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Amp to make Dayton's happy (Read 30077 times)
Bob
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Amp to make Dayton's happy
01/17/06 at 22:54:59
 
Ok, so here's the consensus;

Most of us like the Daytons. OK, now....

How about this,  the Dayton 15" series II for $88 from Parts Express (quantity 2). And then do I buy (1) BASH 500 watt plate amp from PE for $228, or for versatility do I get (2) 250 watt amps for slightly more??

Thanks for entertaining a newbee   Roll Eyes

Bob
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HT-EXT
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #1 - 01/18/06 at 10:51:42
 
Welcome BOB. I use the plate amps from MCM. The first is the 350w with remote(part# 50-6282) and the 250w(part# 50-6281A) with much success. They both have more than enough power and easy to adjust. Plus sometimes, if you can wait, the 250w sells for $100 and the 350w for $150 if they are "ON SALE". I have used both of these amps with HWK15(2 DAYTON IIs) for about four or five years with no problems. I am sure there are better amps but of course I am on a budget. I would like to try EP1500 or EP2500 from BEHRINGER to run two HWK15s. That would be sweet to try that much power thru the HWK15. Hope the info helps.  
                             
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #2 - 01/18/06 at 12:21:14
 
Currently $144, and $209 respectively.  Would like to wait till the "sale". But unknown how long that may be. At MCMinone.com, they only show 2 in stock of the 350W amp  :'(.  Still eying the Parts Express plate amps though??

Havn't heard of BEHRINGER. Will search.

Bob
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60ndown
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #3 - 01/18/06 at 12:25:33
 
im a big fan of used gear, lots of used amps on e bay? and i would use 1 amp for both drivers, just to eliminate the posibility or mis matched parts / signal? (power amp and stand alone x over?) i wouldnt fit a plate amp to a h.w. the vibration might de solder everything fairly quickly?
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« Last Edit: 01/18/06 at 12:27:17 by 60ndown »  
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #4 - 01/18/06 at 13:01:25
 
Good thinking about plate amp destruction.
Will peek at Ebay, but slightly worried about USED. ie..blown amps.

Bob
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #5 - 01/18/06 at 13:42:26
 
Did 'advanced search' on Ebay for "sub amp" and excluded the words; car, auto, automotive, mobile. Searched through 221 entries and ALL of them were for cars !!!  >:(

Bob
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HT-EXT
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #6 - 01/18/06 at 13:44:46
 
I agree with 60. My plates amps do not sit close to anything that can be vibrated by the HWK15. BEHRINGER is used mostly for pro-audio and DJ equipment. They could be adapt to work HWK15 with the right crossovers and equalizer. Parts Express has the best deal or price as of now but that is still $128 for 250w plate amp. Rythmik Audio also has a plate amp that looks like the Parts Express amp. If you play the 250w amp at moderate to loud volumes with the HWK15(loaded with two DAYTONS) you will need a cooling fan. I notice the BASH amp is located at O Audio web site and it look very interesting but to get to 500w means alot distortion(THD). The THD at 400w with the BASH seems much better power rating vs the 500w rating. Let me know what you find and the kind of budget you can afford.
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Adrian D.
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #7 - 01/18/06 at 13:55:29
 
well, you might want to try a used pa amp because of at least two reasons : they're EXTREMELY reliable (have lots of protection circuits) and you know when you clip (if you will ever push one that hard). i have a 2*250w pa amp (180$ + 80 $ x-over) and it's more than enough for me. using it with a db10 and a db12 and the power indicators on the amp (showing how much it amplifies) rarely light up during normal listening levels.
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gildcm
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #8 - 01/18/06 at 14:02:17
 
For amps you might want to check out www.zZounds.com

I picked up a b-stock ep2500 for $200. Works great just had rack rash on it. I use it to run my Imperial. You check under the blowouts section of there website under Live Sound/PA they have quite a few amps for sale there.
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J_Rock
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #9 - 01/18/06 at 14:36:15
 
yeah for amps:

www.cheaplights.com (DJ supply kinda place)

www.steelsound.com (live sound stuff.)

http://www.apexjr.com/amps.html  (plate amps and the like.)

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/nonservo_product.htm

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« Last Edit: 01/18/06 at 14:36:30 by j_rock777 »  
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HT-EXT
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #10 - 01/18/06 at 14:38:43
 
Good point about the power indicator Adrian D. I pick up a couple of Velleman mono led power meter kits from Parts Express(part#320-222). These things are cool and work perfect with a subwoofer plate amp. They do not need a power supply and just hook in parallel with mono output of the plate amp. I am unsure of how accurate they are but if your ohms are right I would say they are pretty close. You will be required to do some soldering and know basic electronics. The instructions are easy and if you go with different color leds you can tell the amount power being put out even in a low light room. If you look hard enough you can find them cheaper on the web. Adire Audio has some nice sub amps and you can locate them on the web. Hope this helps.
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« Last Edit: 01/18/06 at 15:41:36 by Joe_Eaton »  
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Sean
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #11 - 01/18/06 at 16:05:34
 
My first HW15 using 2 Dayton series II's was driven by a Keiga KG-5230 plate amp.  Not a bad little unit, but as others have implied, maybe not ideally suited to this application.  Replaced it with a QSC RMX1450, and never looked back.

-Sean
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #12 - 01/18/06 at 20:23:41
 
You guys are cool !

Some very good ideas there. Interesting though, most recommendations for amps are not what I would call traditional. Lots of "pro" stuff. I, at this point in my DIY speaker building life don't even know enough to be dangerous. I could see myself buying a plate amp, a couple Daytons, some MDF and making a big noisey box. But you folks talking about pa amps, DJ amps, and "non traditional" amps scare the  :o out of me. Not sure if I could wire it. I can solder very well, to answer HT-EXT, but wouldn't have a clue what to do with a HWK, and amp sitting in front of me if the instructions didn't say "install + to + and - to -". Am very willing to learn, have a decent automotive knowledge of wiring, but the advanced crossover / amp / driver wiring may be a cause of a future post or two.  To answer HT-EXT again, I'm looking to spend under $200 for the amp (and crossover if one is needed). The room is 98% for home theater use so looking for a certain amount of overall quality. It sounds like it's possible given the posts read, and dollar amount.

The RythmicAudio 250W amp looks very nice for $100, but will it run the 2 Daytons 15"? The P.E. 250W with remote looks cool for $139. May do a remote mount plate amp, say, in the equipment rack with a cooling fan. So it doesn't get it's brains scrambled.

The power indicator LED's are neat. I always get goosebumps looking at the pretty lights.

The Behringer is currently running $299.99 at zZounds.com. I found some amps in the blowout section, but don't have a clue as to what I'm looking at.

Is an amp an amp? As long as you can plug it into 120V?

May try a pawn shop or two in my area. Sounds like an item a guy could find there. But once again, I feel like a 14 year old little girl in the tool section of Home Depot.  ::)

Bob
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gildcm
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #13 - 01/18/06 at 21:16:20
 
When going to the pawn shops in your area ask the people at the shop if they have checked the amp out. Alot of the amps that you can buy at pawn shops may have one channel blown.

Basically all you need to test is a source (ie MP3 player) with a 1/8th inch jack (ie regular headphone) jack to a 1/4 inch mono jack. On the output of the amp you can put a speaker and wire + (speaker) to + (amp) and - to -. Do this for both channels on the amp. Make sure the output volume knob is turned to only about 10% or 15%.

When buying an amp always check RMS watts not peak. A good rule of thumb is to always have more power than you need so that you don't clip the amp.
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gildcm
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #14 - 01/18/06 at 21:23:07
 
I have found my crossovers on eBay. I have two DBX active crossovers. Got a steal on one that came with an amp (QSC USA 850), crossover (DBX 3-way crossover), eq (no name), and road case (SKB) for $100.
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J_Rock
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #15 - 01/18/06 at 22:26:51
 
Just to make sure, you are getting these right?

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-130

If so, these amps would work as far as power levels:

one of these with subs in parallel: (250 rms to each sub)
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=300-752

Subs in parallel to one fo these:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=300-806

MaxAmp 2 or 3:(each sub on different channel, 1 amp total)
http://www.cheaplights.com/catalog/01_info.php?sec=201

This amp would have to have one sub on each channel:(opened box)
http://stores.channeladvisor.com/musicsupplycenter/Items/100-01-0208?

Heres SPecs on above:(new Amp price also)
http://stores.channeladvisor.com/musicsupplycenter/Items/700-05-0006?

one of these for each sub(note the power at 8 ohms):
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/nonservo_product.htm#350basic

2 of these:
http://www.apexjr.com/Apexsenior.htm

This is to run your subs with 200-300 wrms per sub.
Go with a single amp if at all possible since both subs will be in the same enclosure.  If you do get 2 amps, you will be able to later seperate the HWK into two seperate subs if needed.  These are also not the only options.
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #16 - 01/18/06 at 22:59:48
 
DUDE, your cool  ;D

Just buzzing through them the LSA-900 makes my tigglies wiggly.  I'll spend some time looking at these and get back to you.

Bob

p.s. thank you very much for spending so much time on little ol' me.
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J_Rock
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #17 - 01/19/06 at 02:33:47
 
Yeah, that would run your subs at 225 wrms a piece at 8 ohms a piece, I would've recommended the jump up to the LSA1200, but that "Scratch and dent" LSA900 is just too good of a deal.
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HT-EXT
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #18 - 01/19/06 at 10:21:11
 
Do not worry about soldering unless you buy the Velleman power kits. PA and DJ amps are just heavy duty stereo amps(20Hz to 20KHz frequency range) that can take the punishment of traveling and put out KILLER power. With PA/DJ amps you will need a crossover and maybe an equalizer for the HWK15. Subwoofer plate amps(20Hz to 200Hz frequency range) are good because they have built in crossovers, phase, and gain(volume) controls. Everyone is different so you will have to decide what you like. I use a 250W plate amp to run one HWK15(2 DAYTON SERIES II) and can bury the SPL meter with out any worries of course not for long periods of time without  MR. FAN running. If you are looking for a excellent sub for home theater the WO36 is BADA--. Do not get me wrong I would not take anything for my HWK15s. The sound and SPL they put out are second to none. Remember the HWK is somewhat easier to build and the performance will out do most of the $1000 home theater subs. GOODLUCK!
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« Last Edit: 01/19/06 at 11:21:54 by Joe_Eaton »  
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #19 - 01/19/06 at 12:01:01
 
Ok guys, credit card in hand. Todays the day for drivers and amp.

The LSA-900 for $130 looks like the cats meow. (will attempt to find out why it's in the scratch and dent pile, supposed to be new in the box.?)
Doens't look like I would need a crossover. I think it has one that quits at 150hz built in. If memory serves, my 7.1 surrounds can live with that.
If I can get the LSA-900 for that price, I'd consider a step up in driver price. Yes, J_Rock, by the way, those Dayton series II drivers are the one's I was looking at.
Doesn't look like I'd need any more equipment to purchace other than misc wiring, terminals ect...

Bob
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #20 - 01/19/06 at 12:14:09
 
With an Xmas of 8mm on the Series II, and an Xmas of 15mm on the DVC Series --these ---http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-190

I could afford 2 of the DVC's if I get the amp at $130.

Is this a better idea???

Bob
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HT-EXT
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #21 - 01/19/06 at 12:48:33
 
I choose the Series II because the specs are so close to Steve's specs. The white paper plans says "Fs=20, Qts=.38, and Vas=10 cubic feet" is the ball park to shoot for in specs. The HWK should work with either Dayton. The best speaker set up seems to be baskets/magnets in the center chamber with the woofer's cone firing toward the ports. You will need to hook one woofer out of phase. Have fun with the BOOM!
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60ndown
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #22 - 01/19/06 at 12:55:18
 
you dont have to worry too much, if you build the hw right and put ok drivers in it , its going to give you what you want.i personally use an old jvc amp ($30 at a thrift store 50 wpc?) via a nice x over, and 2 old school jbl 15s', that amp combined with my h.w. fill a a big L shaped room, a big room probably 6 or 700 sq feet floor plan with enough bass to seriously upset my wife, because the outside of the house is vibrateing and disturbing the neibours! on 50 wpc???? just make sure you build the housewrecker 'to plans' and you will get the insane low end this cab is desighned to do Grin with 2 or 300 wrms, im a little afraid for you, you might be half way through a movie and some subsonic sound will be there, and it will litterally make you, and anyone else watching, jump out of your skin with fear! imagineing that a semi truck just crashed into your house, because thats what its going to sound, and feel like.
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Adrian D.
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #23 - 01/19/06 at 13:07:39
 
about the power indicators...pa amps have power indicators on the INPUT, because all of them produce max power with 0,775v on the input.
good luck with your project bob, and sorry for bringing up "older" replies. i have a 9 or 10 hrs time offset, so while i'm busy sleeping, you guys are posting a lot  ::)
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DirtDawg
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #24 - 01/19/06 at 13:15:36
 
[quote author=60ndown  link=1137542099/15#22 date=1137675318]....... you might be half way through a movie and some subsonic sound will be there, and it will litterally make you, and anyone else watching, jump out of your skin with fear! imagineing that a semi truck just crashed into your house, because thats what its going to sound, and feel like. [/quote]

That is so true! You get good powerful sub sonics going and movies take on a different flavor. Wait til you hear explosions that come in waves, or race cars, or semis that actually shake the room well below hearing ability and it sounds real, instead of like some fluffy bass thing happening over in the corner.

I wouldn't be too concerned with a description on a demo/scratch and dent/showroom/customer return item if the seller is reputable, but usually "new in box" doesn't necessarily mean "factory sealed" anyway. If they use the term "new" I expect a warranty of some sort. "In box" is good, but "in original box" might be better prepared for shipping across the country, again warranty is the question I would want answered up front, before making a decision. No problem either way as long as you know what to expect in advance. At that price it would be difficult for them to offer a warranty on a product that is questionable.
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60ndown
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #25 - 01/19/06 at 13:24:09
 
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #26 - 01/19/06 at 13:26:52
 
Cheesy DONE  :D

Dayton Series II's ordered !

Waiting for Music Supply Center to get back to me about why it's in the scratch and dent bin.

Sunday I'll be at Home Depot buying MDF.

Bob

Just noticed all of the replies you guys made while I was trying to reach my credit limit. Amazing. You've all been VERY helpful. Just about the time I think society is going in the toilet, I find poeple like you. Willing to help a total stranger (idiot) spending your time surfing the net to give me links and advise.

THANK YOU
Bob
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« Last Edit: 01/19/06 at 13:39:45 by Bob »  
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DirtDawg
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #27 - 01/19/06 at 13:33:33
 
WTF!
Sorry about that, I thought Gex was the only who had perfected the multiple posting talent. Three for the price of one? Who knows why?
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« Last Edit: 01/19/06 at 13:34:31 by DirtDawg »  
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #28 - 01/19/06 at 13:38:11
 
DirtDawg, multiple repetative posts just means you really, really, really mean it !
Bob
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Sean
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #29 - 01/19/06 at 14:04:13
 
Hard to find deals like that in Canada - lots of stuff on EBay, but mostly in the US, so with shipping, the cost increases so much that it's no longer worthwhile.

My crossover is a Behringer DCX 2496, and I use a Behringer DEQ 2496 equalizer.  A nice setup, but I paid an arm and a leg for it.

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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #30 - 01/19/06 at 14:07:49
 
The important thing is that it does what you need, and your happy with it.
Bob
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HT-EXT
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #31 - 01/19/06 at 14:11:33
 
No worries BOB these guys have help me alot too and most of my answers come from them and some experience. They put up with me and I'm a stup/drunk that loves BIG BOOM! Everyone here has their own opinion but the mission is the same "The Quest for Killer Audio". I am just happy to peg the SPL meter. Maybe the audiophile in me will show up later in life. GO BIG AND BOOM!
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gildcm
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #32 - 01/19/06 at 14:17:53
 
Good luck with the build Bob. If you can take some pics thru the building process.

Again good luck. BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #33 - 01/19/06 at 14:53:29
 
Thanks from a fellow stupid/drunk.

Just ordered the LSA900

My plan to take over the world is almost complete.

Bob
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60ndown
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #34 - 01/19/06 at 15:33:27
 
[quote author=Bob  link=1137542099/30#33 date=1137682409]Thanks from a fellow stupid/drunk.

Just ordered the LSA900

My plan to take over the world is almost complete.

Bob
[/quote]

900 wrms and 2 x 15s in HWK...........crazy Cheesy
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gildcm
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #35 - 01/19/06 at 16:21:41
 
[quote author=Bob  link=1137542099/30#33 date=1137682409]My plan to take over the world is almost complete.
[/quote]

Just remeber what happened at the end of the "Pinky and The Brain" shows.
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #36 - 01/19/06 at 20:55:35
 
Yes, I will take pictures. Little old school in the shutterbug area. Will have to have them developed, then scan them. Not sure how they will turn out.

Crazy,......me.........ok.

I have better sidekick than "The Brain"......I have you guys. Wink

Will be waiting for the mail every day. I'll let you know what the LSA900 looks like when it comes. Hopefully hasn't been run over by a truck. Fellow that emailed me back assured me it was 'new' and perfectly fine. (Then why so cheap?)
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J_Rock
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #37 - 01/19/06 at 21:44:46
 
The thing is, a company is much better off telling a customer that they are paying for an opened item, or one with a damaged original carton, then they are for selling it at normal cost.  

They can get in big trouble for selling an opened item without taking note of it, and no one wants to buy an opened box for the same price as a new item.

So they pricemark the opened one to get their money back and avoid any legal trouble at all.

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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #38 - 01/19/06 at 22:44:11
 
I'll buy that..........pun intended.

Bob
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J_Rock
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #39 - 01/19/06 at 23:19:42
 
Nice Pun!  1 point for Bob.

I can guess you are going to have a problem with hooking this amp up to your system, so I might as well right now(At work ya know, pretend to be busy)....

Well theres several ways to do it, first question is does your HT reciever have a sub out?(PRAY you do!)

If yes, how many RCA's are it?

If two, you can go a single RCA to 1/4 inch mono adapter for each RCA or each channel.

If one, you are gonna wanna get and RCA Splitter and then get 2 RCA to 1/4 mono adapter for each input channel.

*****You can use an XLR type connector instead of the 1/4 inch mono*****

If your Reciever does not have a sub out, get back to us, cause then its gonna be a pain.

Personally, I would hope for your reciever to have a single RCA for the Sub output, I would then split that to dual XLR(only reason would be for sturdy-ness).  That would ensure both channels of the legion sound amp are getting identical signals.  Otherwise, 2 RCA outs will work just fine.  
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« Last Edit: 01/19/06 at 23:22:58 by j_rock777 »  
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Sean
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #40 - 01/20/06 at 00:14:11
 
Agreed.  The 150 Hz lowpass integral to the amp is not low enough for a clean subwoofer... granted, the HWK is a bandpass box, so much of that higher frequency content will be attenuated in the cabinet, but the woofers will still be producing it and hence wasting energy.  Unless your source has a sub out which is passed lower, you will need some sort of crossover to lowpass at about 80 Hz or so.  If you have the sub out, you're good to go, and (as far as I can tell from the photographs) need only use a splitter as J_Rock suggested.  If not, you need either:

1) An active crossover, which will filter frequencies prior to the amplifier, or

2) A passive crossover, which filters after amplification, and hence wastes power.  This is the cheaper option, so you might want to do this for now and then swap out to an active crossover later.

I would use balanced XLR inputs wherever you can, instead of RCA or 1/4" jacks (you will need appropriate cables), and Neutrik speakon connectors for the amp output and HW input connections.  No need to buy expensive pro audio cables - just buy the connectors and make your own.

-Sean
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J_Rock
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #41 - 01/20/06 at 01:00:48
 
I highly second the makeing your own cables, its basic sodering and saves a ton of money.  Plus you can choose colors and connectors to your liking.  Much better.

without a sub out below 100hz, a XO will be much better.  I prefer to cross my WO over at 120 hz, but thats because the WO is very musical, whereas the HWK, I have never listened to.
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Adrian D.
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #42 - 01/20/06 at 11:50:40
 
i connected my pa amp to the headphone out on my integrated amp, using a y-splitter so that i have 2 XLR jacks going in the x-over.
i am terribly sorry i didn't buy parts for the cables instead of buying the whole cable : 20$ for 2*1m xlr-jack cables and 2*1m xlr-xlr cables. i'm not sure if it would have been cheeper if i would have built my own.
i have my dbs crossed at about 65, because i hate how the db-10 boosts the 100-120hz section.
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #43 - 01/20/06 at 11:52:25
 
I have started making my own cables. (After most of the HT cables were already purchaced) It's magical what RG-6 can be made to do. However I wouldn't think RG-6, or RG-59 would be good for post amp to speaker.

Yes, I think we'll make this easy, I have a single RCA 'sub out' on my Harman Kardon AVR-525. I'm proud of my backside.....anybody wanna see it?

(sub out is #4 on lower left, mixed in with the other preamp outputs.)
http://manuals.harman.com/HK/QuickStart%20Guide/AVR525RrPnlCnnctns.pdf

Have no fear of making cables, but have never heard of XLR or Neutrik speakon connectors.

Bob


Also, here's something neat to look at....it has pretty pictures. It sound cool, but has alot of marketing bulls Shocked too.

http://manuals.harman.com/HK/Technology%20Articles/TripleCrssoverTechSht.pdf

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Adrian D.
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #44 - 01/20/06 at 11:56:31
 
i just remembered...taxis in romania use XLR for powering the "advertisment" on the top. i laughed when i first saw that (2 days after i've bought my cables)
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #45 - 01/20/06 at 11:59:37
 
Next time I go to Romania, I'll grab a handfull !!

(cabbie's there don't carry guns,....do they??)

Bob
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« Last Edit: 01/20/06 at 13:30:01 by Bob »  
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Sean
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #46 - 01/20/06 at 13:55:07
 
Okay - you have the sub out, so that saves you having to buy an extra crossover.  Incidentally, do you know what the low pass frequency of that output is?

Unless your amp has a summing input (where you can provide a signal to only one input channel but have both outputs driven), you will need to split this output into two separate channels, to feed each input channel of your amplifier.  The sub out on your receiver is a female RCA, and you need to split this into two male XLRs.  You may be able to find just such a cable, or use a cheap RCA Y adapter with two separate RCA to XLR single channel cables, or just buy the appropriate connectors and make what you need.

As for the amp to speaker connection, you could just wire this directly (I think your amp has binding posts for this purpose), but personally, I would shell out a few bucks for the Neutrik Speakon connectors - that is the other output jack you see on the back of the amp.  One cable connector for each end of the speaker cable, and one input connector/dish receptacle for the cabinet.  If it is a permanent home theater installation, it doesn't really matter, but the speakons give you a connection that is tolerant of many cycles of connection and disconnection (important if you move your gear around a lot), plus it looks cleaner (if that matters to you).  The Speakons are bulletproof, and will accept up to 12 GA wire with no soldering necessary.

-Sean
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #47 - 01/20/06 at 14:00:43
 
Is XLR and Neutrik something a guy could find at Radio Shack?

Bob
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Sean
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #48 - 01/20/06 at 14:08:10
 
Don't know about Radio Shack specifically, but there are lots of sources for both types of connectors.  Just do a Google search.

-Sean
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gildcm
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #50 - 01/20/06 at 14:22:38
 
Here is a site that shows the pin out of wire for making the cables.

http://www.mediacollege.com/audio/connection/
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Sean
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #51 - 01/20/06 at 14:24:51
 
This may help with assembling cables:

http://www.doctorproaudio.com/doctor/temas/ref_con.htm

-Sean
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Sean
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #52 - 01/20/06 at 14:28:22
 
One more thing - given the option between a balanced or unbalanced version of a given cable, you probably want to use the balanced version.  The discrepancy arises because RCA is inherently a single-ended connector (i.e. 2 conductors as opposed to XLR's 3).  The potential for the chassis grounds of source and amplifier to float with respect to each other can lead to amplifier hum, for example.
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DirtDawg
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #53 - 01/20/06 at 15:35:06
 
I'm not sure you need to go to the expense of XLR type connectors, unless you have no choice. The differences and benefits between balanced and unbalaced lines can be confusing. Unless you have a balanced system, you won't have a balanced input without some circuitry or at least a balancing transformer. In-home it is not necessary to use a balanced system unless your cable run is 20 or 30 feet.

If your new amp has 1/4" connectors I'd use them, in fact many have 2 per channel and it is very easy to gang connections with a short jumper between the 2 channels. That would be the same as a "Y" connector. Have you tried to look at an online version of your manual to find out the back panel configuration? It may be much easier than you're planning to make it. Search for a manual. Grin

Check this out.

http://www.jensen-transformers.com/an/an003.pdf

There's a good explanation here, too.

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/interconnects/Balancedvsunba...
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Sean
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #54 - 01/20/06 at 16:37:12
 
Balancing may not be important in Bob's home theater, but there are other pragmatic reasons for using the XLR connections - maybe more important for PA applications than for use in the home, but still worth mentioning:

1) the XLR engages all of its conductors at once, and can not short circuit the signal lines during connection / disconnection

2) the XLR is a positive locking connector

Just a thought - if the amp has both XLR and 1/4" phone plug inputs, could you achieve the split by using a single RCA to XLR from the receiver to one amp input, and then use a 1/4" phone plug jumper between the two input jacks on the amp?

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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #55 - 01/20/06 at 16:41:46
 
Found all of the links, looks like good information.

I know my EXISTING connections are fairly standard, however the LSA900 I have coming in the mail is an unknown. The panel connection picture from the company I purchaced from just blows...can't see well enough to tell.

The 'balanced / unbalanced' thing is a whole new can of worms I didn't know about. Hopefully it won't be an issue.
Should find out in a day or two.

Still looking for the low pass frequency spec.

Bob

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Adrian D.
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #56 - 01/20/06 at 17:07:43
 
cabbies in romania don't carry guns...or at least i haven't met any Wink
come by anytime Wink
the stuff about xlr and other types is really useful. thanks for the topic guys. i hope bob uses this info Wink
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gildcm
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #57 - 01/20/06 at 17:37:14
 
It looks like the amp you are getting Bob is the LSA-800 by Legion Sound. Here is the page of specs from Legion Sound.

http://www.legionsound.com/legion%20web/lsa800.htm

It looks like it has 1/4 inch, and XLR inputs. Outputs you have Speakon connectors and binding posts. Which is the normal inputs and outputs for pro audio amps.

If you are going to be running one channel to one speaker you will be putting 225 watts to that speaker at 8 ohms. You could running the amp in Mono/Bridged and get 900 watts at a 4 ohm speaker load by running the speakers in parallel. Just watch your phasing of the speakers.
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #58 - 01/20/06 at 17:44:31
 
Actually I purchaced the LSA900 here.... http://stores.channeladvisor.com/musicsupplycenter/Items/100-01-0208?

But, I'm sure the inputs/outputs would be the same.

Bob
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gildcm
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #59 - 01/20/06 at 17:50:12
 
Hopefully I'm wrong and you are getting a better amp.

Good luck on the build. Now I have to start building mine. I can't decide on the 10" version or 15" version.
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #60 - 01/20/06 at 18:04:11
 
15" for sure. Total size of the box you'll stare at isn't a big difference. Driver price difference not much. Have you read the entire thread? I got the Dayton Series II's from parts express for $88 each. Think it might be pretty cool.

Bob
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #61 - 01/20/06 at 18:41:11
 
After reading the post from gildcm, I went to the web site for Legion Sound to find a better pic of the LSA900. Can't find one, maybe THIS is the reason it was $70 off. They don't make it anymore???  They only have the 800, and 1200, no 900.

Bob
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gildcm
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #62 - 01/20/06 at 20:54:36
 
Bob, I have a 15" peavey black widow laying around and 3 JL 10W3s. That is why I have to decide. But as you said I am leaning toward the 15" and later buying some Dayton's.  
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« Last Edit: 01/20/06 at 20:55:11 by gildcm »  
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #63 - 01/20/06 at 21:30:56
 
WAAAYY better guys here can tell you if the 3 10" JL's you already own would be good. Or if you should build the 15" box, install the one B.W. and down the road buy another. This may be a bad idea, but how about a 15" HWK,  install the B.W.  then later add a Dayton or two. They may not play well together, but just one idea???  BUt I think most would agree 15" would be be better than 10".

Bob
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J_Rock
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #64 - 01/20/06 at 21:36:24
 
It sounds like confusion is all, the LSA 800 says it uses 900 watts worth of transitors. Perhaps this is the mistake.

Either way, The amp will work fine for those daytons.  

You could do either XLR or 1/4 inch, the only reason I suggested XLR is for the Postive locking.
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #65 - 01/20/06 at 22:13:33
 
Here's what Music Supply Center calls it... http://stores.channeladvisor.com/musicsupplycenter/Items/700-05-0006?

As far as the difference in connector / termination, I also like the idea of the XLR. The 1/4" reminds me of the 1/8" stereo plugs that you would here static until you rotate the plug... not what I need.

Bob
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #66 - 01/23/06 at 11:50:17
 
Ok, I lied. I did taxes this week end, Forgot about those.   Roll EyesNEXT weekend I've got a 3 day weekend. Plenty of time to build A HWK. None of my new toys came yet.  >:(

Bob
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #67 - 01/25/06 at 11:57:02
 
The 2 Dayton Drivers are in, WOW 15" is big. Arrived in perfect condition.
Amp came, but nobody was home to receive it. Will pick up at post office Friday (got the 3 day weekend coming up).
Will purchace MDF and misc materials Friday at Home Depot. Screen fabric for 140" diag. front projection is in, will pick up Friday.
Berkline Home Theater seating should be in any day now.

Having a hard time focusing on my job recently... May have to call in sick Thursday  ;D ..... Na, gotta pay for this stuff somehow.

Bob
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DirtDawg
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #68 - 01/25/06 at 12:58:33
 
[quote author=Bob  link=1137542099/60#65 date=1137795213]Here's what Music Supply Center calls it... http://stores.channeladvisor.com/musicsupplycenter/Items/700-05-0006?

As far as the difference in connector / termination, I also like the idea of the XLR. The 1/4" reminds me of the 1/8" stereo plugs that you would here static until you rotate the plug... not what I need.

Bob [/quote]

I'm not quite sure where the notion came from that you will be immune to those problems simply by using an XLR connector. Pros using that amp may have to set it up in 4 or 5 different locations every week and put more wear and tear on every connection than you will at home.

There are many reasons to use an XLR, but the reasons stated for not using 1/4" is mainly encountered when using an amatuer grade connector. If your amp has high quality jacks and you buy pro quality plugs, you won't experience any static or degradation in the signal transfer. The shorting of the output can become a concern with certain tube outs, but generally you don't want to hot swap audio gear any way. Develope good habits from the beginning regarding your new amp. Grin

Glad to see it coming together for you. Keep us posted! Cheesy
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« Last Edit: 01/25/06 at 13:02:41 by DirtDawg »  
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #69 - 01/25/06 at 13:10:07
 
I guess my unfounded problem with "rotateable" type terminations, stems from when I was a kid. Remember the portable FM and cassette radios? Remember having to rotate the connector (and then using scotch tape wrapped around the connector to hold it in place?  I suppose in reality, (with pro grade) these terminations are much better than I remember. Of course my walkman didn't use 1/4" either.

When you say develop good habits with my amp, are you refering to hot swapping?

Bob
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DirtDawg
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #70 - 01/25/06 at 13:21:28
 
[quote author=Bob  link=1137542099/60#69 date=1138194607]
When you say develop good habits with my amp, are you refering to hot swapping?

Bob [/quote]
Yep!
I watched as a friend once tried switching stuff around and before I could stop him, the speaker outs from 2 different amps touched [LIGHTNING] and it fried both his new amps. He was not practicing "Safety First" as they say.
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« Last Edit: 01/25/06 at 13:23:45 by DirtDawg »  
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #71 - 01/25/06 at 14:12:36
 
Shocked  :o  :o
Not a happy camper......
Thanks, that is a practice I should start.  I've been known to yank S-video, and component cables while equipment was on.  BAAAD!! Stop it....

Bob
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DirtDawg
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #72 - 01/25/06 at 15:12:39
 
[quote author=Bob  link=1137542099/60#71 date=1138198356] Shocked  :o  :o
Not a happy camper......
Thanks, that is a practice I should start.  I've been known to yank S-video, and component cables while equipment was on.  BAAAD!! Stop it....

Bob [/quote]
I don't know much about the mechanics of video, but I know many of the circuits are assembled in static free clean rooms because some of the chips used in that gear have microscopic conductors that are sensitive even to static electrical discharge that we couldn't feel. I'm sure the supporting circuitry helps to protect it to some degree, but I prefer not to temp or dare The Devil. Smiley
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #73 - 01/25/06 at 16:06:41
 
How true. I put in a good quality DVD, and was switching from composite, to S-video, to component just to see how much of a difference was visible. I thought (apparently not  ::) ) that If I made the changes fast enough it would be easier to see the differences as opposed to shutting everything down, swapping cables, firing all back up, and finding the same refence point on the DVD. I wanted to do it fast so my mind would'nt "forget" what it looked like. Good idea in theory, but in practice I was 'daring the devil' as you say.

Yes, by the way, there is a big difference. But we all knew that anyway.   Smiley

Bob (willing to sacrifice my equipment for the better of the community)
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #74 - 01/25/06 at 18:36:36
 
Quick question, in a dual driver HWK, I'm thinking about mounting the top driver face up (magnet down in center chamber). Do I set driver in hole from the top chamber, resting it on the back side of the driver flange with gasket. Or, do I install in center chamber FROM the center chamber, so the built in gasket is against the bottom of the top divider.

Or does it matter.

Reason is, ease if installation, holding the driver with one hand trying to install fasteners with other hand. Easier to just set it in hole.

Bob
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DirtDawg
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #75 - 01/25/06 at 19:34:01
 
I guess it depends on how you built it. I've seen some pics where the whole side was removable, others had a removable panel in the center chamber, and some made both ends removable. My next one I plan to make one side removable to make access to everything easier.

I've only built one and the ends were removable and I simply dropped the drivers in from the top and bottom. I used black sticky drain pipe putty as a gasket, which is available at Home Depot - a few bucks for a huge roll. It makes a fairly permanent installation, but you can pry the driver lose if you need to. A similar product that is white and made for windows is also good. BTW I had the baffles loaded with "T" Nuts before I glued them in place.
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #76 - 01/25/06 at 20:12:08
 
Not a bad idea about the putty. In the automotive industry we use a material we call 'dum dum'. It's about 1/4" - 3/8" diameter 'rope' that comes in a roll. Black and gooey used to seal HVAC in cars. I think our parts department has some.   ???

I'm thinking I'll make one entire side removeable to ease in driver musical chairs. Will probably design some overbuilt PITA as a gasket. Thought about a 48" piano hinge to make almost a closet door type setup. You've seen the pins racecars have to hold the hoods on, that would be the latch. Would require extensive gasketing, almost like a refrigerator. Somehow keep gasket in place during use.  No, .... I won't call fridgedaire and ask the spl rating of the fridge gasket.  ::)

Bob
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DirtDawg
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #77 - 01/25/06 at 20:23:24
 
I'll bet "dum-dum" is the same stuff the plumbers use. Since you are in the auto industry and want a bad news gasket ..... think about what they use for pick up toppers as a gasket. It has glue on one side, too.
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #78 - 01/25/06 at 21:45:25
 
Yea, "Camper tape". much easier to work with.
Bob
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Sean
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #79 - 01/25/06 at 22:19:06
 
I would forget the door idea and stick to lids top and bottom.  This cabinet needs to be as stiff as possible, and I can't really see an advantage of having a hinged door on something which is likely not to be opened with any sort of frequency.  Drivers mount to the upper face of the top baffle and the lower face of the bottom baffle, through the ends.  I used T-nuts for this.
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DirtDawg
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #80 - 01/25/06 at 22:49:24
 
Of course, Sean is right, but I was thinking we had gone past reality and were engaged in thought play at this point. At least that's what I got from your hinge idea.

If you're worried that it will take a long time to decide which "tuning" you prefer, don't. You have 2 drivers, right? You also have 2 ports and 2 chambers, the center one doesn't make sound so it doesn't count.

Placing them with the magnets in the center chamber will give you the lowest tuning in both ports.

Placing them with the magnets in the vented chambers will give you the highest tuning in both ports

Both of those arrangements will give you a push-pull loading with the drivers firing in opposite directions and result in the least non-linearity distortion. Either way I would wire them electrically out of phase with each other so that they work in unison...... both helping each other.

You can also place the drivers with both magnets down, push-pull. This will give you the lowest tuning on the low port and the highest tuning on the high port. In other words the widest bandwidth box.

Reversing them and placing both magnets up gives you the narrowest bandwidth.

I prefer the lowest overall tuning.
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #81 - 01/26/06 at 12:13:44
 
K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid)

Ok, Ok, I got a little crazy there, sorry. One of my faults is that I'll over analyze something to death. Can't even build a freakin' box without over-engineering. Should have been born a Porsche, or BMW engineer.

Seal all four sides so the center chamber will never be accessible. Mount the drivers in the ends, Leave end caps removable, and do any moving around from the ends.

Yes DD, I do have 2 drivers. Thinking the magnets will both end up in center chamber. My (6) surrounds have a range from 65hz to 21khz (Niles OS-10's). All currently set to large since no sub yet. So I havn't played with built in crossover settings on the receiver much (Harman Kardon AVR 525). They don't have much 'punch' left that low in hz, so some tweeking will be needed with crossover setting, and driver placement. Will purchace some form of calibration device to assist. Still havn't done anything with room acustics so will have to recalibrate once that's done. Slow process. Money, time, and knowledge making it that way. Mainly money.....

Bob


For some reason I can only post at work. At home this web site will let me log in, and acknowledge me at the top of the screen. If I click on anything it will direct me there, but top of screen says I'm a guest again. Will NOT keep me logged in. Hmmm. So no posts this weekend.  

I will try to have pics on Monday morning pending development of photos.

Bob
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DirtDawg
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #82 - 01/26/06 at 12:34:12
 
Try Tools / Internet Options / "delete temporary files" (delete all offline content)...... "delete cookies". You might make sure your browser checks for newer versons of stored pages under settings, also. That stuff becomes corrupt sometimes if you use Windows.

The only caution is for other sites you visit that log you in automatically using cookies. You will have to log in to everything again.

I have found that this site dumps you off at odd times or when you least expect it, especially if you refresh a page it many times logs you off as part of the command. Security reasons, I guess.
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #83 - 01/26/06 at 13:08:20
 
Yea, using windows, havn't tried deleting cookies. I did lower my security settings to allow all cookies (Hello virus, come on in) that made no difference. Having no problem at work, only home. Totally unable to post at home. Fairly annoying. Actually have more internet time at work then at home. If I'm at home I'm building / tweeking / destroying something. Work is in slow season, and boss is very tolorant of play time  ;D.

Bob

p.s.  Love your signature DD.  Know just how you feel.
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« Last Edit: 01/26/06 at 13:10:06 by Bob »  
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Adrian D.
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #84 - 01/26/06 at 19:04:34
 
now about the magnets in center chamber : there would be another advantage besides lower tuning. the cones will couple together better and improve linearity because it's sort of an isobaric loading
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J_Rock
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #85 - 01/26/06 at 20:55:38
 
if you decide tyo keep the magnets in center chamber, hot glueing a dowel of correct lengths to the rear of each driver will keep the baskets coupled even more.  This makes a huge effect in dipole full range cabnets I have done.  Perhaps it would benefit a HWK.
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #86 - 01/26/06 at 21:17:09
 
"ISOBARIC LOADING" is a term I've heard many times, not very sure of the meaning.

Dowel rod sounds like a very good idea, but the Daytons I have, have a hole in the center covered with a screen. Don't know how I'd attach the rod.

Bob
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DirtDawg
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #87 - 01/26/06 at 23:26:41
 
Good suggestion J_ROCK!

I used to cram/jam/brace the magnets in my folded horns against the backs of the cabinets and it cleaned up lots of harmonic mishappenings. Making the entire supporting mass one unit really helped in such a high pressure area. Any time you make a cabinet more solid it is a good thing.

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DirtDawg
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #88 - 01/27/06 at 00:11:06
 
That funny hole is necessary for cooling the voice coil. Don't block it! You could still have the same bracing by using a flat board with a "U" shape cut out of the ends. Make the U bigger than the hole and it won't impede the airflow.

"Isobaric" refers to pressure or more precisely, equal pressure. When you put 2 drivers together and make them work as one, the pressure between them remains equal on one side of the motor and aided by the other motor and cone, gain a little bit a stability from the "loading". Two motors working as one, coupled with an equal(izing) pressure chamber in between is stronger than one motor.

Many people will say it's a waste of a good driver and that one driver alone will be just as good. They would be correct as far as the first half, or so, of the drivers operating capability goes.

It's when you really need to lean on the drivers that the benefit from iso-loading becomes apparent. When really pushed, the double motors are more stable and resist over-excursion better than one single driver alone can.

In addition to all that, when you have them facing each other and they work as one unit, any non-linear distortion will be averaged and theoretically reduced to one half. Non-linearity is caused from a driver moving in one direction with a different compliance, or restance to movement, than it moves in the other direction. If it moves out easier than it moves in, or vice versa, you have a problem ...... a very common problem.
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60ndown
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #89 - 01/27/06 at 14:24:06
 
[quote author=DirtDawg  link=1137542099/75#88 date=1138320666] any non-linear distortion will be averaged and theoretically reduced to one half. Non-linearity is caused from a driver moving in one direction with a different compliance, or restance to movement, than it moves in the other direction. If it moves out easier than it moves in, or vice versa, you have a problem ...... a very common problem. [/quote]

interesting, i have wondered when people talk about inverting subs, it seems to me the front of a woofer would move more air than the back? people have argued and said it doesnt make a difference, but i cant get my head around the different shape reacting differently with air? flat subs would seem to overcome any differences eh?
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Sean
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #90 - 01/27/06 at 15:31:02
 
Obviously the volume change ahead of the woofer must be equal to the volume change behind it, so from that perspective there is no difference between mounting a woofer magnet in or magnet out; however, compliance differences will occur as a result of the cone surround and spider geometry.  For example, a rubber surround which is a half-circle cross section will not deform the same way when the cone moves out versus in - the non linearities are slight in a well designed driver, but for a matched pair of drivers, isobaric mounting averages the non-linearities in each direction so the effective compliance is the same regardless of the direction of cone movement.  Where mounting direction matters is when using drivers as direct radiators, as opposed to in bandpass or horn loaded enclosures, since the shape of the driver cone affects how the sound disperses, and having a metal basket and motor assembly right in front of your driver is obviously going to be detrimental from that perspective.

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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #91 - 01/30/06 at 13:40:57
 
Happy Monday morning.

Hwk is finished except for cosmetics. Will have pictures once I get the rest of the pictures on the roll taken.

Things I noticed this weekend:

#1  Legion LSA-900 is a professional piece of equipment. NOT for use in an exposed rack system in a home theater setting. It's LOUD, the two fans in the rear run all of the time. The exhaust is through the grill on the front that runs the entire width of the face of the unit. It's as loud as my microwave. One other minor issue, the blue power indicator LED on the amp projects a perfect beam of high intensity blue light, right into my eyes from 10' away. Almost like it was done on purpose.

#2  My God it's huge. The HWk with 2 15" Dayton's sounds very good. However, I would have thought, with the wattage I have, you would have 'felt' the LFE. This is not to say that the unit hasn't shown me the resonant frequency of various things around my room, along with my wifes tolorance level. But you don't get the "punch in the chest" I was hoping for. Quality of sound is excellent. Needs more tweaking with settings though. Did I mention it's huge? ..... and heavy.

After $450, I'm relatively happy. I thought it would be, .... well ...... more. Especially considering the size of the enclosure, size of drivers, ect..  I don't believe the fine tuning will result in the effect I had hoped, may be I hoped for too much. I'll play after work this week, but will lock myself back in the cave this weekend. Maybe a revelation will strike me as to what I've screwed up.

Bob

p.s. Have I said how big it is?
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60ndown
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #92 - 01/30/06 at 14:43:04
 
i also noticed the quality of the bass the hwk produces was much better than i thought it would be. you might find you get more of the 'car audio' bass in your chest effect with 'different placement' i suppose your level of happiness will be dependant on what you prefer, 'bass in chest' or lots of 'quality bass in room', if you find your un happy with the hwk in a few weeks just buy a good 10 in sub and strap it too your chest dureing playback! seriously try the hwk in different locations in the room. and that amp of yours would drive me nuts! as loud as a microwave?  its gotta go back.
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #93 - 01/30/06 at 14:55:20
 
Amp noise WILL be fixed !  I havn't spent this much time, money, blood on this room to f Shockedk it up.

Doubt they will take it back, seems to work well, happy with it's performance. It'll be "acustically hidden" somehow / somewhere.

Bob
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« Last Edit: 01/30/06 at 15:07:23 by Bob »  
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DirtDawg
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #94 - 01/30/06 at 15:05:40
 
[quote author=Bob  link=1137542099/90#91 date=1138628457]Happy Monday morning.

Hwk is finished except for cosmetics.


But you don't get the "punch in the chest" I was hoping for. Quality of sound is excellent. Needs more tweaking with settings though. Bob

p.s. Have I said how big it is?
[/quote]

You built a subwoofer that wears make-up? Lips Sealed

Hi, Bob,

Punch in the chest is not really bass, and LFE is not really about punch. I may have misguided you if you want "punch". I recommended to place your drivers in the lowest tuning, which would take away some punch and give you more gut disruptive pressure effects. All that stuff moving around and rattling is a sign that something is happening that's powerful.

Before you go too far tuning I would live with it for a few days and get used to what it does with many different programs and goof with the placement a little.

You will find that moving the cabinet will have quite an effect on the output, even turning it in the same spot can change everything. After getting tired of moving it around, you can try changing the way the drivers mount inside to re-tune it to a (higher if you want more punch) range you like better.

Another point to take into account before you do any tuning at all is that the drivers need to break-in a little. So, for your new drivers I suggest you just play them for a few days and see what happens, then change stuff, one thing at a time, to improve your experience.

As far as your amp goes, chech to see if there is a "speed" switch on the fans. That light is designed to be OBVIOUS in a smoky room up to 100' or more away. You can always put tape over it. I like to use some of that make-up you mentioned earlier. After I'm satisfied I won't need warranty service I use nail polish to hide those annoying lights, but don't tell anyone.
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« Last Edit: 01/30/06 at 15:18:39 by DirtDawg »  
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #95 - 01/30/06 at 15:41:19
 
DirtDawg, what I'm going for is a rosy blush effect, how much Cover Girl foundation will it take to cover the enclosure? Will it need 2 coats?

Yea, I'll play this week at night after work. Won't make any major adjustments. May install wheels on the damn thing so I can move it around.

I sold my sectional to make way for the new stuff that should be here any day now. Realize this will impact acustics. That's another reason I'm not getting too anal about fine tuning, the lack of a big cushy bass trap I can sit on...... Will place it behind the seating position to hear what that's like, but it's futile to do that now.

I've heard of people playing sweeps for 2-3 days to break-in new drivers, what do you think?

As far as output, I work with 'one of those' car audio guys  :) he's got several cd's with tones and sweeps. Things rattle in the room when there is very little volume. Which seems like a good thing (not the rattling of course) but not quite the intensity I thought this monster would create. Are you saying it's a trade off between VERY low hz, and the 'feeling' I'm wanting?

Bob
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60ndown
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #96 - 01/30/06 at 22:36:13
 
[quote author=Bob  link=1137542099/90#95 date=1138635679]. Are you saying it's a trade off between VERY low hz, and the 'feeling' I'm wanting?

Bob [/quote]

no  :-X, its the difference between what it 'should' sound like and what it 'does' sound like. a dinosaur takeing a step 100 feet away would have a very distinct sound, as does a hammond organ and a fender precision bass.the idea is to set up our rigs, so they reproduce "faithfully" the origional sound.trouble is with so many subwoofers is that you would not be able to tell what kind of instrument it was, or exactly how heavy the creature is, because EVERYTHING SOUNDS EXACTLY THE PHUKING THE SAME. its very exciteing to have a sub that will make it obvious when your listening to a bass guitar or human hands drumming on a table  ;D  set all your gains to FLAT. put on a very familiar disk (music) play at medium levels and adjust sub amp until it feels / sounds good in the main listening seat.no bass boost, no loudness, no eq no nada, just a clean signal amplified well and into the hwk! when set up like this the onlything you should ever have to adjust is the 'level or volume' of the sub. if something your playing sounds dryer or sloppyer or harder or deeper its because its 'recorded' that way, and the fact that you can hear the difference is a good thing Cheesy
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DirtDawg
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #97 - 01/31/06 at 00:23:42
 
Bob,

Like 60 has pointed out you don't have to trade one for the other. But to try to explain what we are both talking about, you may have heard many subs that couldn't do anything except punch you in the chest. That goes for way over half of the subs out there. Even the ones that can get low many times have such an exagerrated upper bass that they just sound punchy.

Generally the "punch" frequencies are in the upper part of the bass, like 60Hz to 100 Hz. They have a hard sound no matter what causes them. The lower 40Hz and below range has a softer feel to it. Just as strong and powerful to the body, but very different sounding. They are both part of the sound you want to hear, but you shouldn't think of one being better than the other. The perfect sub will play all of it's frequencies at the same level.

The idea of using a familiar CD to set it up is probably the best way. Forget test tones until you are more familiar with what they can do, scientifically, for you. You need some other test equipment to make use of test tones anyway. Once you get it all set up right, though test tones can be a blast.

You don't need to do anything nutty to break in the drivers. Just use them for a few days and they will be mostly there.
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« Last Edit: 01/31/06 at 00:25:45 by DirtDawg »  
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #98 - 01/31/06 at 11:52:04
 
60, DirtDawg,   I respect that very much. My goal is quality, always has been. I'll never change that. Nothing better than to sit in a perfectly quiet room listening to well recorded music on a decent system. A religious experience all in itself.  But, the main goal of this system (95%) is for home theater. So when that dinosaur takes a step, I want to feel it too. I mean a nice solid rumble in my chair. When that rocket takes off or the volcano blows, I want more rumble. But occasionally in a movie sound track, it may be necessary to have even more.

Here's what been in the back of my mind, almost since I started building this room.   I was in the listening room at Ultimate Electronics watching a demo of a front projection setup. I started paying more attention to the sub, because you could feel it (in a tactful way) when it was necessary to feel it. After watching for awhile, I got up and looked at the price, $1600.00.  Not on my budget for a sub. So I started down the DIY road. I figured I was half way there, I've got woodworking skills, just don't know crap about how to turn a bare driver into a religious experience, ...... an art form.

DirtDawg, refering back to your signature, I would replace 'music' with 'movie'. It's an escape from reality, a drug.

As far as the test tones go, No, I wasn't listening to them pretending to know what I was doing. My point was to listen to some audio tracks that had a LOT a bass. These are tracks that the car audio guys use during competition. All spl's and db's. Not my listening preference. Just playing with my new toy.... Some of the disks had tones too, so I was more, "playing" with them, than anything else.

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60ndown
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #99 - 01/31/06 at 14:14:58
 
you could always fit a couple of these to your listening chair? maybe the system you demoed at the store had a couple fitted somewhere????????


http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=299-028
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HT-EXT
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #100 - 01/31/06 at 14:46:45
 
What up BOB? When I first started out I was using two HWK15 to "feel the LFE in my chest" but the SPL was painful. Like 60 pointed out the auras are awesome for home theater. I have used auras, pros, clarks, and now buttkicker lfe and now I can't do with out them. Don't get me wrong STEVE's designs are second to none but if I understand what your after is great sound and tactical force for home theater. The SPL is too loud(for neighbors and women) so the next step is tactical. Let me know if you need any info.
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #101 - 01/31/06 at 14:53:57
 
Yea,.... been thinkin' about those. Though maybe some time down the road. Now may look more seriously. Very good price. Would be cool if I could somehow use the other channel of the amp (wired bridged now).

Hmmmmm

Bob
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HT-EXT
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #102 - 01/31/06 at 16:33:15
 
Depending on the power of the amp it is possible to run both HWK and "shakers". I run 10 auras(not the pros) off one 250w plate amp with no problems but the cooling fan is running. Auras take 30w(peak at 40Hz), pros 50w(peak at 40Hz), clarks 150w(range from 20Hz to 800Hz?), and the buttkicker 400w minimum(range from 5Hz to 200Hz). Tactical transducers work with everything from music to movies, and even the wife. Oh just so you know I can not do without my HWKs either and believe me I have tried just about everything. Good Luck with your adventure into Home Theater.
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« Last Edit: 01/31/06 at 16:38:12 by Joe_Eaton »  
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #103 - 01/31/06 at 16:39:44
 
Thanks HT-EXT,

The amp is a Legion LSA 900. If memory serves, it's 900 watts bridged mono. I'd be worried more about over powering the shakers. I would be getting 4 of them if I did it.

Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #104 - 01/31/06 at 17:08:13
 
If you are looking at the pros over powering four should not be an issue keeping the amp cool will. Shakers draw large amounts of current to operate where a speaker seems to draw a little less. The key is blending the shakers and HWK together. If you have an elevated floor enough shakers in the couch will actual cause the floor to start resonating. All this is a hobby so make it fun.
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #105 - 01/31/06 at 17:59:57
 
HT-EXT, keeping my amp cool may not be a problem. Read a few posts back where I describe the cooling system of this amp. It is the same cooling system used by NASA to cool the launch platform for the space shuttle. I read the manual, and it says the amp fans are normally running in "low" mode. I may need to wear ear protection if these fans ever kick on "high".  :)

Bob
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Sean
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #106 - 01/31/06 at 19:20:18
 
Bob - I think I know what you might be getting at.  In fact, I had been considering changing my HWK alignment from both magnets in the center chamber to both magnets down, and then adjusting the lower chamber to bring its volume back to what it was.  As an experiment, try clamshelling both drivers in the bottom baffle - you may need to make a spacer because I think the surrounds will touch if you couple them directly together.  This will change the way your box works - eliminating the large center chamber and making it a basic sixth order bandpass box, with a frequency response which is quite a bit lower (since the top chamber is now huge).  I did this with my Daytons and was blown away by some movie effects (I think I was watching "Aliens").  As impressive as this was, having the frequency response shifted so low wasn't well suited to listening to music, so I went back to a driver in each baffle.  In any case, I would definitely try both the clamshell in the bottom, and simply flipping the bottom driver over so that both cones face the top, to see what you prefer for your style of listening, and also give you a feel for the effect of changing driver configurations on the output of this enclosure.

-Sean
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #107 - 01/31/06 at 22:50:29
 
Good thoughts, but I'll play with it for awhile like it is. I went a little overboard on the 'stiffness' of the bracing between the two drivers (both magnets in center chamber).  What I did is not totally permanent, but a real PITA to switch driver direction without exploring easier alternatives first. Not ruling it out though.

Bob
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60ndown
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #108 - 02/01/06 at 02:08:53
 
i still vote for excellent quality over 'effect' im sure if you set your hwk up accurately,  forget about wanting 'in your chest' bass and get used to 'articulate accurate bass' you will find that it is way more satisfying. a bit like 'just the tip in' is actually more exciteing than 'full immersion'  ;) weird analogy i know but it the best i can do right now!, maybe the difference between a muscle car and a merc? which one would you actually prefer to drive every day!
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« Last Edit: 02/01/06 at 02:10:33 by 60ndown »  
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #109 - 02/01/06 at 11:58:34
 
Merc..edes, or Merc..ury?

60, Despite may rantings about 'in my chest', I'm still quality over quantity.

That being said if the room was 100% listning room, meaning audio only I'd go for 100% quality sound. Except when I played the 1812 Overeture [sp?] HA HA!! But since it's main purpose is theater / movies, I suppose it's more like 80% quality / accurate sound and 20%, well, ...... BOOM!  I want my jazz to sound very good, but I don't want the bombs / explosions to sound weak. May be the shakers / transducers are looking more like a viable option. Sounds like a good reason for a new thread?

Bob
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60ndown
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #110 - 02/01/06 at 14:18:23
 
the explosions etc will SOUND excellent and be very satisfying, its just that shakeing the couch is not easily done below 172db! would you pour sugar into a quality glass of wine? put 'lengerie' on a beautiful woman? 'spinning hubs' on a ferrari? ketchup on a great steak? good bass is refined and extremely satisfying when deliverd naturally, the in your chest sensation your seeking is an 'abomination' of the real thing.

do me a favor untill your 'shakers' arrive.set up your audio rig with everything flat, watch a movie you know well that has good audio, have the houswrecker turned up to a good level but no bass boost or eqing just x it over at about 70 hz and turn it up and watch the movie.when a low note / sound hits, notice how it sounds 'real' maybe not vibrateing your couch, but it will actually 'sound' real , and you should be able to idetify the difference easily between a car door being closed and a dead body landing on the ground, insted of everthing just sounding like a boom or a thump.haveing 'a thunder clap' tickle your brain( and i say brain because the sound enters either sida of it and start tickleing) @ 12 hz accurately is very very weird and excellent, see if you can find a movie with some good thunder in it!

try it?
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« Last Edit: 02/01/06 at 14:24:50 by 60ndown »  
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DirtDawg
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #111 - 02/01/06 at 16:20:27
 
[quote author=60ndown  link=1137542099/105#110 date=1138803503]the explosions etc will SOUND excellent and be very satisfying, its just that shakeing the couch is not easily done below 172db! would you pour sugar into a quality glass of wine? put 'lengerie' on a beautiful woman? 'spinning hubs' on a ferrari? ketchup on a great steak? good bass is refined and extremely satisfying when deliverd naturally, the in your chest sensation your seeking is an 'abomination' of the real thing.
.....try it? [/quote]

Man, what a list of embarrassing mistakes ...... The best recorded thunder I've heard was on a B-5 episode, (I mean it was real!) but next is the "Sounds of Nature" CDs. I know they're really lame, but they were a gift from some New Age friends of ours at a baby shower and the thunder kicks.

BTW my LFE rig is only theoritically capable of 118dB@15Hz and I've never even gotten close to clipping, but my couch moves plenty when it's supposed to!
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #112 - 02/01/06 at 22:25:39
 
Yes 60, I will try it. I'll need to go buy new movie though. I've been through all of DVD's searching for what I like to call "ear candy". And am getting too "used" to them. The 2 good examples of thunder I have are #1 "The Day After Tomorrow", a few chapters in. And on "Star Wars III", the THX intro with thunder, lightening and the planet shatters and 'tinkles' down. Both very good.

DirtDawg, I've seen the 'Sounds of Nature" cd's in stores, but have not heard of  a cd called B-5. Those are good ideas. Never thought of actually buying them.  ???  I'm just enough of a nut to go buy some sound effect cds, sit in my cave, and listen to thunder and rain.  My wife will think I lost it for sure.

HEY....Now that I think about it, anybody seen an equivelant DVD of this type of stuff??    Maybe HD??  ;D

Then I can have my eye candy along with my ear candy....

Hey 60ndown, yes I would put 'lengerie' on a beautiful woman.
   at first......... Then I'd ...... um....... Shocked

Bob
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« Last Edit: 02/01/06 at 22:36:18 by Bob »  
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #113 - 02/03/06 at 13:38:33
 
Just bought (4) of these ....

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=299-028

Thanks for the recommendation, very good price.

Now if only my seating would come .......

Bob

p.s. Guess I'll strap them on my chest til then.  ;)
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DirtDawg
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #114 - 02/03/06 at 16:28:13
 
[quote author=Bob  link=1137542099/105#112 date=1138832739]

DirtDawg, I've seen the 'Sounds of Nature" cd's in stores, but have not heard of  a cd called B-5. Those are good ideas. Never thought of actually buying them.  ???  I'm just enough of a nut to go buy some sound effect cds, sit in my cave, and listen to thunder and rain.  My wife will think I lost it for sure.

Bob [/quote]

Hey, Bob,

Before you check the stores for that kind of stuff, try the library. I don't know if I'm alone in this but, our local public library is absolutely amazing after an expansion a couple of years ago. I recently did a number search at the library and they have over 60 thousand disk titles, now. They have as varied a selection of DVDs as Blockbuster does. Although delayed by a few months on new stuff, they're free! For a special effects CD, which you won't use very often, I would certainly look there first.

B-5 (DVD) is a cult followers name for "Babylon 5", a series from Showtime a few years back. It was a Sci-Fi program, which was considered groundbreaking in the areas of cinema-like sound and definition over the air/satellite on a TV series budget. It also had a complete saga, beginning to end, written before it was started, unlike most series productions which watch for viewer polls to tell them what's next. It is a little cheesy compared to the latest big budget movie, but if you are a Sci-Fi fan you should give it a try.

I can't remember which episodes, took place on Mars (in the process of being terraformed) where violent thunderstorms are common. The sound was prety good throughout the series, though.

A stable amp is all you need with your Aura's. They present a hghly inductive load similar to a massive wall of speakers, but the impedance and current draw (someone mentioned Roll Eyes) is predictable. You can probably drive them with the same amp if you are creative with your wiring. Just stay within the recommended impedance capacity of your amp. I wouldn't mix them with speakers on one channel, because of the higher reactance. Put all the shakers on one channel and all the speakers on the other.

On other thing many forget is that the phasing on the shakers is just as critical as your main speakers, and switching it around until you get the best result will be necessary. I hope you enjoy your shakers.
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« Last Edit: 02/03/06 at 16:30:48 by DirtDawg »  
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #115 - 02/03/06 at 16:52:11
 
Yes, I've heard of that show, havn't watched.

The front of the amp has seperate controls for channel "a" and "b" for the two channels, so adjustability should be ok. I agree the sub should be on one channel, and shakers on the other. I found this on Parts Express web site, looks good to me. How about this for the shaker channel?

http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/series%20parallel.pdf

What do you think?

Library is a good idea, our local one just moved to a huge new building. Judging by the outside I would think the selection is impressive. AND FREE.

Bob
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« Last Edit: 02/03/06 at 17:20:08 by Bob »  
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DirtDawg
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #116 - 02/03/06 at 17:26:33
 
Don't judge a library by the bricks on the outside. Roll Eyes
Sorry, my "tic" is coming back. Grin

That scheme looks perfect. If the items (whatever they are) you are connecting with that diagram are all the same impedance, the total impedance of all 4 connected in that fashion, combine to equal the same impedance as a single unit.

In other words if your shakers are 8 ohms each, then a block of four, in a series/parallel arrangement, will be 8 ohms also.
Repeat as necessary.
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #117 - 02/03/06 at 18:33:00
 
I may need to go to "audio" math class. I might be confused, I'm not sure?? Here's specs for the amp...

Stereo: 225 x 2 at 8ohm, 400 x 2 at 4ohm, 450 x 2 at 2ohm
Mono: 800 x 1 at 8ohm, 900 x 1 at 4ohm

Here's the spec on the shakers...

Power handling: 50 watts RMS/75 watts max. *Impedance: 4 ohms

Here's the spec on the Dayton's...

Nominal impedance: 8 ohms (still 8 ohms when wired 'together' ' parallel, I assume)

Now, looking at the stereo specs of the amp, I'm assuming the HWK would be one "side" of stereo, and shakers the other "side" of stereo, as far as the amp is concerned.

So, wire as planned...? Is the max wattage to shakers 225W? And the max wattage to the Dayton's also 225W? If so, all is good for the shakers since max wattage for (4) Aura's is 200W. But then my Dayton's are being starved with only 225W?

Or am I stupid?    :'(

Bob
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« Last Edit: 02/03/06 at 18:51:11 by Bob »  
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60ndown
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #118 - 02/04/06 at 16:21:13
 
connect the daytons in paralell = 4 0hms. = 900 wrms = you dont need any bass shakers Grin
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Rap
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #119 - 02/04/06 at 16:38:21
 
[quote author=Bob  link=1137542099/105#117 date=1138991580]I may need to go to "audio" math class. I might be confused,

Nominal impedance: 8 ohms (still 8 ohms when wired 'together' ' parallel, I assume)



Bob [/quote]

If you wire 8 ohm parallel they will be 4 ohms, in series they will be 16 ohm Grin
So you could wire the daytons parallel and the shakers like in pdf. The shakers would be 2x4 ohm parallel =2 ohm and then another pair in parallel = 2 ohm. 2ohm in series with 2 ohm is 4 ohm again Smiley So now you have a 4 ohm load on both sides.

60 dosenīt have any neighbors any more Smiley
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« Last Edit: 02/04/06 at 16:42:59 by Rap »  
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J_Rock
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #120 - 02/04/06 at 17:27:03
 
If you wire all the shakers like in diagram to one channel they will each recieve 100 w.  The daytons on the other hand when wired in parrallel would recieve 200 w each.


I would do what sixty said, wire the daytons in parralel bridged to the amp, resulting in 450 w a piece, and then get a seperate amp for the shakers, that one in the PDF is like $100.


That would give you the highest output through the daytons, and you wouldn't have to worry about underpowering anything.

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DirtDawg
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #121 - 02/04/06 at 18:52:34
 
[quote author=Bob  link=1137542099/105#117 date=1138991580]Or am I stupid?    :'(

Bob [/quote]

You're NOT stupid, Bob.
The way I would do it is shakers in series/parallel like the diagram on one channel. You'll have 400 Watts across them ..... it should be fine.

Daytons in parallel will be 4 ohms and you'll have 400 Watts on those, also. They will not starve.

I have never used shakers myself, since I have plenty of shake coming from my 6 - 15"ers bi-amped in the corner, but I have installed a different model for 2 different friends. The shakers do what they want, without getting serious with sound. One guy uses a primitive plate amp pushing 4 of them and he runs the amp into clipping almost constantly on big impact effects. I can tell that something's not right, with the amp clipping, but it doesn't bother him at all and the shakers, rated at 75W, are still going strong at the rated power and the amp clipping like crazy. You will be fine with 3dB of headroom before clipping.


J_ROCK's idea would be great, also.
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« Last Edit: 02/04/06 at 18:54:14 by DirtDawg »  
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #122 - 02/06/06 at 11:56:08
 
Thanks guys, I think I'll go with DirtDawgs way for now. Have been on a spending spree recently, and need to chill out. (havn't told you about the Xbox360 that's coming this week). I assume total ohms could be checked with a DVOM after wiring is complete, just before installing wires to amp or receiver? When we talk about a "4 ohm load", is this a measureable number, or is it theoretical?

Is there an industry standard for guage wiring (output side of amp) versus wattage?  Wondering if I've got enough.... Does it hold true for shakers as well? Could 'Romex' (12 - 14 guage household wiring) be used for speakers? I have plenty and wouldn't mind using it for the HWK since it may end up 30 feet from the amp (30 feet in wiring, not as 'the crow flies'.)

Roll of film is finished, need to have developed. Will show you what I did in center chamber for driver bracing. Would also like to show you a picture of my screen wall.

Sorry to hear about your neighbors, 60.

Bob
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60ndown
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #123 - 02/06/06 at 14:34:46
 
haveing 900 wrms available for a sub doesnt mean it has to be loud all the time, it means than when a 'demanding' piece is to be played, there is ample headroom to reproduce it effortlessly.
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Bob
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #124 - 02/06/06 at 14:44:33
 
...... without distortion.

amen

Bob
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Wreckinthehouse
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #125 - 02/08/06 at 01:27:28
 
I run 2-dual loaded Hw's with Peavey Black Widows in them. These are used for indoor DJ jobs and I run them on A Peavey 2600 amp 4 ohm bridged. The Compliments never stop and competitors sp-118's cant come close in sound quality. I do have a slight problem though, and it is that i cannot hear when the speakers begin to distort. I'm at the mercy of the speaker God's on this board to tell me if there is a different design (BESIDES A HUMONGUS IMPERIAL) that would serve me better. I await oh mighty ones!
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Adrian D.
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #126 - 02/08/06 at 05:44:03
 
as far as i know, the closest decware product to the imperial would be the quad loaded hwk-18 (im not the speaker God you may expect to answer...i'm just speaking from what i've read on the forum).
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« Last Edit: 02/08/06 at 05:45:32 by adi_ro »  
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Wreckinthehouse
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #127 - 02/09/06 at 01:04:54
 
every little bit helps. Has anyone perfected the the scaling for a quad loaded 18" HW?
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Adrian D.
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #128 - 02/09/06 at 05:52:04
 
i remember someone said he remodeled the hwk18...but the plans contain it scaled, so i guess you could use them...
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Bob
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #129 - 02/10/06 at 21:26:17
 
Four days, no response for reply #122?  Must have been reeeaally asinine question I asked??

Bob
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« Last Edit: 02/10/06 at 21:27:37 by Bob »  
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J_Rock
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #130 - 02/10/06 at 22:04:54
 
Nope, it looks like we all got sidetracked by the HWK vs. IMP thing...

i d k the answer, but do you have pictures?
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DirtDawg
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #131 - 02/10/06 at 22:36:23
 
Get this quick, Bob!

Nobody wants to make a statement about proper cabling for speakers on a forum! There will be 20 right answers and everyone will argue about who's more right. So, forget it!

With that out of the way, 12 GA Romex will work just fine for your shakers and your HWK. I have used it for years inside boxes and for short runs.

BTW less that 50' is a short run in pro sound, where the bulk of my experience is from. BUT I usually will run a ~100' run of cable for testing, then replace the speaker cable with a short piece and bring the amp over with a 12 GA cable for power. That's one of the things you can get away with when you don't have to live there, too. Smiley
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Bob
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #132 - 02/10/06 at 22:36:24
 
Yes, I have pictures.  Need to reinstall scanner software on Dell machine after the catastrophic failure recently (I created trying to install dual monitor output for projector). Also been playing with new Xbox360. I know a lot of you guys are not into gaming, but you should see todays High definition graphics on a 140" widescreen with an optical audio output on 7.1 surround. It'll make you a kid again. (Which is another reason scanner isn't fixed)

Will scan pictures this weekend. May have to post on Monday at work since I still can't post on this website at home.

(Never posted pic before, that'll be a whole new ...  :'( )

Got the shakers, but seating still not here.... Roll Eyes

Bob
Bye all,  have a good weekend. Time to clock out.
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« Last Edit: 02/10/06 at 22:57:24 by Bob »  
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Bob
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #133 - 02/10/06 at 22:42:42
 
DirtDawg, .... Understood about the ensuing melee over wire quality... Sorry, .. knew that, .. forgot, seen too many lives lost over that.  :-X

Nice to know I can be a cheep @55 on some cables though.

Thank you
Bob
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DirtDawg
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #134 - 02/10/06 at 23:12:49
 
I just think that 12GA Romex will get you 95% of the way to perfection for speaker cables in most cases. To get a couple more % you will need a home improvement loan first. And IF anyone seriously thinks that your fanny can tell the difference between 12GA Romex and the best solid Ag/braided/shielded/WTF fancy cable in your shaker application, just laugh it off and tell the story to your grandkids. Grin

I won't be the first to spill blood over cabling issues!
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« Last Edit: 02/10/06 at 23:14:05 by DirtDawg »  
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J_Rock
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #135 - 02/11/06 at 00:13:31
 
DD is exactly right, too many opinions on that subject for some of us to actually say somethign abou it.

Not to mention I can't determine CAT5 from Gold Cryoed super conductive ultra linear phase coherent spliced twisted pair speaker wire.

The main thing you will notice is where the wire goes though.

I can honestly say running wire in the walls through exsisting 120VAC conduit is a no-go on quality control.

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DirtDawg
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #136 - 02/11/06 at 01:33:41
 
[quote author=Bob  link=1137542099/120#122 date=1139226968]..... I assume total ohms could be checked with a DVOM after wiring is complete, just before installing wires to amp or receiver? When we talk about a "4 ohm load", is this a measureable number, or is it theoretical? ...... Bob [/quote]

Sorry, Bob, I just realized you asked 2 questions. 4 ohms is real and measurable, not just theoretical, but more properly called "nominal". That just means that since they have to call it something we can all agree to call it 4 ohms. It will only measure an actual 4 ohm impedance at certain frequencies while operating, but it can vary widely at different frequencies.

If you put you meter across the speaker terminals you will not measure 4 ohms. Your meter alone, without some other equipment hooked up also, cannot measure impedance. You will get a measurement of DC resistance, which is usually a little less than nominal impedance. If I was going to make a SWAG it would be around 3.2 to 3.6 ohms measuring with just an ohm meter for a 4 ohm driver load.


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« Last Edit: 02/11/06 at 01:40:36 by DirtDawg »  
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Bob
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #137 - 02/13/06 at 13:29:06
 
Good SWAG Dawg, it's actually 3.1 Ohms measured at the terminal connectors on the enclosure.

Have pictures scanned, but for the life of me can't figure out how to get them here.....

Used about 30' of 14 guage romex to sub in back of room. Seems to work ok using my highly trained ears lol  ::) Roll Eyes

J_Rock,  what did you mean by ...." I can honestly say running wire in the walls through exsisting 120VAC conduit is a no-go on quality control. " ??

Are you talking about running romex speaker wire next to a 120v romex? If so, I understand how this would be a bad thing.

Can anybody HELP ME get the  :o Shocked pictures on here !!

Thanks  ;) Bob
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J_Rock
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #138 - 02/13/06 at 14:24:21
 
yeah, any time you have speaker wires running near a large alternating current, probably a bad idea, so don't go into the walls next to the power wire.

For pictures, I use Photobucket, but www.tinypic.com is nice.

Just upload the picture from your computer and they will spit out a link for you, copy the one that looks like:

[ i m g ] http://whatever [ / i m g ]  (no spaces.)  
-paste it in the post: that will put the actual picture in the post.

Otherwise, copy the http:// one and paste that into post for a clickable link to the photos.

-JRock
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DirtDawg
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #139 - 02/13/06 at 14:35:44
 
[quote author=Bob  link=1137542099/135#137 date=1139837346].......Can anybody HELP ME get the  :o Shocked pictures on here !!

Thanks  ;) Bob
[/quote]
It's actually very easy, Bob. First you will need to have them hosted on a server somewhere. I have used Image Shack before. It's a free service and there are many others available.

I always resize them first to 640x480, but slightly larger won't hurt as long as it's not too wide to fit on a standard page.
Open the host website, browse your hard drive to find the pics, upload them, make a note of the URL, or just drag-n-drop. There will be several options. I use the direct link to the image, unless I need to show a hi-res. In that case use the thumbnail option.

Open a message/reply box, use the buttons above the smileys to quickly enter codes that work with the forum software. Click "Insert Image" and you'll have a set of brackets apppear. Place the URL of the hosted pic between the sets of brackets. Use the preview to make sure it's right. Posting lots of pics from your HD takes a while.

I have used IrfanView for a couple of years for quick image editing and correction when I want fast and don't need Photoshop quality, It's free, too.

All that sounds very involved, but after you do it a couple of times, you won't even think about it. Worst case scenario: hit the HELP button above.
Smiley

MOD: I see J_ROCK beat me again. Can you tell how helpful we all are?
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« Last Edit: 02/13/06 at 14:51:52 by DirtDawg »  
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Bob
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #140 - 02/13/06 at 14:43:46
 
How helpful !  Damn DD.

You guys are terrific. Will check out those site. I've seen some that are just horrible / not user friendly. Viewing somebodys pics on some of these sites are a pain. Havnt seen image shack or tinypic. Seen photobucket before. Didn't know these things are free though.

Thank you guys very much...

Bob
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« Last Edit: 02/13/06 at 15:40:08 by Bob »  
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60ndown
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #141 - 02/14/06 at 13:57:01
 
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60ndown
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #142 - 02/14/06 at 13:57:51
 
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60ndown
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #143 - 02/14/06 at 13:58:30
 
god knows how they calculated internal volume  ;)
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Bob
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #144 - 02/14/06 at 14:13:20
 
Ok, got an account with "Webshots", uploaded the pictures. I can view them on the site, but they are not 'public' yet for some reason.... Maybe the pictures have to be 'reviewed' before they let they out for the public to see? You know checking for porn ?? obsenity ??

Bob

Does this work for anybody? Should be an album with 5 pictures.
http://community.webshots.com/user/XBobJacksonX
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Bob
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #145 - 02/14/06 at 21:39:54
 
Hey, whatda' know, the link works......

Bob
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J_Rock
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #146 - 02/14/06 at 22:32:53
 
Very nice!

For bracing the tw drivers together, what is holding those pieces of wood?
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60ndown
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #147 - 02/14/06 at 23:03:31
 
bob,
not sure if its the pic, but it looks to me like your end chambers are different sizes?

that wont be good.
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DirtDawg
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #148 - 02/15/06 at 02:36:30
 
Nice job, Bob!
I like the way you braced the drivers together. You'll have to give us some closeups of that operation. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
Since we've already polluted your thread with unecessary blather (THE term of the day!), you need to tell us more about the webshots membership. I've often wondered if it would be worth doing, but I'm concerned about putting their software on my machine. I like to run a pretty clean box.
Tell me why you chose webshots.


MOD: ....... maybe it makes more sense without the typos .......
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« Last Edit: 02/15/06 at 13:58:31 by DirtDawg »  
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Adrian D.
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #149 - 02/15/06 at 13:15:32
 
you said you were going to buy the dvc version of the dayton, right ?
the subs in the pic look like the svc version...
the dvc version has better specs if i remember....
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-130 are you using these ?
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« Last Edit: 02/15/06 at 13:18:06 by adi_ro »  
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Bob
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #150 - 02/16/06 at 11:47:15
 
J_Rock, Thank you.  I was afraid the wood might rattle loose and fall into a driver so I though some bracing was in order.  The 1X2 mdf between the drivers is slightly press fit before final tightening of the drivers and glued with Gorilla Glue. As anal retentive as I can get sometimes about 'beefing things up' I remained true-to-form; Get this... I stapled a heavy gauge nylon string to one of the pieces of wood (at this point in time it hasn't occurred to me yet the proximity my METAL stapler would be to the magnet) then about four times I tightly wound the string around the base of the wood against the magnet base and stapled the end. Since that still wasn't enough I though I'd be a good idea, since Gorilla Glue expands, to coat the string with it. The wood is pushed up against a small dome in the center of the Dayton. Seems very sturdy, just don't ask to change driver orientation......easily.

60ndown, it's not a very good picture from a perspective standpoint, but that driver assembly was centered. I spent a painful amount of time agonizing the perfection of that very point.

DirtDawg, Thank you. I'm not sure I can get a camera in there any more. I did make a 6" access square (acoustically transparent) but not sure if I'd get a good photo sticking the lens in a dark hole.  ( insert joke here ) and yes, Blather is going for word of the week if Sam has his way... As far as Webshots go, It seems ok to me. Haven't found any ad/spyware yet lurking on my machine. However I occationally get a small window that pops up by the clock telling me about new daily pictures I can view, but you should be able to turn that off. I chose it based on a recommendation of one of my customers at work. He saw my frustration, and said he had used them with no problems. He caught me in a weak moment and while visiting the site I decided to go for it.

Adrian D., Yes part # 295-130. These are what I've got.

Seating will be here Tuesday !

Shakers are wired. Yes with 12 guage Romex about 30', then 14 guage RCA wire (premium?) from Aura to Aura.  Couldn't resist, so I wheeled up my PC chair and....well....you know the end of that story. So now I now have a wooden rocking chair for my temporary PC chair. Roll Eyes
Very cool things these Aura's are.

Bob
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« Last Edit: 02/16/06 at 11:50:29 by Bob »  
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Bob
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #151 - 02/21/06 at 14:23:46
 
Wife called from home seating has arrived !   Cheesy Cheesy

At work now, 9 more hours before I can go home... Angry Roll Eyes Undecided Cry

Bob

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60ndown
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #152 - 02/21/06 at 23:41:50
 
new seats must be comfortable? where are you?
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Bob
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #153 - 02/22/06 at 11:54:17
 
60, unsure if you mean where I live, (just south of St. Louis MO), or if you mean where I was when she called (working at the Chevrolet dealership).

Yes, these may be the most comfortable seats I've ever sat in. Tried them out last night. WONDERFUL. The only down side; a wine glass isn't real steady in the built in cup holders. Will need to DIY something there.....

Bob

p.s. now I can concentrate on acustics now that I've introduced the extra large bass traps,  LOL..
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60ndown
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #154 - 02/22/06 at 13:41:36
 
maybe you can start drinking your wine from a 'big gulp' container like the rest of us Smiley
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Bob
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #155 - 02/22/06 at 17:16:27
 
I was thinking about one of those hats with the built in cupholder.  ;D Oh yea baby.....

Bob
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Rap
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #156 - 02/22/06 at 19:02:35
 
[quote author=Bob  link=1137542099/150#151 date=1140531826]Wife called from home seating has arrived !   Cheesy Cheesy

At work now, 9 more hours before I can go home... Angry Roll Eyes Undecided Cry

Bob

[/quote]

Havenīt seen that kind of emotion over T.V seating since Homer Simpson Smiley
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Bob
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #157 - 02/22/06 at 19:46:32
 
#1: I'm easily amused.
#2: I'm easily impressed.
#3: I have the same level of exitement over things like this as my 7 year old son does. (he's very impressed with me. That's all I need in life  ;D )
#4: furniture factory made me wait 7 weeks for delivery (raises anticipation level).
#5: It's not just the tv, it's one of the final pieces to complete the room (yea, like it'll ever be 'done'.)
#6: Not a fan of the Simpsons, but Homer's got his attributes.
#8: Don't tell me YOU don't get exited over just another "radio".   Smiley
#9: 140" diag front projection is NOT just a tv.  :-X

You don't fool me Rap..... I see the little kid in there.

Bob
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60ndown
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #158 - 02/23/06 at 03:14:29
 
im excited about cutting some lengths of 5 inch plastic pipe and playing

'i wonder how long these ports should be'??

and i mean excited  :D Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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Bob
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #159 - 02/23/06 at 11:49:32
 
DirtDawg, about that webshots membership, still have found no evidence of adware, or spyware. However, my desktop is changing everyday to their "picture of the day", it changes on it's own, can't find webshots setting to turn the S.O.B.  OFF!

Bob
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Bob
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #160 - 03/03/06 at 12:17:05
 
Channel 'A' blown on amp  >:(

We'll see how "Music Supply Center" handles warranty claims.
Will have more pics soon. (Have nothing else to do, listening to a system with no amp won't be keeping me busy.... Roll Eyes) Might as well take some pictures.

Bob
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« Last Edit: 03/03/06 at 12:17:42 by Bob »  
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J_Rock
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #161 - 03/03/06 at 15:48:58
 
How exactly are you running your amp when it blew the channel?  We may be able to help avoid another incident in the future...
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Bob
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #162 - 03/03/06 at 21:29:34
 
I did not noticed when it stopped working (that channel was for the shakers, and my butt was not in the seat).  I had wired the shakers, REwired the sub (from bridge to 'B'), made sure everything was working. Then proceded to play with sub location. At one point I had sat down and noticed no vibs in my seat. No LED on the amp for that channel. oops. I do remember one hellova static shock when I touched the gain level....hmmm  ::)  That would do it. Now...let THAT be a lesson to ya. And to think some of us were worried about hot swapping wires. We didn't talk about releasing your 'charge' before you touch your equipment.

Bob
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J_Rock
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #163 - 03/03/06 at 21:48:27
 
LOL, a grounding plate down the side of the equipment cabinet for you to ground yourself before turning any knobs.

How did you have the shakers wired? cause it could be that...
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Bob
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #164 - 03/03/06 at 22:03:35
 
Here's how they are wired.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/series%20parallel.pdf

Ok, in my mind I've installed a ground strap, next run it to house plumbing? Run a led from every component chassis to this strap?

Bob

How about a humidifier set to 80% he he,..... Roll Eyes
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J_Rock
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #165 - 03/03/06 at 22:23:52
 
Lol, I was just pictureing the equipment rack with a metal strip down the side for you to touch before ever turning or pressing a button.
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Bob
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #166 - 03/06/06 at 18:00:04
 
ZZZZAAAP !
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Adrian D.
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #167 - 03/06/06 at 18:21:31
 
the "on" led on channel b on my amp died after 5 days of agony. but the channel is intact, works like a charm.
weird, static charge from your body busted the amp....
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Bob
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #168 - 03/07/06 at 11:46:15
 
Well, I'm not 100% sure that's what happened. But....who knows? If that's what did it, it's a piss poor chassis design. If that's NOT how it happened, then I've got a 5 week old broken component, shouldn't have happened either way. IMO.

Emailed Music Supply Center Friday morning about possible warranty claim, still no response.

Bob

p.s. You may be able to open yours up and check, may just be a faulty LED? Fixed for $1.00 at Radio Shack??
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« Last Edit: 03/07/06 at 11:48:09 by Bob »  
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Adrian D.
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #169 - 03/07/06 at 13:00:59
 
i don't want to open it, because i have 2 years warranty. i don't want to send it to warranty, because i bought it from another country and shipping would take time.
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #170 - 03/07/06 at 15:01:49
 
Understood

Bob
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #171 - 04/17/06 at 17:05:56
 
60ndown, Thanks for the link to "tinypics.com" to put pictures of my home theater on. However I don't think they and I are speaking about the same kind of "Big Massive Driver".   Undecided

But I do have more pics of my toys for those interested....

http://community.webshots.com/myphotos?action=viewAllPhotos&albumID=549522535&se...

Bob

p.s. Anybody think Decware forum should have another topic; "Pictures of your listening room/theater"? I'd be curious to see what others have done. It would give a visual to the name so to speak.  ;D
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