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700 Watt Imperials (Read 7156 times)
JRock
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700 Watt Imperials
03/23/07 at 05:46:28
 
Whats up everyone.  I want to build a set of Imperials, and am finally in the finacial area to do it.  I already own a Behringer EP2500 which boasts these power levels on each channel:

500 watts RMS @ 8 ohms
750 watts RMS @ 4 ohms
1,200 watts @ 2 ohms.

I would like to build 2 stereo imperials with 2 drivers in each, preferably coaxials with XOs already.

Is there an option out there for me.  I would like to spend as least possible.  These would be used at really low volumes for personal listening, and for high volume playback at house parties etc.  I am open to building the aditional HF horn for on top of the imperials, the main thing is a relatively flat response and decent tonal signature and high power handling.  I would like to use the amp I have and pre-built XOs.  I know a budget would help tremendously here, but the truth is I don't know what this stuff can resonably be had for- I would like to spend under 200 + the profit from my selling off of two Dayton HO 12".  (Maybe these could be used in the design?  I doubt it though...)

Whatchya guys think?

Also- I am in MN so US companies to keep shipping costs down.
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JRock
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Re: 700 Watt Imperials
Reply #1 - 03/23/07 at 05:54:55
 
I am also okay with purchasing a premade PA speaker and removing the driver to insert in an imperial.
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bnew63
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Re: 700 Watt Imperials
Reply #2 - 03/23/07 at 18:01:51
 
Jrock
Parts express has got some sammi sound 12" coaxial at a blowout price of about 80 bucks.
With a SPL of 97 you could sell the big amp and purchase a smaller one.I know ther only 12's but they might work for you.

Brian
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Braggi
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Re: 700 Watt Imperials
Reply #3 - 03/23/07 at 22:19:50
 
bnew, not everyone wants to use their speakers in a living room with a small amp. If Jrock ever wants to use his Imperial as a DJ or for sound reinforcement he needs a big amp. Also, not all big amps sound bad, even in the first watt. I don't know about his amp, but I use a PA amp on my home system and it sounds very good at any sound level and few amps of any kind could touch the signal to noise level. I can also put the speakers out on the deck and turn them up as loud as I need to and still have plenty of headroom.

Jrock, don't even think about buying premade boxes and removing the drivers. That won't save you any money unless you get them cheap used. You should also know that decent pro coaxials are very expensive. Drivers with a 2" exit HF unit will sound better, almost without exception, compared to 1" exit horns. The bargains are more likely to be found using standard woofers and putting horns on top of the box.

Whether you go coax or not, the crossover point and the transition from woofer to tweeter will be a challenge. If you want to spend a lot of money you might consider this:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=294-686
Bet it sounds real nice.

There are few 15" coaxials on the market. Let us know if you find one you really like.

Here's a 15" driver that looks to me like it was designed for the Decware Imperial:
http://www.speakerrepair.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=01-...
Reasonably priced too.

Eminence does make a line of coaxials including a 15" (the Beta series) but the motor doesn't look beefy enough for horn loading. If you choose Eminence coaxials remember they don't come with the HF driver or crossover.
Someone on this forum used Eminence drivers in an Imperial and found a largish peak around 2k hz. If you plan to use EQ or crossover below that won't be a problem but something to consider. (Jim, was that you?)

Good luck on the project and keep us updated. Thanks!
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JimP
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Re: 700 Watt Imperials
Reply #4 - 03/23/07 at 23:32:01
 
JRock,

When I built my Imps I looked at the coaxial option but was unable to find an affordable coax with a woofer that had the necessary specs.  Most have too high a Qts.  The close-out Sammi-sound is marginal in that respect, but an interesting option.  Had they been available when I built the 1/2 width imperials, I would have tried them.

The right coax in the imperial would be sweet, but on a budget I think you'll be better off with a separate horn tweeter.

Braggi is correct, I did use an Eminence gamma in my full size Imperial for one of the drivers.  It's response shows a peak around 2K, so I crossed it over a little below that  and brought the tweeter in at 2K.  It works, but for well balance sound, there is probably a better choice.  I use an EQ on the Imps, which are used mostly as PA for live sound.  When I listen casually with recorded music, it needs the EQ to smooth it out.  Part of that is relative levels between the drivers but mostly a little tweek in the crossover region and smoothing some dips and peaks in the 100-250 hz region.  (Call me crazy but I also like to bump up the 30-70 hz range a bit.  Nothin like feeling the music!)

Just FYI the other drivers I use are the Part Express Pro 15" and the horns are the SELENIUM DH200E-E 1" TITANIUM COMPRESSION DRIVER with a bi-radial horn (the best $35 horn tweeter I've heard)

I probably haven't answered your questions, but hopefully given you something you can use.

Keep us posted when you build those beasts!
Jim
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Jim P
Teaching the virtues of horn loading one Open Jam at a time.
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serenechaos
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Re: 700 Watt Imperials
Reply #5 - 03/24/07 at 01:32:27
 
Jim (or anyone),
Have you measured and drawn a frequency response graph of your Imperials?  
Just wondering how the bass measures after reading about danks Imperial SO--
(Peak @ 70 Hz, 24db / oct roll off below that.)  
Robert  :)
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Dual turntable, modified Toshiba cd player
CSP pre, SE84CS-EX SET, Urei and 6C45 Spud amps
ML TLs, HDTs, OBs, Nagaoka Swans,Corner horns, subs
Dedicated room undergoing treatment
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serenechaos
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Re: 700 Watt Imperials
Reply #6 - 03/24/07 at 01:57:57
 
P Audio BM15 CXHA
sensitivity: 101/106db, Qts: 0.24m Fs: 39Hz, voice coil 2.5"/1.75”, 350W/40W RMS; $231
maybe a step up
BM15 CX38
sensitivity: 100/109db, Qts: 0.26m Fs: 36Hz, voice coil 4"/2.84”, 500W/100W RMS; (wow) $334

I dunno, may blow the budget but maybe one side and a cheaper sub in the other side?  
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« Last Edit: 03/24/07 at 01:58:50 by serenechaos »  

Dual turntable, modified Toshiba cd player
CSP pre, SE84CS-EX SET, Urei and 6C45 Spud amps
ML TLs, HDTs, OBs, Nagaoka Swans,Corner horns, subs
Dedicated room undergoing treatment
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JRock
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Posts: 44
Re: 700 Watt Imperials
Reply #7 - 03/24/07 at 07:39:09
 
Well guys- you really helped clear up a few issues- but also made a few new ones. lol.

What specs should I use for a general guideline in choosing a driver for an Imperial?

I was browsing speakers on PE and came across this:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=299-443

Seems it might work?  The description says it is for horns so I thought it might.

Is the Sammi Buyout an option or not?  I wouldn't mind buying two of those and a couple premade XOs.  Could always keep the volume down to keep them from getting to much power...



I love just thinking about these though- I can;t wait to nail down a plan and get goin!

Thanks for the help- I will be checking back often, so please keep the ideas coming!
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JRock
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Re: 700 Watt Imperials
Reply #8 - 03/25/07 at 06:09:47
 
Would like to bump this- see if I can get some more input.

Also- what about the Mach5Audio offerings?  The 15 and 18 both have low QTs- and good power handling for my application.

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JimP
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Re: 700 Watt Imperials
Reply #9 - 03/26/07 at 00:59:26
 
The P-audio co-axials would probably be perfect for you ...except for the price.    Then again, if you only use one driver per side (as many have recommended) the price becomes more reasonable.  

On the economy side, the "Hammer" driver seems like it would be a good fit, and the price is right.

I don't have any first-hand info to give you on these drivers, though I remember some discussion on the P audio drivers a while back.

Robert,

I did do some frequency response measurements.  There is strong output around 70 Hz and 50 Hz, but not  a 24 db/ octave drop below.  I posted my results; if they are still available in the archives I don't know.

Jim

ps.  JRock, your hip-thrusting storm trooper logo is quite disturbing.  It's kind of hard to ignore that thing gyrating away while you are reading a post.  Make it stop!
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« Last Edit: 03/26/07 at 01:00:01 by JimP »  

Jim P
Teaching the virtues of horn loading one Open Jam at a time.
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JRock
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Re: 700 Watt Imperials
Reply #10 - 03/26/07 at 05:22:02
 
Hows the new avatar now?



I am really wanting to try the hammers- but I would like to know what parameters I need to look for- and see if the Hammers are it.
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Braggi
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Re: 700 Watt Imperials
Reply #11 - 03/27/07 at 06:15:52
 
The Hammers look a lot like Delta Pros and the baskets are probably made from the same castings. You might want to consider all the specs and compare prices to be sure you're getting a significantly better deal than buying new, easy to replace drivers rather than overstock OEM drivers that might be the end of a run.

New Eminence drivers carry a 7 year guarantee. That's worth something too. For the Imperial those who are wiser than I say an Fs of 40 hz or higher is desirable to maintain proper loading at high SPLs and frequencies below Fs.  Also you want a "strong motor" hopefully with an  Efficiency Bandwidth Product (EBP) of 120 or more. (Assuming I'm remembering that correctly.) The Delta pro 15 has an EBP of 95, which is lower than optimal but I bet they work pretty well anyway. They have a high enough efficiency I don't think you'll need to run them hard.

The Peavy Black Widow was also mentioned as a reasonable driver and should be easy to find.

Study first, buy later, be happy. I agree the Hammers are pretty, but look at other options too.

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Adrian
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Re: 700 Watt Imperials
Reply #12 - 03/27/07 at 14:06:43
 
JRock wrote on 03/25/07 at 06:09:47:
Would like to bump this- see if I can get some more input.

Also- what about the Mach5Audio offerings?  The 15 and 18 both have low QTs- and good power handling for my application.


i plan on building an imperial with either 1 or 2 mach 5 18's.
http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1168964183
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Too much bass never hurts, or does it ?
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JRock
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Re: 700 Watt Imperials
Reply #13 - 03/27/07 at 21:32:53
 
I see....

Well, I think the Woofer is the main thing here- seeing as how I can find many high sensitivity compression drivers that could go on top of the Imperial.

Does anyone here know where to get HornResp?  I know someone was simulating drivers in partial Imperials and I would like to try the same.

Still searchign for drivers, I found these:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-397

Moderately low qts, higher fs, good power handling, plus I can get them here for cheaper:
http://www.cheaplights.com/store/index.html?lang=en-us&target=d212.html

Perhaps a partial Imperial with a single one of those per side- Coupled with either a compression driver with large horn ontop of the Imperial- or built into the front carefully to get it to ear level height.
Then I could get an amp for just the compression drivers that has an adjustable High Pass filter.

I think that is now the easiest to implement and cheaper plan-
2 single (or dual cheapo) driver imperials with compression horn for highs ran on a seperate smaller amp.



Also to consider is Buzz's version of the imperial with two drivers, one on each side.  Perhaps 2 different drivers - say a Hammer and the Goldwood (just saying)- up front in normal configuration, with two fullrange PA drivers or good compression drivers on the side.  Could run the 2 subs off my amp and again buy a smaller amp for the 2 other PA Drivers on the side....

Anything really! lol
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60_and_up
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Re: 700 Watt Imperials
Reply #14 - 03/29/07 at 00:12:42
 
when i build something i try to build in the good and out the bad.

i know almost nothing abuot the imperial but i sense a problem useing 2 different drivers in the same cab.

i also feel makeing the main cabs work well from 25 - 6 or 8ooo? ish  hz and haveing a seperte tweeter thing on top feels right to me.

dont buy cheapass drivers, get something good.

and leave some money left over for a trolly of some kind if your going to be moveing them when thyere finished.
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