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To say the least, the anticipation is building ... (Read 16818 times)
Caintuck Randy
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To say the least, the anticipation is building ...
02/08/06 at 19:07:43
 
The gent I share an office with at work is putting the finishing touches on the last project on his plate before he starts on my SO Imperials .....

A couple of nights ago, we hauled the 10 sheets of good quality 3/4" oak plywood that will be needed for the project into his woodshop.

The Imperials should fit very nicely in my listening room, exactly filling up the spaces between the edges of the center curtain and the side walls.





Of course, I will have to do away with my chic $12.00 designer floor lamps .....

I expect that the Imperials will work extremely well with the Parker Audio Behemoths or The Horns (as in the photo).

Based on what I heard at the most recent DecFest, this will be the end of my audio journey ..... and I want to offer in advance my heartfelt gratitude to Steve Deckert and Bob (Zygi) for their help and inspiration in making these wonderful speakers available to the readers of this forum ..... Smiley

Additional photos and comments to follow, as available .....

Randy

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gexter
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #1 - 02/08/06 at 20:14:38
 
Er ? huh? the what the plans are availiable and I missed them?
gimme gimmie.

On another note, congratulations and that sounds awsome.
I can hardly wait for your impression of the beasts.
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Caintuck Randy
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #2 - 02/08/06 at 20:43:20
 
Howdy gexter,

The "official plans" are not available yet.

The plans that I have are from this thread :

http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=Imperial;action=display;num=1...

My friend says that he can build them from these plans, and a phone call or two to Steve or Bob ..... Smiley

Take care,

Randy
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« Last Edit: 02/08/06 at 20:43:55 by Randy in Caintuck »  
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DirtDawg
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #3 - 02/08/06 at 21:40:51
 
[quote author=Caintuck Randy  link=1139429263/0#0 date=1139425663]The gent I share an office with .......

Additional photos and comments to follow, as available .....

Randy

[/quote]




"The gent I share an office with at work is putting the finishing touches on the last project on his plate before he starts on my SO Imperials .....  "

This is awesome! Cool ..... the way it should be. Right now I'm looking forward to many detailed reports of how totally kicked you are able to keep your ..... well you told us all how bad these latest big boys from Steve are supposed to be and how they exceded your expectations ..... you said they sounded ..... I can only remember I needed a tissue ..... for my forehead, afterwards.

"A couple of nights ago, we hauled the 10 sheets of good quality 3/4" oak plywood that will be needed for the project into his woodshop."

Here I'm worried that you should have gotten 2 extras ..... just in case your buddy gets a little off on a cut or you can think of any way to improve the rigidity of ..... if you think you need 10, you should get 11 or 12 to be sure ..... worst case is you build a super solid base for them ..... or a better bass trap to address some of the ..... uhmm ..... anyway .....

"The Imperials should fit very nicely in my listening room, exactly filling up the spaces between the edges of the center curtain and the side walls."

For some reason I thought you were going to lay them down ..... as instructed ..... the same way Steve had his in the pix ..... I guess I'm just not considering all the options available when you have all the bass you could ever ..... the mouths go down right? ..... so you will be able to make some nice bass traps for the ceiling junctions ..... but, wait .....  you're out of plywood .....





"Of course, I will have to do away with my chic $12.00 designer floor lamps .....  "

Negative! Bad idea! The only problem with the lighting scheme is that the poles are too long ..... you just need to have the center five feet of extension removed by the same, really handy, buddy from work. The lamps will create interesting, romantic shadows and intense, illustrative highlights that spill out mysteriously across your new ..... just don't throw them out, yet!

"I expect that the Imperials will work extremely well with the Parker Audio Behemoths or The Horns (as in the photo)."

..... or just about any other likely prospects you can think of in the future as you continue to explore .....

"Based on what I heard at the most recent DecFest, this will be the end of my audio journey ..... and I want to offer in advance my heartfelt gratitude to Steve Deckert and Bob (Zygi) for their help and inspiration in making these wonderful speakers available to the readers of this forum .....  "

Now, see ..... this P155E5 me right off! You can't just leave! You're making it sound like this is "iADIOS, AMIGOS!", but it can't be. This place can't be without it's demi/semi/hemi/god any more than I could go all week without ..... Randy, I just spotted this ship ..... I can't quite catch up, yet and I've even had trouble keeping it above the horizon line at times, but we ..... I ..... I still need your inspired and well traveled guidance along with your understanding humor, and uplifting and witty distractions at times to offset the natural course of entropy that all my endeavors seem to push my mind towards, lately .....

"Additional photos and comments to follow, as available .....

Randy"


Say you're not going away, Randy! I would like to see the "Randy's Imperials" thread become one of those that never quite dies .....

Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley
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« Last Edit: 02/08/06 at 21:42:34 by DirtDawg »  
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Doorman
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #4 - 02/08/06 at 22:05:49
 
I'm looking, but I can't seem to find the "green with envy" smilie Sad. Alas, the most important ingredient, ie: the room is missing in my set-up. We'll be anxiously awaiting pics etc, Randy!
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bassboy
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #5 - 02/08/06 at 22:16:16
 
This arrangement is going to look magnificent.  But two imperials in a room that size is kind of like killing mice with dynamite.  

One imperial will be plenty loud enough to disintigrate your plaster, especially with correct room placement, which may not be where you think, especially considering the small size of the room.  Without any room treatments the response is likely to be wildly erratic throughout the room.

Adding an additional imperial will likely not help and may very well hurt performance.  At best it will be a bit louder which you will find you really don't need, at worst quite a bit quieter with even worse frequency response.  Of course, all considerations could equal each other out and be perfect, but I doubt it.

The dawg is right, you would probably be further ahead with one imperial and three basstraps.  

Unless of course you positioned both mouths together, effectively doubling mouth area and potentially going much lower.

It took me 60 hours of listening to position my one imperial to my satisfaction, it makes a lot more difference than you might think.

Don't get me wrong, even if things go very wrong it's still going to be pretty great.

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Caintuck Randy
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #6 - 02/08/06 at 22:21:51
 
[quote author=DirtDawg  link=1139429263/0#3 date=1139434851]


"A couple of nights ago, we hauled the 10 sheets of good quality 3/4" oak plywood that will be needed for the project into his woodshop."

Here I'm worried that you should have gotten 2 extras ..... just in case your buddy gets a little off on a cut or you can think of any way to improve the rigidity of ..... if you think you need 10, you should get 11 or 12 to be sure ..... worst case is you build a super solid base for them ..... or a better bass trap to address some of the ..... uhmm ..... anyway .....

"The Imperials should fit very nicely in my listening room, exactly filling up the spaces between the edges of the center curtain and the side walls."

For some reason I thought you were going to lay them down ..... as instructed ..... the same way Steve had his in the pix ..... I guess I'm just not considering all the options available when you have all the bass you could ever ..... the mouths go down right? ..... so you will be able to make some nice bass traps for the ceiling junctions ..... but, wait .....  you're out of plywood .....





"Of course, I will have to do away with my chic $12.00 designer floor lamps .....  "

Negative! Bad idea! The only problem with the lighting scheme is that the poles are too long ..... you just need to have the center five feet of extension removed by the same, really handy, buddy from work. The lamps will create interesting, romantic shadows and intense, illustrative highlights that spill out mysteriously across your new ..... just don't throw them out, yet!

"I expect that the Imperials will work extremely well with the Parker Audio Behemoths or The Horns (as in the photo)."

..... or just about any other likely prospects you can think of in the future as you continue to explore .....

"Based on what I heard at the most recent DecFest, this will be the end of my audio journey ..... and I want to offer in advance my heartfelt gratitude to Steve Deckert and Bob (Zygi) for their help and inspiration in making these wonderful speakers available to the readers of this forum .....  "

Now, see ..... this P155E5 me right off! You can't just leave! You're making it sound like this is "iADIOS, AMIGOS!", but it can't be. This place can't be without it's demi/semi/hemi/god any more than I could go all week without ..... Randy, I just spotted this ship ..... I can't quite catch up, yet and I've even had trouble keeping it above the horizon line at times, but we ..... I ..... I still need your inspired and well traveled guidance along with your understanding humor, and uplifting and witty distractions at times to offset the natural course of entropy that all my endeavors seem to push my mind towards, lately .....

"Additional photos and comments to follow, as available .....

Randy"


Say you're not going away, Randy! I would like to see the "Randy's Imperials" thread become one of those that never quite dies .....

Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley
[/quote]


Howdy DD,

As to the number of sheets of plywood, you are probably right ..... if my buddy Mike slips with the saw, we're probably in trouble.  Fortunately, he's not a big drinker, so I'm hoping for a "steady hand" with the saw ..... Roll Eyes

Concerning my chic pole lamps ..... I was actually thinking of removing the poles and hanging the remainder from the ceiling.  Your thoughts about the "interesting, romantic shadows and intense, illustrative highlights that spill out mysteriously" are pretty much on the mark as to the effect I am currently getting ..... although since 99% of my listening is done "solo", the romantic part is pretty much wasted ..... ???

"You can't just leave! You're making it sound like this is "ADIOS, AMIGOS!""

Very interesting ..... my buddy Mike said the same thing when he read my post ..... but, I can assure you that the readers of this forum will not be getting rid of me quite that easily .....

The comment about my "audio journey" is simply referring to my quest for new equipment.  Truthfully, I haven't made any serious changes to my system in a long time and I am deliriously happy with the sound I am getting at present.  However, the SO Imperials are really something special and I sincerely believe that they will be the icing on the cake.  The fortunate few who heard the Imperial / Crusader combo at the 2005 DecFest know what I'm talking about ..... and after my "Imperial Experience", there is no turning back .....

I'm afraid the forum readers will be stuck with me for a while longer .....

Best wishes,

Randy
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Caintuck Randy
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #7 - 02/08/06 at 22:29:53
 
[quote author=bassboy  link=1139429263/0#5 date=1139436976]This arrangement is going to look magnificent.  But two imperials in a room that size is kind of like killing mice with dynamite.  

One imperial will be plenty loud enough to disintigrate your plaster, especially with correct room placement, which may not be where you think, especially considering the small size of the room.  Without any room treatments the response is likely to be wildly erratic throughout the room.

Adding an additional imperial will likely not help and may very well hurt performance.  At best it will be a bit louder which you will find you really don't need, at worst quite a bit quieter with even worse frequency response.  Of course, all considerations could equal each other out and be perfect, but I doubt it.

The dawg is right, you would probably be further ahead with one imperial and three basstraps.  

Unless of course you positioned both mouths together, effectively doubling mouth area and potentially going much lower.

It took me 60 hours of listening to position my one imperial to my satisfaction, it makes a lot more difference than you might think.

Don't get me wrong, even if things go very wrong it's still going to be pretty great.

[/quote]


Howdy bassboy,

The room is 16' x 26'.  The plan is to run the Imperials in parallel with the main speakers from a single Decware Select amplifier ..... as I heard at the DecFest.

You might very well be right about the overkill issue ..... but I will have the option of experimenting with placement and number of Imperial cabinets.  I am one of those "symetrically balanced" kind of people who like things in matched pairs ..... so I really like the idea of two cabinets.  If you are correct, I might end up with only one of them connected to the amp ..... ???

Since you have been living with the Imperial, your input is valued and very much appreciated ..... Smiley

Regards,

Randy
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bassboy
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #8 - 02/08/06 at 22:44:05
 
If you are open to experimenting with speaker placement AND listening position placement, and you sit down to listen to music you will find a spot that will amaze you.

But I would start listening with only one, then add the other later.

I was dead serious about the plaster though.  If you do have plaster you might as well start ripping it out now and put in drywall with extra screws, as it is very annoying hearing it vibrating on the wall frame boards.
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boydon_lepasci
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #9 - 02/09/06 at 01:27:36
 
Some of what bassboy says will apply to subs in general, but is he actually referring to a Sub Only Imperial with this amp?

SE84CS - Zen Triode amp - Select Version. 2 watts x 2 SET

Flexing your plaster with that would be impressive.
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Caintuck Randy
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #10 - 02/09/06 at 02:09:47
 
Howdy boydon_lepasci,

At the 2005 DecFest, we had a pair of 95 db efficient 2 ohm Parker Audio Crusaders wired to a single Zen Select in parallel with the SO Imperials in Steve's garage / listening room.  I'm not sure what the actual dimensions of the room were, but the musical presentation was absolutely mindboggling.  It wasn't because of the SPLs (which were more than adequate) ..... but more the size of the soundstage and the feeling of the "recorded space" that was evident in a way I have NEVER before experienced.  The front wall, side walls and ceiling of the room were simply removed from the equation.

I don't know any other way to explain it ..... but the whole room felt like it was "breathing" ..... 8)

The bass instruments weren't trouser flapping and tooth rattling like you experience with a cheap subwoofer or cheesy home theater system ..... they were just present and realistic and effortless.  

Steve made the observation that the Imperials give the music "a place to go" ..... ???

I don't pretend to know exactly what is taking place, but I can understand what all the fuss is about among the fans of large horn loaded speakers ..... there is nothing quite like it.

Since I'm not much into head banger music, my reason for wanting the Imperials is to impart a sense of realism to acoustic blues and small ensemble jazz ..... and I have a feeling that I will get exactly what I'm looking for ..... and then some ..... Smiley

Of course, it's also possible that I might discover just how good a few other musical genres can sound once these beauties are part of the system .....

Randy
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« Last Edit: 02/09/06 at 02:14:12 by Randy in Caintuck »  
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gexter
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #11 - 02/09/06 at 04:49:01
 
thanks Randy. I do have that page printed out but found a couple dimension unclear.
But since they are so close to Steves Imperial I used those. but If they are exact or not I have no idea.
I usually draft up scaled plans for any hopeful project but I would have to fold the heavy paper more than once to store those puppies.

I have made a version of one awhile back that seemed to work out but since I am always experimenting it underwent changes and I wish now I never did.

If I build a full size wood one I am kinda worried that I will have the problems that Dank has had. So I am holding out for exact science.

Thanks Randy,
I look forward to your report on what a couple watts can do with a great design.

Gex
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teepeeworks
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #12 - 02/09/06 at 04:54:23
 
[quote author=Caintuck Randy  link=1139429263/0#10 date=1139450987]

Steve made the observation that the Imperials give the music "a place to go" ..... ???



Randy [/quote]


I have thought about this for awhile now. Perhaps the massive wavefronts are basically "exciting" the air molecules and allowing them to conduct the mids/highs better. That or they allow the first passing of the signal, but impede a reflection, much like a diffusor but the bass air "absorbs" the reflection because it is moving as well. Wonder what hooking the sub 180 deg. out of phase would do to the soundstage when you observed this "widening" effect?  

Take care,

Corey
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gexter
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #13 - 02/09/06 at 05:00:17
 
Corey whenever I see a post like yours that Zen word pops into my head and these lttle zen lights are going on one by one.
damn!
You guys might make an audiophile of me yet.
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J_Rock
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #14 - 02/09/06 at 06:03:34
 
EXCELLENT THREAD!

[quote author=bassboy  link=1139429263/0#5 date=1139436976]This arrangement is going to look magnificent.  But two imperials in a room that size is kind of like killing mice with dynamite.  
[/quote]


Have you actually tried killing mice with Dynamite?  Cause if you haven't I suggest you do at least once!

Cheesy

But in all seriousness, I am going to have to demand this thread be kept alive forever.
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60ndown
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #15 - 02/09/06 at 15:15:17
 
i would wait till steve releases the ACTUAL plans for the so imp. it would be a p.i.t.a. to cut a sexy enclosure to pieces because of a small overlooked placement of ply? anyone who is anyone knows the importance of patience?
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gexter
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #16 - 02/09/06 at 16:55:25
 
Have to agree with 60.

thats also an awful large amount of wood and time to end up it not working the way it should.
why risk it?

Thats the major reason I would build a std Imperial sub right now without the exact Imp SO plans
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bassboy
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #17 - 02/09/06 at 17:09:17
 
Boydon - my comments are based on my own experience with my imperial, which is similar but still quite different than the SO.  In case you didn't see my post in dank's thread here is a brief description.

Mine was originally built from 1956 plans but modified to make construction much easier, built mainly of SOLID 2" doors with no bracing anywhere, although even with the huge panels it might still help.  All internal dimensions are kept exactly to original specs.  

Not happy with frequency response, I did a lot of research and decided, as Steve did, to change the design to front loaded.  All I did to change it was move the driver panel back to close the internal compression chamber and cover the front.

2 10's use the 8 or 9 foot chamber in an infinite baffle situation, as they call for a sealed box of only 1.3 cubes each.  This REDUCES the sensitivity of the drivers from a rated 94 by probably 3 db less.  It does, however, promote low frequency extension and response is still pretty even.

I do not utilize any type of slot in the front, making my design very similar to most commercial units.  

The amp I use is solid state garbage, 200 watts total peak.  I have never used more than 100 watts peak, and at this volume it is very unpleasant as the room vibrations cause more noise than the bass.  You can actually feel the concrete floor vibrating.

It has been my experience that speaker placement in the room is more important than driver selection, compression chamber size, materials used to make the box, etc.  Especially in an untreated room.  In my opinion, the only thing as important is keeping the horn flare as close as possible to a proven design.

All those factors are certainly important but...

I have tried both a front and a back loaded imperial with different combinations of 2x10", 2x8", 4x8".  The speakers had wildly different specs but the frequency response for each combo was ALMOST EXACTLY THE SAME, all combos rolling off steeply below 40.  (I like 2x10" front loaded the best.)

Those are the results directly in front of the horn mouth.  Coupling to the room provides dramatically different results in which moving the speaker just a few inches completely changes the frequency response in different parts of the room.  The best spot to date for even frequency response and low frequency extension has been with the mouth very close to the corner walls.

All that is a long way of saying no, it is not exactly an imperial SO, no, I am not using a 4 watt amp.  But in my untreated room, with the mouth so close to the wall 4 watts is about the max before the room starts shaking and reducing sound quality.  

A 20hz note at 10 watts total peak does not sound loud at all but rattles the room and especially the wall it fires into like you would not believe.  Not enough to shake the drywall free of the screws but definitely enough to crumble old dry plaster.
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Caintuck Randy
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #18 - 02/09/06 at 17:29:20
 
[quote author=60ndown  link=1139429263/15#15 date=1139498117]i would wait till steve releases the ACTUAL plans for the so imp. it would be a p.i.t.a. to cut a sexy enclosure to pieces because of a small overlooked placement of ply? anyone who is anyone knows the importance of patience? [/quote]

Howdy 60,

I talked to Steve and he said that the plan as it sits will work just fine.  I also have some photos that Zygi took as he was building Tim's (change_out's) pair of SO Imperials and according to Zygi and Tim they work VERY well ..... Smiley

My builder has gone over the plans and photos with a fine tooth comb and is making ACAD drawings for the build.  He works in ACAD all day long and says that the plans and photos make perfect sense to him ..... but he will probably be calling Steve or Zygi to clarify a minor detail or two, as Zygi made a couple of small changes to the original when he built Tim's.

No worries ..... but I appreciate your concerns .....

Randy
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« Last Edit: 02/09/06 at 17:40:28 by Randy in Caintuck »  
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change_out
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #19 - 02/09/06 at 20:04:01
 
Howdy,

Mine work very well indeed. With 1.6 watts / channel you will move "big air". With a 500 watt Bryston I have seen the Parkers deflect ( rock from side to side ) by as much as 1/16-1/8 inch. I did not keep the spl at that pressure long! No dry wall dammage was incured.

If one has not heard the Imperial as it was at the fest, I don't consider myself articulate enough to describe it. I am sure the speaker can output pressure capable of damage to the structure in which they are housed, as much so to the listeners ears.

What ever the risk of damage may be -- it IS managable and should not present an issue with the prudent audiophile. All that said I would not trade the Imperials.Period. This is a great thread!

Tim



   
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« Last Edit: 02/09/06 at 20:04:51 by change_out »  
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gexter
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #20 - 02/09/06 at 20:20:01
 
As soon as I can verify the numbers it goes to draft mode and full scale drawings.

Change_out and Randy your my heros

1.6 watts for nice bass fill, looks like Steve is right on the money...again....

Are you using the Daytons or another driver? the dayton 295-130  ST385-8 15" series II woofer was mentioned
Fs 19
Qts .34
Is that what you went with?

Gex
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Caintuck Randy
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #21 - 02/09/06 at 20:32:39
 
Howdy Gex,

We are both using the Dayton drivers ..... Grin

Take care,

Randy
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boydon_lepasci
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #22 - 02/10/06 at 01:45:22
 
Randy, bassboy and everybody else,

I'm with you all the way on horn designs. I think they're the only way to go if you can get your hands on quality low-power amps. I'm an efficiency freak so I like horns even with the SS amps in my budget. I even run to the "if more is better then too much is just right" side of things when it comes to SPL or HP. Not at the expense of SQ though.

bassboy, I caught your background in the other post after my question on this one. Have you read the Harman paper on sub placement? I think they only tried monopole subs for the entire test and your results seem to indicate a lack of corellation(sp?) for horns. Anybody up for another thread?
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bassboy
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #23 - 02/10/06 at 04:06:44
 
Boydon - I have not seen any info on sub placement and any info you have would be a great topic for a new thread.  

Tim, please tell me what kind of frequency response you are getting, in particular, where low frequency starts to roll off.  I have guessed 40 is as low as it is likely to go with -3db at about 35.  I would love to be proven wrong, I would definitely buy new, lower fs subs.  As far as I know you may have the only pro-built SO's so I'm sure everyone would like to know.

I'll also be waiting for Randy's answer to the same question.  How long is that going to take, anyway?  Anyone else measured imperial output?
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Caintuck Randy
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #24 - 02/10/06 at 14:10:35
 
[quote author=bassboy  link=1139429263/15#23 date=1139544404]

I'll also be waiting for Randy's answer to the same question.  How long is that going to take, anyway?  Anyone else measured imperial output? [/quote]

As I mentioned to Tim in another thread, the friend who is building my Imperials is a "weekend warrior" when it comes to his woodworking ..... because he has a real job and a family to consider.  But, I have seen his work and he has a really nice wood shop.  He is also a detail freak and a perfectionist.

He's finishing up another project that should be done soon and estimates that the Imperials will be ready in four to five weeks ... I probably should have named this thread "The anticipation is killing me" ..... ???

Randy
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« Last Edit: 02/10/06 at 14:10:59 by Randy in Caintuck »  
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Steve Deckert
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If the 1st watt
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #25 - 02/10/06 at 15:53:23
 
[quote author=J_Rock  link=1139429263/0#14 date=1139465014]EXCELLENT THREAD!



Have you actually tried killing mice with Dynamite?  Cause if you haven't I suggest you do at least once!

Cheesy

But in all seriousness, I am going to have to demand this thread be kept alive forever. [/quote]


That just reminded me of one of my first imperial experiences.  I had a pair in a single car garage (door open) with a large crack in the concrete floor (can't remember how that happened) and after doing some high SPL tests of low frequencies, Paul and I got to watch a mouse crawl up out of the crack - stagger around and die only a few inches from where he appeared.  We knew exactly what killed him.

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Steve Deckert
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #26 - 02/10/06 at 16:02:53
 
[quote author=bassboy  link=1139429263/15#23 date=1139544404]Boydon - I have not seen any info on sub placement and any info you have would be a great topic for a new thread.  

Tim, please tell me what kind of frequency response you are getting, in particular, where low frequency starts to roll off.  I have guessed 40 is as low as it is likely to go with -3db at about 35.  I would love to be proven wrong, I would definitely buy new, lower fs subs.  As far as I know you may have the only pro-built SO's so I'm sure everyone would like to know.

I'll also be waiting for Randy's answer to the same question.  How long is that going to take, anyway?  Anyone else measured imperial output? [/quote]


At the fest, I did a sine wave sweep on the Imperial SO's so that those who attended could hear a true 20 cycle note.  There was no attenuation as the frequency dropped from 100 to 20Hz.

Also, a note about the plans linked to earlier in this thread.  The color picture posted is low res to prevent people from accurately building a pair.  I have a very high resolution grey scale image of the same thing that I have been e-mailing to those persons wanting to build a pair.  I remember sending one to Randy, but that doesn't mean he got it.  Make sure Randy that you have the right plans.


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bassboy
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #27 - 02/10/06 at 16:20:01
 
That's the word from the man himself, I obviously need new, lower fs subs.
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Steve Deckert
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #28 - 02/10/06 at 16:28:06
 
Recalling the incident with the mouse I started remembering all kinds of fun things that happened during my first couple years with Imperials out in that garage.  Paul and I tried every 15 inch driver we could get our hands on for about a year.  Then the crazy stuff began.  At one point we had two 15 inch drivers compounded and horizontally loaded inside the imperial by using the dead air space in the original 1956 design as a sealed box.  Then we reinstalled a 3rd 15 inch driver in the front.  This was the tightest bass we ever got out of them, I remember it was like being hit by a 2x4.  The best combination I ever came up with was taking a 1 cubic foot sealed cube, placing a 12 inch woofer in it.  Measured response in cube was -3dB at 120Hz.  It had no bass.  Then I screwed a 24 x 24 inch board to the back of the cube and installed the cube face first into the 15 inch opening of the Imperial.  The 24x24 inch board held the cube in place and sealed the opening where the 15 inch driver typically goes.  This turned it into the worlds biggest bandpass box and with the SPL meter set at 100dB at 100Hz it hit 124dB at 28.5Hz.  That btw, is one fricking serious bass note that you bones remember for a long time until the inflamation goes down.  Poor mouse...

One of my favorite things to do was stand out there in that garage and do the low frequency sweep - real slow.  I could make it sound and feel like a helicopter was landing on the roof.  Dave, who lived one block away (353 yards by straight line distance) has a beer stein collection that I could make rattle by doing these sweeps.  I figured out a radius from his house to the garage and estimate this effected about 20 houses nearby.

I liked and still do for some reason to call it "wazoo"ing the imperials.  I'm certain this addiction was irritating to people because once around 2:30 P.M.  I saw a guy running across the road about 2 houses down in his P.J.'s trying to find the little bastard who was making all this noise every day.  I guess he worked 3rd shift.
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #29 - 02/10/06 at 16:43:41
 
And of course thinking about the 12 inch cube trick, we had a local night club call us (we did pro sound at the time) because word got out about the imperials as I started installing them around town.  They had 4 18" subs with 1600 watts driving them and basically had no bass.  The company that designed and installed them blamed it on standing waves and claimed no more bass was possible in the club.  I didn't really like this particular club owner too much so when he called I told him yea, I can make bass in your club hit so low that things could become damaged.  He didn't believe me, so Paul and I heaved the imperial in the truck and drove down there with it.  It still had the 12 inch cube inside.  To power it I took my frequency generator and a harmon kardon 80 watt receiver with one blown channel.  We trucked the cabinet into the club and I did a super slow motion wazoo starting at 150Hz.  When I hit 50 Hz the bass was about the same as what he had before with the 18's.  I paused there and said, well - what do you think of that?  I just had to mess with him.  The wazoo slowly continued down and as predicted, at 28.5Hz I had stopped an entire night club, some 100 people from talking, and most had gotten up from their tables to stand at attention.  Everyone became very uneasy because they had no idea what we were doing, or that we were even there.  The ash trays on some of the tables - no really it was all of the tables - started moving around on the table tops.  I asked the guy if he would agree that this is bass - he did.  Then we turned it off and trucked it right back out the door and left.  A month later we had a contract to design and replace the entire system.
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J_Rock
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #30 - 02/10/06 at 16:51:59
 
Awesome stories!

These are with the original, well your original imperial design?

I may have to build one for absolutely no reason now, I have no room for it, and no cash to pay for it, but I need it.

But honestly, for bass only, SO or normal Imperial?
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bassboy
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #31 - 02/10/06 at 17:35:56
 
J, as far as I know there are three generally accepted ways to load a horn.  Back loaded - (think original imperial), front loaded with no front cavity - (think imperial SO or wo32), and front loaded with a cavity in front - (like Steve's bandpass imperial or the wicked one).  Basically these are ported, sealed and bandpass respectively, and each design should present these characteristics to the throat which will be amplified at the mouth.

So in very general terms you could pick your favorite box design and stick a horn on it.  What you put into a well designed horn should come out very similar on the other end but a lot louder.  Obviously there are other considerations, this is a very general statement.

The SO, because of it's sealed box characteristics is probably the quietest (although not necessarily) but also should possess the highest sound quality.  Even if it does happen to be 2 or 3db quieter than the other designs it is not likely going to matter as listening levels in a room will not likely require more than 5 watts.

By the way, back loaded designs require a lower q driver as they do not have a sealed box to help stability below fs.

You will not likely be disappointed by any design you try, as this is a sub that is hard not to be passionate about in any form.

As I appear to have been very wrong about driver selection, I may be wrong about these statements as well, so if anyone knows better, please correct me.
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« Last Edit: 02/10/06 at 17:55:03 by bassboy »  
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #32 - 02/10/06 at 17:52:46
 
As I will be taking the box apart again to add weight to the speaker cones or completely replacing the subs I now have a question about sand filling the dead spaces in the box.  I have read reports that sitting a sub in a sandbox (not likely for most people) and putting a 100 lb bag of sand on the top can improve response by up to 3 db.  The Dinsdale articles describe a method of using sand filled panels to actually make the box.  And sand filling dead cavities is generally accepted as good practice as long as you can deal with the extra weight.

I want to know if anyone has tried any of these options in an imperial and if it is worth it, as it would certainly be a lot of weight and my box is already well over 300 lb.
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #33 - 02/10/06 at 17:59:08
 
[quote author=Steve Deckert  link=1139429263/15#26 date=1139587373]

Also, a note about the plans linked to earlier in this thread.  The color picture posted is low res to prevent people from accurately building a pair.  I have a very high resolution grey scale image of the same thing that I have been e-mailing to those persons wanting to build a pair.  I remember sending one to Randy, but that doesn't mean he got it.  Make sure Randy that you have the right plans.

[/quote]

Howdy Steve,

Yep ..... I have the plans you sent me.  I was presuming that the low res plans that you posted were identical and didn't really look at them very closely.  My builder will be using the grey scale image for the build ..... Grin

Thanks for the clarification ..... Smiley

Randy
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goldenk10
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #34 - 02/23/06 at 08:57:27
 
I have now read this thread at least three times and have to chime in. My acoustics instructor has all kinds of custom, very fancy folded horns with Lowther DX3's (pictured below). However, he has two Jensen Imperials in his "home office". I have heard his full 5.1 system with the lowthers and a klipsch folded horn corner subwoofer. He says his two imperials blow his horn-loaded 5.1 system out of the water. In his words "Nothing can compare to the Imperials."



I know putting these horns in an imperial thread is tantamount to blasphemy, but I decided to anyway. Grin
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selmerdave
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #35 - 02/23/06 at 13:03:42
 
goldenk, out of curiosity which Imperials does he have?  Is it this one (the basis of the Decware design)?

http://www.hifilit.com/hifilit/Jensen/bulletin1-1.jpg

Or this one (outside of Decware the more popular of the two)?

http://www.hifilit.com/hifilit/Jensen/cabinart-1.jpg


Just curious, thanks.

Dave
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goldenk10
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #36 - 02/23/06 at 20:04:07
 
It is my understanding he has the first of the two, with the rectangular footprint. He also gave the class copies of an original Jensen Speaker building manual (circa 1956) which has both designs detailed in it. So, I have plans for the original imperials (rectangular and corner design), but not Steve's new and improved design.

BTW, the illustrations in the manual are hilarious, very 50's!
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Brian
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #37 - 02/23/06 at 21:09:53
 
The much smaller size makes that corner Imperial  interesting.  I would like to hear from someone who has used one of those.

Edit:
I found this in the classic Imperial thread:
"This is the "cut-corner" home version of the Imperial. Paul and I have built a pair of these also, still have them.  They do not compare to the full size imperial with one 15.  They really do not compare to the new models.  They do not go much lower than 37 Hz, and they sound sloppy compared to these new ones." - Steve D.

So I guess that answers that.
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« Last Edit: 02/24/06 at 23:43:05 by Brian »  
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #38 - 02/23/06 at 21:18:08
 
[quote author=J_Rock  link=1139429263/30#30 date=1139590319]These are with the original, well your original imperial design? [/quote]
Hi J Rock, as I understand it these stories from Steve were with Jensen's design!  Steve did not come out with his improved Imperial until Christmas 2002 when he debuted it here in these forums in the "Hell Those Aren't Big" thread.  
He should be able to kill even more mice now.
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Caintuck Randy
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #39 - 03/07/06 at 17:50:08
 
Happy day ..... Smiley

This Saturday (March 11th) is the day that construction starts on the SO Imperials.  I will be going to the home of the friend who is doing the building to "supervise" ..... Roll Eyes

I'm not sure how long the whole deal will take, since he can only work on them on weekends, but I will keep everyone posted with details and photos ..... Cheesy

Randy

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Brian
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #40 - 03/07/06 at 22:29:47
 
Great news!  I 'm happy for you Randy. Smiley
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DirtDawg
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #41 - 03/07/06 at 23:46:14
 
photos? ..... YES!  :D Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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Caintuck Randy
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #42 - 03/13/06 at 20:49:03
 
Well ..... Saturday went well.  We worked for about 5 hours and got most of the big pieces cut and trimmed to exact specs.  Mike worked a few more hours on Sunday and got a good number of the smaller pieces cut ..... Smiley

We dry clamped the outer pieces of the big box together so that I could do a little drooling ..... I created a lovely puddle ..... Roll Eyes

Mike promises to take photos at each stage of construction when he starts putting them together.

This might be the longest month of my life ..... ???

Randy
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Mr Content
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #43 - 03/14/06 at 07:55:04
 
S.O. are these that good? Seems like a lot of work, but if they are good it always worth it.

Mr C
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gexter
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #44 - 03/14/06 at 13:03:33
 
[quote author=Brian  link=1139429263/30#37 date=1140728993]The much smaller size makes that corner Imperial  interesting.  I would like to hear from someone who has used one of those.

Edit:
I found this in the classic Imperial thread:
"This is the "cut-corner" home version of the Imperial. Paul and I have built a pair of these also, still have them.  They do not compare to the full size imperial with one 15.  They really do not compare to the new models.  They do not go much lower than 37 Hz, and they sound sloppy compared to these new ones." - Steve D.

So I guess that answers that. [/quote]


I missed this entry..
I built a single of the corner Imperial in a SO configuration out of cardboard Some of it was wood and it was heavily reinforced.
they had to be in a corner and and worked well and now is a Imperial without the SO mod and seems louder but not as low but I never did any real testing.
I can't speak for the full range but my first rendition of this design was nice in the right location.
the horn mouth is much smaller and thats where the wall comes in..
I have them laying in the garage under my workbench with the top off and the horn extended by my workbench they sound great and low.

I would build the imperial over most designs in a sub and likely a full range if I had the room.
I have yet to build a full range Imperial design..

the Transflex design is in a attempted redesign at the moment and I am trying to convert it into a corner design about 8 feet tall. It was Johns idea to try it but I have not been happy with what I have come up with yet. I don't want to use all that wood on a bad design.

It ain't no horn but its a Jensen design to pick up where the Imp drops off.. I think its excessive low, but looks like fun..
So far its not looking good enough to follow through with.

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Caintuck Randy
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #45 - 03/14/06 at 13:04:51
 
[quote author=Mr Content  link=1139429263/30#43 date=1142322904]S.O. are these that good? Seems like a lot of work, but if they are good it always worth it.

Mr C [/quote]

Howdy Mr C,

Nice play on words ..... Smiley

And ..... yes, they really are that good.  I have enjoyed the audio hobby for a good number of years, and I can say without hesitation that the SO Imperials add a dimension to the sound that exceeds anything I have ever heard ..... and by a large margin ..... ???

We occasionally hear about a sound system that causes the listening room to "disappear" or that transports us to the recording space.  The combination of the SO Imperials and Parker Audio Crusaders at the last DecFest accomplished both of those things.

Well worth the effort and the wait .....

Randy
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Rap
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #46 - 03/14/06 at 13:50:25
 
How do you plan to drive the S.O´s Randy?

>>mod oop´s reread the thread and found you´re answere Smiley<<
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« Last Edit: 03/14/06 at 13:53:49 by Rap »  
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Caintuck Randy
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #47 - 03/14/06 at 14:57:59
 
[quote author=Rap  link=1139429263/45#46 date=1142344225]How do you plan to drive the S.O´s Randy?

>>mod oop´s reread the thread and found you´re answere Smiley<< [/quote]

Howdy Rap,

As you figured out, I plan to drive the Imperials with the Zen Select, in parallel with my 4 ohm 96 db efficient Parker Audio Behemoths.  I also own a pair of The Horns with the new Fostex 126 drivers.  I'm thinking that either speaker will sound great (but quite different) with the Imperials ..... Smiley

The other option would be to power the Imperials with the 100W plate amp that I currently use to power the Parker Audio Trogs or the HornLine.

I guess an argument could be made for either setup.  Running the Imperials directly from the speaker taps of the Select should preserve any and all low level spatial information in a true stereo configuration.  Of course, the received wisdom indicates that this is not an issue with low frequencies ..... but, I'm not totally convinced of that ..... ???

Using the plate amp to power the Imperials will obviously provide more power and the ability to tailor the volume and crossover frequency, but I'm not really trying to kill any mice ..... so power shouldn't be an issue.  It would be a stereo signal into the plate amp and a summed signal to the Imperials.

It will be easy enough to try both ways, but I would be curious about the thoughts of the forum readers on this topic .....

Randy
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Rap
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #48 - 03/14/06 at 15:18:58
 
Thank´s Randy Smiley

It will look ´funny to see the tiny zen driving those monsters  :) Very impressive  ;D
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gexter
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Re: To say the least, the anticipation is building
Reply #49 - 03/15/06 at 01:44:29
 
I think that the way you plan on running it off the Zen would be great. providing you have the Imps in the right location..
Your room no doubt is already taken care of.

thats not much but its all I got and no doubt already taken care of.
I wish I was you!  :)
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