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Oh boy.... I really started something..... (Read 13888 times)
VexorgTR
Ex Member



Oh boy.... I really started something.....
05/22/06 at 05:32:13
 
Hey there everyone... I've been a lurker around here for a long time,  but never had the need to post... until now.

To catch everyone up,  I've been a Decware Plans owner for about 3-4 years... built the 10 and 12" deathboxes... both still in operation around here.   All the Imperial stories have been getting me interested in starting a build.

Admittedly, I've found that Steve makes himself scarse, to post,  and it has led to some really stupid suggestions by the end users...   IE,  trying to cram an Imperial in a car is just stupid,  because of the giant wave it makes... standing waves and cancelation would really make a suck-fest.   But again, it's fun to suggest things we wouldn't do ourselves and let others be our guinea pigs.

That said......  My name is Bill and I like to build loudspeakers.  Like Steve, and others,  I'm a musician as well as a comptuer specialist....I have dozens of hobbies... lets just say I'm patient and always curious.

Many of you know of the PA speaker designer  Bill Fitzmaurice....  He designed the Tuba Sub series, the DR horns...  you get the idea...   Anyway,  I made a deal similar to what some of us have here with Steve...  get the plans for all the speakers for one money....  cool right?   I built both the Wedgehorn 10 and the original Wedgehorn... hardly hi-fi, but a very hearable stage monitor...    I intend to try the DR horns and the Tuba Subs next....

While having discussions in his forum,  I asked about vintage speaker designs... like the Altec VOT, and the Jensen Imperial...    Needless to say it's a growing topic.   I'm not trying to start a war,  but what I read here, and what I read there are total opposites.   I'd really like to hear from people who have built the full range imperial.... I want to make Theatre/Auditiorium speakers in the near future...  

It's really something to hear all the buzz here... and then hear that the Imperial is a dead horse not worth beating......

Please no wars...  I'd like to hear from Steve and other designers.   Bill Fitzmaurice has some good designs,  but he's been quick to shut down other designs.... on the old forum I remember bringing up death box...  I was told  "It's better than a normal sealed box,  but not even in the same class as Tuba"......  My DB10 (Dayton Quattro loaded)   is a very welcome addition to my home stereo... sounds great, and very musical...  plus it's an easy build compared to Tuba...  I say DB gets props for performance/difficulty if nothing else.

Anyway....  I want to know who's heard the Imperial.... and the Tuba... and the VOT... are the vintage designs really dead animals?   Something tells me that Bill F is too quick to dismiss the designs,  but there may be some truth in there....

here's our discussion.


http://billfitzmaurice.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=116


Let us now commence civil discussion...   We're all in this together...  we want great sounding speakers right?
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Gex Fell Off His box
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Re: Oh boy.... I really started something.....
Reply #1 - 05/22/06 at 05:48:32
 
First thing you wanna do to prevent a war is be a little kinder to those who are inventive and may run crazy ideas. Not good to make enemies on your first post. I waited until about 10 posts.

Crazy ideas can lead a whole new wave of thought. the original idea imay be lost but the most amazing things can happen around here.

I can't comment on a comparison because as much as a tuba thingie seems a pretty good design I have not built one.

Designs are not " shut down here" but discussed.

As far as vintage goes Jensen designs are old but not forgotten and for good reasons other than nostaglia.

that said I would like to see how this turns out Smiley
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Lee in Arkansas
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Re: Oh boy.... I really started something.....
Reply #2 - 05/22/06 at 12:30:12
 
[quote author=VexorgTR  link=1148275933/0#0 date=1148272333]Admittedly, I've found that Steve makes himself scarse, to post,  and it has led to some really stupid suggestions by the end users...   IE,  trying to cram an Imperial in a car is just stupid,  because of the giant wave it makes... standing waves and cancelation would really make a suck-fest.   But again, it's fun to suggest things we wouldn't do ourselves and let others be our guinea pigs. [/quote]
I'd just like to state, I take offense to this part of the post.

I am a sound junkie and computer engineer as well, also do some civil engineering and custom box building on the side. I know what I'm doing. Whether or not an Imperial-type horn enclosure would work in a van is pure theory, at this point in time, just like the Imperial itself was at one point; just like all enclosure designs were at one point.

I've dabbled in the Imperial quite a bit, but for reason of not a large listening room (or van yet), I haven't built one. Give me a room, and I build your Imperial and Tuba Sub so you can have a side by side comparison. Or rather than attacking the inventive and/or attempting to start a war between the two sites, you could build one yourself and do the side by side. I'm sure if it doesn't perform to your liking, someone here can help you fix it(if done wrong) or would be happy to take it off your hands.
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« Last Edit: 05/22/06 at 12:33:13 by Jet-Lee »  
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Adrian D.
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Re: Oh boy.... I really started something.....
Reply #3 - 05/22/06 at 12:38:29
 
geez, what's wrong in trying the imperial in a car ?
it's not like you would go around saying: listen to how bad steve's design sounds in a car. if i'd have an imperial and an van, i'd try it. if it works, good 4 me. if not, at least i haven't lost anything. maybe i prevented other bass junkies like myself and jet from doing it again
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« Last Edit: 05/22/06 at 12:38:45 by adi_ro »  
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Gexter
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Re: Oh boy.... I really started something.....
Reply #4 - 05/22/06 at 13:24:05
 
[quote author=Lee in Arkansas  link=1148275933/0#2 date=1148297412]
I'd just like to state, I take offense to this part of the post.

I am a sound junkie and computer engineer as well, also do some civil engineering and custom box building on the side. I know what I'm doing. Whether or not an Imperial-type horn enclosure would work in a van is pure theory, at this point in time, just like the Imperial itself was at one point; just like all enclosure designs were at one point.

I've dabbled in the Imperial quite a bit, but for reason of not a large listening room (or van yet), I haven't built one. Give me a room, and I build your Imperial and Tuba Sub so you can have a side by side comparison. Or rather than attacking the inventive and/or attempting to start a war between the two sites, you could build one yourself and do the side by side. I'm sure if it doesn't perform to your liking, someone here can help you fix it(if done wrong) or would be happy to take it off your hands. [/quote]

Hey Jet I take offense two. or is it too  or to or 2

Jet - I did not know you wuz edumacated??? creative and smart and married off  :).  
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VexorgTR
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Re: Oh boy.... I really started something.....
Reply #5 - 05/22/06 at 13:52:30
 
Before you all start riding me like a pony at a kid's birthday... perhaps you should read the designers notes... and I quote.


"APPLICATIONS

Before you build one or a pair of these speakers you really should know the intended application of which there are three.  

Subwoofer - this is the simplest implimentation of the cabinet.  All you have to do accomplish decent response across 2 octaves between 25Hz and 100Hz.  You can also use a very wide variety of drivers for this application.
P.A. Speakers/theater - As shown above.
High Fidelity Playback - As shown above with special considerations or with a single 15 inch coax, using the 2nd woofer for 50 Hz and below.
In all applications there is one consistancy - the room must be large.  24 x 24 feet is really about the minimum and frankly rooms 2 to 4 times this size would be less problematic.


That'd be a really big car/van..    A bus maybe?


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Lee in Arkansas
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Re: Oh boy.... I really started something.....
Reply #6 - 05/22/06 at 14:25:38
 
SPL competitions are won with <= 50hz tones; in sedans, stationwagons, pickups, vans, etc. Why would the type of box render the application obsolete when it produces frequencies in the target range?

[quote author=Gexter  link=1148275933/0#4 date=1148300645]

Hey Jet I take offense two. or is it too  or to or 2

Jet - I did not know you wuz edumacated??? creative and smart and married off  :).  
[/quote]
Freaky, huh? I surprise myself sometimes.

BTW, it's "too."

[quote author=Lee in Arkansas  link=1148275933/0#2 date=1148297412]
Whether or not an Imperial-type horn enclosure would work in a van is pure theory, at this point in time, just like the Imperial itself was at one point; just like all enclosure designs and applications were at one point. [/quote]
I'd also like to add what is italicized in the above quote of myself.
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« Last Edit: 05/22/06 at 15:03:52 by Jet-Lee »  
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bassboy
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Re: Oh boy.... I really started something.....
Reply #7 - 05/22/06 at 14:53:40
 
Let me start by saying that I do not have the plans for the Tubas.  Let me tell you why.

Look at the Tuba 36 page.  The frequency response chart shows response drops like a stone at 40 hz.  There is some mention of some vertical baffle with extension to 15 hz - if it's true, why isn't it shown?  Or is it maybe -10db or even more at 15 hz?  The graph doesn't look like anything special.

Look at the 3d pics below the graph.  This thing looks exactly like the imperial with a different folding and loading scheme.  You can load the imperial any way you want and fold it differently too.  The horn flare looks to me to be very similar to the imperial and the physical size of the box is almost identical.

You show me a horn that fits in a box the size of the imperial or the tuba 36 that gets extension flat from 15 hz to 100 hz and I'll give $1000 for the plans.
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serenechaos
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Re: Oh boy.... I really started something.....
Reply #8 - 05/22/06 at 15:31:55
 
[quote author=bassboy  link=1148275933/0#7 date=1148306020]
You show me a horn that fits in a box the size of the imperial or the tuba 36 that gets extension flat from 15 hz to 100 hz and I'll give $1000 for the plans. [/quote]
Linkwitz Transform a sealed box feeding an expontial front horn?
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« Last Edit: 05/22/06 at 15:39:00 by serenechaos »  
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bassboy
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Re: Oh boy.... I really started something.....
Reply #9 - 05/22/06 at 18:14:52
 
Just to be fair, Bill's Tuba does not seem like a bad design.  The compression chamber is smaller, meaning the horn flare is probably a bit longer because they are the same size.

But based on the frequency response graph, there really doesn't seem to be much difference in output at all.

But again, to be fair, the Jensen plans are free and Bill's aren't.  I wouldn't advise trying to follow the Jensen plans to the letter, but they give enough info to guarantee success if you know what you are doing.  If you don't, you need to buy Steve's plans.

Also, the imperial has more options for driver loading.  You can easily make it front loaded, back loaded or the completely different Imperial SO.  Also, the back loaded alignment allows for a full range design.  You just don't have any ability to make these changes with Bill's Tuba.

The thing is, if you are in the market for a 40 hz bass cornerhorn, you can't go wrong with either design.  But if you want flexibility, it is built right into the Imperial.
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shayneyasinski
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Re: Oh boy.... I really started something.....
Reply #10 - 05/22/06 at 22:07:17
 
Cheesy I have waited for this day. Cheesy

this last winter i built a table tuba as i was told by Bill that it is what i was looking for.
It plays low and i mean low!! so low i cant hear it.....
now i was told i built it wrong by using 3/4 mdf instead of 5/8 mdf and that i did a poor job of bracing ect .
posting my opinion on the box and all i got was alot of Bills fans telling me i was a moron.
there were a couple of guys there that were good and helped me alot.
I did try other drivers and that made a difference but in the
end Bills tuba just has no place in a home theatre or a system that needs to play loud with punch.
I am still building and learning and love the plans on this site .
as far as a Imperial in a van.... my years in auto sound building cars for guys with thick wallets is this.
solid wall with lots of 10's so you get no space in between them and then a wack of power with lots of gell cells and many farads of caps.
shayne
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VexorgTR
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Re: Oh boy.... I really started something.....
Reply #11 - 05/22/06 at 22:55:41
 
The "Table Tuba" is that 8" MCM driver thing.... Havn't tried it yet... read the plan though.

I remember someone was dissing the Decware Deathbox and saying Auto Tuba could kick its ass... considering that the AutoTuba is twice as big, and infinately harder to build...   it's a lame comparison.

I mainly wanted to build the "Wedgehorns"  that are on there.. as a pro musician I can use them..   WHen I finished each one.. the original and the 10... they totally sounded like crap.. no joke..  after breaking in the driver, they became quite good.   I wrote this up on the forum and was told I was crazy by Bill's Yes Men...  Bill said that it was about half of the cone's break in and half of me "getting used to the speaker".... If you have to "get used to it"  it's not a great sounding thing.

The Wedgehorns are good stage monitors...  no hi-fi,  but very audible on stage.. more than the usual JBL's Communities, and Yamahas I've used before.

I plan to try a DR250 Horn next...  Those designs are not for the beginner... sheesh.

Me thinketh Bill F's Attitude Stinketh.
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bassboy
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Re: Oh boy.... I really started something.....
Reply #12 - 05/22/06 at 23:24:05
 
Don't take this too far.  As far as I know Bill is a very reputable designer and his products are very valid in the context for which they were designed, which, for the most part is pro audio.  Pro audio is usually very very loud and usually does not extend very low.  The imperial can be used for pro audio but has many other incarnations as well.
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J_Rock
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Re: Oh boy.... I really started something.....
Reply #13 - 05/23/06 at 01:28:02
 
I am confused as to what this thread is meant to be.  Granted you did say you didn't want to start a flame war, yet the first post seems to request it at the same time.


In any case, BassBoy is right, Bill F's designs are good for their intended uses.  Which entail P.A. Audio.  They need to be loud and sound clear in the musical range.  Hence the dropoff after 40hz on almost every design.

The Jensen is on the other hand a completely different animal in every aspect aside from the Horn somewhere in each design.  It is made to take 2 large woofers low and clean.  Loudness is a very nice side-effect.

The DeathBoxes on the other hand are simply regular ported boxes with a twist:  a tunable insert to greatly increase the number of drivers that will work in them, and decrease the knowledge necessary to make them sound good.  Simply slide an insert till you are happy.  Not to mention the size is smaller yet yeilds flat extension below 40hz.

Apples to Oranges...
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Gexter
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Re: Oh boy.... I really started something.....
Reply #14 - 05/23/06 at 01:40:04
 
Me thinkith that bassboy and J rock is righth.
however;

I will stand behind Jensen designs and Steves adjustments.
I have thought of the bass tuba but can fullfill all my Bass requirements with Decware product and then some. I don't think I would ever pay for another sub design beyond the decwares.
Any other designs that I have been interested in are free and all you need is a pencil and a calculater and some time.

Each has its application. and that can really depend on what a person likes. I really dislike the sound of a DB 10 for HT
I really like the DB12 for HT. But I know I may ( may) do better with another design.
For the ultimate HT for me it would be a Full size Decware Imperial with a transflex as an experimental project. I think with some work it would be awsome if it was not already.
But I will not know until I build one for sure.

Lets keep it going so we can get a real comparison from those who had built both..
thanks shayne for your input
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« Last Edit: 05/23/06 at 01:46:49 by gexter »  
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