Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Decware Audio Forums
09/02/14 at 08:12:01


Pages: 1 2 3 4 
Send Topic Print
HDT_DFR-8_Alternate Tuning Images (Read 26165 times)
4krow
Seasoned Member
****


IMAGINE WHIRLLED
PEAS

Posts: 466
Re: HDT_DFR-8_Alternate Tuning Images
Reply #45 - 01/01/08 at 06:39:55
 
and the quest continues....but alas, i have so far been adequately convinced, that indeed, these speakers ARE capable of more than decent bass. the experiment was easy enough, since i have a threshold t50 amp. that is being used at present for a sub amp. so, out came the sv83s amps, and in went the solid state contender. yikes! what sibilence, but that is not what we are confirming here, so just grit your teeth, and listen to bass lines(where is that prozac bottle?). i will say that it also seems to enhance the midrange. now i know that i am on the right track, the sv83s mono's may be up for sale, and i will seek a se34I.2 or something similiar. again thanks for the info.
also, i have begun to go for the alternative tuning, in as much as i have extended the port tubes, and have added most of the foam. before i comment on that, it appears that, yes indeed it would be much easier to just start another pair of cabinets(the right way), or even consider buying the hdt cabs for sale on this site. either way, i have a much better bearing on the future path to 'the new sound' in my life. equally as mind bending to me is that as the drivers break in, there are changing variables entered, despite the fact that they are good,mostly, in nature.
 all in all, i must remind myself that at best, my source(tubed output cd22 cayin cdp) is to blame for some of these impressions...
in twenty minutes, it will be a new year, and who knows, i may wake from a 50 year dream(as an alien), and none of this will matter,  he he.........regards,  greg
Back to top
 
 

Decware 34I.3 integrated amp/Forte' 3 bass amp/Velodyne SMS-1 bass mngmnt system/Decware ZOB speakers/BESL subs/Emotiva ERC3 CD player/BPT 3.0 power cond. PS Audio P500
  IP Logged
Yoda
Senior Member
***


I ride!

Posts: 64
Re: HDT_DFR-8_Alternate Tuning Images
Reply #46 - 01/01/08 at 21:57:05
 
RFZ, thanks for your  thoughts.  I'll post some sketches on the assembly as I develop them later on.  My theory about keeping the mdf core is that it is part of the dampening process, key for absorbing the higher back frequencies of the Fostex based driver, in concert with the foam lining for the Alternate Tuning.  The plyboo on the outside is very dense and rigid, and I think will keep the panels from deflecting or resonating, and a material in between them will keep the plyboo from making the cabinet too 'live'.  If I was building a set of Mk II's from scratch, I would want a more 'live' cabinet made from plywood, since its 8" drivers are so different in quality and range.  Unlike the Alternate tuning, there is almost no foam or anti-reflective coatings in the Mk II according to my conversations w/ Zygi.  Just a little bit  shoved in above the driver, if any at all.

Matt
Back to top
 
 

Decware HDT-Alt tuning, Hagtech Cymbals
Hagerman: Chime Gold DAC; Castanet Line Stage; Cornet II, Piccolo, Thorens TD160 w/ Rega Rb300; Oracle Alexandria II TT, Mayware F4 arm w/Soundsmith-Denon dl-103, Yamaha T-1 Tuner
Many fostex experiments....
  IP Logged
serenechaos
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 199
Re: HDT_DFR-8_Alternate Tuning Images
Reply #47 - 01/06/08 at 19:25:43
 
RFZ_Quest wrote on 12/29/07 at 19:28:03:
 The depth of detail, the speed of  transient response, and the resulting pace and rhythm produced from these modified HDT’s as shown , easily sets a new standard which clearly surpasses the leading T-line designs.

It is a matter of certain elements for which this particular HDT build excels from one aspect over another…  

What is different about these HDTs than everyone elses?  

RFZ_Quest wrote on 12/29/07 at 19:28:03:
  … I would be hard pressed to believe that any speaker with the volume displacement of the HDT structure could even come close to the complete presentation which these so effortlessly convey with absolute authority. That presentation hinges upon a seamless and utterly transparent focus which spans ideally from 20 Hz to 20 kHz in a stand-alone configuration with an ideally flat frequency correlation across the entire spectrum…  
…The speaker must present a completely coherent and natural degree of embodiment which flows seamlessly across the entire spectrum without a hint of departure. I expect to hear sound with realistic dimensional cues as I would in real time within my natural environment…


Yes, that would be nice.  
You got me interested again, if mine did thatI would start using them for something besides stands for other equiptment.  
RFZ_Quest wrote on 12/29/07 at 19:28:03:
 …In order for this level of coherency to unravel  within these perceived coordinates, it is only fair to insure that the rooms acoustical value is of prime setting. No speaker in the world is going to reveal it’s true worth if not presented in an ideal environment for which it becomes possible to disclose that worth to the maximum degree….

I have found generally as the rule, a design based upon a single full-range driver placed within a well designed T-line structure or that of a folded horn technique with the proper degree of coupling, free from any form of crossover network, is the basis for ideal and optimal results.  

I am so sure of this, that this is the only direction for which I will focus my future design concepts.  

The magic lies within the cabinet design itself for which the driver simply becomes the focal point for that magic to work it‘s wonder. The surrounding room elements are responsible for the complete transformation in which the speaker is portrayed within those elements. To have the ultimate sounding speaker is an impossibility without the reinforced structure for which to present the very basis for ultimate sound reproduction…    

Yes, I found room treatment to make a bigger difference than speakers, amps, or any other item (as it should, it's a lot more work & time  :) )  Hopefully the Teres will be the next big step up from the Dual/Rek-O-Kut.  
But back to speakers, and making HDTs usable.  
RFZ_Quest wrote on 12/29/07 at 19:28:03:
I believe that you will be stunned by the performance of the DFR-8 in the HDT design once upgraded as shown in my build. Of course results will vary significantly when critical factors such as room dimensions, speaker arrangement, equipment used (especially amplification and source factors), and acoustical conditions are considered for overall influence of the speakers true potential.  

Exactly what are you referring to as "the HDT design once upgraded as shown in my build."  
Is that the longer tubes & different foam inside & different passives of the alternate tuning you're talking about, or is your upgraded build something else?  
How much longer are the tubes?  
Did I mess up by building mine out of Russian Baltic Birch instead of MDF maybe?  
And mine have been gathering dust since building the corner horns.  
Like Steve said (about the corner horns): “After 11 years they are still my favorite speakers and promise to hold that position for some time to come.”  
If you've got info that makes the HDTs come close, please share it...
Robert  :)  
Back to top
 
 

Dual turntable, modified Toshiba cd player
CSP pre, SE84CS-EX SET, Urei and 6C45 Spud amps
ML TLs, HDTs, OBs, Nagaoka Swans,Corner horns, subs
Dedicated room undergoing treatment
  IP Logged
RFZ_Quest
Seasoned Member
****


The key to a perfect
resonating chamber.

Posts: 296
Re: HDT_DFR-8_Alternate Tuning Images
Reply #48 - 01/19/08 at 03:03:51
 
Robert,

I am going to attempt placing this into a new perspective for which may or may not narrow the gap between what is conveyed within.

Quote:
What is different about these HDTs than everyone else’s?


What we really have to ask ourselves is this; why am I producing the sound quality that is on par with the designer’s  results as opposed to feedback from the general masses  indicating radical departure toward the opposite conclusion? There has to be something to all of this that would suggest a cornerstone  leading to either a parable of sorts, or accuracy of  technique to the contrary.

I have adequately covered the reasons in lucid detail a number of times within the literature written. It is clear that I was not far off from center at all! I am not about to reiterate the scope of  these facts as it is already held fast in written form. Please re-read my notes carefully, as there are many key points covered as to why general results are so randomly ill-perceived.

Speakers of this caliber are ONLY for use within rooms that have undergone thorough acoustical modification, conforming to ideal properties as one key factor.  Remember that  surrounding elements play a vital role as to the actual outcome derived from the speakers themselves.

I believe that your experiences with this have adequately solidified the importance of this issue within your thought process. You have indeed covered this aspect with good measure to the point where it should no longer be a detrimental factor.

Precision placement with utmost accuracy is pivotal for these speakers within the room’s modal zones, for which to respond favorably. I can  degrade the performance element of these speakers significantly, just by offsetting a few degrees from premium placement.

If one keeps the interaction of key elements within check throughout the entire set-up procedure, positive results are predictably assured in the end. I spent several hours focusing on this placement using repetitive procedures through trial and error, which finally divulged the proper degree of placement within the room’s coordinates, and my listening position. This procedure is tedious but necessary if you want to attain maximum performance.


Without going through the motions, the odds of extracting quality performance from these models (or any other speaker) are not in you favor. It will take effort on your part to extract the performance hidden within. Once you have discovered the benefits of this process, you will most assuredly concur with my findings.

I strongly suggest  following my set-up procedures to the utmost detail so that at least we have a proper foundation established as a baseline representation. (The link is posted above, found in the room acoustics forum.) Getting the rooms acoustical value within proper perspective will prove to be the missing link. Together, these factors will reinforce the speakers performance in complementary fashion for which the truth will be ultimately revealed with total adornment.

I understand and appreciate the efforts which you have taken to transform your room within these ideal parameters. I also will be first to give high praise for the quality of your electrical power source. This establishes that your room is of great potential for which should be quite satisfactory for optimal results. The only thing left to consider is component matching and speaker geometry in relation with the rooms interactive properties.

The source itself remains as the most critical element for which the impending results will be a core derivative. The amplification factor comes in as a strong second with just as much relevance to the perceived outcome. I  have surmised that it is best to categorize these ultra revealing speakers as  ‘analog-dependent’  for which to extract the true potential to be gained from this speaker design.

The DFR-8 based HDT with alternate tuning will absolutely flush out the best of the best or the worst of the worst within the system. As I have stated, there is no forgiveness on this level. This is the line in the sand where crossing it leads to either positive revelation in audio quality, or contrarily, the devastation of  perceived sound.

If the source is not within compliance, all other aspects of the system will be rendered irrelevant. A digital source (or any source in general) will  reveal  all it’s faults to the maximum degree with these speakers. Couple that with the influence of mediocre solid state amplification, and the end result is something that I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy. The same applies for mediocre analog, although the degree of degradation is likely to be greater with digital anomalies exposed.

.........continued............
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
RFZ_Quest
Seasoned Member
****


The key to a perfect
resonating chamber.

Posts: 296
Re: HDT_DFR-8_Alternate Tuning Images
Reply #49 - 01/19/08 at 03:21:02
 
It is of high probability that the outcome will generally be less than satisfactory. The best of digital source units will be of higher acceptance toward compatibility. However, mutual compliance with these speakers will always be superior with a premium analog source. The level of outcome will always be relative to the level of input.

The other key element resides within the accuracy of matching parameters within the equipment in use with the speakers. As I have made clear, these models are too revealing and unforgiving for any condition less than optimal, as any abnormalities will definitely stand out with these speakers or any other design for that matter which conforms to this pinnacle of quality.

Going back and reviewing my process, can you be certain that anyone else has duplicated my set exactly as shown in my process? I emphasized very strongly the importance of the seemingly small details that most people tend to overlook or disregard as non-essential to the outcome. That difference in detail is what sets apart any design standard from mediocre to within reach of the highest echelon of  quality.

To sum this up in undeniable conclusion, I do not have a problem with the results in my system/room configuration, nor does the designer in his. There is a reason for this outcome. We have  conformed to the critical parameters which are essential for premium results. It is as simple as that!  

Do you suppose it is merely coincidence that my system  in correlation with the room’s  acoustical factors are virtually in sync with the basis for which the designer himself has within his boundaries?  

The same equipment with very similar room properties  would strongly suggest as to why perhaps our  understanding of these speakers runs analogous in form. In other words, we have assured an absolutely solid foundation for favorable results. It doesn’t become any clearer than that with any further extension of relevancy.

Quote:
“if mine did that I would start using them for something besides stands for other equipment. “


Precisely my point! It is up to you for which to identify and eradicate the real underlying reason for which this statement is predicated upon.

Quote:
“ Hopefully the Teres will be the next big step up from the Dual/Rek-O-Kut.”


If you feel that there is a difference between a Mercedes and a Chevy, then this metaphorical example should present the general idea as to how much of a ‘step-up’ the Teres concept actually is.

Quote:
But back to speakers, and making HDTs usable.


It is not a question as to whether or not the HDT’s are “usable”. Unless the integrity of the structural quality was breached, or something is amiss within the design implementation (non compliant within specification), the problem most assuredly stems from somewhere else.

Quote:
Exactly what are you referring to as "the HDT design once upgraded as shown in my build."


‘Exactly what I am referring to’ is a degree of separation to preclude any doubt that absolute attention to detail with the highest preservation of quality, was instilled and solidified in accordance with  my requirements. The general procedure is very close to the standard upgrade. My version of the upgrade contributed a few supplemental aspects which I feel are substantial enough to make a difference, as those ‘small’ details unify to sculpt the overall sound of the structure.

Do not try to read between the lines here, as this is not meant to imply anything other than the fact that I can guarantee the quality of this particular build throughout the process, with the proper degree of modifications intact for maximum performance. My technical performance data clearly proves the  credibility within.

The results that I experience from this set of speakers would suggest that I am on the right track with my procedure. I will not argue the extent of difference induced. Rather, I will leave the fact where it remains, that these have proven to be the most refined, and accurate set of speakers across the musical spectrum that I’ve evaluated to this point. They are reference grade and a rarity of musical purity as far as I am concerned about them.

Quote:
Is that the longer tubes & different foam inside & different passives of the alternate tuning you're talking about, or is your upgraded build something else?
How much longer are the tubes?


My execution for foam requirements was somewhat different in both grade and placement. The tube length is per  specification. However, I dampened the tubes to the point where their resonance factor was modified. I suspect that this if anything would lead to the most noticeable change in characteristics. The addition of structural chamber bracing is highly influential to the cabinets resonance factor. You may have noticed the dampening factor applied by use of the sound deadening application throughout the internal structure. I do not believe that anyone else has applied this tactic to these speakers, at least not to my knowledge. Again, this changes the resonant factor within the structure itself. Whenever this is done, there is ultimately going to be a change in sound presentation, affecting definition and tonal balance to some degree.


........continued..........
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
RFZ_Quest
Seasoned Member
****


The key to a perfect
resonating chamber.

Posts: 296
Re: HDT_DFR-8_Alternate Tuning Images
Reply #50 - 01/19/08 at 03:24:12
 
Quote:
“Did I mess up by building mine out of Russian Baltic Birch instead of MDF maybe? “


Absolutely not. If anything, the Baltic Birch should have enhanced the tonal structure of the cabinets. This allows for a livelier sound than the MDF alternative as used in stock models. Again, the structural resonant factor is of a different nature between these materials.

Quote:
“If you've got info that makes the HDTs come close, please share it...”


I already did as shown so descriptively above.

Thank you for your input. I hope that this has clarified any misunderstanding of my intention that may have eluded you or anyone else on this matter.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
serenechaos
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 199
Re: HDT_DFR-8_Alternate Tuning Images
Reply #51 - 01/19/08 at 04:14:29
 
Same question.  
--specifically--
-- What did you do different--
I used Russian Baltic Birch.  
I used automotive undercoating to damp the insides, and the tubes.  
I used the foam as in the kits.  

Were these mistakes?  

What did you use to damp the cabinet walls?  
What did you use to damp the tubes?  
Did you use something different for foam?  

What did I do wrong?  
I built the corner horns and pretty much quit listening to the HDTs...  

I have spent many hours on room treatment; started with a clone of Steve's listening room, and went from there.  
(Including measuring it, and changing diffusion/absorbsion/traps until it came into line).  
I've been through quite a few amps, started with a Zen select (and yes, a PP with more watts is a lot more dynamic).  
Nothing is wrong with the Rek-0-Kut, just like nothing is wrong with a belt drive Teres, but a rim drive Teres is much better, and a direct drive is different again.  
Listening to them all back-to-back @ RMAF for a while convinced me.  

How is that going to change my speakers?  
Robert  :)  
Back to top
 
 

Dual turntable, modified Toshiba cd player
CSP pre, SE84CS-EX SET, Urei and 6C45 Spud amps
ML TLs, HDTs, OBs, Nagaoka Swans,Corner horns, subs
Dedicated room undergoing treatment
  IP Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 4 
Send Topic Print