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wo for 12s a lil help please. (Read 8222 times)
60ndown
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Re: wo for 12s a lil help please.
Reply #15 - 06/11/06 at 16:47:35
 
my wo21 is scaled with the same idea (from 10 inchers to 6.5") and sounds excellent. but i use no test equpiment either ?
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bassboy
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Re: wo for 12s a lil help please.
Reply #16 - 06/11/06 at 17:08:31
 
60, it's hard to say what will happen.  The reason is because the horn is way too small to do what it does if horn theory is applied to it.  It is true that bigger horns are better if you want to go low, but we are talking about a horn that is about 20 feet long with a 27 sq foot mouth to get a 20 hz note.  And that still requires corner loading.  Use that sucker for a coffee table (lol) and it would suck hard.  You don't want to mod that much, do you?

Nobody really knows exactly what will happen when you mess with the horn, that's why you aren't getting any more than guesses.

But everyone seems to agree that you should change it only as much as you absolutely have to.

If I had to do it, I might extend the height and width (to make the chambers a bit bigger), and leave the depth alone.  But I would also take care not to make the horn longer, or change it in any way.  Now it won't fit in a car anymore either.  If you don't care about going lower, just add 2 inches, I can almost guarantee that will be the loudest option.
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« Last Edit: 06/11/06 at 17:17:41 by bassboy »  
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bassboy
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Re: wo for 12s a lil help please.
Reply #17 - 06/11/06 at 19:29:17
 
Here's another way to think about it.  If you scaled it all the way up to Imperial size, it would act like a real horn.  You would get a lot more sensitivity and more volume for the input power.

That also means it would absolutely require corner loading, it would not work properly without the corner.  But even with the corner loading your low frequency cutoff, where it starts to drop like a rock, is going to be around 40 hz for the mouth size and expansion rate.  The regular 10 inch WO goes lower than that.

So you can see that the WO horn is just too small to work according to horn theory, that's why I said it works more like a port on steroids, as far as I can tell.  I don't completely understand it but it works if you don't mess with it too much.

In my opinion, adding 2 inches to the height alone is a mod from the original plans, because the box is designed for 10's.  Anything else you change is a mod to the mod and it is unlikely that anyone (except maybe Steve) will be able to tell you exactly what is going to happen.  But I'm guessing if you asked him, he would say what he already said, add two inches to the height.

Good luck.
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« Last Edit: 06/11/06 at 19:31:26 by bassboy »  
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Gex
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Re: wo for 12s a lil help please.
Reply #18 - 06/11/06 at 20:06:28
 

Now if anyone thinks differant or knows differant I am all ears
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« Last Edit: 06/11/06 at 20:07:16 by gexter »  
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60ndown
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Re: wo for 12s a lil help please.
Reply #19 - 06/11/06 at 20:17:19
 
where does steve sujjest adding 2 inches for 12s?
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Gex
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Re: wo for 12s a lil help please.
Reply #20 - 06/11/06 at 22:33:24
 
[quote author=60ndown  link=1149820011/15#19 date=1150053439]where does steve sujjest adding 2 inches for 12s? [/quote]

Well until I can get back onto ADSL the search is up to you.
I did talk with him about putting 12" in a WO32 quite awhile back, and he said to use 12" in a WO instead and adjust the height to accomdate the larger driver.( too slow to use spell checker, now you know I can't spell either LOL)
then in HT forum when we were talking about HT specifically he said to use the DB12.

I never doubt Steve I just like to play around and not follow good advice.
I need a better driver to make it work well and his dayton series 2 choice is what I would use.
Thats all I got 60. I see that you posted in the general I would like to see what comes of that with the pros in there.
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« Last Edit: 06/11/06 at 22:35:23 by gexter »  
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musgofasa
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Re: wo for 12s a lil help please.
Reply #21 - 06/12/06 at 01:34:55
 
Hey 60, I just realized this post was over here after I replied to your other post a few minutes ago. After reading the posts here, I have a little more info that might be more appropriate.
Way back in the day (1999 to be exact) I had built several 10"WO and experimented with porting the sealed chamber, angling the baffle, moving the baffle etc in an attempt to make the box play louder. Every change I made to the original design had the affect of changing the frequency response of the enclosure. moving the baffle towards the throat made the frequency response a little lower, but made the box very boomy. It did not help the SPL output at all. (In car) When I built a WO exactly by the plans and put a pair of 8" woofers in it I was so surprised at how clean and loud the box was. I later took and swapped to building Vented enclosures for SPL for reasons of achieveing a wall mounting in vehicles. I built a box for a CRX with 2 JL 15W3s and went a little overboard. I used the flare rate and the length from a WO36 and extended the port all the way to the front and double loaded the box. This thing was so smooth and Loud it was unbelievable. That has been my approach to almost every project since then. Basically I think of the WO as a band pass enclosure with a tuned port. The horn flare isn't long enough to act as a transducer and or impedance changing device across much of a frequency range. When I added to all the dimensions of the enclosure I found that the desired effect of the horn/port was lost. It just became a long port rather than having any positive effect on sound quality.
The rub is you don't know what it will sound like until it is built and you don't know if you will like it until you hear it. I know that for my personal tastes, I wouldn't build the box in a 1.2 size unless I was looking for large bass and little freq range. I think that would be a safe bet. If you are only looking to make it sound bigger then scale away. I wouldn't want to try to model the output based on the horn length as it is so short that I am sure it would only show a graph like that of a tuned port or a standard "bass reflex" enclosure. If you like that idea, then I would say build away though. Perhaps the question is what is the sound that you hope to achieve and what science and experience is available to work towards that goal. Wish I could offer a solid answer here, but I think it is a little bit of a niche that hasn't been tested enough to give good, solid answers about. Unfortunately all of my experience with 12" WOs has been boomy and SPL intended for cars not homes. All of the Home audio experience I have with WO has been great, but little mods. Hope you get what you are looking for there 60. let us know.

Robert
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60ndown
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Re: wo for 12s a lil help please.
Reply #22 - 06/12/06 at 02:21:17
 
[quote author=musgofasa  link=1149820011/15#21 date=1150072495]Hey 60, I just realized this post was over here after I replied to your other post a few minutes ago. After reading the posts here, I have a little more info that might be more appropriate.
Way back in the day (1999 to be exact) I had built several 10"WO and experimented with porting the sealed chamber, angling the baffle, moving the baffle etc in an attempt to make the box play louder. Every change I made to the original design had the affect of changing the frequency response of the enclosure. moving the baffle towards the throat made the frequency response a little lower, but made the box very boomy. It did not help the SPL output at all. (In car) When I built a WO exactly by the plans and put a pair of 8" woofers in it I was so surprised at how clean and loud the box was. I later took and swapped to building Vented enclosures for SPL for reasons of achieveing a wall mounting in vehicles. I built a box for a CRX with 2 JL 15W3s and went a little overboard. I used the flare rate and the length from a WO36 and extended the port all the way to the front and double loaded the box. This thing was so smooth and Loud it was unbelievable. That has been my approach to almost every project since then. Basically I think of the WO as a band pass enclosure with a tuned port. The horn flare isn't long enough to act as a transducer and or impedance changing device across much of a frequency range. When I added to all the dimensions of the enclosure I found that the desired effect of the horn/port was lost. It just became a long port rather than having any positive effect on sound quality.
The rub is you don't know what it will sound like until it is built and you don't know if you will like it until you hear it. I know that for my personal tastes, I wouldn't build the box in a 1.2 size unless I was looking for large bass and little freq range. I think that would be a safe bet. If you are only looking to make it sound bigger then scale away. I wouldn't want to try to model the output based on the horn length as it is so short that I am sure it would only show a graph like that of a tuned port or a standard "bass reflex" enclosure. If you like that idea, then I would say build away though. Perhaps the question is what is the sound that you hope to achieve and what science and experience is available to work towards that goal. Wish I could offer a solid answer here, but I think it is a little bit of a niche that hasn't been tested enough to give good, solid answers about. Unfortunately all of my experience with 12" WOs has been boomy and SPL intended for cars not homes. All of the Home audio experience I have with WO has been great, but little mods. Hope you get what you are looking for there 60. let us know.

Robert [/quote]

great response thanks, what i want first is excellent sq, secondly the ability to make 'sickeningly' loud and accurate bass (but retaining absolute sq) if im in the mood.not spl, just amazing sq and really loud (sql).from your above post im guessing any variation from the 'origional wo10' results in a less flat response? so like i have been told above, sounds like building it 36 x36 x 14.5 is the first version i must try! but it will a few days before im ready to build it so if you think of anything else i would appreciate the heads up.
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« Last Edit: 06/12/06 at 02:22:02 by 60ndown »  
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musgofasa
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Re: wo for 12s a lil help please.
Reply #23 - 06/12/06 at 10:02:20
 
[quote author=60ndown  link=1149820011/15#22 date=1150075277]

from your above post im guessing any variation from the 'origional wo10' results in a less flat response? so like i have been told above, sounds like building it 36 x36 x 14.5 is the first version i must try! [/quote]
Yup. Of the 30 or so of these monsters I have built, the best sounding ones have been with the original design. I would have to say that even the variations sounded good, but the response became more like a standard "Ported" box with a definite spike in spl at a specific frequency. The original isn't exaclty "flat" but it is very much smooth with a wider band than the variations that I made. If anyone has experimented with the dimensions in such a way as to build one very big with a much shallower taper, I would like to know how it turned out. This would be a huge mod though and I think could no longer be considered any part of the WO design. I like the peakiness of the variations as I have always used electronic crossovers and eq to try to compensate. I am certain that were I to go all Tube amp and passives however that my sq would not be very good with the variations. This is definitely my goal in my next project to be able to build a set of towers that will not need the extra electronic intervention. Perhaps without the extras, I will find a more "true to life" sound. OK, back to work. I need to make some drawings lol.

Robert


Note: I did just recall something else. I have built the WO in 36x36, 36x34, 36x32, 36x28 and 36x24 for 10s, 8s, and 12s. The twelves in the 36x36 sounded best to me with a lower respone frequency, but I am certain that was mostly due to the increased CC volume. I also have a version with a ported reaar chamber that I built for a pair of 8s and a pair of 12s. It required building the 12 inch version 18" tall in order to get the volume I was looking for.This box was so loud as to be pretty unreal and the response was great fron 45 to 100hz unfortunately it had little to nothing below 45 though. Let me know if you would like to see the plans for that. I am sure I can transfer them to the computer pretty easy. I might could even scan in the drawing at work today. I will look back at my notes and see what I wrote down about the changes I made to different WOs.
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60ndown
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Re: wo for 12s a lil help please.
Reply #24 - 06/12/06 at 12:52:40
 
i want as flat as possible from 18 too 60 / 70  hz, in my car with this box.flat dry accurate bass with the ability to get plenty loud.did you ever build 1 with the difference in size being equal to the difference in sq inch area between a 10 and a 12? i have no idea what that is? wed have to work out the sq inch of a 10 then a 12 and reveal the % of difference. then build the new wo by that % scaleing difference.i just dont understand why, if the layout of the wo is kept identical to the origional, just bigger, why it will change the performance, taper would be the same?
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Adrian D.
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Re: wo for 12s a lil help please.
Reply #25 - 06/12/06 at 14:01:50
 
seeing how the rl-i 10 performs... (better than my db-10 + infinity ref1040w, only it's in a box twice the size of mike recomeds) i'd suggest trying the wo with 2 of rl-is. but you will have to watch the gain. the orion could kill them. maybe wire each in series and parallel the 2 subs. it would present the orion a 4 ohm load.
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« Last Edit: 06/12/06 at 14:02:35 by adi_ro »  
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60ndown
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Re: wo for 12s a lil help please.
Reply #26 - 06/12/06 at 14:17:49
 
[quote author=Adrian D.  link=1149820011/15#25 date=1150117310]seeing how the rl-i 10 performs... (better than my db-10 + infinity ref1040w, only it's in a box twice the size of mike recomeds) i'd suggest trying the wo with 2 of rl-is. but you will have to watch the gain. the orion could kill them. maybe wire each in series and parallel the 2 subs. it would present the orion a 4 ohm load. [/quote]

no, going to use these rl-ps if it kills me.not buying new subs, the wife will kill me Wink
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musgofasa
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Re: wo for 12s a lil help please.
Reply #27 - 06/12/06 at 14:19:14
 
Hey 60,
I was wondering if this was going in a car. Completely different animal in a car than in a room. It should work fine to make the box grow if you have the room for it. I have built a couple of 12 inch boxes that were scaled up in every direction to be 1.2 x bigger for blazers and a pair for an astro once.
They sounds great. The only thing you do not want to change is the throat opening. Leave it at 1.25 inches. You may even consider cutting it down to 1 inch. This will ensure keeping the lower frequencies solid. The horn mouth and everything else stay in the same flare and the tuning of the box can be accomplished by moving it around a bit in the vehicle. I say go for it and I don't think you will be dissapointed. I will see my notes and see if I have anything on the actual dimensions I used. I believe the last one of these monsters I built was in 2001. I remember extending the throat opening a couple inches into the chamber if I am not mistaken and I am certain I angled the subs in a bit. I will have to check, though for the dimensions.
It might be a couple weeks before I find that since I am going out of town. I will see what I can find, though, as soon as I have some time.
Good luck

Robert
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60ndown
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Re: wo for 12s a lil help please.
Reply #28 - 06/12/06 at 20:33:47
 
why is it ok to scale it for a car but not for a house?
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musgofasa
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Re: wo for 12s a lil help please.
Reply #29 - 06/12/06 at 22:49:25
 
Cabin Gain

I actually don't know if it is a bad thing to adjust the box dimensions for a house because I haven't experimented with that one yet, but in a car, I can fairly predict the outcome. The small dimensions of a car eliminate the worry of standing waves and reflections. You also have the issue of a car fairly tuning itself as a second part of the enclosure, Scaling the WO to a bigger size will make it more efficient so I can predict that it will get louder and lower inside the relatively small space. Add this to the fact that a car has very different sonic performance and stage and the variations to the box become far less important.
I wish I could say the same for a house and maybe in the near future I will begin experimenting with those, but for now I have a lot of experience with automobile environments. If you had come to my shop and asked the same questions, I wouldn't hesitate to go ahead and build the box for you. I did have a policy that if you didn't like an enclosure I built, I would build another one to your liking free of charge.
Let me know how it turns out. I will sit down with my notes as soon as I have a chance and get you the dimensions on the scaled WOs that I built and how I made mods and what results it had in what vehicles. Lot of stuff in my archives, but it is buried at the moment as I haven't done it in a couple years.

Catch you later!
Robert
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