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Newbie question..... (Read 4429 times)
Dean_NZ
Ex Member



Newbie question.....
12/19/06 at 06:36:55
 
Has anyone tried to mix a WO with other ported boxes ?? need a boost to the bass line - think it will get muddy ?? or should I run the WO design only ?

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HT-EXT
Ex Member



Re: Newbie question.....
Reply #1 - 12/19/06 at 15:22:28
 
Are you talking for home use or in a car? I use a WO36 and the HWKs for my HT and it is the perfect combo. The WO could stand alone and covers the best range of any the over set ups. The only problem I have is my WO is the 10" version and I am itching to try the 12".

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« Last Edit: 12/19/06 at 15:25:09 by Joe_Eaton »  
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Dean_NZ
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Re: Newbie question.....
Reply #2 - 12/20/06 at 07:09:13
 
The system is audiphile 75% and 25% HT, the letter belowand the pictures will explain my situation.............hope you in for a good read............ Cry

Cheers Dean

Hi Steve,


Got referred to your site after having issues with a bass in a cabinet setup I built a few years back.


Firstly let me make it clear, I’m builder and a listener BUT my technical knowledge of acoustics’ along with all the lingo, jargon that go with it are another language to me, I have basic understanding and then from there I have left up to people with more knowledge – like you.


So if your up for a short read……………here goes:


About 8 years ago I was approach by a local speaker designer and builder, to help build some speaker cabinets for a mastering studio in a local recording studio (York Street Recording - www.yorkstreet.co.nz ) here in New Zealand along with various other projects which I won’t go into here.


I’m a boat builder by trade so this helped a lot in creating the speakers Chris Winchcombe (Mastering Engineer) wanted to produce.

The studio still loves the speakers to this day and there still performing well…….anyway long story short, instead of taking payment I elected to have a home system designed, scaled down some what from what they had at York Street for my own use……..mad you say – YES !


I was a lot younger at that time and had spare cash which I parted with for the ultimate home system (NZ standards anyway !)

I have attached a picture of one of the cabinets so you get an idea of what I’m going on about.


The cabinets are molded from a 20mm thick fibre glass laminate, made up of a brew which has a special filled resin system, carbon fibre outer laminate, good old CSM bulk, three grades of silica sand and barium rubber/foam sheet lined, 30mm HDF fronts & bracing, so it’s not going anywhere…….weighing in at 85 kgs each they stand motionless on spikes, even at full volume…..


Up front there’s a Vefi triple tweeter, 2 x Dynaudio 6” mid and 10” floor loaded & ported Ciare HS250 10” sub speaker, all powered by a locally made Ocean 1 amp (www.oceania-audio.co.nz/industrial/amps/ocean_1.htm ) - producing the noise is a NAD based system chosen more for “bang for buck” than high end audiophile components…….because by then I had run out of money !!


Now I think I know good sounds from bad, which as you know there lots of it out there……..recently the Ciare sub speakers died after faithful service and many a good party. I was very impressed with these speakers due to their long service withstanding hard abuse and excellent sound quality, they out performed all of my friends larger systems for punch and clear sharp production. Not the loudest but still got the party going.


I looked at replacing the Ciare drivers but by the time they where shipped and landed here my now restricted budget (married, one child with one on the way) couldn’t cope with the replacement cost – so this option was eliminated. (stupid I know….)

In my search for a cheap replacement that would fit (major problem….), the only speaker I could find that would go in the hole was the JL Audio’s 10W1v2-8. So on a business trip to the USA I purchased 4 of these drivers with the aim of putting two in the present cabinets and making two separate enclosures to house the other two, which would be positioned else where in the room.


I knew these drivers weren’t the best of quality, but hoped to make up for this with the extra two for home theatre work and just use the mains for audio listening. I’m presently in the process of playing around with tuning ports to get the main speakers to sound close to what they did with the Ciare’s, BUT being inefficient little beasts, the top end of the cabinet is just way ahead of the subs so before the sub get up and start working, the sound stage is completely unbalance with the mid & uppers a lot load than the sub “noise”.


I started to look at setting up the other two drivers in separate cabinets, the same internal volume & porting as the main speakers, placing them in the room (left & right) to see how they would perform. My crossover has matched left & right stereo outlets for the additional sub drivers as it was always my intention to fit another set at some stage. The same amp still powering the whole show, so all speakers effectively getting the same stereo signal.


THEN a friend directed me to your site and my focus has changed some what – hence this email. If the cabinets you have designed can push up the SPL,  I’m wondering if this would bring the base inline with the upper part of the system – leveling out the playing field again ?


I have the following questions:


Can I mix different cabinet types, for example a Wicked One  or WO32 using the two spare drivers I have and the present system ? would this create a “muddy” sounds stage with base being produced by effectively four different sources & possible different tunes ? I’m tuning for 29 – 30 Hz in the present system


I like the idea of the 32 x 24 WO as it’s size would be passable by the wife…….


Should I just eliminate the subs in the main cabinets and just go for the WO or WO32 instead ?


Considering the above, what would you consider suitable – WO or WO32 ??


Are these JL speakers that bad (low end quality & inefficient), should I sell them and get something better ?? your drivers for example ? $$$$


I appreciate this is all very hard to answer from the other side of the planet so don’ think I’m expecting an answer that will work down to the mm, I just after some knowledgeable advice to steer me in the right direction. I have asked Chris the original designer of my system, but his time is in demand so very hard to talk to him, let alone get him to design a solution….so I have headed out into the forest on my own, seeking advice & knowledge……


So here I stand, sub speakers in hand, awaiting your reply,


Kind regards,


Dean







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musgofasa
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Re: Newbie question.....
Reply #3 - 12/20/06 at 09:46:35
 
Well, I am not Steve, nor do I have the experience some of these guys have with audiophile listening, but I do have a lot of experience with your JL subs.

Were it I looking to complete this project, I would say leave the first two subs where they are and build a WO32 exactly to the plans and give it a try. I know those subs will sound pretty good in that enclosure and I am fairly sure they will even mate up to what you have.

BTW I like the fiberglass towers. That piano black is sexy. Good job!

Robert
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Dean_NZ
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Re: Newbie question.....
Reply #4 - 12/21/06 at 04:50:25
 
Thanks for the advice Robert, speakers in fact a very dark gun metal grey with a very soft hint metallic paint, great colur when natural light is on them and they go very dark at night. I can't lay claim to the final paint application - I leave that to the experts......

I know how to build stuff so I stick with what I know....
I'm very temped to build a WO32 just to see what they go like. I not after high volume out put, just very low accurate bass for audio listening and movies.

I get the tuning port tubes for the main cabinets in a few weeks so will see how they go.....hopefully well ? but still feel the JL will be a bit behind the rest of the system.

I liked the idea of smoothing out horn of either the WO or the WO32 as mentioned in http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=Wicked;action=display;num=112...

I have done a lot of ply moulding work and have some good technic's for this type of work.

Robert, how do you know the JL 10" so well - have you runa set ?

Cheers Dean
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musgofasa
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Re: Newbie question.....
Reply #5 - 12/21/06 at 12:58:30
 
Hi Dean,
I worked in car audio as a store owner, competitor and judge for IASCA for sound quality as well as SPL competitions. I have probably seen a few hundred thousand JLW1 series subs in my time and installed several hundred pairs in different applications.

The W1 is very "at home" in a single reflex or dual reflex style bandpass enclosure. (IE 4th or 6th order) It is also a relatively clean sounding speaker and when in the correct environment it can be a very accurate speaker. I dare say it's only downfall for your system might be it's lack of efficiency. It isn't bad in regards to most subwoofers, but in comparison to your towers I would venture it is rather sloppy in the type of enclosure you have. The non-parallel walls of the WO32 and the horn loading of the front of the driver would greatly increase the articulation of this driver for the application (I think).

It is really just an opinion, but considering you have audiophile tastes, I certainly think the 32 would be a better choice than the 36 and I also think it would sound better with this particular driver. Be sure to read through the WO32 threads and the WO threads. There have been lots of comparisons even though many have used the WO for car use and the 32 for home use, they still have comparisons. They really aren't very similar when you look at them though IMHO. The 32 is definitely intended for this purpose more than the WO I think.

Let us know how the project turns out. As far as changing the design of the 32: Honestly, I would build one exactly by the plans first and listen. The JL driver won't care much about the fine tuning, but after you get a feel for how the thing sounds, you may then decide to build another and wood is pretty cheap. I would also suggest leaving the bottom board off and setting it on the floor first and then attaching the bottom board to hear the difference. It might be a good coupling to the room and it might not, but that requires an experiment to learn. Lots of testing to do there.

Keep us posted

Robert
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60ndown
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Re: Newbie question.....
Reply #6 - 12/21/06 at 20:21:08
 
whats wrong with your current sub? it should be ok?

but if you must change,


i would remove the subs from the floor loaded ported box and put them in a wo32 (if the specks are right) if theyre not really close to working in a wo32 id sujjest a wo.
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Dean_NZ
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Re: Newbie question.....
Reply #7 - 12/22/06 at 18:50:01
 
[quote author=60ndown  link=1166513815/0#6 date=1166732468]whats wrong with your current sub? it should be ok?

but if you must change,


i would remove the subs from the floor loaded ported box and put them in a wo32 (if the specks are right) if theyre not really close to working in a wo32 id sujjest a wo.   [/quote]

Tuning the new speakers now to the cabinet, tried some Peerless 8" due to there size and fitting in easy + match to the volume when ported BUT they didn't come close to the Ciares, so started looking for a 10" that would fit in the hole, unfortunately the higher end units baskets wouldn't fit, so had to run with the lower spec JL's as they JUST fit in.

I'm waiting on 76mm tubes (518mm long.....) to see if they will help the situation tuned to 29 Hz, but I have a feeling the bass will be lacking. I think the system will unbalanced due to JL's being a little inefficent ??? the upper & mids are way out in front, with the subs falling behind in the sound stage......so thought using the other two JL 10" i have in a WO or WO32 would make a nice fill in ? more for HT than pure listening...

Was goig to do another two ported cabinets to match the towers but got refered to this site so worth a look and to ask a few questions....I tune these towers ans see what happens.....would like to something with the 10's......

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« Last Edit: 12/22/06 at 19:02:39 by Dean_NZ »  
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60ndown
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Re: Newbie question.....
Reply #8 - 12/22/06 at 22:44:46
 
seperate amps on speakers and sub would help you a lot if you dont already and i dont think you do.? id say its going to be almost impossible to get a pleasant balance on all your recordings with just 1 amp powering everything.
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60ndown
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Re: Newbie question.....
Reply #9 - 12/22/06 at 22:48:48
 
im also thinking your speakers sound very nice and 'quick' my guess is only a wo32 will satisfy your need for speed in the sub department?  build 1 to speck, you wont be sorry.but you will still need 2 amps imo.
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Dean_NZ
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Re: Newbie question.....
Reply #10 - 12/22/06 at 23:18:02
 
Thanks for your feed back 60 and i hear what your saying....

I'm going to wait until the towers are tuned and see what they go like with the JL's......should be done next week some time depending on shipping & Xmas delays....

Amp wise the Ocean has plenty of grunt for what I need - spec's:
www.oceania-audio.co.nz/industrial/amps/ocean_1.htm

And my crossover setup has another set of outputs for stereo subs in addition to the towers. They were put on for HT listening & party when the room was full of bodies soaking up the bass  :D so I could add extra subs at a later date. It's just taken a bit longer to do then first thought and I killed the Ciares in the mean time so have the situation I have now with the JL's.

By rights I should have just purchased another set of Ciares but thought a cheaper driver would sufice - NOT !
I have read most of the WO & WO32 forums and it has got me curious if maybe a WO32 would be a good addition to the system for HT/party listening only - thats assuming the JL's tune up OK - only money & time to build right !  :'(
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« Last Edit: 12/22/06 at 23:33:21 by Dean_NZ »  
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60ndown
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Re: Newbie question.....
Reply #11 - 12/23/06 at 13:14:10
 
so you intend to run your speakers and your sub/s from 1 amp?
in my experience, there is such a difference in recording techniques and levels its essential to have instant sub level controll, some recording have way to much bass and some none, how are you going to attenuate the difference?
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Dean_NZ
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Re: Newbie question.....
Reply #12 - 12/23/06 at 18:30:19
 
I hear what your saying but $$$$$ dictate the call to run with one amp, plus I have the option to run the HT system through a NAD Surround Sound Processor so there's a limited amount of trimming possible.......not perfect but enough to knock back any nasty's and I run direct for my music listening.

Another amp is on the Xmas, in fact a new front end, but all of this will have to wait until we are in the new house and garge is built and and......
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musgofasa
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Re: Newbie question.....
Reply #13 - 12/23/06 at 22:53:31
 
I think all these things support the WO32.

The JLs just aren't nearly as efficient, but they are pretty accurate subs if they are well loaded in an efficient enclosure. And they like a band pass environment. I think that having the extra cone area will provide more efficiency as well (you said you had 4 of the JLs right)

Worst case scenario, you end up putting a resistor in line or maybe a coil to balance the subs to the system while using whatever EQ or bass balance control you have. The 32 will be faster than the ported and more "realistic" sounding I think.

Still just an opinion, but if you already have the equipment and want to hear what you got, wood isn't expensive and the 32 isn't a terribly difficult build.

Besides, I always like to hear a new opinion of this design. I like to compare notes lol.

GOod luck and Happy Holidays!

Robert
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Dean_NZ
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Re: Newbie question.....
Reply #14 - 12/24/06 at 06:17:04
 
Thanks Robert same to you & all the rest of the team on here Merry Xmas and Happy and bass ridden New Year !!!!!

Yep - got 4 X JL's so 2 are just waiting for a new home and I'm thinking of just doing the WO32 for a bit of fun.

New Zealand produces some of the best MDF around and there's a new high denisty model out with uniform high density through the sheet so great for machining and perfect for a sub enclosure......... ???

Been sniffing around the web and there's a bit of info on horns in various shapes sizes and forms. Couldn't help but notice the best ones (so they say) are all curved in the transitions, does this make a big differance ? I mean bendy ply is not hard to get, it's cheap and easy to work with, if it's better why not use it ? or are Steve's design just to keep the build simple ? or are they just as effect with sharp corners/transitions ????

I see from the thread some of the guys in the WO are trying curved side walls, wide throats/flares - comments ???
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