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CSP owners: amount of hum? (Read 9445 times)
JimJ
Ex Member



CSP owners: amount of hum?
03/06/06 at 01:05:39
 
Hey all...

After almost a year, I'm an owner of a Decware product again Cheesy This time, it's an SE84CSP...



Going to have a walnut base and brass Audio Note knob shortly.

However, I have a question. I'm getting a fair amount of hum with my current speakers (Klipsch Forte II's, 96dB/W efficient). I don't remember my Zen ever having this much hum. Do you think it's because I'm running the CSP into the power amp input on my NAD 3020 integrated? I'm thinking the CSP provides simply way too much gain for it, and the hum is a byproduct...

I know I'm probably worrying unnecessarily, but the actual amps I'm going to be using for this aren't due to come in for about a month or so.
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Zygi
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Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #1 - 03/06/06 at 02:46:54
 
Jim J

 My CSP is dead quiet with Torii I, Torii II and Taboo, It did hum with the mono blocks which was a ground loop.

   BobZ
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JimJ
Ex Member



Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #2 - 03/06/06 at 03:08:16
 
Any advice for how I could set my amp and the CSP up, for now, so I can avoid a ground loop? I'll be running monoblocks eventually, so I guess I need to fix this problem now rather than later Smiley It would also make me feel better if I could get this quiet, right now it's almost unlistenable at half-volume with the level of the background hum.

Thanks in advance...

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« Last Edit: 03/06/06 at 03:09:47 by Jack_Frost »  
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crazy bill the eel killer
Ex Member



Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #3 - 03/06/06 at 03:08:33
 
Hello JimJ,

throw a cheater plug on it and see if the hum goes away.

If it does, it's a ground loop.

If not, your first thought is a definate possibility.

Cheers,                 Bill                  :D
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crazy bill the eel killer
Ex Member



Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #4 - 03/06/06 at 03:13:20
 
Hey Jim,

Ground loops occurr when the individual grounds from each component are not at the same potential, causing currents to flow in the grounds, causing hum. Try my fix above, if it works, there are ways to fix it depending upon your present power delivery setup.

Let me know how you make out.

Bill                    :D
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JimJ
Ex Member



Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #5 - 03/06/06 at 04:11:41
 
Why can't anything be simple in this hobby?  :'(

I plugged the preamp in with one of those adapters inline, and while it took care of a lot of the noise, there's still a lot of noticeable background hum - more than a regular SET hum.

What should I be looking at now? I've seen listings for isolation transformers/line conditioners on Ebay...is this the sort of thing that'll take care of the rest of the noise? Could I build such an isolator myself?

Sorry for the n00b-ish questions Tongue
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chrish
Ex Member



Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #6 - 03/06/06 at 12:53:35
 
I'm curious about this one too. My CSP is dead quiet with the Taboo.  It hums with Welborne DRD45 mono blocks.  I've tried all combinations of lifting the grounds using cheater plugs.

I wonder if it relates to the  DRDs only needing about  half the gain that the CSP provides?

Chris
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JimJ
Ex Member



Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #7 - 03/06/06 at 14:59:14
 
I posted this over on AudioAsylum, see if any of those tech-heads has an answer, they usually do Cheesy
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brucevtx
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Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #8 - 03/06/06 at 15:52:59
 
Jim
I have a CSP connected to the "amp in" on my SS McIntosh Integrated. The only time I hear noise is when I turn the volume up with no source playing. I'm running 6dj8 Amperex BBs and a Mullard GZ34 rectifier. Initially replaced the Sovteks with JAN 6922s and a Mazda 5y3. Sounded good. Saved up for the BBs and Mullard. Sounds great.The Tubes may make a difference. The CSP does have gain pods that can be adjusted to better match your amp. There is a disscusion on the site somewere from a while back that addresses the subject. Hope this helps.
Bruce
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Sam in USA
Ex Member



Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #9 - 03/06/06 at 19:03:19
 
I don't have any hum with CSP when I use with Taboo. There is a little bit of hum with the select but that could just the hum from select. I am thinking of using a choke in place of the 1K power resistor in the select.  :)
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JimJ
Ex Member



Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #10 - 03/06/06 at 23:23:30
 
Now that I think about it, the RCA cable connecting the CSP to the power amp was missing one of the metal barrels on the power amp side...do you think that this exposed connection might be a place for excess noise to enter the system?

I'm out of town for a week, but when I get back this weekend I'm going to try swapping out the cables and bonding the chassis with ground braid.

Also, would one of those "ground loop isolator" things for the RCA's work? The ones sold by Scosche, Metra, etc...for isolating the interconnects.
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JDW
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Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #11 - 03/07/06 at 18:08:14
 
Sorry for the noobish question. What is a cheater plug. My Select is dead quiet, so is my P-P amp. I do notice a slight bit more noise with my CSP.
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crazy bill the eel killer
Ex Member



Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #12 - 03/07/06 at 18:33:13
 
Hello Jim J

If your hum is caused by a ground loop, isolating the ground in the offending piece of gear will get rid of it. A cheater plug is the adaptor that changes a 3 prong grounded plug to fit into a 2 prong receptacle. It simply eliminates the ground wire from the equation.

Bill                  :D
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JDW
Ex Member



Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #13 - 03/07/06 at 18:38:01
 
Thanks Crazy Bill
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JimJ
Ex Member



Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #14 - 03/13/06 at 03:57:29
 
Some updates.

I replaced the RCA cable with one that has good ends on both sides...still noise.

The NAD 3020 integrated amp is wired with a two-pronged AC cord, so I don't see how the ground loop is coming in. Removing the RCA cables between the units kills the noise, and using a cheater plug on the preamp doesn't do anything now.

I would hate to sell this, but it's not looking good unless I can get these gremlins out... Sad
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rmt
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Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #15 - 03/14/06 at 22:24:55
 
[quote author=JimJ  link=1141610739/0#14 date=1142222249]The NAD 3020 integrated amp is wired with a two-pronged AC cord, so I don't see how the ground loop is coming in. Removing the RCA cables between the units kills the noise, and using a cheater plug on the preamp doesn't do anything now.

I would hate to sell this, but it's not looking good unless I can get these gremlins out... Sad
[/quote]

I wonder why you are trying to push a signal from a tube preamp with gain into an integerated amp.  It just sounds like a mismatch from the start. Perhaps the problem stems from the NAD not having a grounding type plug.  Would imdedance mismatch cause problems?  From the NAD site.  Input impedance 11k ohms for the 3020 integrated.  No mention of an amp input just line level inputs for phono, aux, tuner.

I would send that NAD on its way long before I considered selling a CSP.  I just don't see them as being good matches gearwise.
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JimJ
Ex Member



Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #16 - 03/14/06 at 22:41:12
 
[quote author=rmt  link=1141610739/15#15 date=1142375095]

I wonder why you are trying to push a signal from a tube preamp with gain into an integerated amp.  It just sounds like a mismatch from the start. Perhaps the problem stems from the NAD not having a grounding type plug.  Would imdedance mismatch cause problems?  From the NAD site.  Input impedance 11k ohms for the 3020 integrated.  No mention of an amp input just line level inputs for phono, aux, tuner.

I would send that NAD on its way long before I considered selling a CSP.  I just don't see them as being good matches gearwise. [/quote]

Quote:
I know I'm probably worrying unnecessarily, but the actual amps I'm going to be using for this aren't due to come in for about a month or so.


This is just for a temporary setup Smiley

It does have a preamp output and input to bypass the internal pre, though. There's a little U-shaped metal jumper that goes into each center pin when it's functioning like a normal integrated, take the jumper out and there's a seperate preamp and PA in the same box.

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Sam in USA
Ex Member



Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #17 - 03/14/06 at 22:47:18
 
I have no problem driving my HK receiver that has 200mV input sensitivity. But the input impadeance is also fairly high at 47K
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rmt
Ex Member



Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #18 - 03/14/06 at 23:03:20
 
So I tested my comment about a gain tube preamp and an integrated amplifier.  I experimented with driving my Sony reciever with the CSP.  I heard no hum whatsoever through the Sony amp being driven by the CSP using Klipsch 96db speakers.  The Sony does have a grounding plug.  

I had to turn the CSP all the way to 10 to get much out of the Sony amp.  I cannot explain that.  It seems that the Sony is louder w/o the CSP.  Anyway it did improve the sound. No hum though.

My CSP and 2 watt Select blow away my 100watt Sony.  Strange how that it is.  Good luck with your hum problem, I have no answers.  I know you will solve it and be very happy combining it with your monoblocks?
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« Last Edit: 03/14/06 at 23:04:10 by rmt »  
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Sam in USA
Ex Member



Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #19 - 03/14/06 at 23:07:09
 
He has put it up for sale  :(
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Mr Content
Ex Member



Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #20 - 03/25/06 at 23:30:59
 
I have had hum with my CSP to, I have just lived with it, but since I got the Charlize amp ,which is really dead quiet, not make believe dead quiet, I could not stand it any more. It also eats tubes like they are free. Sit on the shelve making a good dust catcher now. Angry

Mr C
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Joel
Ex Member



Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #21 - 03/26/06 at 17:38:17
 
How about elaborating on that "eating tubes" comment. I thought they were supposed to have long life in the CSP. I'm a little sensitive, had a pinched waist 6922 die in the cathode follower position. Big loss. I'm running in front of a CEX. Had been putting the 6922 in the CSP instead of CEX in hopes of longer life. It boosted both an amazing amount. In the CSP it really helped the F1 with some tube life.
Thanks-
Joel
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Mr Content
Ex Member



Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #22 - 03/27/06 at 05:44:58
 
No worries Joel. The tubes that shipped with the CSP lasted 61 days. The rectifyer died in the morning, and the 6922's by the evening. I spent about $90 on a good recifyer in the hopes that it would last, but alas it only lasted about 4 months.  I need another 3 6922's, so I just parked it. Gathers dust nicely. Had it cheched out by a friend, and he couldn't see why it was eating tubes so much. BTW, I left it on 24/7 as recommended. O well. Sad

Mr C
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gnat leader
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Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #23 - 03/29/06 at 19:27:02
 
I don't leave mine on 24/7. I have no problems with hum in either my CSP or TABOO using the 96db HDT speakers. I use 6n1P's in the CSP and have been using the same (cryo treated) tubes for a year so far.  I use tj 274B rectifiers in both CSP and TABOO and have been using them for multiple years (had used one of them in the CS I had before moving to the TABOO).
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« Last Edit: 03/29/06 at 19:28:06 by Brad »  
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Mr Content
Ex Member



Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #24 - 03/30/06 at 03:53:59
 
[quote author=gnat leader  link=1141610739/15#23 date=1143660422]I don't leave mine on 24/7. I have no problems with hum in either my CSP or TABOO using the 96db HDT speakers. I use 6n1P's in the CSP and have been using the same (cryo treated) tubes for a year so far.  I use tj 274B rectifiers in both CSP and TABOO and have been using them for multiple years (had used one of them in the CS I had before moving to the TABOO). [/quote]

Thanks for the info Brad, Me thinks that there is something seriuosly wrong with my unit. It may have to take the flight back to the good old US of A

Mr C
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veryoldcat
Ex Member



Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #25 - 03/30/06 at 06:22:42
 
Hi Nigel,

There's gotta be something fishy going on the inside of your CSP. I've had mine on 24/7 since I got it in October of 2004 w/o difficulty.

I had one particular rectifier fail, but it had flashed purple since the very first hour of service (bad vacuum integrity, apparently). My current rectifier has been going constantly since last October.

I've had the same BB 6dj8's running constantly since November of 2004, 24/7, also with no difficulty. Everything fresh as a daisy.

Sorry about having to ship stuff to Decware from Oz. Shipping's gotta hurt from there, let alone the down time.

Karl
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Mr Content
Ex Member



Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #26 - 03/30/06 at 07:23:58
 
Hi Karl, thanks. Down time is no worry, I dont use it now anyway. I have to think if the postage is worth it or I just leave it in the cupboard. Dont know ???

Mr C
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Doug_C.
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Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #27 - 04/04/06 at 21:41:12
 
I purchased a CSP about a month ago and initially had a bad hum. After being powered up for several hours the hum was reduced by about 1/2 but still anoying. May have been a tube? I have had tubes hum initially only to settle down after being powered up for a while.

In an effort to eliminate the remaining hum I tried everything mentioned by others here. The hum was from both speakers and was noticable from the listening position. With everything Off except the CSP and Select Amp the hum level was the same regardless of where the CSP volume knob was set. Setting the volume down on the Select would reduce the audible hum. After a couple days this was frustrating!

The CSP was sitting off to the side of my main rack as a temporary hook-up until I could move the other equipment around to make a permanent space for it. When I did finally get time to move things around I turned everything on and No Hum, None. I have no idea what changed because the electrical connections were all the same.

In any event I'm now very very pleased with the CSP / Select / Klipsch combo that I have. I debated for a long time about the CSP. I really liked my system without it and did not think it would make a $650.00 improvement. Well in my case it's worth every penny. The added detail pulled out by the CSP is really amazing.

Doug C
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Mr Content
Ex Member



Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #28 - 04/05/06 at 06:44:10
 
Well Doug, maybe I shoul try mine somewhere else. But hang on mine doesn't hum, its just always hungry.  :'(

Mr C
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chrish
Ex Member



Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #29 - 04/05/06 at 12:30:48
 
Hello Mr. C

I had initial problems with my CSP being hungry.  Trying to find quiet NOS tubes was not easy.  Also, a rectifier was lost due to a powering up, or maybe it was down, something that I did screwy or out of sequence.  After trying two pairs of noisy Bugle Boys, I found some Matsushita 6922s that were quiet and I like the sound.  Also, in the front position, a bugle boy that was quiet, developed a hum in one channel.  A humble Ei 6DJ8 sounds good there and is quiet. From what I've read the 6922/6DJ8 type were not made for audio originally so that noise was not a parameter that was looked at closely when it was developed. The last time that I tried the stock JJ 6922 tubes, IIRC, one or more were noisy.  I went back and reread this paragraph of the CSP manual…..

Remember, with any tube product, it is WISE to have a complete set of spare tubes on hand. Anytime there is a problem with tube gear it is 9 out of 10 times a tube. If you have spare tubes you can easily trouble shoot it yourself. While not common, tubes can go bad for no reason, or get noisy—especially N.O.S. tubes. Be careful when spending tons of money on N.O.S. tubes that originally only cost a few dollars when they were new.

All the best

CH
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selmerdave
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Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #30 - 04/05/06 at 12:41:16
 
[quote author=chrish  link=1141610739/15#29 date=1144236648]From what I've read the 6922/6DJ8 type were not made for audio originally so that noise was not a parameter that was looked at closely when it was developed. [/quote]

I know they're often used in oscilloscopes, but the Marantz Model 9 was also developed around them around the time they were introduced, and it's fair to say that it's been one of the most popular tubes for hifi since, period.  I doubt that would be the case if chronic noise problems were common.  FWIW none of mine are anything but dead silent.

Dave
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Mr Content
Ex Member



Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #31 - 04/05/06 at 13:09:19
 
[quote author=chrish  link=1141610739/15#29 date=1144236648]Hello Mr. C

I had initial problems with my CSP being hungry.  Trying to find quiet NOS tubes was not easy.  Also, a rectifier was lost due to a powering up, or maybe it was down, something that I did screwy or out of sequence.  After trying two pairs of noisy Bugle Boys, I found some Matsushita 6922s that were quiet and I like the sound.  Also, in the front position, a bugle boy that was quiet, developed a hum in one channel.  A humble Ei 6DJ8 sounds good there and is quiet. From what I've read the 6922/6DJ8 type were not made for audio originally so that noise was not a parameter that was looked at closely when it was developed. The last time that I tried the stock JJ 6922 tubes, IIRC, one or more were noisy.  I went back and reread this paragraph of the CSP manual…..

Remember, with any tube product, it is WISE to have a complete set of spare tubes on hand. Anytime there is a problem with tube gear it is 9 out of 10 times a tube. If you have spare tubes you can easily trouble shoot it yourself. While not common, tubes can go bad for no reason, or get noisy—especially N.O.S. tubes. Be careful when spending tons of money on N.O.S. tubes that originally only cost a few dollars when they were new.

All the best

CH
[/quote]

Hmmm... Interesting. I an just not sure what up with mine. It has gone thru 9 tubes in 3 months, a bit out of the ordanary I would say. But thanks for your observations. Part of the problem now is that I am happy with the very short signal path that I have. I have the IC's soldered straight to the board of the Charlize, and I am not sure if I want to intrduce another component, and set of IC's back into my system. Frankly I just dont know what to do about it. Cry

Mr C
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« Last Edit: 04/05/06 at 13:10:13 by barfind »  
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chrish
Ex Member



Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #32 - 04/05/06 at 17:42:39
 
Hello Dave

I am certainly no tube expert and had origianlly hesitated to even say anything with all of the knowledgeable folks around here.  I read that on the Brent Jesse website, audiotubes.com - which does not mean it is true, as we all know!

My experiance with the noisy tubes was with one of the well known tube sellers (NOT Brent Jesse).  I was trying to buy used tested for noise and microphonics 6DJ8s.  After sveral attempts and exchages we both gave up on it.  It was a money issue with me not wanting to spend the big money on tubes.  After postage back and forth a few times, NOS would have cost the same!

Regards
Chris
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chrish
Ex Member



Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #33 - 04/05/06 at 17:48:11
 
Mr C

If Charlize does it for you that way...though I would be curious if the CSP would enhance her sweet voice.  I know with the Taboo the CSP is a must have.  

BTW, I've spent many a late night with Charlize's sister Monica.

Regards
Chris
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selmerdave
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Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #34 - 04/06/06 at 00:21:32
 
Chris,

Please make no mistake, I am NOT claiming to be particularly knowledgeable, nor was I intending to "shoot down" your comments.  I think the tone of my response left a little to be desired.  I find it hard to believe given the history that the 6dj8 is an inherently noisy tube, but that may well be the result of my lack of knowledge.  Sorry to hear about your experience, one of the drags about tubes.

Dave
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crazy bill the eel killer
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Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #35 - 04/06/06 at 01:38:50
 
Hey guys,

http://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/138/6/6922.pdf

Notice the part about it being designed as a LOW NOISE tube.

Cheers,                        Bill                :D
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chrish
Ex Member



Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #36 - 04/06/06 at 01:53:55
 
No problem Dave.  I did not take your comment as a shoot down.  

I did not want to come across like I had the only right opinion about the 6DJ8.  Being only a year into this tube thing my knowledge is quite humble.  

Funny this came up here, Audio Asylum (tubes/DIY) has a 6DJ8 discussion going on now. Interesting things they are. I don't know exactly how they work, but my tube shelf is filling up!

Best Regards
Chris
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Mr Content
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Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #37 - 04/06/06 at 06:10:44
 
[quote author=chrish  link=1141610739/30#33 date=1144255691]Mr C

If Charlize does it for you that way...though I would be curious if the CSP would enhance her sweet voice.  I know with the Taboo the CSP is a must have.  

BTW, I've spent many a late night with Charlize's sister Monica.

Regards
Chris   [/quote]

Chris, I used the CSP with the Charlize only very breifly. It certainly sounded OK, but the Charlize was only about 10 hours old when the CSP becided it wanted to rest again. Since then Charlize has got sweeter and sweeter, and I fear it has given the CSP its marching orders  :P

Mr C
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Mr Content
Ex Member



Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #38 - 04/16/06 at 10:18:30
 
Hey my CSP doesn't hum, doesn't eat tubes, doesn't even make a noise. I put some new tubes in and "nothing", "nudder".
All the tubes light up but there  ain't no sound. Bummer , I wanted to try this DAC out to, but it needs a pre . This maybe the first tube anchor Cry  :'(

Mr C
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rayd
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Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #39 - 04/16/06 at 13:08:01
 
Mr. C, sorry to hear that. I haven't experienced the hum problem. Have you thought about sending it to Steve? I just sent my CSP in for him to take a look at it. Not sure what's going on with it but it sure is sounding a bit strange (sound distorts and soundstage is collapsed). I'm hoping it's something minor. My source output voltage did change so I'm having Steve adjust the pre for me.

- Ray
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« Last Edit: 04/17/06 at 12:57:24 by rayd »  
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9anda1f
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Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #40 - 04/17/06 at 03:51:14
 
Mr C:  A few general words from a relative newby to valve amplification, Decware, and these forums.  IMHO (I finally figured out what that meant!), Steve Deckert has built an oasis of information and community around his high quality designs and cost effective products.  The Decware website alone is a shining jewel.  The Decware forums are the best thought-out, user friendly, and information packed (not to mention highly entertaining) meeting place I've ever seen on the web.  Steve encourages the exchange of information and ideas throughout his website (just his white papers alone are worth their weight), these forums, and almost unbelievably, Steve encourages "we the customer" to call him on the phone, anytime, for assistance with his products!  This is unheard of anywhere else.

I feel as if I've found a home.  I spend significant time reading these forums, researching Steve's white papers, and occasionally, posting a question.  Steve has provided us with an electronic community, the likes of which I've never found "out there in the world".  

To get to my point, although I can certainly understand your frustration with the CSP, I am having some trouble understanding why you haven't taken advantage of Steve's generosity and committment by working with him through the multiple tools he's provided and placed at our disposal.  Call him up!  I'm confident that he and all of Decware will work with you to troubleshoot your CSP at home, or arrange with you to have it examined and repaired at the factory.  

Why am I so confident?  Like I said, I've been reading these forums.  There are uncountable instances of similar assistance, and ultimately satisfactory solutions.  I perceive community here.  There's a reason for that.  A community like this doesn't "just happen".  There is an underlying understanding that something special is happening here.  There is a huge expertise, both within Decware and within the Decware Forum community as a whole.  

Your comments seem to indicate that due to a hardware failure of some sort, your CSP has become a "tube anchor".  But we all know that hardware fails (but why does software merely require maintenance???).  Persistence, assistance, and enlightenment will solve any hardware problem.  All are available from Steve and from these forums.  Have hope.  We'll all chip in, Steve included, to help you get your CSP back into shape.  

Happy Easter!   Smiley

9anda1f
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Rap
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Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #41 - 04/17/06 at 12:52:48
 
Mr C, no farting in the direction of the punch bowl Lips Sealed Wink
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chrish
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Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #42 - 04/17/06 at 13:43:22
 
Mr C, Fuse?
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Giorgino
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Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #43 - 04/17/06 at 22:18:45
 
Mr C - I understand and sympathise with your plight. I lve in the UK and the hassle and cost involved in sending a broken item transatlantic and back is a real pain. However, I can say that Steve's technical support and guarantee is excellent. The transformer of my ZSLA1 went into meltdown and I sent the item back and it was turned around and back on my door step within a very short time. I don't remember the actual details but it was something like 10 - 14 days. He must have replaced my trannie and reparcelled within a day or 2. I encourage you to call him and talk you through some trouble shooting procedures first.

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Mr Content
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Re: CSP owners: amount of hum?
Reply #44 - 04/18/06 at 06:07:48
 
Well Guys, what can I say? Thanks for thinking of me.  ;D I am not worried about this though. I know the CSP has a  "Lifetime" warrenty, so I have a bit of time up my sleeve. I have no doutb Steve will make  good with it, and I would be a fool to think anything else.   Smiley I was only using these forums like every one else, to report what going on with our gear. If we are having trouble with a component this is always the best place to come Cheesy I will ring Steve, but I may as well have a look inside and see if I can see anything.
Again thanks  :D

Mr C
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