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Two Halves (Read 30443 times)
wayan
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Two Halves
08/06/07 at 10:12:36
 
Hello all,

so here goes my first post~

so far the WO is my top pick for my experimental first sub woofer. after reading almost the complete WO forum i get the impression that this is a very successful design. however I'm really curious to know if anyone has ever tried making half of a wicked one...

my reason for this is because the space in my room is rather limited, and i was thinking of making two halves, and placing each under my current speakers.

however since this is only my first week that I've been hunting the net for sub designs, and never actually owned one (sept the 2.1 computer speakers Grin ) let alone built one, id say I'm quite a nubee to this.

workshop wise and wood working skills wont be an issue, since i work for a furniture company, and have the workshop at my disposal, plus the workers.  ;)

so, if anyone has tried, or has enough experience to say that building two halves of the WO is a bad idea, please let me know, and ill stick to the original design, and eventually build two of them or something.


thats the rendered image of the 36 x 24 box. I'm thinking of placing it between my TV console and the TV itself, so it just props it up a bit. however I'm a bit skeptical about how well my TV will handle the vibrations...

i might have to just put it in the corner of the room, unless someone suggests me to try out the split module idea. here is another render of what i have in mind:



any feed back will be greatly appreciated!
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« Last Edit: 08/07/07 at 04:44:26 by wayan »  
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buzz
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #1 - 08/06/07 at 13:05:15
 
You have changed the size of the horn mouth with your split design. It will not play down to the original WO lower frequencies.

Welcome to the forum! And thanks for your nice illustrations.

buzz
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« Last Edit: 08/06/07 at 13:07:48 by buzz »  
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Gexter
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #2 - 08/07/07 at 02:40:00
 
I am not as scientific as everybody else but I have done some messing around with the design.
If you have depth you could try extending the horn mouth so the mouth is the full width of the half the WO front. This could help increase the output, I have my doubts it will lower the freq but  it may a little. The port that vents the compression chamber is in a large part responsible for the Freq IMHO. I have messed with this aspect in the WO and it kills the output but seems to help lower the freq and flatten it out with less peaks but less over all range. I think Steve hit a real balance that is a ideal starting point and it has some minor flexibility. If you go to far your not going to have much luck with the balance of SQ,SPL and output that Steve has already put time into.

To be honest there has been a great deal of talk of splitting the WO but I have not heard back to see how well it has worked. I think I can recall one person that felt it worked out for him. I think if he heard a full one he may change his mind.
The whole benefit of the WO is in the shared horn/Flare, without that is not a WO at all.
Just build a ported box but a 1/2 WO would have a cool factor.

kudos as well on the illustrations

Gex
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wayan
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #3 - 08/07/07 at 04:42:35
 
Ok, so ill stick to the original design, i don't want to waste time and money building something that has not been really tested before. in the long run ill probably end up building two of these baby's.

so~ first step accomplished, chose my design.

this morning i went and bought the drivers, 2x 10" umm... probably a local made sub, but it wasn't the cheapest in the shop, so i hope that it does not disappoint me. paid Rp. 250.000 for each them (thats US$ 27 each) nothing too crazy, and if everything fails (i hope not) i haven't spent a fortune on it. here are some images of the drivers;






the box didn't have any specs, but from what I've understood, the WO works with prity much any sub driver out there.

i also tried to find an appropriate amp as well this morning. i went to about 5 different electronic/music shops here and was not able to find any panel amps eg;


which is a pity, cos that would be the easiest solution... instead i think i have to build my own amp... (good thing we have an electrician here, who will be helping me a lot i think lol)

so what I've found are some mono, or stereo amps, the best one I've seen (quality wise) seems to be a 2x 400W amp. its prity much just the circuit board, one page instruction manual, and the heat sink... from there ill need to buy or build a suitable power supply,  24v(for the amp) + 12v (for the safety circuit) @ 5amp? he he... totally new to this. anyone have any advice regarding appropriate power supplies? I'm almost tempted to just buy a car amp from the car mod shop at this point. however the price will be a lot higher i would imagine, and how to power that? just a 12V something amp converter?

then there is also another little gizmo that they had that adjusts the volume and frequency. however i was told that i don't need that since ill be running the signal from my Yamaha amp that has a SUB-Woofer out plug (mono), and it should be set to the right frequency for sub usage. ill have to read that up in my amp manual exactly what the parameters are of that sub outlet.

just ordered two panels of MDF 18 mm (we don't use inches here  ;D) but thats about equivalent to 3/4" when i get it this afternoon, or tomorrow ill start cutting them down to size, if i remember i might take some pictures.

I'm thinking of using both Lamello, and screws to fasten the main structure, and then just screw the top on so its possible to remove it on a later date. by the way, what is recommended to use as sealant when placing the top on (so its possible to remove later)? i have my doubts that it will be such a perfect fit as to be air tight...


"lamello joint"

thanks about the info Gex n Buzz, and hope to hear some more from everyone  ::)

cheers!
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« Last Edit: 08/07/07 at 05:37:11 by wayan »  
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Adrian
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #4 - 08/07/07 at 06:40:58
 
Lamello looks nice, but if you're using screws, i really can't see the point. try to get your hands on some adhesive.
as far as sealing the edges, i like to use sawdust mixed with glue.
you don't need to use a plate amp. any amp will do.
as long as you know what you are doing, DIY amps are a good choice.
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Too much bass never hurts, or does it ?
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wayan
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #5 - 08/07/07 at 07:22:58
 
So lamello is out then, was just thinking of extra durability/sturdiness... ill see, if we got enough biscuits lying about i might use some, otherwise just stick to screws.

i heard that wood glue doesn't stick so well too MDF, is that correct? should i maybe go all out extreme and use epoxy? he he...

i just got the price for a sheet of 3/4" MDF, 20 bucks  :( i thought everything should be cheaper here, a friend of mine told me he can get a sheet for 15$ over in the states... bah.

so now I'm waiting to find out f i can get plywood or MDF for a cheaper price than here from the neighboring island  ;)

regarding the sealant, I'm wondering what to use to seal the top on, since from what i've understood, this should not be glued and just screwed on, so its possible to open up later on for repairs/upgrades.

to keep the price down i think i will have to stick to a DIY amp, make another little box for it as well, and sit it on the floor somewhere.

if i get a Mono amp, do i just splice the output and plug em into each sub? how about a Stereo Amp? since my sub out is Mono i guess i just splice the output of my Yamaha amp, into my new amp (well "to be built amp"), then run a cable to each woofer from the amp. correct?

thanks  :D
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wayan
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #6 - 08/07/07 at 08:27:19
 
Ok, so a sheet of Particle Board costs like half the price of MDF, i've ordered two sheets which should arrive tomorrow. I've been told its a good material for speaker boxes, just easer to break if they are dropped or built badly~

is that true?

here is my HT setup (not much, but slowly growing):


Yamaha, RX-V340
specs are:
  • High power 5-channel discrete amplifier configuration (80W x 5 Max)

  • Dolby Digital Matrix 6.1 and DTS Marix 6.1 compatibility plus Dolby Pro Logic II decoding

  • Powerful 32-bit Yamaha LSI (YSS-938) for CINEMA DSP processing

  • 21 surround programs (41 variations) with SILENT CINEMA and Night Listening mode

  • 96kHz/24-bit D/A conversion

  • Speaker A/B selection

  • 5-band center graphic equalizer



not sure what the specs for these are, cant remember. however they sound quite good with the above amp.

i then plan to eventually get a center + two surround speaker after i build the WO.
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« Last Edit: 08/07/07 at 09:08:03 by wayan »  
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Bart_West-VL.
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #7 - 08/07/07 at 10:42:29
 
Hey Wayan,

MDF is very good for glueing, don't worrie about it!
You could just glue the whole box without screw, it would be a challenge to line the corners up and press everything well together, but the glue is realy strong and more then sufficient.
You do have to give it some time to dry of course.

To seal a side that has to be removable use weatherstriping, works very well.
When the lid is screwed on, it's almost invisible because it's pressed flat.
Or just put it upside down on a carpet, seems to play at its best this way
you need a flat floor, no bumpy tiles etc.

I made a few Velleman amps before, have a look at there website, nice stuff, not the cheapest though.

If you like to use a stereo amp:
Take the mono/sub out of your Yamaha.
Go to the input of the stereo amp with a splitter and feed left and right the same signal.
Then use one output side for one driver in your WO and the other channel for the other woofer.

happy building! Smiley

Bart

Particle board is weaker, maybe you should use those biscuits now, but that's more work and glue.
If you don't plan on dropping them from the stairs, it should be ok.  ;D

edit: be sure to predrill holes for screw, specialy with paricle board.
If you use a lid, you should use those metal threaded pieces instead of just screwing directly in the wood.

Velleman dealer in India:
(maybe that's the nearest, so not a good solution for you?)
VPL Infotech & Consultants
301 Savitri Sadan II 15 Comm Centre Preet Vihar
110092, DELHI
INDIA
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« Last Edit: 08/07/07 at 11:16:41 by Bart_West-VL. »  
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wayan
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #8 - 08/08/07 at 02:06:04
 
so here are some more questions for you all;



with that drawing I'm hoping to clarify two things, firstly:


how should i fasten the sub? i noticed that my sub has a rubber seal on the front, side, but if i were to load it like in Eg. Red, i would have to get some sealant around the back. however i noticed most ppl seem to be loading them like the Red speaker, is there a reason for this? or can i load it like Eg. Blue?  [smiley=tunes57.gif]


then, the walls creating the chambers, do i build them in (as in the red) or out (as in the blue lines) of the guide lines?


i also noticed that the 2" x 2" reference does not match up with the X lines as they would be if i were building a 36" x 36", do i still start from 2" x 2" corner, or where the line intersects the X lines~


[smiley=waaaht.png]   so many little things that kept me awake half the night, he he...

thanks,
w.


did a bit more forum hunting, and came by 8bit-ash's construction images. to satisfy my curiosity, i took it as my sample, and constructed the outlines from it.



I'm able to see that he built the walls as per the Red line of my drawing further up., and placed the speakers as per the Red sub. what if i decide to make the support double thick, wont the the sub be moved further up, and then maybe run out of space? or do i add the second support layer towards the sealed chamber (thus making the volume there smaller).

thanks Smiley
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« Last Edit: 08/08/07 at 04:21:55 by wayan »  
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Bart_West-VL.
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #9 - 08/08/07 at 09:27:04
 
For someone who read almost all of the WO post, you seem to have a lot of questions that are already answered or are clearly explained in the plans.
B.
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wayan
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #10 - 08/08/07 at 09:47:59
 
most of the threads are a jumble of images without much regarding the measurements. true that the instructions are clear, but what i asked (i checked again and cant find a note on that in the instructions) was if the walls were measured in or out of the guide lines. anyhow, i think ill follow it like 8bit-ash made his, it was also how i thought i should be done.

as the motto goes "measure twice, cut once" i just want to be sure my measurements are correct before i use them, lol

only thing i am still not sure about is how to mount the drive... yes this is the first time I'm constructing a speaker case of any sort. so i got no experience regarding what the difference in the placement of the two speakers will do. i need to make the mount double the thickness since the particle board does not seem to be overly strong when its put under pressure close to the edges.

and regarding "having read almost all the threads" hmm... id say i read three quarters of them, but some of them didn't make much sense to me (nubee here~), so i just skimmed, or skipped them. probably where i missed the previously posted answers to my questions Tongue

gonna start cutting the boards up tomorrow. didn't have time to get a start on it today, only drew up some measurements on the sheets.

cheers,
w
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Bart_West-VL.
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #11 - 08/08/07 at 10:09:49
 
Yes, I forgot this is you're first build, sorry Wayan! Embarrassed

Particle board is indeed not strong on the edge, otherwise it's a good and cheap box material.
Use lots of glue to fill in those little air pockets on the sides of the board.
Consider using polyurethane based wood glue!

The boards go inside the lines, but that depends what you think of as being 'inside' of course. Roll Eyes
If you look at those different little drawings, you can see the box itself as if it was a faint shadow, it's clear that these thick faint lines run on one side of the drawing lines.

good luck!
B.
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Blotch
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #12 - 08/14/07 at 02:06:49
 
Yes the walls go "inside" the lines as per your red lines. Glue is amazingly strong on mdf. I had a helluva time disassembling a speaker box to recycle the wood into another box after it was glued. Good ole #2 drywall screws and acrylic caulk are usually what i use. Makes it pretty cheap Smiley. Those drivers look alot like pyramid drivers. Hope they work well Tongue I still haven't had the time/money to build a full blown WO *sigh*. I DID make plans for a 1/2 WO. The dimensions came to 24x24 inches and the mouth came out very different. The sealed chamber shrunk from about 1.1 cubic feet to around .6 cubic feet (my diamond sub will work perfect in that Smiley ). I'll have to draw it out for all to ponder on. Good Luck Smiley
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wayan
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #13 - 08/16/07 at 02:49:32
 
so i went on another shopping trip to get together all (well most) of the hardware to build the amplifier. this is what i was able to get for $55.00



thats the power supply, 5A, two heat sinks (don't want noisy fans, so got em big), power cord, fuse, power switch, cable connector thingos, some electronics for the power supply (no clue what they do) and the input connector to go from my Yamaha amp to this amp.




this is the amplifier that seemed to be the best they had over there ($20 for it, out of the $55 i spent). there were some 1000 or 2000W amps, but the owner of the shop said it was just fake, probably like 2000w p.m.p.o. or something. anyhow, the components on this one looked better. i still doubt that this thing has 2x400w (800w) of output, lol... ill be happy if its able to get a bit of rumble out of the WO.

so, back to the drivers, this amp is not strong enough to power my double coil 4Ω 300w subs, so the shop owner told me to link the two connectors on each drive in series (to get 8Ω), and not parallel (to get 2Ω), since that would probably cause the amp to blow. is that correct?

i also just realized last night that i totally forgot to get a volume control for this thing, ha ha... i think its possible to adjust the volume from my Yamaha amp, however i think i am going to go and get a volume control, maybe even an equalizer (if its not too expensive) so i can even use the amp for other speakers in the future. so, for those electricians out there~ how do i hook up the equalizer/volume control? between the sub-out and this amp, or between this amp and the WO?

i still haven't finished cutting the particle board, almost done tho, just need to cut two more little pieces, and ill have all the components ready. then ill have to cut the angles.

i have decided that ill use Epoxy glue during assembly, i also want to fill in all the edges of the particle board with epoxy, since that seems to be the most likely spot to get damaged. it only needs a little bump and the edges/corners start to flake. I'm thinking of veneering the whole thing on the outside to make it look better. still need to see how much that would cost, if not ill just have it painted black with a glossy finish.

ill take some pictures of the assembly process. might have the time to get it started today.

cheers,
w
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Bart_West-VL.
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #14 - 08/16/07 at 20:43:27
 
Hey Wayan, looks like you're doing good there!
+1 on the noisy fans and big heat sinks!

I will try to answer a few of your questions.
Those big cylinder shaped things are capacitors to even out the voltage ripple after the rectifier.
The rectifier is that square block with four pins.
Series connection on the DualVoiceCoil is correct, make it 8ohm.
I would think this amp gives 400W MAX in 4ohm, so expect no more than 100W RMS in 8ohm, still good! difference between 100W and 200W is only 3dB!
Volume control or equalizer go's between you're Yamaha and this amplifier.

A tip: if you want better dynamics, double those capacitors up in parallel.
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Blotch
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #15 - 08/18/07 at 01:39:04
 
5A at how many volts? Most Mosfet amps are about 70% efficient - soooo - assuming its 32volts that gives us 160 watts of input power which will be about 112 watts of music power (approximately) 70volts@5A would be 350 in and 245 out. On discrete amplifiers you don't want to drop the load below the amplifiers rating IE if its rated for a 4 ohm load don't wire it to a 2 ohm load. Tube amplifiers are different (depending on their construction) most of the ones I've dealt with like lower loads than higher ones Smiley . Don't believe everything your read on packaging. I had a book showing some amplifier circuits. Had a stereo 70Watt amp with tone control and it required a +-35 volt transformer @ 5 amps (350 watts) not very efficient Tongue (40%). Reminds me of pyramid car amplifiers - boasted 2000+watts but when tested in the real world could barely eek out 70watts.
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wayan
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #16 - 08/18/07 at 02:31:51
 
yes, the amp requires 32V to power it, + 12V for some kind of safety thing~

Bart, what do better dynamics do? and how do i double the capacitors? i get 8, instead of 4, and instead of having one where it says to, put two in the circuit? ill scan the diagram and post it here in a bit to clarify this.

since i don't plan to bring down my house, or disturb the neighbors (much more than i already am) with this addition to my home stereo, I'm sure this should be sufficient to just add the kick i want while watching movies and listening to music.

i think ill just try and use this amp without any volume or equalizer in between and see what happens. I've decided also to change the input on the amp that i'm building and keep it as a stereo amplifier, ill just splice the cable from mono to stereo. like this some day if i need a stereo amp i can use it without having to modify the box~

was my b-day yesterday (17th Aug.) 26 now... ehh~ getting old  :P

thanks for the info to bart n blotch. hope to hear again from you two then.
cheers
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Blotch
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #17 - 08/18/07 at 03:14:38
 
happy birthday Smiley. Don't forget pictures of your finished projects.
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wayan
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #18 - 08/18/07 at 04:20:53
 

this is what comes with the amp, doesn't make much sense to me, but posting in case someone has any advice about it.


this is what i understand by doubling the capacitors up in parallel, is that correct bart?

well on second thoughts, that looks like i linked them up in series~ ehh.... I'm confused, lol

thanks, Smiley
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« Last Edit: 08/18/07 at 04:22:52 by wayan »  
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wayan
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #19 - 08/18/07 at 04:48:05
 


for those that wanna see how far I've come with the actual box construction.

its been in that state since about a week, been too busy with work to get it finished. which is quite annoying... so close yet so far, he he.

still need to cut the angles, and hopefully it will all fit together without too much trouble. i noticed that our table saw isn't cutting quite as straight as it should be. so i think ill be getting some slight gaps (0.5~1 mm). I've found a rubber like material that i will glue to the top edge of the walls to create an airtight seal when i screw on the top. the rubber is like 2-3 mm thick (thats less than 1/8th of an inch i think).
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Bart_West-VL.
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #20 - 08/18/07 at 10:02:30
 
You're last drawing shows the capacitors in series, this halves the capacity.
If you want to double the capacity, put a second one; plus to plus and negative to negative.
(Like you would put two 4ohm-speakers in parallel to get 2ohm)

Dynamics gives the bass some more reserve so not to draw the voltage down too fast.
See it like a water reserve, giving small drops won't matter much, as you can refill the bucket in time.
Draw a big stream of water out of it, through a one inch/25mm hose, the bucket will run empty or will not get full anymore, you just cant fill it up in time, just like you're transformer can't fill up those caps on time.
So get two buckets, if there is a sudden big draw, two will have more reserve then one, being it a bucket or a capacitor.
I wish my English was a bit better, but that's about the best I can explain.

Specially for bass, reserve is important, that's why they put big cap's in cars; one farad and more.

Hope this helped.
Bart
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« Last Edit: 08/18/07 at 10:16:10 by Bart_West-VL. »  
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Blotch
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #21 - 08/19/07 at 15:08:17
 
Yeah....what bart said Smiley
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Blotch
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #22 - 08/19/07 at 21:06:02
 
As promised I made drawings of the 1/2 WO.

Here is the original 24X36 I based it on (made drawings in Windows Paint):


Here is the same drawing cleaned up:


Here is the modifications (red lines):


Same image cleaned up:


Likes like a normal 45Hz horn now. Should make one and find out Smiley What do you all think? BTW the finished outside dimensions are 24x24. The mouth opening area remains the same as the original mouth opening area (thus the modified line).



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« Last Edit: 08/19/07 at 21:07:28 by Blotch »  
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wayan
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #23 - 08/20/07 at 02:22:30
 
oooo~ if this WO that im building works as good as i hope, and i find the free time and $$ to buy more parts, id be very tempted to try out the half WO! in the meantime if anyone beats me to it, let us know how it sounds. just one half, and then, two halves. i would imagine placing two halves in the room to watch movies and listen to music could work out nice.



so back to the capacitors, i redrew it, i assume this is correct? I'm just doubling the buckets right? Tongue

how much would the equivalent of this sub be worth if it was ready made? i was looking around and didn't find many options for active subs (that were sold without the 5.1 tweeters) best one i could find (excluding the Bose shop which is just overpriced) was from Yamaha, it was a single drive, down firing sub at 10" or 12", and it was selling for over $500 i think (compared to the WO I'm making now which is so far costing me like $110) saving a lot, and hoping that it will sound better than the Yamaha! he he.

hope everyone had a good week end!
cheers.
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Blotch
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #24 - 08/20/07 at 05:30:09
 
Yup - thats how you need it Smiley keep us posted.
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Bart_West-VL.
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #25 - 08/20/07 at 17:13:15
 
Have a look at Klipsch, they have a few subs, but you might have to look around to find out the price.
There are others that build subs only, I read a review a few days ago, can't find it anymore, sorry.
http://www.klipsch.com/products/lists/subwoofer.aspx
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wayan
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #26 - 08/21/07 at 05:19:20
 
ah~~ if only i could afford some of their hardware!   but then again, it wouldn't be half as fun as building your own sub, and amp!

and yea, i still haven't had time to get anything done >.< wanted to work on the sub yesterday, but the worker had to leave, lol.

probably try and get my hands dirty tomorrow.

cheers.
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wayan
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #27 - 11/05/07 at 03:43:29
 
wow, how time flies!

well its been over two months since i last posted, and i still haven't managed to finish the sub Smiley

however i have at least completed the amp! it took me almost all of last Saturday to assemble it. i was lucky enough to know someone who's hobbie is to build his own audio hardware. he managed to give me some basic welding advice, and supervised me during the assembly.

he told me that the best way to upgrade this amp now would be to change the capacitors completely to 4 or eight better quality ones, since the four that i bought are like the lowest of low quality capacitors that are out there, he he...

i tested the amp yesterday with two Sony speakers that are around 80~100 watt each. it was not so bad. about as loud as my Yamaha amp which has 80W per channel. i would assume that once i change the capacitors it could be even louder. i hope that it is currently powerful enough to get the subs booming a bit once i get around to completing them.

once the amp is dry from the finishing room (giving it the final touches), i will take a couple pictures and post them. i meant to take some pictures during the assembly, but i forgot the camera.

i plan to get the WO sub done ASAP now to test it out with the completed amp.

cheers.
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wayan
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #28 - 11/05/07 at 11:51:51
 
here is my amp!







nice and simple, a volume button in the front left, stereo output to the drivers on the top (didn't have space in the back panel) and the stereo input above the heat sink (i decided to go stereo with the amp so i could eventually use this amp for regular speakers as well), big passive cooling on the outside back, power jack, fuse, switch, and the power placed off to the side to reduce electrical interference with the rest of the hardware.

i just tested it with the two drivers (free standing) and it was able to kick out enough audio to keep up my hopes. however i did not parallel the double coil drivers yet, so i think there might be a little improvement once i do that. i did try and connect both left and right outputs to one driver, and that resulted in a more impressive kick.

I'm already tempted to go out and find some proper capacitors since these don't seem to be up to the task, lol.

well maybe once i actually manage to get the WO built it will sound the way i want it to and leave it at that.

has anyone had experience with a Yamaha Amp that has a Sub out? i tried to set it up so that the sub out was turned on, and hooked that up to the amp that i built which i then hooked up to just some ordinary Sony speakers, i was expecting to hear some bass, but to my dismay... nothing came out... not even a buzz or hum! am i doing something wrong? i set it up through the Yamaha settings so that a sub was present in the system.

I'm afraid that maybe they made it so that only Yamaha Subs will work with this amp, is that possible? if so i guess ill have to just connect the amp i built directly to the source (in my case the DVD player) and build in a equalizer or something into my amp so only the low frequencies are sent to the WO.

unless of course someone has a solution to my SUB out problem on the Yamaha amp, he he...

hopefully ill get the time to complete the rest and have the set up ready for testing. ill try and keep taking pictures of the assembly process.
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« Last Edit: 11/05/07 at 11:54:45 by wayan »  
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Bart_West-VL.
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #29 - 11/06/07 at 08:43:28
 
First of all, congratulations!! Wink
It must have felt good to finish this baby.

I was just a little confused when I read:
"i did try and connect both left and right outputs to one driver, and that resulted in a more impressive kick."
I agree that it has more 'kick' because of the doubling in power, but be careful with that, if not fot the SQ, then for the life expectation of you're amp and driver.

That LFE output may only work with DVD's? I'm only guessing here because it is the .1 channel of a 5.1 setup.
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #30 - 11/06/07 at 09:08:19
 
hi bart,

ha ha, yeah, i went back to my AMP guru today, and he looked shocked that i tried to connect the amp and driver without really knowing what i was doing... well no damage done, both are still working. i think that my amp was not powerful enough to break the drivers, and the driver was set at 4Ω (rather than 2Ω if i would have tried to series it up) so it did not suck my amp dry.

reading back over my own post i found that i was supposed to connect the dual coil in series to get the 8Ω, which should not put such a big load on my little amp.

which brings me back to wanting to get better capacitators, lol... well all in good time, for now ill just wait and see what the result will be like.

i tried reading through the instruction manual for my Yamaha amp, and so far am not able to figure out why its not working. maybe the sub out only works if i switch to speaker B (5 channels) rather than speaker A that i'm using now which has only two chanels. i didn't think of that till now and will need to test that i guess.

once everything is completed i plan to take my whole sound system to my friends house to figure it out (if i dont manage on my own by that point). ill keep you guys posted with the WO construction. again another day passed and i did not have the time to get working on it... maybe tomorrow Sad
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wayan
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #31 - 11/09/07 at 01:38:52
 
bah, i had an accident on Wednesday... a car drove me right off the road! i was driving next to it (overtaking) and the car decided to overtake the car in front without looking and took me and my bike right off the road... and as usual (for this country) the car ran. i would have chased him down but my bike was in a ditch, and i was rather shaken up, lol

i was lucky and came of with just a couple scratches and bruises. my 3 month old bike came out a bit worse. but luckily its relatively cheap to fix stuff here, and will cost about $150 to fix her up again.

however that fiasco has cost me two days, and i'm doubtful that ill get the chance to complete the WO casing this week Sad

cheers all, and take care on the road, however careful you might drive, there are always the others that end up messing everything up, he he...

w.
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Bart_West-VL.
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #32 - 11/09/07 at 06:07:47
 
That sucks! I hope you're fine.
Don't worry about the WO, it can wait. Or can it?... Wink

Take care,
Bart☺
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #33 - 11/15/07 at 07:37:11
 
Been awhile since I've been on. Gratz on completing the amp. I tried making a little amp using some leftover stuff i got but couldnt fix a noise problem and gave up - lol. Hope you get the sub done soon Smiley
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #34 - 11/18/07 at 09:34:17
 
getting closer now!

the WO is almost complete;

i ended up just using Epoxy. no nails or screws so far. not sure if its needed at this point. looks like the box is really sturdy. i will only use screws for the lid, so its possible to still open it in case there are any problems down the road.







i glued some glides to hold the driver support (still need to router out the circles), but due to imperfections, i can not image that it will be air tight... what should i use to seal it? silicon maybe? since it would be the easiest to remove if i needed to change the drivers, id only need to cut the silicon away, and slide the drivers out. i plan to use screws to fasten the driver support into place once all is ready.

at this point i would like some advice regarding how best to load the two drivers... the drivers that i have already came with a sealing rubber, but it is on the front, and not the back (image of the driver on page one of this thread). if i were to load them normally, i would need to have the sealant on the back of the lip (i think), so i was thinking of loading them inverted, so that the coves are firing into the sealed chambers, and i can make use of the rubber seal that already comes with the drivers.

what are the pros and cons of loading the cones backwards? and do i have to invert the polarity as well?

another question... should the sealed compartment be filled with that fiber (forget the name for it)? and how about the rest, should i just leave it as it is (solid particle board) or should i glue something over the surface, like some kind of felt, etc?

any help would be greatly appreciated!

thanks
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Bart_West-VL.
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #35 - 11/18/07 at 10:06:11
 
That's looking good! Isn't epoxy a bit expensive to use like this?

How to mount the driver is really up to you, various ways will have various impact on the sound but you can mount them facing the magnet to the throat with the rubber against the baffle board. This is in fact the way I would do it, like this you have the largest possible volume of the chamber. You probably won't need stuffing with wool but it's possible that it's a bit 'boomy' sounding. You could line the inside of the chamber with carpet to reduce reflection and "boomyness" Roll Eyes
As for the boards to get fixed, it will work with silicone if you use a kind that gets quite hard and if you put a thick broad line in the corners, on both sides of the baffles.

Have fun!
Bart
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #36 - 11/18/07 at 10:16:15
 
well, let me simplify what i was trying to ask above regarding the driver direction.

best would be if someone could tell me which way would be the best way to load the drivers, A or B? and if its not too complicated... let me know why Tongue


A A A A - Inverted


B B B B - Normal~

space wise the normal way seems like the better option.

the wiring ill probably lead into the central triangle, where ill fix the inputs.

cheers.

ps, that was a quick reply bart, so id best be following plan A (inverted)?

pps, we buy the epoxy in big cans Smiley not little tubes. that would have costed a lot is that was case, he he...
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« Last Edit: 11/18/07 at 10:21:58 by wayan »  
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Bart_West-VL.
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #37 - 11/18/07 at 11:03:05
 
All I do is sit in front of the computer and wait for you to post again. Grin

That's what I would do, like picture 'A'.
The sealed volume is highest and towards the throat the smallest.
I think you get a good compression at the throat this way and not the big mass of air that acts like a spring. I think this gives better sound quality, if that's what you want.
Look at your drivers specs and see if the volume is about the same as the sealed volume of the sub.

On the other hand, this is all theory and what I think about it, so don't take my word for it.

B.

ps, is that 2-components epoxy glue? what make is it?
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« Last Edit: 11/18/07 at 11:04:04 by Bart_West-VL. »  
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #38 - 11/19/07 at 11:39:11
 
ok, so here are a lot of pictures!




front view and back view of the drivers bolted onto the support bracket









Various stages of the padding installation of the sealed volume.





Before and after installing the connector panels (or whatever they are called).



gluing some sealant. couldn't really find any proper stuff, so i got the closest thing to it... a foamy rubber material thats used in the soles of shoes, he he... biggest pro was that it costs next to nothing, however it was a little uneven. seems to have done its job however.





finally got the top screwed on! top-ish view, and a full frontal

after three hard days of continuous work i finally got it all together!! yay!

however i was disappointed to find out that i forgot to seal the driver support bracket to the rest of the WO and when i tested it, there was a fair bit of rattling where the unfixed pieces are vibrating on each other! i then also realized that i forgot to glue in the top padding of the sealed volume (on the lid side).

so tomorrow i will have to take all the screws out again, put in some sealant around the driver bracket, and on the two holes where the wires go out, glue the missing padding in, and then screw it all back together.

THEN, hopefully it will work the way it is supposed to...

anyone think i should be putting more filler into the sealed chamber? all the people that were watching my progress here were telling me how i should fill it all up. but i don't think they have much experience in speaker construction...

by the way, since i installed the speakers inverted, should i be switching the polarity of the cables around? i asked that previously, but didn't get any feed back regarding that.

cheers
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #39 - 11/19/07 at 17:27:00
 
everything you do and dont do will effect performance. experiment.

your almost there.

its not an easy build, well done.
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Bart_West-VL.
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #40 - 11/19/07 at 19:54:32
 
I agree with 60_and_up. Some things will have little effect, but others will have a huge effect, like your polarity...
...play it a minute or so one way, then change polarity, listen again. Of course both speaker connected the same!
You will hear some difference, maybe a lot, maybe little.
If your other speakers (satellites) give some fair amount of bass, it is very possible that there will be a big difference.
If you used a steep cross-over for the sub AND the satellites, the difference will still be there, but smaller. Listen carefully, try to get the loudest bass this way, then you have the right polarity.
But first put the sub where you want it, when moving it around it could be that the polarity should change again. Only trial can give you this answer. Even your listening position is important.

Thanks for all your posts and pictures, very clear! Cool

O yeah, the stuffing looks good, don't over do it though, this looks just right to me, but it could be you like the bass a bit softer, more 'wooly'. It's whatever YOU like that counts, there you're ears! Smiley

Bart
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #41 - 11/21/07 at 06:33:48
 
Grats - can hardly wait to see how you  like it after you get the bugs worked out Smiley
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #42 - 11/21/07 at 07:13:59
 
from what i've tested~ it seems to be working alright! no more rattling parts after i opened her up and fastened everything properly.

however my testing platform at the moment is just I-tunes, where i adjusted the equalizer to maximize the bass, and minimize the 100+ hz frequencies. however that was probably not enough, since there were still higher frequencies audible, and probably messing the WO up.

for now the WO is still in the workshop, awaiting its final touch, a black coat of paint. after that is finally done i can lug it home where i will test it together with the rest of my sound system. and hopefully i will work out how to use the 'Sub out' from the Yamaha Amp that i have.

in the user manual it says that the 'sub out' has a cut off point at 90 Hz. which is why i have not added another cut off on the sub or  the home made amp. the only trouble was that last time i tested the Sub out with my home made amp the yamaha amp, and standard speakers i did not get anything out of it...

until about a minute ago i was thinking of eventually using the WO as a TV stand/base, however i just realized that the magnets on the drivers will probably totally warp the screen, he he... ah well, ill find another spot.

once i get the paint job done i will take a final picture and post it for everyone to comment on. I'm happy with the result of my first ever speaker construction (was definitely more interesting that a boring box). it was a lot of fun building it for sure! haven't worked on something this big since wood working classes in high school, lol.

speaking of big... the bloody WO turns out to be way bigger than i imagined. even after cutting the components it didn't seem like a big box. only after i finally got it all together, and especially after mounting in the drivers and tried to pick it up did it dawn on me that i might have overdone myself! its next to impossible to move on my own (unless i were to put wheels and/or handles on it)!!

i have the impression that the amp that i built is way under powered. although i probably wont need to go any louder than what the amp is able (keeping the neighbors in mind), it would be fun to see just how loud this WO could actually get...

could anyone give me a link or something where i could maybe get a MP3 file to test my sub? that is already cut off at 100~hz maybe, so i can re-test the sub here with the comp.

cheers Smiley
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #43 - 11/21/07 at 15:50:50
 
http://www.realmofexcursion.com/

link to downloads top of page
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« Last Edit: 11/21/07 at 15:51:25 by 60_and_up »  

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Re: Two Halves
Reply #44 - 11/21/07 at 16:07:47
 
Great.  :)

You could test one frequency, 50hz or 60hz, wherever you take power out of the wall.
About ~20v gets you 100W in 4 ohm but it should deliver 5A!

Or 12V 3A, that's 36W, still plenty loud for a test tune.
Of course AC , not DC.

Listening to bass only is never nice, you should have the full spectrum of music.
Bass only is just rumble, nothing more.

B.
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #45 - 11/23/07 at 06:30:55
 
im not sure i understand your last post bart, do you mean that i can just power the speakers directly with a 12~20V AC power adapter, and get the 50~60 hz (which is the alternating frequency)?

thats pretty nifty, wouldn't have thought of that one...

however i went to the webpage that 60_and_up mentioned, there they have a lot of audio files with different frequencies. i think ill try that out when the WO is done getting painted. not in the mood to drag that thing back into the office again from the workshop, its such a mission to move it! lol

the biggest problem with testing it around here is that there is a lot of glass windows that were rattling like hell last time i was testing the WO, and it doesn't let me listen to a clean sound.

hopefully the paint job is done soon. now that its finally finished, its annoying that i cant test it out properly at home Sad my girlfriend wont let me take it home without first painting it, cos she says it looks too ugly at the moment, he he

thanks for the info guys.
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #46 - 11/23/07 at 15:14:07
 
Yep, that's what I wanted to say.
Of course that web page, from 60_and_up, is much better.
My approach is the easy way to hear if it is putting something out there or maybe even rattle a few windows. Roll Eyes
Grin

Just listening to bass is only... 'bass' of course.
If the windows are a problem, turn the volume down, till they don't rattle any more and then put you're head in there. Shocked
Cheesy

B.

Sorry, I guess it's the weekend that does this. Tongue
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #47 - 11/24/07 at 04:51:25
 
yep, already did the "head in WO" rattle test, and it seemed to be quite clean. the additional sealant and twelve screws stopped the driver mounts from moving, for now!

i just finished with the base coat for the WO, and have started with several coats of black paint. just gave it a sanding down again. another layer or two of black to go, and then a finishing coat to protect the paint should do the job.

i was browsing through the Hafele catalog and came by some furniture feet. i was thinking of using some maybe like this one:



that way i was thinking of facing the mouth of the WO downwards, so that it wouldn't collect so much dust, and also maybe not look like a star-trek space ship... would that affect the sound?

but then i would have the cable inputs on the top, also not a pleasant site... maybe ill have it sitting horizontal, and then i can use the WO as a table... sounds like a better plan i think. maybe ill cover the top with a 6~8mm glass sheet to protect it from scratches~

any thoughts regarding the feet / table thing?
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #48 - 11/24/07 at 11:44:01
 
Cables going thou the mouth would solve the cable problem when using the wicked one standing upright.
Try it for the sound, just put it on two chairs for hight.

Using it as table and keeping dust away is easy if you put some speaker cloth over the mouth.

Doing good, I like your project!
Thanks for the effort, putting up all those pictures! It's giving me a lot of inspiration too.

B.
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #49 - 11/24/07 at 19:58:16
 
About the legs. Could be retro add a little red in there maybe some white and you have designer retro furniture!
because of the design of the legs use all the holes and some good sized screws and anything else that would make them stronger. the legs would spread out if there was too much weight on them.
The ideal height IMHO is about 4 inches off its face. If you use it as a sofa table behind. bolt it to back of the sofa if you can.

I like the WO on its face whenever I can. I even place the wo32 on its face although its not as big as difference as the WO on its face.

Enjoy building while you can, life can change.
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #50 - 11/26/07 at 01:17:22
 
by "on its face" you mean having the mouth facing down?

i think I'm abandoning that idea, the cable connectors are already in place, and the top is practically sealed on, so i don't plan to wreck the paint job and trying to patch up the holes where the panels are so that i can run the cables through the mouth.

using the WO as a little table makes more sense. since the space it takes up wouldn't be put to waste. I'm just wondering now how much it will vibrate, and if stuff i put on it will eventually fall off! lol

could my two amp's, DVD player and satellite decoder cope if i put it on top of the WO? i don't plan to make my ears bleed with it, so it shouldn't vibrate too much, I'm just worried that the great big magnets on the drivers might mess up electronic signals?

i should have some pictures by this afternoon of a semi completed black painted WO.

btw, if i were to put the speaker fabric on the mouth, would it not decrease the quality of the sound? ill probably leave it open at this point, my bedroom shouldn't be too dusty, and a little wipe down won't be too hard to handle, he he.

and hopefully my life wont change so drastically that i cant build anything... i've always loved working in any workshop, and don't want that to change Smiley
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #51 - 11/26/07 at 16:51:38
 
wayan wrote on 11/26/07 at 01:17:22:
could my two amp's, DVD player and satellite decoder cope if i put it on top of the WO?
Take three or four springs, put them under a solid plate like marble, granite or steel and this would be your table on top of the WO to put the DVD player on and the rest too actually.
Vibration is never good for components, but the DVD would possibly not play long at all, skipping all the time.
The rest might just stand it for a year or more ... or not. Roll Eyes


i don't plan to make my ears bleed with it, Good for your girlfriend, she would have to clean it all up Kiss so it shouldn't vibrate too much, I'm just worried that the great big magnets on the drivers might mess up electronic signals? Iron plate on springs Wink

i should have some pictures by this afternoon of a semi completed black painted WO.

btw, if i were to put the speaker fabric on the mouth, would it not decrease the quality of the sound?
No!
Bart
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« Last Edit: 11/26/07 at 16:52:26 by Bart_West-VL. »  
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #52 - 11/27/07 at 06:03:48
 
meh, metal plate on springs is just getting a little too complicated. i think ill just have it standing vertically on its side then, which is the position that will take the least space.

how would i go about attaching the speaker fabric to the front? i would imagine id need to build a frame either the size of the mouth,  or maybe the whole front, where i would stretch the fabric, and then id need to mount that to the WO... how~ not sure yet. Tongue

i don't really like the idea of my hardware falling apart due to the vibrations lol, and i totally forgot that the dvd player would definitely skip and stop playing every time there was some heavy bass!

i had to buy another can of black paint, cos the first one was about to finish. hopefully we will have it done today...!



Front view.



Back view, with the cable connectors still covered.



down the throat.

well its getting close! i think it needs another coat ortwo of black, and then the finishing protective coat.

cheers,
w
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #53 - 11/27/07 at 19:05:37
 
Cool, almost done.
One thought: Why didn't you fill the little holes in the particle board before finishing?

I would get a frame the size of the whole throat side and then use magnets to fix that stealth thingy on there  :D

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Re: Two Halves
Reply #54 - 11/28/07 at 00:55:02
 
i did try and fill in the end grain of the particle board, first with epoxy, then with some wood filler... the epoxy was just soaked into the board, so there were still many rough patches, and the wood filler just didn't do a very good job, i think a lot of it fell out when we sanded it down. the best would have been to use another layer or two of epoxy (like i did on several of the other edges which turned out perfect) but that would have taken days, cos the epoxy we have is the 12 hour drying one~

now that its painted however, those bits are quite noticeable, lol... ah well, cant have everything right the first time round~

i was thinking of making a frame for the fabric the size of whole side as well actually, but i wasn't sure how to fasten the frame to the WO. how would i go about doing that with magnets? i cant think of a place here in Bali that sells strong magnets... only those fridge post it magnets :S and they are surely not be strong enough. i would need like eight powerful little magnets, to fix into each corner... hmm, other option is just to use some small screws i guess~

will keep you guys posted.
cheers
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #55 - 11/28/07 at 02:17:24
 
Well it's probably a bit late and so on but there is a WO thread and there is a 'halve' WO i found.

http://www.mobileelectronics.com.au/forums/index.php?showtopic=77268&st=180&star...

well i thought it might fit here.
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #56 - 11/28/07 at 17:29:49
 
Velcro! Wink
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #57 - 11/29/07 at 02:29:46
 
d-uh~ Velcro!

thanks Bart, that saves me a lot of skull scratching action Tongue

we have plenty velcro here that i can use.

the frame for the fabric is ready, at this point i only need to glue on the fabric, and then fix the velcro.

thanks for that Smiley
peace,
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #58 - 12/03/07 at 09:57:42
 
Okay, Mission Complete!



as you can see i have gone with Bart's advice and glued/stapled Velcro to the cover. its strong enough to keep it there, and being a soft connector, i wont have to worry about there being any unnecessary rattling.

i tested the WO with the various Test frequencies that i got from http://www.realmofexcursion.com/ as far as i could tell, there were no problems with the sound, they seemed to be clean. again because of the thin office windows it was hard to listen to the WO without the annoying rattle of the glass.

i was able to hear/feel the WO as low as 20 Hz. below that i wasn't really able to hear anything (maybe if i went outside and stuck my head into the WO i might have heard something), but i was happy enough with the throb that i got at 20Hz from inside the office (i left the WO outside due to the many thin glass windows, that i didn't want to risk breaking, and a touch of respect to the other office staff trying to work, lol).

for the feet i decided to just glue adhesive carpet glides for now, since i am still not sure in what position i want to ultimately place it. for now its going to be in the vertical position.

i hope everyone enjoyed following my step by step WO building experience. its been a long process, but we have finally come to end, he he. now i just have to resist jumping of a cliff when i find out that my Amp has a defective Sub Out line (got the feeling that its not working, lol).

Ill post my feedback regarding the sound experience once i get it all working with my home sound system.

cheers,
W.
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #59 - 12/03/07 at 18:58:59
 
Very nice work, especially for your first build!!

I forgot, or missed it, but how large did you build it? Full size (36x36) ?

20Hz is very low for this box, but it's good that you still hear it, but I think it will be a lot lower in volume at this frequency!

Rattling window can be fixed with caulk.

Congratulations!! This worked out very well, I'm jealous! Cool
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #60 - 12/03/07 at 21:50:56
 
the sound it produces will change every time you try it in a new position, you really need to experiment with it in lots of different positions before you decide where it will live permanently. i always like my wos pointing into the floor on short legs 3" and in a corner.

NEVER pointing at me.


nice work, well done. enjoy.
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #61 - 12/04/07 at 04:43:55
 
i finally managed to take the time and read the instruction manual for the Yamaha amp, and got the Sub out working!


this is what my setup looks like atm (center and surround speakers still missing). I'm moving to a new house in 2 weeks, and there i plan to fix the L/R main speakers to the wall, close to the ceiling, so the position will be the same. then ill have to experiment with the WO position. at the moment i don't really have a choice when it comes to the position of the WO. i just placed it where it fit, ha ha.

sadly the amp that i built is really under powered Sad   the two 10" subs are just a little power hungry, and the "build it yourself" amp parts are not powerful enough. comparing it to my Yamaha amp (both with normal stereo speakers) i think the amp that i built is a little less powerful. so considering that the Yamaha amp is like 70W RMS per channel, i guess the one i built is probably around 50~60W per channel.

i have tried tweaking the setup, so that the Sub is running at its max volume, and set the two main speakers to -20dB. but even then the WO is not really producing enough sound compared to the main speakers. only when i crank up the whole system does the WO start doing its thing.

i have the feeling that i need to upgrade the amp at this point... without buying a complete new one however, how should i go about it? when i was building it together with the electrician, he told me that the capacitators that i bought were really low quality, and that i shuold eventually consider replacing them for a big sound improvement. would that also mean that the amp would be able to increase in the output? or is it just the quality of the sound?

in the case that replacing the capacitators will get me more watts, (being a total newbee to this any advice is always appreciated) what kind should i look for?



these are the four capacitators I'm using at the moment, paid about $2 a piece.

last week while at a music shop i noticed that they had many different kinds of capacitators. some were almost the size of coke cans! is bigger better? lol

ideally would be to also have a sub equalizer I'd imagine, so that i can increase the low frequency gain, and reduce it closer to the cutoff. not sure ill be able to find the right components tho. just a more powerfull amp would be a good start i think.
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #62 - 12/04/07 at 16:34:30
 
try turning your wo so the opening fires onto the floor, rest it on a couple of books either side, try it.

i have got amps from charity shops many times, 100 wpc for $15.

are there any charity/thrift stores near you?

e bay also has hundreds of amps for cheap.
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #63 - 12/04/07 at 21:42:28
 
If you already say it's underpowered, then upgrading the elco's won't do much, if anything.
Besides, better quality is relative for sub only. Sub's need power, so your amp will never give enough, sorry.  :(
Even if these elco's are low quality, the fact that they are doubled parallel, gives them better reaction time (meaning: half the resistivity)
More would give more punch, dynamics. But the volume won't change! Only power can change that.
If you can rotate the sub, try that too and what 60_and_up said.
Maybe the placement is just bad or your listening position.

From now on, it's experimenting time, let the fun begin! Grin

Bart
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #64 - 12/05/07 at 02:28:13
 
just out of curiosity... how do you guys that have a WO go about moving the darn thing? lol

I've given up trying to do it on my own, i prefer to keep my back in one piece. ill have to wait till i move to the new house and get someone to help me with the experimental positioning of the WO.

sigh~ too bad the amp i built is so weak. the box said 2x 400W (800w total) yeah right! i was being optimistic when i bought it and hoped that it could maybe do 150~200W per channel Tongue

oh, and Bart, the measurements that i did was the 24" x 36" i don't want to imagine how hard it would be to move a 36" x 36"!!

cheers
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #65 - 12/05/07 at 07:26:42
 
I assume you made the classic mistake most people want to make, he he.
Different power numbers for the same amplifier can have huge differences. Shocked
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_power
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #66 - 12/05/07 at 20:52:46
 
wayan wrote on 12/05/07 at 02:28:13:
just out of curiosity... how do you guys that have a WO go about moving the darn thing? lol

I've given up trying to do it on my own, i prefer to keep my back in one piece. ill have to wait till i move to the new house and get someone to help me with the experimental positioning of the WO.

sigh~ too bad the amp i built is so weak. the box said 2x 400W (800w total) yeah right! i was being optimistic when i bought it and hoped that it could maybe do 150~200W per channel Tongue

oh, and Bart, the measurements that i did was the 24" x 36" i don't want to imagine how hard it would be to move a 36" x 36"!!

cheers


its a bitch to move.

150 watts should get it bumping ok, my guess is that your main speakers are more sensitive and get louder before the wo. how EXACTLY is the wo getting its signal?

if you wire your main speakers in mono and paralell (i think) you could cut their sensitivity in half which means the wo would be twice as loud.

or run the main speakers off the plate amp and the wo off the main amp?

or somthing Smiley
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #67 - 12/06/07 at 05:15:09
 
the amp that powers the WO (the one i built) runs of the "Sub out" from the Yamaha amp that i have (which automatically cuts off at 90 Hz).

with the Yamaha amp, i can connect up to 5 speakers (for 5.1 surround sound). i cant really switch the the amp around cos then i would loose the ability to use the remote (no remote on the home made amp) and i would have a hard time with the cables too, since i have like the DVD player, cable tv, and radio on Yamaha amp, and only one input on the home made amp. anyhow, what i'm trying to say is that its not possible to change the layout without getting a really 'awkward to operate' sound system!

the only option to improve the WO at this point is to get a stronger amp, which is something i cant afford at the moment. there are no cheap second hand shops selling amp's, nor can i buy it from E-bay, cos i don't have a credit card atm, and to ship something all the way to Indonesia would probably cost more than the amp itself!

in truth the WO does get loud! (with the amp i made), but only when i turn up the whole system, which i don't really want to do, cos the neighbors would probably end up lobbing bricks at my house! lol

Peace~
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #68 - 12/06/07 at 16:17:25
 
can you adjust the output of the 5 channels indipendantly?

turn the speakers down so the wo is louder?
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #69 - 12/07/07 at 06:29:31
 
yeah, i already did that, I've adjusted the 2 main speakers volume down to the max i could, -20dB

its already a noticeable difference, but not enough, lol

silly power hungry WO Tongue

I'm happy with the WO, and look forward to trying the face down position when i get it to the new house.

i even got a complaint from my girl friend when she was not able to figure out how to switch on the WO, and had to watch a movie with out it, ha ha i guess its not only me that notices the difference Smiley

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Re: Two Halves
Reply #70 - 12/07/07 at 17:29:00
 
please try it wo face down resting on a couple books about 2 inches gap between the mouth of the wo and the floor.

pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese,

it will only take 2 mins?

90 degree rotation clockwise, its a real simple move.
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #71 - 12/07/07 at 20:08:09
 
Hey Wayan!

Are you OK? Just heard about the quake in indonesia. Shocked

You didn't cause it with your WO I presume?!  ;)

Bart
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #72 - 12/08/07 at 02:24:50
 
60_and_up, i will turn it around when i move Tongue only another week, lol and yes it would only take 2 minutes, but i would risk damaging the paint job in those 2 minutes, trying to rotate the WO in such a small space!

about the quake, not sure if its the same one that you heard about, but i did feel it last night! i was still in the office with one other colleague, we started getting out, but half way down it stopped... it wasn't very noticeable here in Bali, the epicenter must have been some way off.

thanks for the concern Smiley peace~
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #73 - 12/08/07 at 09:07:28
 
Good to hear you're fine.

Another important thing I found. (you know I sit at the computer night and day, doing research for you! Kiss)

"A 75dB SPL signal on the LFE channel will be 3 times, or 10dB, smaller than a 75dB SPL signal on the other channels. It will only sound correct when fed to an amplifier that amplifies LFE by 10dB more than it amplifies the other channels."

That's why you're WO sounds a bit silent I guess.

Here's the link to the article:
http://avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748147
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #74 - 12/10/07 at 05:20:28
 
so in other words; i need a bigger and better amp! yeah i already figured that one out Tongue

i wasn't aware of those facts however, but those symptoms do match those of my silent WO epidemic.

not sure where i read it, but if i'm not mistaken, for every 3 dB (which is the doubling of sound?) i need like a hundred or so more watts output, no?

in that case, to increase it by 10dB to equalize the difference between the WO and the normal speakers (that are fed by a 70W per chanel) i need like urr.... no idea, maybe 70W plus 300~400W rms per channel? thats way out of my league, he he...

although i am not not able to do anything about it for the time being, it is still interesting to find these things out, to better understand the technical aspects, and reasons for the WO to work properly.

I'm afraid we have almost come to an end with reasons for research (at least for this thread). i think i now know how to improve my WO at this point.

1st ill test out the face down thing, and maybe a couple positions in the room (after i move to the new house, this week end)

2nd when ive managed to get enough moneh, ill have to invest in a better amp, preferably one made for Subs.

by the way, when people use the WO in their cars (or at home), at what frequency do they usually set the cut off? my amp does it at 90 Hz. it doesn't give me the option to adjust it, which would have been something interesting to experiment with. i would think that the WO would be still good at 100~120 Hz. so Bart, here is maybe the last question i got for ya; what do you think is a good cut off frequency for the WO~

ciao,
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #75 - 12/10/07 at 17:28:48
 
My opinion is 80Hz, so your 90Hz Yamaha would do fine, at least for me.
Higher cutoff could let you hear where the sub is located, not a good thing, only if you center the sub it could be ok.

If you double the rms-power, you get +3dB
So you need about 10 times the power to get the right result, or you have to bring down the other channels by 10dB

Bart
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #76 - 12/11/07 at 00:07:11
 
wayan wrote on 12/10/07 at 05:20:28:
2nd when ive managed to get enough moneh, ill have to invest in a better amp, preferably one made for Subs.

,


or just run 2 comletely seperate amps, thats what i do, then late at night you can turn the speakers way down and the wo up and still have beautifull bass in abundance but all very quiet. Cheesy
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #77 - 12/11/07 at 00:09:12
 
wayan wrote on 12/06/07 at 05:15:09:
the amp that powers the WO (the one i built) runs of the "Sub out" from the Yamaha amp that i have (which automatically cuts off at 90 Hz).

~


can you split the audio signal before it gets to the yamaha? and run it straight to the sub amp? = 2 seperate amps,

this may require  low pass filter of some kind?

unless the amp you built has 1?  (filter)
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« Last Edit: 12/11/07 at 00:10:09 by 60_and_up »  

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Re: Two Halves
Reply #78 - 12/11/07 at 00:13:18
 
just noticed your subs are dual 4 ohm, if they are wired wrong they may be showing your amp 8 ohms or more = less bass, make sure your subs are wired to show your sub amp 4 ohms.......or less.

http://mobile.jlaudio.com/support_pages.php?page_id=161
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #79 - 12/11/07 at 00:15:23
 
if your home made amp is kinda cr@p anyway, try 1 ohm and see what happens, it should make the amp provide much more power to the subs, might kill the amp, but at lower listening levels it might live.????????  and you can fix it if it breaks cos you built it right
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #80 - 12/11/07 at 02:13:02
 
I've wired the Drivers to get 8 ohms if im not mistaken, cos the amp is xxxW @ 8 ohms.

i tried wiring them up to get 2 and 4 ohms, but both 2 and 4 seemed to make the drivers weaker... it could be that i was doing it wrong, lol...

i wired the double coil driver + to - like this~ (hope it makes sense)

red line (+) to left coil  (+) then i took left coil (-) and wired it up to the right coil (+) then the right coil (-) goes back to as the black line in

that way I'm supposed to get the 8 ohms apparently, and avoid blowing up my amp...

at this point I'm very reluctant to reopen the WO, since its all screwed up tightly, and i would ruin a fair bit of the paint job by opening it up again.

on top of it, if my amp were to break, then id be left with NO amp... which is worse than a bad amp, lolz...

I've tried feeding the WO amp directly from the source, but i don't have the filter to cut off at 80~90 Hz, so the WO sounds rather crappy (but louD!)

cheerio~

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« Last Edit: 12/11/07 at 04:32:08 by wayan »  
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #81 - 12/11/07 at 04:01:02
 
wayan wrote on 12/11/07 at 02:13:02:
I've tried feeding the WO amp directly from the source, but i don't have the filter to cut off at 80~90 Hz, so the WO sounds rather crappy (but louD!)

cheerio~



if you point it towards the floor or into a corner, most of the higher imformation kinda gets filterd out and all thats left is bass.

p.s. you cant wire 2 x dual 4 ohm subs too 8 ohms.  can you get a dmm (digital multimeter) and see how many ohms your drivers are showing the amp?

also you dont have to open the wo to mess with the ohm load, just rewire the wires outside of it.
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #82 - 12/11/07 at 07:00:03
 
Ok, so here is my visual explanation:



by doing this i was told i would get 8 ohlms, which would work better with the amp that i had made.

how do you propose that i rewire it without opening the WO  to get 2 or 4 ohlms? he he

sadly i don't have any nifty ohlm-meter, so i cant really test it that way.

wish i could test my amp to find out how weak it is...
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #83 - 12/11/07 at 17:43:33
 
You DO get 8 Ohm but what 60 says is, the WO with both drivers will get you 4 Ohm.
What you're saying is, the resistance of ONE driver, not the total box.
You drive it with a stereo amp, each driver one channel.
60 drives his with one mono amp, both drivers together.

Did this come over understandable?  :-[ Sorry for the poor vocabulary.
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #84 - 12/11/07 at 17:45:22
 
Watch out with these driver, each coil handles about 75Wrms, right?
So never put more then 150Wrms at one driver when using both coils.

B.
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #85 - 12/11/07 at 18:49:56
 
a multimeter costs $10,

is your subwoofer amp stereo or mono?

you should have 4 wires coming out of the wo. that means you can connect to the amp 2 different ways,

paralel or series.

you have each speaker wired for 8 ohms so,

paralell = 4 ohms final load,

series = 16 ohms.

i think Huh

its worth trying,

my understanding is that if the amp doesnt like the load it will go into protect mode and not just blow up   Smiley
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #86 - 12/11/07 at 18:51:14
 
i wonder if both drivers connected to 1 channel of the stereo amp at 4 ohms would be better?
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #87 - 12/12/07 at 03:50:52
 
i kept the wires that go to the two drivers separate. if you look at the image i posted of my finished WO you will see that i have two connectors, one for each driver.

the amp i have is a stereo amp. the SUB out from my Yamaha amp is mono, so i put a splitter on it, and then run the "stereo" wires into the stereo amp i built, and then the amp has two output connectors, which i wire up to each driver on the WO.

so what i think i have is practically two 8 ohlms mono amps powering two 8 ohlm drivers that is fed from the same source... could splitting the mono sub output into two separate channels be a cause for the seemingly low power of my WO?



there, thats my little sketch of the day, depicting how i have wired everything together.

peace,

ps, i guess i could buy myself a multimeter, they can be useful for many other things. how would i use one to check the ohlm of a driver? O.o  

never owned one, and hardly ever used them sept to try and see if it could detect a current going through my finger if i poked myself hard enough, ha ha.
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« Last Edit: 12/12/07 at 03:54:34 by wayan »  
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #88 - 12/12/07 at 18:08:37
 
You don't loose power by splitting it, because the voltage stays the same when you split it.

I would recommend against wiring to two times two Ohm, you'll blow the amp.

B.
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #89 - 12/13/07 at 03:06:13
 
ill just leave it the way it is for now.

when i save up enough money ill get around to buying a new amp. or maybe ill be able to find a second hand one in Europe when i go next month.

not sure if ill have much time to look tho, since im going to be up in the Alps snowboarding most of the time Tongue

cheers.
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #90 - 12/13/07 at 03:46:22
 
wayan wrote on 12/13/07 at 03:06:13:
ill just leave it the way it is for now.

when i save up enough money ill get around to buying a new amp. or maybe ill be able to find a second hand one in Europe when i go next month.

not sure if ill have much time to look tho, since im going to be up in the Alps snowboarding most of the time Tongue

cheers.


you might get a new amp and still have problems?  gotta know whats wrong b4 you can fix it.
might see you on the snow?

where you going??







1976 skateboarding.
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #91 - 12/18/07 at 02:12:26
 
woot! a fellow boarder Tongue

ill be going to Switzerland for about 2 weeks. gonna be there with my brother, father and some other friends, should be a lot of fun!



cheers,
wayan

ps, im sure the only problem is that my amp is under powered... well the imput into my amp isnt powerfull enough, so its output is low, so with a bigger amp, that should be resolved.

i just moved however, and i ended up putting the WO flat on the floor (under my chest of drawers) with the mouth facing my bed. its already better. (still cant find a conventiant spot to put the WO in a face down position Sad )
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #92 - 12/18/07 at 19:10:28
 
pre-amp?...

B.
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #93 - 12/19/07 at 07:14:54
 
i was thinking of something like that, just a lil amp to strengthen the signal some, ha ha, wasn't even sure if something like that existed...

i think that would just be too messy... my stereo stack is already getting too tall!! let alone adding another little box for a pre-amp Tongue

i shouldn't have told you guys that my amp wasn't powerful enough, you guys are loosing more sleep over it than me!

I'm getting my speaker stands soon, they will be fixed to the wall on the two corners of my room. should be getting it some time this week. found it at a friends house who wasn't using a pair that he made, and gave them to me. just need some slight adjustments, since those were extending of the wall too far.

ill take another pic of my new room once that is installed! the new house i moved to is great! its nice going home to a proper house Smiley

cheers!
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #94 - 12/20/07 at 08:05:46
 
Congratulations with the new home! Cool
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #95 - 12/20/07 at 08:06:50
 
OOO...I know the new house feeling. I just moved into my new home a couple weeks ago - gratz Smiley. Well...a simple solution, although some peeps don't think they are reliable, would be to purchase a plate amplifier such as this one:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=300-804

Wire the speakers in parallel and viola - 4 ohm load which will match the amps 4 ohm output specs which in this case is 240 watts. I personally doubt the drivers you have will handle 150 watts each for extended periods of time so 120 watts each should be fine. Keep in mind manufacturers of low-mid grade speakers tend to embellish the power ratings. I have had a 100W plate amp running my subwoofer (1 12" radio shack 12" car sub in a 9 cubic foot ported box tuned to 22 Hertz) in our house for 2 years and haven't had a lick of problems other than our kitties chewing on the patch cord. Good luck Smiley
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #96 - 12/20/07 at 18:03:46
 
Hey wayan! Smiley

Couldn't sleep again  ;) Wink

Anyway, I borrowed a WO 36x24 from a friend, no big-deal-drivers or anything fancy, just a well built MDF enclosure.
Now it's at 4 ohm driven by a 200Wrms amp (Velleman-kit Wink)
Actively filtered and I had to turn down the bass to ‼

I don't know, but maybe you could search for the cause a bit more before you get another pseudo-solution that just might not work, like a pre-amp.
Or borrow one if possible, I do so anytime I can, saves a lot of money. Wink

Ow, by the way, it sounds better then my DB10", maybe I have to get the back chamber even smaller in the DB ... Shocked
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #97 - 12/22/07 at 05:18:44
 
initially i wanted to use a plate amp for the WO. i thought that it would be the easyest solution, to just have it built straight into the sub (dont think it would fit tho)

however i was not able to find one here in Bali. so thats why i got stuck making my own (being that i wanted to avoid spending lots of money buying an of the shelf amp.

id have to ask around to find someone with a big amp that i can borrow to actually test it out and see if it would be the right solution.

for now im just leaving the setup as it is. just need to get round to eventually buying 3 more speakers for the cinema surround sound. after that, if ive eventually saved up enough$$, i might go and get me a better amp. at the moment im just totally broke (due to paying a years rent for the new house).

have a great week end guys, take care!
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #98 - 12/22/07 at 16:02:51
 
try connecting just 1 sub to your amp and play music, then when you connect the second sub the bass should increase, if it decreases something is wrong with the wireing.

probably 1 speaker wired backwards.

i have read about some speakers being marked + and - incorrectly from the factory.

if your speakers are wired wrong youll get no bass brother. Cool

try just 1 speaker on the amp. and make sure the second speaker connected increase output, if it doesnt reverse the conncetion on 1 speaker and try again,

you dont have to open the wo to do this just do it with the external wires.
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Re: Two Halves
Reply #99 - 12/24/07 at 01:29:43
 
actually, one of the speakers was marked wrongly, they switched the red and black markers around. i noticed the mistake when i was testing the speakers shortly after i bought them. i switched it around and checked all the other connectors, they are all the right way round. ive done the single driver test as well, they are both working. ive switched the polarity around in the end, since i loaded the drivers backwards, and it seems to sound better this way.

lately in the new house, i have had to actually turn the volume of the WO down a touch, the new room layout seems to have improved it a fair bit.

yesterday i finally had the satellite dish hooked back up to my decoder, so we can watch tv again, he he... at the same time i wired the two secondary speakers to the living room. now i just have to hit the A-B button and i can switch the speakers from bedroom to living room, rather than moving the speakers out of the bedroom, like i was doing for the 1st week since we moved.

did a little shopping yesterday, got brackets and fixed the living room speakers to the wall, and did several other little jobs around the house.

when i turn up the speakers in the living room, the WO is really noticeable in the bedroom, since its thumping away on its own, end up having to turn it down a lot, lol

whats great about spending money on any audio system is that it does not go out of date the way for example a computer does! i bought this sound system like 3 years ago now, and just adding the WO now for a relatively cheap price, i get a great improvement, and still i am able to improve the system further by getting the surround speakers for when i watch movies... its definitely money i do not regret spending Smiley  (unlike computers that are outdated in 3 months, and usually break after a year or two)!!  [smiley=ahhhhhhh.GIF]
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