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Upgrade HDT to DFR8 or AER M1 (Read 7071 times)
Krypton
Ex Member



Upgrade HDT to DFR8 or AER M1
06/07/06 at 11:57:38
 
Hello, I am new to this forum and could use some guidance.

I built my HDT's late last year and have been very impressed with them. They have restored my pleasure and interest in listening to both recorded and broadcast music. The drivers supplied with my plans appears to be a hybrid between the older FE206E-M and the newer DFR-8.

My question is should I upgrade to the new DFR-8’s (plus alternative tuning) or should I make a really big effort and go for a Lowther DX3/ AER M1.  The price difference is considerable. Is this the best course?

My listening room is neutral or maybe a little bright and relatively small (about 30 square meters). My musical interests range from jazz, blues, pop to classical with an accent on smaller (in number of members) bands/groups.

Has anyone tried either a Lowther or AER in the HDT?

I will appreciate your thoughts.

thanks

Randall
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gnat leader
Ex Member



Re: Upgrade HDT to DFR8 or AER M1
Reply #1 - 06/08/06 at 05:12:32
 
You'd probably be happier by sticking with what you have, applying the alternate tuning mod, and putting the dollars towards proper room treatments (need to follow my own advice here eventually).
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« Last Edit: 06/08/06 at 05:19:51 by Brad »  
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Krypton
Ex Member



Re: Upgrade HDT to DFR8 or AER M1
Reply #2 - 06/09/06 at 11:57:41
 
Thanks gnatleader, I will change to the alternative tuning and look into the room treatment issues. I don't think that I can make too many changes to my listening room (family room) due to spousal inertia but I will give it a go.  In the meantime I will go a drool over the new Decware Zen  :)

regards
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franksmith
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Re: Upgrade HDT to DFR8 or AER M1
Reply #3 - 06/10/06 at 23:23:45
 
I tried the lowther dx4 in a hdt and it sound very very thin.

Even in very big back loaded horn enclose they still lack body where the fe206em shines.

The aer md1 has some flaw that I don't like specialy in  the  highs but I really like the sound of the md3. At 5000$ a pair, it won't be for tomorow Smiley

I have the same driver than you, it's a fe206em but with the dfr-8 phase plug.

They are very good and take time to devlop some nice bass. Give them time if they are still "green". If you want to upgrade them, send them back to decware for the second surround. The graph showed on the web site seem impressive. I may do so in a near future.

As mentionned, investing in room treatment can be a better solution.
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Krypton
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Re: Upgrade HDT to DFR8 or AER M1
Reply #4 - 06/11/06 at 10:45:26
 
Thanks franksmith, I can only know these expensive drivers (Lowther/AER) by reputation and your comments are very useful.  My HDT’s drivers are, I expect, nearly fully worn in (I have used them for ~ 2 hours/day for 7 months now). As recommended I will look into the room acoustic issues and the alternative tunning mods.  Perhaps I might at some later stage buy a pair of DFR-8's and install my current FE206EM’s in a back loaded horn design (eg frugel-horn).
regards
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franksmith
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Re: Upgrade HDT to DFR8 or AER M1
Reply #5 - 06/12/06 at 01:43:04
 
I use mine for 12 hours/day (always on during the day)  for 6-7 months and they still getting better.

You can try to add a serie resistor of 8 ohms 25 watts in serie with the driver if you'r amp is powerfull enough.


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« Last Edit: 06/12/06 at 01:48:34 by franksmith »  
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Brian
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Re: Upgrade HDT to DFR8 or AER M1
Reply #6 - 06/15/06 at 01:04:21
 
In a bright room I would not choose any Lowther model.  If I were to use an AER, instead of M1 I would try Model 2B.  It gives up a little efficiency, but with lower resonance and a higher Qts it plays lower bass.  And with it's stronger magnetic field it ought to be sweeter sounding.  
http://www.fullrange-speakers.com/5version/eng/aertr-e.htm

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Krypton
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Re: Upgrade HDT to DFR8 or AER M1
Reply #7 - 06/17/06 at 08:59:52
 
Thanks again Franksmith and Brian.
I have let go of upgrading the HDT drivers for the time being and am waiting to see how the current drivers settle in over the next 6 months (I am impressed with the bass extension that these 8 inch drivers/cabinet combination can deliver - Diane Schuur is playing now and the double bass is very life like).  My amp is not poweful enouht to add extra dc resistance to the load.
I will do some research on the AER model 2B (information only at this stage), see about room treatments and install the MK2 mods to the DHT's soon.  I will also think about the new Decware Taboo when it comes onto the market.
regards
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franksmith
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Re: Upgrade HDT to DFR8 or AER M1
Reply #8 - 06/18/06 at 00:07:32
 
The fostex will take a lot of power without complaning.

I suprise myself from time to time to raise to volume very high (over 110db of peak) and get a excurtion of 5-6 mm (compared to the annonced xmax of 1.5mm) without any problem or sound degredation . It's just impressive the tight controled bass (lot of  eyes closing impacts) they can get in theses pretty small hdt compared to a lowther driver or most of the 8 inches I tried.

I got back to my 100 watts mcintosh amp instead of the 2a3 for this reason, 3 watts is not enough to keep up with the dynamic and vividness i like. Add to this that I'm pretty tired of sweet SET coloration. I'm looking for a 2a3 pp project right now.

IMO, you need a very neutral and open sounding amplifier with a minimum of 10-20 watts to get the best out of theses speakers even of normal listening level.

BTW, if you like more complete reproduction of cymbals, you can add a efficient supertweeter like the lcy100k or the aurum ... crossed arount 16 khz. For me it has been a very good upgrade.
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« Last Edit: 06/18/06 at 00:09:25 by franksmith »  
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franksmith
Ex Member



Re: Upgrade HDT to DFR8 or AER M1
Reply #9 - 06/18/06 at 23:38:49
 
I got my hand on a different tweeter today :

They are intended for my richard allan project but I tried them crossed at 16khz.

Thoses old version of heil amt 1 are very good Smiley



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Krypton
Ex Member



Re: Upgrade HDT to DFR8 or AER M1
Reply #10 - 06/19/06 at 09:54:23
 
Wow, that is one seriously interesting tweeter you have there franksmith  :). I have never heard of Oskar Heil until now.  How did you come by them?  I have not considered augmenting the higher frequencies on my HDT’s but I have noted your enthusiasm/encouragment and that Decware has produced a new HDT MK2 which has a tweeter on top.  It is reported to make a significant improvement but I will hold off and see how things develop.

Have you put a granite plate on top of the HDT instead of the normal MDF?  Was it difficult to get it cut to the exact size?  Does the absence of the half circle cut make a difference?

I agree that the HDT’s may benefit from a little more power – my Tripath 2020 produces about 8-10 watts of useable power and my other system (Luxman LV 105 valve/mosfet hybrid, 60 watts a side) drives the HDT’s well (although cones moving +/- 4 mm is courageous).

Back to the Moody Blues.

regards
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franksmith
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Re: Upgrade HDT to DFR8 or AER M1
Reply #11 - 06/19/06 at 21:19:21
 
I also own a luxman lv-105 as spare system Smiley

The hdt mkII are different, the woofer doesn't go high enough tu be used in full range. For me the mkII is not a upgrade.

When i first tried the hdt at home with the fe206e, I found that it was lacking some highs to reproduce a complete cymbal, trumpet ...

I measured them and found out that there was a big roll-off arround 16khz.

I bought a very good pair of lcy100k to complete the hdt with very good results even if I found them to be too expensive.

The heil, i bought them used for 250$ can, they are the older ones (more extention) using the soft membrane. They where not intended for the hdt but I tried them since they are similar sensitivity.

The most impressive with the heil is how acurate they can be from 2khz to 22khz. I heard that with a 18db/octave filter you can use the down to 800hz.

They will be used with my pair of richard allan bronze ten in a very big OB to complete them over 14-15khz.
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franksmith
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Re: Upgrade HDT to DFR8 or AER M1
Reply #12 - 06/19/06 at 21:21:48
 
My top plate are only black painted cheap pieces of wood. They where temporary ... many months ago ...

I really need to build my solid Honduran Mahogany top plates to match the speakers Smiley
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« Last Edit: 06/19/06 at 21:21:58 by franksmith »  
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gnat leader
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Re: Upgrade HDT to DFR8 or AER M1
Reply #13 - 06/21/06 at 18:22:52
 
Frankensmith, is that driver the DFR8? meaning it has the additional surround? I can't tell from the picture.  I've found the DFR8 to be more extended in the treble than the older FE206EM.  I think one could get away with not needing a helper tweeter - at least this is what I hear with my TABOO amp. Adding a super tweeter like my Aurum Cantus G2Si does still add some "air", but again I could live without it if I didn't already own them.
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franksmith
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Re: Upgrade HDT to DFR8 or AER M1
Reply #14 - 06/21/06 at 19:47:03
 
Yes they are the last fe206em which is basicly a dfr-8 without the surround.

Seing the graph from the dfr-8 seem to help in the highs but still, after 16k it roll-off.

Honestly it's not necessary to add a tweeter to enjoy the hdt but I was not totaly happy with the cymbals reproduction until I add something over that 16khz.

By the way, my measurements show a similar curve that :



But dephased from about a Khz to the left. The last peak at 16khz is arround 15khz.
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