no "perfect" iron.  Larger iron has its advantages and smaller iron does as well.  The final signature of the amplifier will be largely determined by the size of the OPTs ..... and Steve has made his preference a part of the design.

Of course, if I'm wrong about this, I'm sure that Steve will kindly correct me .....  :-?

Have a good weekend,

Randy
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« Last Edit: 09/07/07 at 19:49:27 by Randy in Caintuck »  

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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #46 - 09/07/07 at 21:37:25
 
I think you're probably right.  It just seems that conventional wisdom is that OPT's are the most important single part of a tube amp, any SET that I am aware of in the $1500+ price range includes some healthy-sized iron and that is often a selling point and price-justifier.  I also notice the Torii II has some big iron although I know PP and SET iron are fundamentally different.  Now as I pointed out in another thread, you for one dumped your other amps with bigger iron for your Select, and you aren't the only one around here that did that.  So I'm not necessarily going to have a hard time believing that there is a reason to choose the smaller iron, but given that Decware is virtually alone on it I would like to know why it's better than the bigger iron typically found on competitor's $2k amps.

Dave
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #47 - 09/07/07 at 23:50:22
 
This is a great reservation to bring up because I'm sure most people share it.  Nevertheless it annoys me to no end.  Between 1993 and 1996 when I was developing the Zen amps guess what I worked on almost the entire 3 years?  Please don't think it took 3 years to figure out how to arrange 2 resistors and 1 coupling cap for the best sound...

Yes, output transformers.  The output transformers in all of our amplifiers are EVERY BIT THE QUALITY OF - IF NOT MORE SO than Electraprint or Sowter or Magnequest or Peerless, regardless of cost.  Talk to the gurus who design output transformers and they will tell you that the prices some of these BIG HIGH END trannys bring is insane.

We live in an ignorant world where bigger is always better.  I have 14 e-mails in today's inbox alone urging me to increase my penis size.

In the development of the Zen output transformers (which are clearly the biggest secret to their sound quality) I spent no less then 2000 hours winding, listening to and unwinding transformers.  

I was blessed along the way with a chance encounter by an 80 year old man who worked for Peerless. He was a friend of a friend of mine and that friend brought him over to my house because he thought the old guy would get a real kick out of my dedication to finding the best way to wind a transformer for sound quality. Indeed the gentlemen took a real liking to me and shared many of his deepest secrets which I took seriously. He was one of the designers of the then famous Peerless iron that Altec and others used in their amplifiers.

Interestingly enough your concerns about our small transformers were addressed in a paper I wrote years ago. The President of Peerless call me on the phone after reading it to let me know he had no idea what I was talking about when I say scramble wound. I explained it to him exactly as the old guy explained it to me.

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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #48 - 09/07/07 at 23:52:53
 
Here is the paper for those who don't like to read the articles section of the site:

The secret behind the Zen Triode output transformers is that they are patterned after the older Peerless iron that was hand-scramble-wound for ultra wide bandwidth and flat response. If you are familiar with the any of the all time great vintage tube amps you already know the Peerless output transformers were a large factor.

Our transformers are also hand scramble wound using a winding topology that evolved from several prototypes.  The air-gapped cores are made from top grade USA made grain- oriented-silicon-steel - the heart of any transformer.  The better the core the less of it you need and the lower the saturation.  In contrast transformers made in China do not have the same quality steel and suffer as a result.

Add to that the fact that I choose to locate them on a different plane than the power transformer and at the opposite end of the amp where no field is present.  Instead of using end-bells the chassis is used to shield it- making the transformers appear about 1/2 the size they actually are.

I also choose a single 6 ohm tap because I found the single tap prototypes sounded better than the multi-taps, something about the unused taps.  The primary impedance is 9800 ohms with 2850 winds.  This makes the el84 and SV83 tubes couple more power as the speaker impedance drops.  Max power is at 2 ohms.

If you measure the current and voltage on an SE84C Zen Triode Amp with a 1KHZ sign at 2 volts you will find the current output actually exceeds the voltage.

Many people think transformers have to be huge to be good, but its all in the quality of the steel.

Another rather unique feature of our output transformers is that they float.  They have no reference to ground.  This is difficult to do in all but the most stable amplifier circuits.
Now there is a big fuss is over COBALT transformers

There is no evidence that "cobalt" transformer will sound better than our transformers in a Zen Triode Amp.  What it has going for it is a catchy name, high cost, low availability, and it's the hot topic over in Magnaquest/Bottlehead land.  I'm sure it's good, as is nickel, but after reading all the chit chat about it on the Internet I recognize that it's being largely overblown.  The majority if not all are done without air-gaps necessitating a para feed design.  We went through all that three years ago and concluded that para feed does not sound better to our ears.  It does however perform better which brings us down to the brass tacks of building amps that excel in performance (ie. para feed, constant current, etc.) or simpler "zen" like designs that to our ears sound better (but perform worse).  Take your choice.

The main advantages that nickel has over steel is less saturation.  There are two ways to deal with saturation.  A) use nickel or "cobalt", or B) just size the damn things 3 times bigger than they need to be so they don't saturate.  Our transformers do not saturate until somewhere between 15 and 20 watts.  Now depending on the amp we build, that is between 3 and 10 times over sized.  You can be sure that if someone is using expensive core materials like nickel or cobalt they aren't likely to oversize the transformers.

Many engineers will point out that transformers in general induce distortions and therefore not using one is better than using one.  Output transformer less amps (tube) are often great sounding amplifiers, however they are also finicky about speakers and have many other disadvantages.  We feel the transformer is a major key to why most people think tube amps sound better than solid state.  The transformer couples the output stage to the hostile impedance of the loudspeaker in a synergistic way not possible without one.

The common way of doing things in the high power high-end audio world is to build high power amplifiers with high dampening ratios so that they will better control the speaker and be less effected by the feedback voltage generated by it.  On the other end are speakers with high power ratings, low efficiency and complex crossovers that attempt to show the amp a less hostile impedance curve.  Basically put, amps that are less effected by (can't feel) the speakers, and speakers that are less effected by (can't feel) the amps.  

In a great high fidelity tube system the output transformer makes the speaker aware of the amp, and the amp aware of the speaker.  The two work together, reacting to each other with any given passage of music.  This is call synergy.  It is made possible by output transformers.  The best vintage solid state amps I've heard from the 60's and 70's used output transformers.
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #49 - 09/08/07 at 00:23:47
 
And yes, you're right - that answers the OPT question.  If there were something clearly superior to a Zen OPT I would have used it in these monos.  There isn't.

Steve Deckert

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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #50 - 09/08/07 at 01:29:20
 
Okay. . . regarding the photo. . . .

SHWING!
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #51 - 09/08/07 at 02:06:33
 
Yikes.

Steve, thanks for your reply, and sorry to annoy you.

Dave
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #52 - 09/08/07 at 03:55:16
 
Since we have entered the area of OPTs,  I have a question.  Older audiophiles will remember the Carver silver seven tube amp.  Bob Carver built a sample to prove he could build a great tube amp.  Mike Kay at Lyric Audio encouraged production, and it was distributed.  Enough background.  I remember hearing a pair with rather poor loudspeakers, not much of a demo.  The unusual aspect of the amp was that each output had two OPTs, and I don't believe that they were identical.  My question is "Why two different paralleled trannies?''  I haven't seen this configuration anywhere else.

Steve
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #53 - 09/08/07 at 05:42:23
 
Dave - you didn't annoy me at all.  IT annoys me.  You simply pointed out what most people would logically think and gave me an opportunity to address it.

SteveF - The original Torii used two separate transformers for each half of the push/pull but they were in series and matched.  To use two different size transformers in parallel would do a number of things... The saturation pattern on each core would be different... This could possibly protect the midrange from bass saturation letting you push the amp harder with less iron making a grand opportunity for cost savings.  It would also no doubt alter the signature of the amplifier in interesting ways in which case it may have been an attempt to create something rather special - similar to what i did with the original Torii.   It could have also not really been in parallel in which case you would double the number of primary taps which would allow you to wire it like a Macintosh for better damping.
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #54 - 09/08/07 at 13:23:59
 
I see two inputs on each monoblock - I'm guessing one is for use with the pot and the other is direct (bypassing the pot)?

Also, couldn't find much on the OA3 tube on the internet. If it's used for voltage regulation, is there any tube-rolling advantages for this particular type?



- Ray
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #55 - 09/08/07 at 14:11:18
 
Ray - No tube rolling with the OA3's required.  We spend a lot of time worrying about clean power and in these amps the B+ that feeds the input tube goes through the OA3 meaning that it jumps the gap between anode and cathode before it feeds the input stage.  Think of it as electrons traveling between the power supply and the input tube with NO WIRE.

Steve
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #56 - 09/08/07 at 14:30:22
 
If I'm understanding correctly then, the 0A3 is the tube eqivalent of a Zener diode.  

John C.

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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #57 - 09/09/07 at 01:58:23
 
An OA3 is the tube equivalent of a Zener diode, yes.   Except the OA3 looks WAY COOLER when it's on.
Steve
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #58 - 09/11/07 at 02:55:53
 
And here is what it looks like in the alternate black zen base...  



Steve Smiley
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #59 - 09/11/07 at 06:26:47
 
What happened to the high and low bias position switch for the input valve on the new mono's? Angry

(I've never been a fan of the high bias position on the original se84cs. In fact, I hate the "amped" high bias sound on my Select, but prefer the more relaxed low bias position).

Karl
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #60 - 09/11/07 at 13:03:58
 
Bias switch:  Same as the SE84ZS.  The switch is eliminated.  The tube is biased mid way between the two points.
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #61 - 09/11/07 at 13:08:16
 
Steve Deckert wrote on 09/11/07 at 02:55:53:
And here is what it looks like in the alternate black zen base...  

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/1505/se84zsm024cv3.jpg

Steve Smiley


Very beautiful... I like the new lighted power switches.
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #62 - 09/11/07 at 20:44:55
 
Steve Deckert wrote on 09/08/07 at 00:23:47:
And yes, you're right - that answers the OPT question.  If there were something clearly superior to a Zen OPT I would have used it in these monos.  There isn't.

Steve Deckert

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The reality Steve is that a Plitron transformer won't fit on your chassis. I am not saying that a Plitron is superior because it is more expensive. It is superior because of its design/designer. Bigger is not always better, true. But in this case, better happens to be bigger.



Corey



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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #63 - 09/11/07 at 22:11:24
 
Corey wrote on 09/11/07 at 20:44:55:
The reality Steve is that a Plitron transformer won't fit on your chassis. I am not saying that a Plitron is superior because it is more expensive. It is superior because of its design/designer. Bigger is not always better, true. But in this case, better happens to be bigger.



Corey





Come on. You really think the flagship amplifier by Decware had it's OPT dictated by the chassis size?

Jason
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #64 - 09/11/07 at 23:00:22
 
Corey: Maybe you should wait a bit befor passing judgement on something none of us have yet heard! Roll Eyes
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #65 - 09/11/07 at 23:18:51
 
Randy in Caintuck wrote on 08/24/07 at 18:19:26:
Nah .....I'm certain that the new amps won't work very well with the CSP2 .....   UndecidedRandy


Is this true or are you bs-ing us?

I never put my CS in the high bias position.  Having this amp at the midway will probably be right where I like it.  Does anyone know if a pre recommended?  Will the black zen base cost more?

I want one(two) .
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« Last Edit: 09/11/07 at 23:20:55 by rmt »  

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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #66 - 09/11/07 at 23:55:39
 
I'm quite sure Randy's comment was in jest...

Dave
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #67 - 09/12/07 at 06:59:27
 

That's just Randy's attempt to talk himself out of buying one, although for the amount he has spent on the rest of his system(s), I think he will spring for them soon or later.  I mean how could he not they sound like a PERFECT match for a CSP2 preamp.  Now if Steve would make a pair in the old black chassis style Randy could not resist that, in fact that is what Steve should do make a black pair to match the old style CSP and have it at the fest.  I would bet money that Randy would ride home with them if he did.

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« Last Edit: 09/12/07 at 06:59:43 by Terry »  
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #68 - 09/12/07 at 10:18:35
 
Spending Randy's money is fun! Wink
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #69 - 09/12/07 at 10:29:24
 
What are you guys talking about? Randy is buying a geetar!  8-)

Randy in Caintuck wrote on 09/04/07 at 13:35:37:
Yep .....

I recently purchased a stand for my trusty old Takamine acoustic guitar.  Until now, it had sat in its case and I walked past it several times a day.  With it sitting on a stand, almost every time I walk by, it gets picked up and played ..... if just for a few minutes .....  8-)

A few of the songs on one of the David Munyon CDs kept going through my head, so I sat down and figured out the chords.  I am getting a great deal of pleasure playing and singing these songs ..... even  with my "croaking" voice .....  ::)

My local music equipment store will be taking on the Taylor line of acoustic guitars in the next week or two.  The last time I played a Taylor, it even made me sound pretty good .....  ;D

There may be a purchase in the near future .....

Randy  
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« Last Edit: 09/12/07 at 10:30:20 by rayd »  

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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #70 - 09/12/07 at 10:35:25
 
Terry wrote on 09/12/07 at 06:59:27:
Now if Steve would make a pair in the old black chassis style...


Terry, I love the old style monos with the chrome decks - absolutely sexy looking. I think Steve also made the monos in the not so dressed up black boxes also.

And don't forget the drool towel  :)
http://www.decware.com/towel.jpg" alt="" title="" border="0" />

- Ray
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #71 - 09/12/07 at 13:22:20
 
rmt wrote on 09/11/07 at 23:18:51:
Is this true or are you bs-ing us?




Howdy rmt,

I'm pretty certain that Steve would have made very sure that the new mono amps work just fine with my beloved CSP2.

As a few of the others suggested ..... I'm just trying to keep a few dollars in my wallet ..... for a change .....  ;)

Like everyone else, I'm looking forward to hearing Steve's new offerings .....  8-)

Regards,

Randy
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #72 - 09/12/07 at 14:42:37
 
paulc wrote on 09/12/07 at 10:18:35:
Spending Randy's money is fun! Wink




Unfortunately, Mrs. Randy has become quite good at it ..... like I needed any help .....  ;D


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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #73 - 09/12/07 at 18:19:17
 
morpheous85 wrote on 09/11/07 at 22:11:24:
Come on. You really think the flagship amplifier by Decware had it's OPT dictated by the chassis size?

Jason


Absolutely.
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #74 - 09/12/07 at 19:29:35
 
Doorman wrote on 09/11/07 at 23:00:22:
Corey: Maybe you should wait a bit befor passing judgement on something none of us have yet heard! Roll Eyes
                                                                                                                            Don


Don,

First off let me explain where I am coming from. I spent a great deal of money taking the Decware output transformers to the limit by having a Decware amp of mine modified by Eddie Vaughn of Vaughn Audio. That particular amp used EL34's which can be run hotter and with more current than the SV83's. A tube that really shed light on exactly what the Decware output transformers could handle in terms of current.

In an effort to get more low end attack, the designer attempted more current but to no avail. You simply can't change the laws of physics. In dealing with an SET transformer, the design will saturate at a given point, hence larger iron is used to handle more current. If you want the low end grunt and impact that makes an SET sound like a 200 watt SS, then you NEED large iron, that's reality.

After talking about the shortcomings of the Decware iron in the low end registers, Eddie told me that the midbass attack was incredible and very musical, and that is the key to the Decware sound, the midbass. When the midbass is fast, fluent and doesn't interfere with the midrange coherency, the sound can be very good. Couple that with the fact that many customers have not put any effort in their rooms to deal with low end modal issues, and the midbass response can be favourable. Nothing appears to be missing. This is how Decware customers are hearing their SET's on the average full range driver or speaker system not incorporating a sub system. The music is enjoyable and the bass lines track musically, snappy and coherent.

Enter the next step into an SET amp: large iron. Is large iron a trade off in sound? Not if you go with the good stuff. The trade off is cost and space. You can't sell an amp to broke audiophiles using expensive iron and you can't tuck that iron inside your amp making everything look all clean, petite and pretty. Amen?

So to answer your statement, I would have to be waiting for the laws of physics to change to be guilty of passing judgement on the new mono blocks without hearing them. Been there, done that, spent $2500 on the T-shirt. Perhaps if I owned a pair of Decware Corner Horns in a perfect custom room then I might be satisfied with the low end authority of the Decware iron. Unfortunately I will never own a pair of those speakers and it appears that not many others will be owning a pair as well. I have heard of only one pair built since the introduction of the plans.

That leaves myself and the thousands of others owning full range cabinets with the option to spend more money and enjoy the attack and authority that only expensive, large wound transformers can produce. This means getting in touch with someone who CAN build you an exceptional sounding, one-off custom amp and it also means starting at around $2000. If I am going to be spending $2000 on amplification, I certainly am not going to limit my low end response with Decware iron. Scrabble wound, monopoly wound, call it what you like. The low end pressure is severely lacking compared to what's available.

Am I making many friends with this post? Most likely not. Am I against Decware? Not at all, but when I think of the name, I think of speakers.



Corey
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #75 - 09/12/07 at 20:05:15
 
Gee Corey, obviously you are not a fan of Decware amps, but what you're saying sounds an awful lot like someone else's sales pitch.  Just because you think that the iron you now have does everything the Decware iron did and more, doesn't mean that everyone would agree with you.  There are plenty of people who would and have willfully chosen Decware amps over amps just like yours, and not exclusively because of their "crappy rooms" or your other implications.

You are very much coming across as though your opinion is definitive and "correct", which is awfully presumptuous.  So you prefer another amp and subscribe to someone else's philosophy, big deal.  Not too many people have the same tastes.

Dave
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #76 - 09/12/07 at 20:15:12
 
Corey,
1. You are right about the importance of the room.
2. I disagree about the Decware iron. Are you confining your "limited bass" to the SET  line up?
3. Both of the Torii's with the Imperials will produce chest thumping, clear as as a bell low end bully.
4. I agree with Dave, you're coming of as a marketing pitch.

Tim
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #77 - 09/12/07 at 20:26:53
 
Running an sv83 OPT with EL34s? Ya it's going to saturate!

I think in the end it comes down to taste. Everyone knows that tube amps have higher measureable distortion that SS. However, most people prefer tube amps, even though they are scientifically inferior.

Steve went to the expense of 0C3 tube regulators, which could have been done with Zener diodes or even left out all together. I don't think chassis size would be the deciding factor of the sound quality. Especially in what's supposed to be his best sounding amplifier, and the top of the line.

Jason
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #78 - 09/12/07 at 21:05:49
 
change_out wrote on 09/12/07 at 20:15:12:
Corey,
3. Both of the Torii's with the Imperials will produce chest thumping, clear as as a bell low end bully.

Tim


I agree totally with this statement, Tim, except both of the Torii's go against what's being discussed, in fact they almost prove Corey correct.  That, and the Imperials are hardly a fair speaker to use as a bass reference comparison.

4. I agree with Dave, you're coming of as a marketing pitch.

Marketing pitch or reality check?  Corey has spent enough $$ to know what works at what doesn't, therefore his opinion is justified.




Jason
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #79 - 09/12/07 at 21:27:24
 
Jason wrote on 09/12/07 at 21:05:49:
I agree totally with this statement, Tim, except both of the Torii's go against what's being discussed, in fact they almost prove Corey correct.


The original Torii used the same OPT's as Zen amps, albeit in a different configuration.

Quote:
Marketing pitch or reality check?  Corey has spent enough $$ to know what works at what doesn't, therefore his opinion is justified.


Plenty of others (Steve Deckert included) have spent as much or more $$ than Corey and come to different conclusions than has he.  His is one opinion among the many.

Dave
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #80 - 09/12/07 at 21:34:32
 
Jason wrote on 09/12/07 at 21:05:49:
... reality check?  ...

Jason



Lets get to the point then and be brutally honest... I have not heard any SE amp that was up to task in the bass department. I mean bass so tight, so real that nausea is an issue. I have 'big iron' and the bass response is better than smaller iron. But the fact is that it still is not enough... even with the imperial. I end up using SS for the lowest octave. I wish I could truely run single driver full range. But I am caught in the enigma of how a small OPT can sound sweeter, more detailed, and even more holographic than larger iron. But Corey is completely right that for bass bigger iron is better. Here is something to think about... I find cheap Hammond 125CSE OPT to sound very sweet at the top, maybe even better than my Electraprint iron.

Perhaps Steve realizes true magic is in the midrange and top... and is not willing to give that up. It is not that he can't make big iron, it is that he is not willing to compromise what makes his amps special.

So we really are all in the same boat... we wish one amp could do it all, but guess what... one amp can't. How you address that issue is your own compromise.

buzz
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« Last Edit: 09/12/07 at 21:47:20 by buzz »  
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #81 - 09/12/07 at 21:52:41
 

The best amps I have heard with bass response are class D, perhaps that is because of their super high damping factors, but they can sure slam a note.

TG
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #82 - 09/12/07 at 22:09:32
 
As has been mentioned several times in this thread ..... personal taste is the real issue.

Having said that, I am not a "bass freak" by any means.  The music that is my standard fare leans more toward the acoustic side with the lowest notes being produced by an acoustic bass or piano.  I am not much into electronically produced bass.  A Decware Select and CSP2 driving a pair of speakers with the capability to reproduce the bass notes produced by acoustic instruments is extremely realistic and satisfying.  It has been my experience that a good number of folks have been conditioned by the over-emphasized bass that dominates popular music.

I attend events on a regular basis where live piano and acoustic bass are played (unamplified) and I have no complaints about the bass I am hearing from my home system .....  8-)

Steve has stated often that the CSP2 "completes" the sound of the Zen amps and takes the sound to the next level.  The enhanced bass is a big part of that package.  Don't make the mistake of thinking that the Select is bass shy (with suitable speakers) until you have heard it with the CSP2.

Randy
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« Last Edit: 09/12/07 at 22:10:32 by Randy in Caintuck »  

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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #83 - 09/12/07 at 22:12:53
 
change_out wrote on 09/12/07 at 20:15:12:
2. I disagree about the Decware iron. Are you confining your "limited bass" to the SET  line up?


Yes, SET.

Quote:
3. Both of the Torii's with the Imperials will produce chest thumping, clear as as a bell low end bully.


No doubt, they are push/pull. Again, when I think of Decware, I think of speakers and the Imperial SO's are one of the speaker's I think about!

Quote:
4. I agree with Dave, you're coming of as a marketing pitch.



I am a farmer and sell grain and cattle, not audio. I used to be really good friends with Eddie Vaughn and we talked on the phone regularly but I haven't talked to him in months. Last time I went to Hawthorne Audio the Carina wasn't available in the shopping cart. I don't know if he even sells it anymore.


Corey
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« Last Edit: 09/12/07 at 22:15:01 by Corey »  

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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #84 - 09/12/07 at 22:43:44
 
Randy in Caintuck wrote on 09/12/07 at 22:09:32:
As has been mentioned several times in this thread ..... personal taste is the real issue.

 It has been my experience that a good number of folks have been conditioned by the over-emphasized bass that dominates popular music.

Randy


Very true, Randy.  My audio systems have always had fairly flat frequency responses.  The bass is there, but not overpowering.  You miss it if it's rolled off, but its never the dominant feature.   Besides, there's not much below 40hz unless it's artificially introduced.

Jason

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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #85 - 09/12/07 at 22:49:41
 
buzz wrote on 09/12/07 at 21:34:32:
Lets get to the point then and be brutally honest... I have not heard any SE amp that was up to task in the bass department. I mean bass so tight, so real that nausea is an issue.

buzz


Tight realistic bass should make you want to listen to it all night, not make you puke.

Did I miss something?

Jason
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #86 - 09/12/07 at 23:18:25
 
"The central research theme of Dr. Vladimir Gavreau was the development of remote controlled automatons and robotic devices. To this end he assembled a group of scientists in 1957."

"Housed in a large concrete building, the entire group periodically experienced a disconcerting nausea which flooded the research facility."

"The source was finally traced by building engineers to an improperly installed motor-driven ventilator."

"It was found that a low intensity pitch of a fundamental 7 cycles per second was being produced.  It became obvious that the slow vibrating motor was activating an infrasonic resonant mode in the large concrete duct. Operating as the vibrating "tongue" of an immense "organ pipe", the rattling motor produced nauseating infrasound."

-- Quotes taken from http://www.borderlands.com/archives/arch/gavreaus.htm

That's bass that makes you puke!

Jason
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #87 - 09/13/07 at 00:05:44
 
Jason wrote on 09/12/07 at 22:49:41:
Tight realistic bass should make you want to listen to it all night, not make you puke.

Did I miss something?

Jason

It is an interesting phenomenon, no pain is involved, and no other warnings signs of too high of volume, just nausea. The incredible realistic bass is addictive so perhaps I am listening at too high a volume, but I don't think so. Yes, it does occur more often with music with electronic bass, but not exclusively. I knew I shouldn't have mentioned this.  ::) It makes no sense unless you have experienced it. Effects of frequencies as high as 100hz have been documented.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3912/is_200702/ai_n18632410/pg_3
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« Last Edit: 09/13/07 at 00:09:33 by buzz »  
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #88 - 09/13/07 at 23:14:14
 
SE84ZSM
120/240 volt Zen Triode Monoblocks (pr)
$2095.00


It seems my mouse is going into autopilot towards the master catalog page........help help......I can't stop......

C Evans
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #89 - 09/14/07 at 00:04:28
 
Well someone beet me to it..  [smiley=10.gif]  

I've finally calculated the price on these and it comes out to about 2250.00 for the pair so I'm going to sell the first 10 for 2095.00 pr.  I have added it to the master catalog but not yet to the web site.  That may not happen until after the Decfest07.  The master catalog can be found at this link:  http://www.decware.com/newsite/mastercatalog.htm

Thanks,

Steve
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #90 - 09/14/07 at 05:19:43
 
buzz wrote on 09/13/07 at 00:05:44:
It is an interesting phenomenon, no pain is involved, and no other warnings signs of too high of volume, just nausea. The incredible realistic bass is addictive so perhaps I am listening at too high a volume, but I don't think so. Yes, it does occur more often with music with electronic bass, but not exclusively. I knew I shouldn't have mentioned this.  ::) It makes no sense unless you have experienced it. Effects of frequencies as high as 100hz have been documented.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3912/is_200702/ai_n18632410/pg_3


I don't think anyone is referring to infrasonics in reference to music, are they?

You should be safe from nausea at normal listening volumes, even if you are sensitive to higher bass frequencies.
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« Last Edit: 09/14/07 at 05:21:06 by Dirty_Dawg »  

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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #91 - 09/14/07 at 06:05:20
 

All I can say about this whole transformer thing is that I like what I hear, and have added subwoofers, biamped, super efficient large 30" woofers, and it just doesn't add much to the music for me.  I guess I just am not into bass that much, but I am still playing around.  Intraman on this forum was going to try an interesting infinite baffle subwoofer with the Select, haven't heard any resulting feedback yet.

I can't wait to hear them, I hope Steve has a regular Select handy to compare at the Zenfest.

TG
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« Last Edit: 09/14/07 at 06:06:54 by Terry »  
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #92 - 09/14/07 at 16:52:12
 
Corey wrote on 09/12/07 at 19:29:35:
Enter the next step into an SET amp: large iron. Is large iron a trade off in sound? Not if you go with the good stuff. The trade off is cost and space. You can't sell an amp to broke audiophiles using expensive iron and you can't tuck that iron inside your amp making everything look all clean, petite and pretty. Amen?



In my experience large iron favors bass performance at the expense of some magic in the upper ranges. This would hold true with any type of transformer regardless of cost. So I have to respectfully disagree with this statement.

Quote:
That leaves myself and the thousands of others owning full range cabinets with the option to spend more money and enjoy the attack and authority that only expensive, large wound transformers can produce. This means getting in touch with someone who CAN build you an exceptional sounding, one-off custom amp and it also means starting at around $2000. If I am going to be spending $2000 on amplification, I certainly am not going to limit my low end response with Decware iron. Scrabble wound, monopoly wound, call it what you like. The low end pressure is severely lacking compared to what's available.

Am I making many friends with this post? Most likely not. Am I against Decware? Not at all, but when I think of the name, I think of speakers.


Corey


Well I appreciate your enthusiasm for your findings but it is after all largely your opinion - results will vary for other people. Those with speakers that have real bass to begin with... and or those who would place more priority on the overall signature of an amp than visceral bass, for example.

In any case Decware is proudly known for it's amplifiers and will continue to be regardless of the fact that when you think of the name, you think of speakers.  You really have to wonder why a guy would make a statement like that in the very thread I used to announce our best SET amp ever...

Just out of curiosity I'd like to know why it was so important for you to get involved in this thread to begin with?  I'm sorry you tried to alter the design of your Decware SE34I and failed.  If you wanted that SET sound with superior bass performance you should have just got a TORII.  I don't care how much money you spend on iron for an SET, it will never have the bass performance of push-pull.  

For the record I know and like Eddy too.  I think his amps are great.  Hopefully I don't have customers over there in his forums trying to explain why Decware amps are so superior... that would be rather embarrassing.  Especially in a thread where he announces his latest new amplifier.

Steve
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #93 - 09/14/07 at 17:43:24
 
Hi Steve,

I was just telling Bob how sorry I am that I won't be able to come to Decfest with him. I would dearly love to hear these amps. It looks like budget may allow me to make a major audio purchase sometime near the end of the year so I am looking forward to hearing reviews before I make that move.

I have heard the TorII and I love the sound. I have also heard a SE34I.2 with some tube rolling and I have to admit, I was very taken with it as well. Add that to a Taboo, and an Eddie Vaughn amp and I have to admit, I like the Decware signature sound. Although each amp has it's own characteristics, they all seem to have something in common.

For the record, I am in the process of building several experiments. A couple of these include the Fostex FE126E drivers and there is a very distinct possibility that I will be building a set of corner horns and ordering your new drivers to put in them.

Considering those drivers and the fact that for general listening, I am not looking to make myself sick, do you think these amps would be a better choice than the TorII?

I will likely be running a seperate subwoofer for those times when I feel like pounding the walls, but generally, I will just be running the stereo pair of corner horns for listening enjoyment. I think the TorII may be overkill, but then I am thinking the same of the Monos to be honest. I was very seriously considering the SE34I.2 (the $1495 price tag is rather playing a part in that as well).

Just wondering if you thought the new amps would be more suitable, especially considering my tendency towards speaker swapping all the time. And the fact that my music tastes are rather eclectic.

Either way, these are super sexy and I can't wait to audition them somewhere, sometime!

Take care,
Robert
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« Last Edit: 09/15/07 at 00:27:51 by musgofasa »  

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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #94 - 09/14/07 at 21:21:52
 
Now if only this thread http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1189017032 got this much attention! I'm still very excited! What's the cost of the ZPOD Steve????

Jason
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #95 - 09/15/07 at 12:03:24
 
Quote:
For the record I know and like Eddy too.  I think his amps are great.  Hopefully I don't have customers over there in his forums trying to explain why Decware amps are so superior... that would be rather embarrassing.  Especially in a thread where he announces his latest new amplifier.


I think Eddie would be just as embarrassed to learn that this level of evangelical zeal was being preached in his name. For what it's worth Steve, I'm sorry. Smiley
We all know Eddie and have witnessed examples of his integrity. When he decided to go into business building amplifiers, he immediately took himself off the Decware forum to avoid conflicts of interest. Steve was also gracious in wishing him well in his venture. It's easy to forget that in terms of hi-fi philosophy, the two people are much more similar than different. There's sufficient room in the market for both brands to exist without the need to denigrate either. Unfortunately, some people seem to have lost perspective on this matter.
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« Last Edit: 09/15/07 at 12:11:26 by giorgino »  
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #96 - 09/15/07 at 12:31:29
 
Well said, both Steve and Giorgino!

I look forward to listening to these new amps real soon.
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #97 - 09/15/07 at 14:13:35
 
giorgino wrote on 09/15/07 at 12:03:24:
I think Eddie would be just as embarrassed to learn that this level of evangelical zeal was being preached in his name. For what it's worth Steve, I'm sorry. Smiley
We all know Eddie and have witnessed examples of his integrity. When he decided to go into business building amplifiers, he immediately took himself off the Decware forum to avoid conflicts of interest. Steve was also gracious in wishing him well in his venture. It's easy to forget that in terms of hi-fi philosophy, the two people are much more similar than different. There's sufficient room in the market for both brands to exist without the need to denigrate either. Unfortunately, some people seem to have lost perspective on this matter.



Hear, hear!!

There's always room in the marketplace for 1 of the folks who gives a damn.  One size does NOT fit all.
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #98 - 09/15/07 at 14:42:23
 
giorgino wrote on 09/15/07 at 12:03:24:
I think Eddie would be just as embarrassed to learn that this level of evangelical zeal was being preached in his name. For what it's worth Steve, I'm sorry. Smiley
We all know Eddie and have witnessed examples of his integrity. When he decided to go into business building amplifiers, he immediately took himself off the Decware forum to avoid conflicts of interest. Steve was also gracious in wishing him well in his venture. It's easy to forget that in terms of hi-fi philosophy, the two people are much more similar than different. There's sufficient room in the market for both brands to exist without the need to denigrate either. Unfortunately, some people seem to have lost perspective on this matter.


Even as much as I avoid agreeing with anyone on anything, I have to whole-hearted agree with you, here.

I honestly don't understand what Corey is trying to do with his wide-brush statements, but his credibility is taking a hit.
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« Last Edit: 09/15/07 at 15:10:17 by Dirty_Dawg »  

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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #99 - 09/15/07 at 16:43:56
 
Corey has his opinions and makes valid points in some of his arguments. They can be agreed with or disagreed with. But I believe Steve hit the nail on the head. This thread was about Steve's new amp and to spur excitement from the community that is interested in them and may indeed even buy a pair of them. I am quite sure Steve shared this with the forum folks because he is quite proud of what he believes is the best work he has done. Bottom line, Corey...right or wrong, showed poor taste in using this thread to express his opinions.



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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #100 - 09/15/07 at 19:48:10
 
Unfortunatly these things happen.  As audiophiles we are all passionate about music and the devices we choose to listen through.  I know at times I have had to "count to ten" before commenting on an attack of my observations.  I think Steve Deckert handeled this one rather well.  Audio really isn't a contact sport.  
An easy solution may be to bring a couple of different amps to Zenfest, level match them, and line 'em on Friday night.

Steve
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #101 - 09/15/07 at 22:01:22
 
All Steve has to do is rename this amp "The King James Version Zen."

Wink

It sure is righteous enough!
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« Last Edit: 09/15/07 at 22:58:41 by Lon »  

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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #102 - 09/15/07 at 22:06:47
 
giorgino wrote on 09/15/07 at 12:03:24:
I think Eddie would be just as embarrassed to learn that this level of evangelical zeal was being preached in his name. For what it's worth Steve, I'm sorry. Smiley
We all know Eddie and have witnessed examples of his integrity. When he decided to go into business building amplifiers, he immediately took himself off the Decware forum to avoid conflicts of interest. Steve was also gracious in wishing him well in his venture. It's easy to forget that in terms of hi-fi philosophy, the two people are much more similar than different. There's sufficient room in the market for both brands to exist without the need to denigrate either. Unfortunately, some people seem to have lost perspective on this matter.


ditto.
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #103 - 09/15/07 at 23:15:04
 
Lon wrote on 09/15/07 at 22:01:22:
All Steve has to do is rename this amp "The King James Version Zen."

Wink

It sure is righteous enough!

Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #104 - 09/15/07 at 23:45:50
 
MikeW wrote on 09/15/07 at 23:15:04:
Grin Grin Grin Grin


Careful there bud. Smiley

If Steve did it would be the best amp ever KJV Zen 1611.00 the king of all the tube amps

The experience is considered " religious and enlightening "

"Wescott and Hort editions pale in comparison to this amp". says  Jerry Falwell of audio bliss magazine
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #105 - 09/16/07 at 01:24:04
 
Lon wrote on 09/15/07 at 22:01:22:
All Steve has to do is rename this amp "The King James Version Zen."


Heh heh heh...

There was once a time where "The Raw Meat Zen" would have suffice. Smiley

Me thinks there is a pattern a showin'
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« Last Edit: 09/16/07 at 01:40:45 by giorgino »  
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #106 - 09/16/07 at 02:46:46
 
giorgino wrote on 09/16/07 at 01:24:04:
Heh heh heh...

There was once a time where "The Raw Meat Zen" would have suffice. Smiley

Me thinks there is a pattern a showin'


Yup! Smiley Don
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #107 - 09/16/07 at 08:24:40
 
[quote .

In the meanwhile I am going to go back to a tubed CD player that will equal or surpass the previous two that I have done and it will be under a grand.

Steve

[/quote]


 Awesome Mr.D, thats the kinda talk I've been waiting to hear Cool



 Regarding the reason for this thread: 'the new amps'  Way cool Steve, if I had the dough right now I'd go for it in a second.

Last summer I bought the Taboo amp from you and have never been so drawn into the music  ever in my life, and if you believe these new ones are your best yet then I could just imagine how good these must be.    Dave Smiley

 
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« Last Edit: 09/16/07 at 08:26:29 by DaveCan »  
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #108 - 09/16/07 at 18:07:04
 
Not to flog a dead horse, but wow, such self-important arrogance coming from someone around this thread whose name begins with a "C". Heads so large on the outside are frequently shrunken on the inside. Tongue

I have freakin' hard-edged opinions, also, but hopefully a sense of humility as to how they fit in context among folks I consider friends, and wish to continue in dialog with.  

That said, the new mono's are VASTLY interesting; I would be among the first ten owners in a heart beat, if my current finances would support it!  Hmmm, what to sell, what to sell Smiley

Karl
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #109 - 09/16/07 at 18:38:50
 
MikeW wrote on 09/15/07 at 16:43:56:
Bottom line, Corey...right or wrong, showed poor taste in using this thread to express his opinions.




With all due respect, Corey - this ain't the first time.   In the "spirit" (can I use that word, or do you hold a monopoly?) of freedom of speech, we should all be allowed some tolerance, but considering your history on this forum, I think Steve's gracious forbearance is commendable.


You're not the only member of this forum to enjoy a personal, if long distance relationship with Eddie, and you're doing no-one any favors with your comments or "quotes" in his name.


Perhaps after you have invested as much time, sweat and blood as either of these two designers, your opinions as to the merits of their design philosophies or "compromises" might bear more credence.

 


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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #110 - 09/16/07 at 19:14:00
 
veryoldcat wrote on 09/16/07 at 18:07:04:
Not to flog a dead horse, but wow, such self-important arrogance coming from someone around this thread whose name begins with a "C". Heads so large on the outside are frequently shrunken on the inside. Tongue



Or threads are shrunken. I posted to this thread to wake Steve up and my posting was not in vain. He went and deleted his remarks about his electrolytic capacitor/resistive filter amps and I respect that. I am now going to go delete my quotations  of those remarks for future readers and more importantly, Steve.

I have also received emails from Eddie fans telling me to shut my mouth etc. Like somehow Eddie Vaughn came up with the concept of choke pi filters which Steve now uses in his amps, or Eddie came up with all poly supplies which Steve is now using in his amps, or Eddie came up with the idea of offering multiple coupling cap options which Steve now uses in his amps. Bottom line is ALL the glory goes to the LORD, Glory to God! Wake up and don't find yourself like King Herod. God has many ways to destroy someone who doesn't give God the glory. Maybe it is a cancer, maybe a freak accident, maybe a failed buisness, maybe a ...

"For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?"  I Corinthians 4:7

"And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them. And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man. And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost." Acts 12:21-23


Corey






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« Last Edit: 09/16/07 at 19:15:26 by Corey »  

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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #111 - 09/16/07 at 19:17:37
 
Corey wrote on 09/16/07 at 19:14:00:
Bottom line is ALL the glory goes to the LORD, Glory to God! Wake up and don't find yourself like King Herod. God has many ways to destroy someone who doesn't give God the glory. Maybe it is a cancer, maybe a freak accident, maybe a failed buisness, maybe a ...

"For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?"  I Corinthians 4:7

"And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them. And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man. And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost." Acts 12:21-23


Corey


YIKES!

Dave
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #112 - 09/16/07 at 20:04:21
 
Steve,  Do the these amps like low impedence speakers like the original Zens? How about the tubes, Sv83 or EL84  does the same thing apply?(SV83=more spank,EL84=mellower)  Thanks, Tish


Gee Corey, Do you really want those bad things to happen to people that don't believe in the things that you do?






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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #113 - 09/16/07 at 21:44:34
 
A small aperture centered below the lower back!
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #114 - 09/16/07 at 23:11:01
 
paulc wrote on 09/16/07 at 21:44:34:
A small aperture centered below the lower back!


Grin

Hilarious until one of those small aperatures centered below the lower back heads up a theocracy and starts requiring everyone to walk their walk. Smiley
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #115 - 09/17/07 at 01:44:33
 
Hi Tish,

(If I read Steve correctly) the new mono's ought to have more oomph with an 8 ohm single driver full range, yet still drive low impedances like the original se84's. It was said the trannies were the same.

This interests me tremendously as I'm still very hooked on my Parker 98's, but am enjoying some experimentation with an fe126 in a blh. The Select does a very good job with the little fe126 at moderate volumes, but becomes congested at more demanding levels (unlike with the Parkers where the Select can play insanely loud before congestion and clipping).

If I'm off center, perhaps someone can clean me up.

Karl
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #116 - 09/17/07 at 03:49:35
 
Karl: How big is your room? I ask, because my Select drives these 126's plenty loud in my room, (24x13 w/ vaulted ceiling). You can overdrive 'em alright, but I never listen that loud.
Steve's new amps are tres intriguing! Smiley
                                                                                                                   Don
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #117 - 09/17/07 at 04:44:51
 
Hi Don,

Hmm, well the listening area here is 12' wide with a 7 1/2' acoustic tile ceiling for a length of 18', but beyond that, the ceilings go up to over 8'. There is no wall crossing the length-wise direction, however, and the listening area is open to the rest of the house.

Yes, I CAN crank the 126's quite loud, but there are certain sorts of recordings that at a healthy volume have dynamic crests that can/will challenge the Select. It's usually classical recordings that have a great deal of overtone energy that press the dynamics. Close miked choral and piano with wide dynamic ranges come to mind, but also symphonic recordings.

Wondering where the limits lie with the fe126's, I cranked some favorite Henry Purcell choral music (the anthems), and at "genuine life-sized" volume there is noticeable compression at various high points that I wouldn't experience with my Parkers. It's quite a bit easier to find the headroom limits of the Select with the fe126 than with the Parker 98's. With the Parkers, your ears have to BLEED first.

Still, the Planet 10 modded fe126's are very surprising in the frugel blh with the plain ol' Select! The limits I've suggested would only occasionally be a drawback.

Karl

ps- my interest in the extra "drive" of the new monos for an 8 ohm full range is somewhat due to having an interest in experimenting somewhat with the fe166 (not sure what, but possibly something). No tengo proper corners for Steve's cornerhorn, so it would be different. Maybe a bib...





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« Last Edit: 09/17/07 at 04:50:50 by veryoldcat »  

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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #118 - 09/17/07 at 05:05:03
 
Hmm, the signature "Decware sound", with the added headroom.These new amps sound like a winner ! Smiley
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #119 - 09/17/07 at 12:35:25
 
Dirty_Dawg wrote on 09/14/07 at 05:19:43:
I don't think anyone is referring to infrasonics in reference to music, are they?

You should be safe from nausea at normal listening volumes, even if you are sensitive to higher bass frequencies.



I have been trying to figure out why this was happening... and I think I may have figured it out. It is not the sub-sonics. When I listen with my eyes closed my eyes rapidly dart back and forth as I "focus" on intruments and sounds in the music. For some reason music with the lowest bass seems to have more depth, front to back. After a few hours of listening, I think I am suffering from "self induced motion sickness". This happens more rapidly with bass heavy music because my eyes are literally focusing near and far even while closed. As I focus on closer instruments and then on drums or percussion... this really makes me sick. What a relief that I am not being exposed to the 'death frequency'.

I hate it when I'm a passenger in the car and not the driver!  ;D

buzz



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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #120 - 09/17/07 at 16:55:26
 
Somewhere up in the post it was mentioned that audio is not a contact sport.  

Anyone who has attended the hornfest knows that it can be.   My forehead still has a bit of bannana pulp shrapnel.  This was caused by a rather uninhibited controller of the volume.  The snap crackle and pop of a rather well worn in pressing of dreamboat annie was to be the catalyst in this horrific scene.  One deep groove too many and WHAM!! I still have the dent in my forehead, a reminder of just how brutal audio can be.   Grin
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Re: NEW DECWARE AMP at DECFEST2007
Reply #121 - 01/26/08 at 05:32:04
 
Bump!

Well; anyone one of you that invested in the new mono's is still welcome to post a few impressions.

Karl
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