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Custom MKII version: HDT Build Images (Read 52363 times)
RFZ_Quest
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Re: Custom MKII version: HDT Build Images
Reply #50 - 01/17/08 at 03:07:51
 

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RFZ_Quest
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Re: Custom MKII version: HDT Build Images
Reply #51 - 01/17/08 at 03:08:57
 

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RFZ_Quest
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Re: Custom MKII version: HDT Build Images
Reply #52 - 01/17/08 at 03:09:54
 

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RFZ_Quest
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Re: Custom MKII version: HDT Build Images
Reply #53 - 01/17/08 at 03:11:15
 

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RFZ_Quest
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Re: Custom MKII version: HDT Build Images
Reply #54 - 01/17/08 at 03:13:35
 

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RFZ_Quest
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Re: Custom MKII version: HDT Build Images
Reply #55 - 01/17/08 at 03:59:30
 
This brings the conclusion for yet another interesting build. I
exhausted a great deal of time and effort constructing these.

It was a type of 'design-on-the-fly' phase as I actually would
create what transpired as the set was actively going together.

This concept is not what I initially envisioned. I feel that it turned
out much more to my satisfaction than what my original plan
would have presented. These actually look much better in reality
than they do in these images. The images just do not do them
justice but the concept is conveyed at any rate.

So glad they are finished as now I get to enjoy the fruit of my
labor!


BTW: I have been listening to these for the last several hours
now. It is very safe to say that I have been floored by what I'm
hearing from an absolutely 'fresh' set of drivers!


These are sounding so good from the get go that it is going to be
very difficult to end the listening session tonight. This indicates that
once properly broken-in, these are going to be so good that they
hold a strong chance of permanently residing as the primary speakers.

I am really taken back right now by what I'm experiencing with these
speakers audio quality. This fresh  set of speakers already sounds better than
most speakers I've heard with a generous amount of break-in already
established.

I want to note that these speakers have allowed me to enjoy the
sound of SACD once again from the Decware  tube DAC unit.

These present a digital sound quality  much smoother and warmer than the single
driver full range model. Grace is present here in abundance for which digital
playback  is highly complimented without reserve.

What it comes down to is this, these are for you if digital is your primary
source. As good as they sound with digital, they are that much better with
vinyl! The single driver version is best served with analog only. With this
version, I can have my cake and eat it too! Simply wonderful!!

I am now completely mesmerized as the listening session is well within the
second vinyl LP and it sounds so incredibly good that I feel totally justified
by the time, expense, and effort that went into this special set of speakers.

Time to go now as I am being drawn back to the music with total acceptance.


The really great bonus is that I finally have a matching set of speakers that
blends in with the decor of my Teres turntable and custom platform.
Cool  





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« Last Edit: 02/01/08 at 05:45:11 by RFZ_Quest »  
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Doorman
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Re: Custom MKII version: HDT Build Images
Reply #56 - 01/17/08 at 04:08:17
 
Been following your build with interest. The execution is superb, no doubt the  sonics are at least their equal!
Keep us informed of your impressions. (I'm currently using a pair of diy "Frugel-Horns" w/ fe126's)
Your build has me thinking--- ( a somewhat rare occurence!)
Thanks, Don
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Decware SE34I w/ CCE mod, ZCD, Heybrook/Linn/Clearaudio, Hagerman,
Goertz/Wireworld/cat-5/MarkAudio Alpair 10.2 drivers
(eN) in DIY Mar-Ken cabs
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RFZ_Quest
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Re: Custom MKII version: HDT Build Images
Reply #57 - 01/22/08 at 01:47:27
 
Don,

I've really gone and done it now! Getting people inspired and into the thinking mode, whats next? Oh for the fear of the unknown, the damage is done! Shocked

Thanks for the acknowledgement. How do you like the Frugel Horns? They should sound very nice. I have not heard them personally, but I can imagine how they sound.

Post some notes about them sometime. A review with your system would be welcome.

Later
.
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RFZ_Quest
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Re: Custom MKII version: HDT Build Images
Reply #58 - 01/22/08 at 03:08:58
 
The new custom MK2 versions ( or should I dub them as MKIII's just to avoid confusion?) are well under way to breaking-in. I decided to run some analysis testing just to see how they compare to the single driver versions with the Alternate tuning.

The results at this early stage of progression are quite impressive, as the following results provide some very interesting performance figures. These show similar  performance ratings compared to the DFR-8  models as shown on the graphs.

The graphs do not tell the entire story for which only listening can identify with.

Listening tests reveal a distinct difference in signature between these models as can be expected. It is very apparent by listening just how much of a difference there actually is between the two.

There are good points to both versions with some being better on one model than the other. It is very difficult to tag either one as a clear winner as they are both unique in sound quality and most pleasant to hear. This truly comes down to a presentation of preferred taste.

I have to say that they are exceptionally good sounding speakers at this point. The higher frequency element is of a very special quality that clearly edges out the DFR-8 version in that regard.

Listening tests distinctively prove the difference at the higher end of the spectrum. It is very hard to surpass the sound presentation for which ribbons represent. They are the spectacular feature of this model which clearly sets them apart from the single driver version.
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« Last Edit: 02/01/08 at 05:51:45 by RFZ_Quest »  
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musgofasa
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Re: Custom MKII version: HDT Build Images
Reply #59 - 01/22/08 at 17:41:37
 
Beautiful Work RFZ.

I am not one for reading graphs to figure out what a speaker sounds like, but from trying to decipher this, would you say the custom version (MKIII?) is somewhat less aggressive sounding? From album to album represented, it looks like they both have significant strengths in the low and high ends, but appear pretty equal across the middle section of measured frequencies.

The bad thing is, here I sit only a few weeks away from starting my first official full range speaker build and you post this! I was 99% decided to build a set of BLH cabs for my FE126's and use my Silver Flutes for a sub. And then I see this. The HDT which is told to me to be one of the best (if not THE) sounding speakers of all time. And to top it all off you say it is digital friendly! (Something I never, ever thought you would say!)

So for a couple hundred bucks, I can use my current equipment, my current drivers, and all I need to order are the passives and I can build away. I feel like these speakers will work better with my room just from knowing the size and strength, but I fear I will have to delve into an amplifier sooner than later. Arghhhh

So it looks like I will be building an experiment first (Frugel horn?) and then sitting down to listen before I take the plunge and build these.

I see music in your tests that match my tastes. (Sade, Metallica, Dire Straits, Elton John, Sara Mclachlan etc) Now my head is spinning, lol.

Thanks for the posts! I can't wait to see your opinion after they are fully broken in and you have had the chance to A/B with the DFR8 version with your own favorite music. Taste matters most after all, lol.

Take care,
Robert
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RFZ_Quest
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Re: Custom MKII version: HDT Build Images
Reply #60 - 01/25/08 at 03:49:56
 
Sir Robert,

The world has a way of throwing you a curve ball when it is least expected. If you remain focused within your objective, the curve ball doesn’t catch you off guard to the same degree, always easier to manage with less surprise thru higher awareness.

You haven’t committed to any regrettable path as of yet. Your path is merely at the crossroads stage. You are ultimately faced with accepting the path that you choose with pure conviction. Take your decision and run with it just to see where it leads  down the chosen path. The end result may be highly rewarding beyond your wildest imagination, or  the culmination of your lowest expectations. Then there is always the rule of compromise where the reality of it all falls somewhere in the middle. Only you have the power to decide where this roller coaster ride of audio enchantment comes to a complete stop.

When it becomes time to disembark, the ‘Holy-Grail’ will be of utmost certainty.


Q: “would you say the custom version (MKIII?) is somewhat less aggressive sounding? From album to album represented, it looks like they both have significant strengths in the low and high ends, but appear pretty equal across the middle section of measured frequencies.”


A: I would say that the graphs suggest the obvious very strongly in correlation with what I hear between these two models. The Custom (MKIII) version consistently shows a somewhat  linear ‘tapering’ with greater finesse (softer decline) as it rolls off in the high frequency domain in most cases.

The thing that may confuse you here is that there is a definite refinement to the highest frequency elements which are consistently noticeable with the ribbon drivers.


There is never an edge or hint of harshness to the music, no matter what SPL is presented, even with good recorded digital as a source. This quality can best be identified to what is usually referred to as the ‘air’ factor (ambience) for which delicate, extremely complex layers of detail just seem to float in space with clear and precise presence.


The last time that I heard a speaker present this degree of presence above 16kHz was from my set of giant planar speakers housing massive full range ribbon elements. There is just nothing that can beat the presence of well executed ribbon designs (except for maybe electrostatic designs).

The major drawback to these design concepts usually falls in line with low efficiency ratings. The amplification factor becomes the Achilles heel as a result.

Here I have a highly efficient speaker with just the right amount of flavor added to the mix via the high frequency elements. I am sure that the influence of the German M-caps (Silver-Supremes) had something to do with this level of presentation. I am also quite certain that my custom housings contributed to the resulting sound sculpting through positive isolation measures at key points. There are no less than four stages of de-coupling from the main cabinet for which transferred resonance is highly restricted from it’s influential manipulation to color the sound of the ribbon elements. The higher degree of stability initialized into the supporting structure for the delicate ribbons results into a much cleaner presentation of well focused projection .

If you were to place your television upon a vibrating platform as an experiment by example, you would experience complete chaos within the stability of it’s presentation. Once stabilized, the picture returns to clear focus. Think about what induced vibration at even seemingly low levels contribute toward the disruption of proper sound pattern alignment within the plane of focus.  

We know that quantum levels of induced aberrations are present within electronic circuits from which external vibrations are resulting in fluctuations to the integrity of those circuits. The compounding of these elements will expand on a level for which eventually becomes audible within the human hearing range.

The supporting evidence for this is strongly reinforced by the widespread popularity of isolation pucks & cones plus the use of mass within supporting structures to counter the effects of this phenomena. Again, resonance is the key factor  which comes into play.

By design, ribbons radiate sound concentration into a narrow beam which primarily bears a vertical dispersion pattern in order to reduce anomalies associated from surrounding room boundary interaction across the horizontal plane.

The ceiling and floor become the primary interaction points for which place the greatest degree of influence upon the ribbons projected path. For this is why a certain degree of geometric alteration must be instilled within the plane of dispersion through critical time alignment.

The rules change significantly within the design principals of ribbons over that of ordinary high frequency transducers.


.................continued.............
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RFZ_Quest
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Re: Custom MKII version: HDT Build Images
Reply #61 - 01/25/08 at 04:11:06
 
The mid range frequencies seem to have a more consistent degree of ‘flatness’ throughout the most critical part of the spectrum as well, which also tends to suggest a smoother presentation with very good timbre characteristics void of the “hole-in-the-middle-effect” which can be a problem with multi-driver systems.

The presentation here is absolutely seamless with just about as much preservation as the single full-range driver. The midrange to higher frequency range transition is as smooth as silk with unparalleled  clarity and detail! The factor of speed is a major strongpoint here.

So yes, I would conclude that the MKIII version is less aggressive across the entire spectrum which would suggest why these are more compatible with digital sources.

This in no way implies that the speaker falls short in dynamics or that it lacks anything to be desired in presentation. The fact is that fundamental elements have just been tamed down enough to allow greater synergy with the digital or ‘less-than-ideal’ source material.

Q: “you say it is digital friendly! (Something I never, ever thought you would say!)”


A: I ‘used’ to enjoy digital (providing high quality DAC units were in operation) when the original (cylinder shape) RL-2’s were in use. Those speakers  presented a very respectable sound quality by means of a digital source. They also were superb at analog playback.

Those were a type of ‘get-along-with-anything’ speaker which just seemed to sound good no matter what. The HDT’s are serious designs at the top end of the spectrum for which the rubber hits the road at full impact of force! At this level, compatibility becomes ultra selective for which any small detriment will be disclosed like a blood stain on a white dress shirt.

At this stage, it is of extreme importance that ALL equipment within the link is of ultra-high quality or these speakers will spit the garbage right back out on you in defiance.

A less revealing speaker with a ‘lesser’ degree of aggressive stance will not be as likely to have such an ill-response  in this regard. The extension of the speaker which is the rooms  acoustical factor itself, always remains pivotal in the role of interaction for which the double edge sword effect presents it’s mark on a whole new level.


It doesn’t end with the equipment. The equipment only got you as far as the battlefield, ‘locked-and-loaded’ for action. The surrounding elements will present the REAL battle conditions to overcome in order to prevail in the end.

Warning: “Garbage-in-garbage-out“! These speakers will always reveal the quality factor which is fed into them. The resulting sound quality(output) is of equal proportion to the input of the signal. It is as simple as that. (Just about seems logical as ‘IF’ it was based upon the laws of Physics)  Imagine that.


..........continued.........
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« Last Edit: 02/01/08 at 05:59:32 by RFZ_Quest »  
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RFZ_Quest
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Re: Custom MKII version: HDT Build Images
Reply #62 - 01/25/08 at 04:33:10
 
What I have discovered with the modified MK2 *III versions (at least my set anyway), is that DSD mastered SACD has a great deal of inherent qualities which just seem to be in proper compliance with these speakers, for which these sound qualities are flushed out and exposed.  The typical unpleasant harshness which is a common trait with digital, has not been a factor here at all. The  dance is of harmonious nature for which ‘stepping on the toes’ is non existent in form.

In fact, this presentation of digital is by far, the most agreeable in form for which I’ve experienced to date. Something is very mystifying here for which the proof is definitely in the pudding! With my sensitive hearing, if I do not find this offensive, I sure wouldn’t expect anyone else to either.

There is a noticeable increase in textural presence with far greater depth ( A solid interlocking of information with greater unity if you will). This is the level of refinement which separates the qualities between digital and analog to a large degree for which analog presents a genuine richness within the music’s foundation.  

It’s like that special recipe which always takes the blue ribbon due to it’s perfect combination of agreeable ingredients in the mix.




The Silver Flute driver is known for it’s gentle attributes, so this is of no surprise in all actuality. These drivers are very smooth in presentation for which consistency would prove to be a major part of it’s influence. The extension of this driver is rather remarkable considering it’s design.

The full range driver (DFR-8)  can be compared to the untainted bloodline of the finicky,  ‘high-strung’ pedigree, while the MK2 version is more gentle in acceptance like the ‘mutt’ that never barks  when a stranger approaches.  

It is just too good of a driver to be limited within the confines of a subwoofer enclosure, as it‘s real qualities would never be revealed for it‘s true worth.


I am quite certain that the implementation of external lower frequency augmentation would fail to yield  the linear response which can be extracted from the HDT designs in a ‘stand-alone’ configuration once the proper conditions prevail.

The Silver-Flute drivers  produce excellent results within the HDT design as a stand alone concept. As you can see by my results, there is no possible logic to justify the need for extended lower frequency augmentation.

How many subwoofers will extend below the performance as shown while maintaining a level of complex frequency balance in terms of speed to match the speaker? The odds of finding an appropriate subwoofer for which to synchronize with the HDT’s properties is highly improbable at best. The need for such a thing would be completely incomprehensible!

If the HDT ‘s do not provide adequate low frequency response within the room in a stand-alone configuration, I can assure you that the addition of a subwoofer will produce inadequate  results along the same lines, as acoustical factors are creating barriers for which to cancel out peak performance potential.

Fix the room, dial-in the speaker adjustment, and the problem is solved. You will find that the speakers produce adequate levels of bass that just may go beyond your wildest expectations.


The key issue is that of compatibility for which precise matching is crucial for proper synergy to unfold. That is just not going to happen with the addition of a subwoofer!

There are no indications in response which would even remotely suggest the need for it. I would strongly advise against any form of additional augmentation. If accuracy of tonal balance holds any semblance of importance to you, than this should immediately be dismissed  as any sort of viable option.

The best option for gain is thru variable tuning of the speakers chamber ports plus the actual relation to  surrounding room elements for which to reinforce the lower frequencies as an advanced degree of fine tuning.

There is a great deal of versatility built-in to this design concept for which you can dial-in the degree of performance ratios that suit your taste to form. You can clearly see what the audible effects of change are to the HDT design in general just by the choice of drivers and degree of chamber porting used within it’s design, in combination with the degree of acoustical  reinforcement measures instilled within the structures for controlled stability.

Once the ideal placement is located within the room’s modal zones for maximum interaction, you will discover just how low these speakers actually will extend and to the extent of it’s presence. Standing waves will always be your enemy. Control this problem and you will unlock  a critical stage for which to obtain quality sound.


.........continued...........
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Re: Custom MKII version: HDT Build Images
Reply #63 - 01/25/08 at 04:47:19
 
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musgofasa
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Re: Custom MKII version: HDT Build Images
Reply #64 - 01/25/08 at 18:10:26
 
That's a lot of info to digest RFZ,

I was sufficiently impressed with the silver flute speakers to order a pair. Since I received them, I have not yet had the opportunity to even listen to them yet. THis build is one that I am confident I can make look very good. I have several ideas, but after reading your review, I am pretty sure I will be superbly happy with the sound from these cabs.
I spoke with the other half about what amp I might be able to set up for this. I will definitely be running digital front end for now. I may be able to opt for the decware cd player sometime this year, but I don't want to plan on it yet. The room I have is fairly well set up for sound, but wil need a few adjustments. I think I will be able to work with those after the speakers are in so I can see what and where is needed.

I find it very interesting that these two speakers with such different drivers can survive a direct comparison. I am fairly familiar with the sound of the DFR-8, but from what I have heard of the silver flute/ ribbon combo, I think I will like it better. The idea of having speakers that I know are right and being able to focus on the synergy and the rest of the equipmnent is very high on the list of "good decisions".

When you posted a review of the original full range HDT speakers, you said that those speakers would not be beaten. You have now constructed this set and while it doesn't sound like they are superior, it does sound that they are very close and even comparible. I find that encouraging.

Thanks for the great review!

Take care,
Robert
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serenechaos
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Re: Custom MKII version: HDT Build Images
Reply #65 - 01/26/08 at 14:28:40
 
That's a lot of info.  

Have you measured them with an input with an even frequency resonse, rather than music?

Or in a different room, or outdoors; so you're measuring the speaker, not the room.  

It looks like you have some content & mode problems that could be intrepreted as cabinet problems.  
And or are being fooled by room gain (or want to measure it that way, because you want to listen to those speakers in that room).  
It just doesn't translate.  
Ya know, logic; specific to general is invalad.  
Robert Smiley
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Re: Custom MKII version: HDT Build Images
Reply #66 - 09/13/08 at 20:15:54
 
Hi RFZ_Quest

Over the top work, buddy!  May I ask what crossover point  you selected for the ribbons?

Dorwin
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Re: Custom MKII version: HDT Build Images
Reply #67 - 02/23/10 at 18:49:32
 
RFZ wrote:

"These present a digital sound quality  much smoother and warmer than the single
driver full range model. Grace is present here in abundance for which digital
playback  is highly complimented without reserve."



Glad to read this. I owned the HDT and have decided to go with the II's this time.

Lon is using great value resistors on his Radial tweeters and these speakers also give me that option.

Running a $40 cd player into a $35 digital amp limits the audiophile realm of things.
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Re: Custom MKII version: HDT Build Images
Reply #68 - 02/28/10 at 17:52:28
 
What cap is on the tweeter?

Value?
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