Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Decware Audio Forums
12/22/14 at 22:50:01


Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
suggestions (Read 3318 times)
lightftl
Ex Member



suggestions
11/08/06 at 06:58:31
 
Im stuck trying to decide between radials and HDT MKIIS.. anyone have expereinces, opinions, thoughts to share?  I dont see much written about the HDT MK IIs.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
musgofasa
Ex Member



Re: suggestions
Reply #1 - 11/08/06 at 14:14:56
 
well, I haven't actually heard the HDTs  :(
I have heard the radials though. (the RL3s not the RL1.5s)
If you are thinking the RL3s I can say that what they do is pretty amazing.
I am sure others will have more interesting input, but for opinions I hope Paul comes in to give his listening impressions. He has a great way with words and has listened to all of the speakers. I know he can give you a comparison that I couldn't.

To give you a review on the RL3s I can say this.
They have a wonderful warm sound and they project very cleanly. The version I heard were very tonally pleasing and non-fatiguing at all. I can imagine listening to these all day and not being tired from the experience at all. They image incredibly well and have a terrific ability to be heard from a very large sweet spot. The ones I heard didn't lose the ability to have a center image until I was almost between them (how's that for near field?)
The range of frequencies is solid and I didn't notice any audible gaps at all. This is a biggie for me. I usually hear it when there are missing sounds, but they didn't have a problem with that at all. This probably isn't nearly the review that Paul can give you as I have very little experience with the speaker or with the amps that were driving the one pair that I heard, but I can honestly say that I really liked what I heard. Also, take a read in  Decfest 2006 thread (general forum) There are a lot of interesting thoughts in there on the RL3s.
Now who can give a good one on the HDTs? and a comparison between the two?

If Zygi reads this, maybe he can point out a way to get to listen to the HDTs and or the Radials. That would be a very nice thing to be able to do before purchasing I think.

Take care and let us know what you decide!

Robert
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
RFZ_Quest
Ex Member



Re: suggestions
Reply #2 - 11/10/06 at 22:58:25
 
Hello lightftl,



I just found this thread and decided that since my name was called, I’d better respond per Robert’s request. (Hello Robert, I heard you calling!) This is not the first time that I’ve answered this call to other forum members, but I will do it again to help out. This is what I get for answering these questions by private e-mail. This will be posted here now, so that in the future, someone can refer to this thread.

First of all, there is quite a bit of difference between the design characteristics of the Radial technology versus that of the HDT cabinet design. There is quite a bit of versatility between the Decware line of speakers offered and also those that are in the prototype stage for future release.

To understand your objective in speaker characteristics and what fits your personal taste more effectively, we really need to understand your interests in audio better. If you could, please reflect with as much detail as possible, the exact qualities which you expect from a speaker. If you could explain in detail, answers to the following questions, this would help gauge which speaker would be most appropriate for your needs.

What is  your music preference?

What level of sustained SPL  is to be determined for your typical listening sessions? ( how loud do you like it?)

What do you wish to have in the lower frequency range? ( The level of impact from the lower registers plays a significant role in the determination) * If you have a subwoofer with decent speed, or you are planning to add one later, this will take care of the bottom end. Many of these designs are so good within the lower range, that a subwoofer never enters the equation.

How concerned are you with three-dimensional or holographic presentation?

Does your primary focus lead to the absolute best refinement in detail recovery within the mid-range to higher frequency information? (This without regard to having the exceptionally low bass response well known in many of these models. Some speaker designs excel better in some of these regions than others.) It is the nature of design which determines the overall response of any given speaker. This is why it is so critical to focus upon what really interests you.

What type of amplification do you plan to use and what are it’s limitations?  (If it is one of the Decware amplifiers, I just need to know which one(s) as I am already familiar with each of these models.)

What type of source are you listening to?  In general, will it be vinyl or digital?

What are your plans for room acoustical treatment?  ( This also plays a significant role for determining the type of speaker used, as some of these are designed to work more effectively with untreated rooms than others. *All speakers will sound at their best with the appropriate room treatment.)

How large is your listening space?

How close will you position yourself to the speakers?

Are you able to set the speakers up within the room equilaterally to your listening position and away from  close proximity to the back or side walls?

Do you prefer the more traditional straight forward presence of the music, which will give you the immediate sensation of the music’s impact, or do you like a more relaxed, laid back sound presentation?

What is your price range on these speakers?

These factors weigh heavily in which to determine the design which will accommodate the majority of your determined qualities to the highest degree.

There are so many options here, and one of them is bound to fit perfectly within your expectations. With these questions answered, It should be easy to make this recommendation.

I am curious as to what state you live in, as it may be possible for you to travel a reasonable distance for which to hear these speakers. Someone on these forums with Decware speakers, may be able to offer a demonstration.

Hearing is believing!

Once I review your answers, I will get back to you with my recommendations.

Paul.

Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Zygi
Ex Member



Re: suggestions
Reply #3 - 11/11/06 at 00:15:28
 
Paul,

  I'm going to forward an e-mail to you from lightflt as it might help you see his room plus it will answer some of the questions you've asked above.  I seam to suck at suggesting which speakers will fit someones needs or likes. I'll never do that again.

 BobZ

Let me know if you got it!!!!

Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Chris K
Ex Member



Re: suggestions
Reply #4 - 11/11/06 at 00:22:00
 
[quote author=Zygi  link=1162972711/0#3 date=1163204128]I seam to suck at suggesting which speakers will fit someones needs or likes. I'll never do that again.
[/quote]

Yeah, but you sure'n'hell don't "suck" at designing and building speakers! Grin

Keep your chin up Zyg! Smiley
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 11/11/06 at 00:28:58 by Chris K »  
  IP Logged
Zygi
Ex Member



Re: suggestions
Reply #5 - 11/11/06 at 00:34:42
 
Thanks Chris........
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
lightftl
Ex Member



Re: suggestions
Reply #6 - 11/11/06 at 00:41:38
 
What is  your music preference?  I like all types of music. however, jazz, blues, chamber music, classical, opera, new age, choral, female and male vocalists, pop, etc are my primary interests.  I find myself listening to jazz, orchestral and all kinds of religious choral music recently.  I will occassionally rock out. Piano and strings are my favorite instruments.  The clarity of the human voice is important be it a singular voice and/or group. If a group i want to be able to determine the position of the singer within the group.  It is groups of singers that become congested and a bit etched with my current speakers.

What level of sustained SPL  is to be determined for your typical listening sessions? ( how loud do you like it?)   I do not play music loud, my favorite time to listen to music is in the early morning hours at low levels.  I almost never put the volume control over 10 or 11 oclock position on the volume.  I listen mostly near field  7-8 feet from the speakers.

What do you wish to have in the lower frequency range? ( The level of impact from the lower registers plays a significant role in the determination) * If you have a subwoofer with decent speed, or you are planning to add one later, this will take care of the bottom end. Many of these designs are so good within the lower range, that a subwoofer never enters the equation. I want a foundation of the bass notes. I do not like a booming bass.  However, I want an articulate and def not one note bass.  I want to be able to hear the differences between bass instruments and notes.  I do have some organ music.  I am a former magnepan owner and did not feel the need for a sub.  

How concerned are you with three-dimensional or holographic presentation?   Naturalness, resolution, articulation are important  to me.  I like holographic presentation.  I do not like sound that is two dimensional.

Does your primary focus lead to the absolute best refinement in detail recovery within the mid-range to higher frequency information?  I prefer a detailed presentation however, etch, glare tizz drive me crazy.. I dont know the all the technical terms, but instuments and voices do not just produce one sound.  they are complex and this detail retrieval is pleasing to me.[/color]

What type of amplification do you plan to use and what are it’s limitations?  I use a PArts Connexion Modified Jolida 502B integrated tube amp.  It has 4 and 8 ohm taps and rated 60wpc.   [/color]

What type of source are you listening to?  In general, will it be vinyl or digital?  Currently, I am using a highly modified Marantz SA8260 SACD player.  I have plans in the future to weigh back into vinyl.[/color]

What are your plans for room acoustical treatment?  I do not have acoustical treatments beyond several tapestries on side walls and oriental rugs on the floor.  The speakers I currently own are 50 inches from the back wall which is 2/3 from the top down a window with blinds.  I have several sofas on the side walls under the tapestries.[/color]

How large is your listening space?    The front wall where the window is located is 13 ft across.. ceiling are 8 foot, and the room is about 35 foot deep ( a great room comprised of kitchen dining area and living room)  [/color]

How close will you position yourself to the speakers?  I am seated more nearfield  7-8 foot back... the speakers I have currently are 50 inches foward from the window and 4 foot from the side walls.  They are 5 feet apart.   I would add here that the few loudspeakers esp the maggies were magical within a narrow sweetspot.. would be nice to have a wider sweetspot.  [/color]

Are you able to set the speakers up within the room equilaterally to your listening position and away from  close proximity to the back or side walls?  see above

Do you prefer the more traditional straight forward presence of the music, which will give you the immediate sensation of the music’s impact, or do you like a more relaxed, laid back sound presentation?  Probably somewhere in between. not too forward but not too laid back.  I do like an intimate expereince.[/color]

What is your price range on these speakers?  [color=BlueAny of the deware loudspeakers are within my price range.[/color][/color]

I am curious as to what state you live in, as it may be possible for you to travel a reasonable distance for which to hear these speakers. Someone on these forums with Decware speakers, may be able to offer a demonstration.    I live in Fort LAuderdale Florida.[color=Blue][/color]
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 11/11/06 at 00:51:29 by lightftl »  
  IP Logged
RFZ_Quest
Ex Member



Re: suggestions
Reply #7 - 11/11/06 at 03:28:56
 
Bob,

Yes, I just examined the e-mail and I see that our friend has also replied. I believe that I can come up with a great recommendation to fit this request. I will run my thoughts by with you privately, to see if you concur on my choice. I really do think that the massive window area needs to be evaluated as well. You and I both know what contribution this is making.

One of my retractable absorption/diffusion combination system ideas would be the perfect candidate for consideration here. ‘Closed’ while listening to music. ‘Open’ for full window view. The best of both worlds with a huge boost in the sound department. I believe this would even correct the issues currently of concern.

As stated, you can definitely design some speakers! The craftsmanship isn't too shabby either. I just happen to be familiar with a few of those speakers.

I have been listening to the MG944’s all week with the TORIIMK2 and they are just breaking in to the next stage of refinement. These are turning out to be a truly fine sounding set of speakers which I think are worth far more than what  they sell for. The imaging has really opened up to  an entirely new level, with a quality of definition far more detailed then when they were freshly built. I  regard these as  the best bargain  on the market when one considers the price versus quality factor. I have a feeling that there is a lot of hidden potential making it’s gradual mark as time progresses. I just swapped the new retail radial speakers back in place and am listening to them now.

I need to put my thinking cap on and get  to writing my product review for the tube dealer’s  web page. I have kept him waiting long enough and I believe my evaluation of the cryogenically enhanced KT88’s has gained enough insight as to make the differentiation and put it into perspective. This is going to keep me busy over the weekend. Of course, this will reference the TORIIMK2 for which the evaluations are centered on, along with your fine speaker designs, so this should generate some added interest in this direction.

Anyway, I will be calling you  tomorrow to  discuss  the other issues on hand. I think that something can be worked out there as well. We will discuss this at that time. For every problem, there is a solution, we just have to follow the right path.

Now for the consideration of my recommendation…..someone awaits my answer.

Paul.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
RFZ_Quest
Ex Member



Re: suggestions
Reply #8 - 11/11/06 at 03:50:23
 
Hello lightftl,

I did not expect a response that quickly! Thanks for the input.

I do have a much better representation of your situation and I need to spend some time evaluating this, as I need to go over this with Bob as well.

I also want to find out if anyone lives close enough to you, that might have the speakers for you to audition.

You listen to the same type of music as I do in general, so I know where you are coming from in musical form.

I am very concerned about the window area and it's affect upon the rooms reflective factor. By any chance, are the blinds a heavy fabric covered design? If so, how dense is the material?

I’ll get back to you over the weekend.

Sincerely,

Paul.


Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
lightftl
Ex Member



Re: suggestions
Reply #9 - 11/11/06 at 09:52:32
 
UNfortunately the rollup blinds are wood sticks.  The area from imaging sound staging perspective that is the biggest challenge in general is the left channel.  There is a slight emphasis overall on vocals to the left.  I dont think many people would notice it but I do.   My computer is on the right side of the room next to the love seat and when i sit in that chair the image / sweetspot is spot on.  When i sit in my chair the sweet spot is narrower and i can control it through movement of the chair.

The other configuration Im toying in my mind with is putting the system in front of the larger tapestry on the left wall.. moving the large sofa to the opposite wall where the love seat is currently and putting the love seat in the center of the window wall.   However that would create a wide open space for the left channel and a  corner on the right.

I spoke with Steve for a little while at one point for his recommendation and he felt either the radial 1.5's or the MKIIs might work best in my room.  Ive always leaned towards with either the 3's or MKiis from a sonics /refinement of sound perspective.  His initial comment to my questions about the MG 944s was that he didn' think they would be that different from what i have.  He felt the 1.5s would disappear. The MKiis would have similar qualities to the 3.s and would disappear better than the 3's in my room.  He never saw the pic to my knowledge.

I would like a speaker that excel on its own with my musical tastes and worry about the room second.  If internal wiring brands and specific caps/resistor brands /values should be factored Im open.   Im a firm beleiver in the contributions of different types/ quality wire and caps/resistors from my experinces with modded components.  I drove very satisfactorily a old refurbished pair of magnepan 1c's with modded XO's by a local speaker builder (improved component parts, wires and single input connectors rather than all those jumpers) with my Jolida 502.   I think with both the maggies and the Rega Juras I currently own they are not as efficient and that might also be contributing.  I think the 502b will love a more efficient crossoverless speaker.

AS for wire, when I am ready to purchase I can get the wire for Zygi if he tells me what guage how much he needs, etc..  I know ribbons love silver in the chain.

I dont know how long I will be in my current living arrangement so I would like to make room treatments a secondary factor.  Not dismiss it, because i know it can make a difference.

I appreciate the time and thoughtfulness you are putting into this process.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
lightftl
Ex Member



Re: suggestions
Reply #10 - 11/11/06 at 10:11:40
 
SO you know what Ive owned:
I owned magnepan 3.5rs driven by high powered SS gear. too big..; Gershman Acoustics Avantgardes driven by Odyseey Audio extreme amps and preamps.. truly refined, magical, holographic and spookily real.. just couldnt justify the expense of them.. I kick my self for selling them ans coant begin to afford them and the associate gera i would need to play them adequately.  The image height was a tad lacking, and of course i could hear the XO transition esp on male voices; Magnepan 1cs ( I bought new in 1983 and when i discovered they were still in family storage had them refurbished and modified)  they were lovely but even the treble was planar, not riboon or quasi ribbon.. i could hear that and they were still too big..   Now I own an unmodded pair of Rega Juras that I bought new for a song, and put heavy metal bases on them for rigidity and stability.  They have detail, clarity articulation, but have trouble with ensemble vocal music (not as 3D as I would like). THey have more bass than one might expect but it is not as articulate.... Im planning to keep the source and the integrated.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
RFZ_Quest
Ex Member



Re: suggestions
Reply #11 - 11/12/06 at 00:33:15
 
Hello Lightftl,

The extra information is certainly helpful. Thanks for including this.

I just concluded my conversation with Bob Z., we discussed your situation and believe that we have the ultimate solution for you. You should be very pleased by what we are suggesting.

I understand that you do not have the option for making acoustical modifications at this time, and that this may be an option at a future location. I believe after studying your room layout, that with some simple changes to the current positions of the room furnishings, you can  gain a reasonable improvement to your listening quality. You are absolutely right in suggesting the movement of your system and listening position toward the side wall as this should make a marked improvement with this alone.

You might want to experiment over the weekend with your current speakers, and see if you hear any changes while doing so. Try different things and see what works. If possible, distance the speakers at least three or four feet from the rear and at least a couple of feet away from any side walls. A distance of six to eight feet between the speakers should work well. For the sake of experimentation, lets try to cue in on the sweet spot and see if your soundstage opens up to any degree. It should.

This is very simple and all that you will need is a piece of string, long enough to stretch from the distance of your speakers, to the chairs center back location, plus a couple of feet beyond that. What you are trying to accomplish with this procedure is to set up an ideal equilateral sound field. This will provide a much better sense of spaciousness and focus upon instrument detail and separation. Get the speakers distanced to where they work within the parameters of the room to its best advantage. Then measure the distance between the centers of each speakers main driver array. Mark that distance onto your string with ink or something, and you now have a reference mark for which to locate your chair properly within this equilateral arrangement. Find the center of your chair back where your head will rest and mark that center with a piece of tape and a reference line. The goal is to attach one end of the string to the top centers of your speakers, directly inline with your drivers (masking tape will work) and stretch without slack until you can match the mark on your string with the centered mark on your chair. It will take some trial and error but eventually, every thing will match up. Keep positioning your chair until both sides match to the same points. You may even try extending the center location two feet behind your chair as this will open up the soundstage to a wider degree. The direct sound from the speakers will be passing by your ears a little more offset rather than within direct range. I suggest that you try both and decide which works better for you. To do this, simply use a yard stick and extend it from the spot marked on your chair. It is already measured, so just use the twenty-four inch mark on the ruler as the new reference point.

For this experiment, just to see what happens, try a temporary placement of some blankets or whatever you have, over the tops of those glass tables. This is just so that you can hear the difference, without the interference of the glass tops reflections. The reason that I ask you to do this is so that we can eliminate as much of the problem as possible. Proper set-up can really make a change as to how your system sounds.

Your biggest setback right now, is with the large influence that  the glass  is making  in the current set-up. You would be surprised by how much improvement can be had just by simple changes within the layout of your room.

I want to discuss the speaker option directly with you via private message, before we go any further here. I wanted to verify the details with Bob before getting back to you on this.

Be looking for a message sent to your box later this evening . You can send me your response by instant message when you are ready.

Thanks.

Paul.

Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
lightftl
Ex Member



Re: suggestions
Reply #12 - 11/12/06 at 00:44:49
 
Actually I was sitting here listening to music when your message popped in.    Ive been experimenting today and had already moved the big glass top coffee table to behind my listening chair.  That helped.  I also moved the loudspeakers out to about 50 inches (luckily the length of the room does permit this and I can move speakers back when I entertain) and separated them  further and hove them toed so the drivers pass more or less over my shoulders.. big big difference already.. sounds like real music and a respectable soundstage.  I will followup with what I did on my own today with your suggestions.  Ive broadened the sweetspot though though not entirely eliminated the prominence on the left side.. but except for some vocals its not very notificable and the speakers almost disappear.  For 600 dollars these speakers are really pretty good.  thanks for all your help.. we have a synergy going here.  I look forward to your recommendation.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Pages: 1
Send Topic Print