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Amp to make Dayton's happy (Read 31759 times)
Sean
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #90 - 01/27/06 at 15:31:02
 
Obviously the volume change ahead of the woofer must be equal to the volume change behind it, so from that perspective there is no difference between mounting a woofer magnet in or magnet out; however, compliance differences will occur as a result of the cone surround and spider geometry.  For example, a rubber surround which is a half-circle cross section will not deform the same way when the cone moves out versus in - the non linearities are slight in a well designed driver, but for a matched pair of drivers, isobaric mounting averages the non-linearities in each direction so the effective compliance is the same regardless of the direction of cone movement.  Where mounting direction matters is when using drivers as direct radiators, as opposed to in bandpass or horn loaded enclosures, since the shape of the driver cone affects how the sound disperses, and having a metal basket and motor assembly right in front of your driver is obviously going to be detrimental from that perspective.

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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #91 - 01/30/06 at 13:40:57
 
Happy Monday morning.

Hwk is finished except for cosmetics. Will have pictures once I get the rest of the pictures on the roll taken.

Things I noticed this weekend:

#1  Legion LSA-900 is a professional piece of equipment. NOT for use in an exposed rack system in a home theater setting. It's LOUD, the two fans in the rear run all of the time. The exhaust is through the grill on the front that runs the entire width of the face of the unit. It's as loud as my microwave. One other minor issue, the blue power indicator LED on the amp projects a perfect beam of high intensity blue light, right into my eyes from 10' away. Almost like it was done on purpose.

#2  My God it's huge. The HWk with 2 15" Dayton's sounds very good. However, I would have thought, with the wattage I have, you would have 'felt' the LFE. This is not to say that the unit hasn't shown me the resonant frequency of various things around my room, along with my wifes tolorance level. But you don't get the "punch in the chest" I was hoping for. Quality of sound is excellent. Needs more tweaking with settings though. Did I mention it's huge? ..... and heavy.

After $450, I'm relatively happy. I thought it would be, .... well ...... more. Especially considering the size of the enclosure, size of drivers, ect..  I don't believe the fine tuning will result in the effect I had hoped, may be I hoped for too much. I'll play after work this week, but will lock myself back in the cave this weekend. Maybe a revelation will strike me as to what I've screwed up.

Bob

p.s. Have I said how big it is?
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60ndown
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #92 - 01/30/06 at 14:43:04
 
i also noticed the quality of the bass the hwk produces was much better than i thought it would be. you might find you get more of the 'car audio' bass in your chest effect with 'different placement' i suppose your level of happiness will be dependant on what you prefer, 'bass in chest' or lots of 'quality bass in room', if you find your un happy with the hwk in a few weeks just buy a good 10 in sub and strap it too your chest dureing playback! seriously try the hwk in different locations in the room. and that amp of yours would drive me nuts! as loud as a microwave?  its gotta go back.
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #93 - 01/30/06 at 14:55:20
 
Amp noise WILL be fixed !  I havn't spent this much time, money, blood on this room to f Shockedk it up.

Doubt they will take it back, seems to work well, happy with it's performance. It'll be "acustically hidden" somehow / somewhere.

Bob
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« Last Edit: 01/30/06 at 15:07:23 by Bob »  
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DirtDawg
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #94 - 01/30/06 at 15:05:40
 
[quote author=Bob  link=1137542099/90#91 date=1138628457]Happy Monday morning.

Hwk is finished except for cosmetics.


But you don't get the "punch in the chest" I was hoping for. Quality of sound is excellent. Needs more tweaking with settings though. Bob

p.s. Have I said how big it is?
[/quote]

You built a subwoofer that wears make-up? Lips Sealed

Hi, Bob,

Punch in the chest is not really bass, and LFE is not really about punch. I may have misguided you if you want "punch". I recommended to place your drivers in the lowest tuning, which would take away some punch and give you more gut disruptive pressure effects. All that stuff moving around and rattling is a sign that something is happening that's powerful.

Before you go too far tuning I would live with it for a few days and get used to what it does with many different programs and goof with the placement a little.

You will find that moving the cabinet will have quite an effect on the output, even turning it in the same spot can change everything. After getting tired of moving it around, you can try changing the way the drivers mount inside to re-tune it to a (higher if you want more punch) range you like better.

Another point to take into account before you do any tuning at all is that the drivers need to break-in a little. So, for your new drivers I suggest you just play them for a few days and see what happens, then change stuff, one thing at a time, to improve your experience.

As far as your amp goes, chech to see if there is a "speed" switch on the fans. That light is designed to be OBVIOUS in a smoky room up to 100' or more away. You can always put tape over it. I like to use some of that make-up you mentioned earlier. After I'm satisfied I won't need warranty service I use nail polish to hide those annoying lights, but don't tell anyone.
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« Last Edit: 01/30/06 at 15:18:39 by DirtDawg »  
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #95 - 01/30/06 at 15:41:19
 
DirtDawg, what I'm going for is a rosy blush effect, how much Cover Girl foundation will it take to cover the enclosure? Will it need 2 coats?

Yea, I'll play this week at night after work. Won't make any major adjustments. May install wheels on the damn thing so I can move it around.

I sold my sectional to make way for the new stuff that should be here any day now. Realize this will impact acustics. That's another reason I'm not getting too anal about fine tuning, the lack of a big cushy bass trap I can sit on...... Will place it behind the seating position to hear what that's like, but it's futile to do that now.

I've heard of people playing sweeps for 2-3 days to break-in new drivers, what do you think?

As far as output, I work with 'one of those' car audio guys  :) he's got several cd's with tones and sweeps. Things rattle in the room when there is very little volume. Which seems like a good thing (not the rattling of course) but not quite the intensity I thought this monster would create. Are you saying it's a trade off between VERY low hz, and the 'feeling' I'm wanting?

Bob
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60ndown
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #96 - 01/30/06 at 22:36:13
 
[quote author=Bob  link=1137542099/90#95 date=1138635679]. Are you saying it's a trade off between VERY low hz, and the 'feeling' I'm wanting?

Bob [/quote]

no  :-X, its the difference between what it 'should' sound like and what it 'does' sound like. a dinosaur takeing a step 100 feet away would have a very distinct sound, as does a hammond organ and a fender precision bass.the idea is to set up our rigs, so they reproduce "faithfully" the origional sound.trouble is with so many subwoofers is that you would not be able to tell what kind of instrument it was, or exactly how heavy the creature is, because EVERYTHING SOUNDS EXACTLY THE PHUKING THE SAME. its very exciteing to have a sub that will make it obvious when your listening to a bass guitar or human hands drumming on a table  ;D  set all your gains to FLAT. put on a very familiar disk (music) play at medium levels and adjust sub amp until it feels / sounds good in the main listening seat.no bass boost, no loudness, no eq no nada, just a clean signal amplified well and into the hwk! when set up like this the onlything you should ever have to adjust is the 'level or volume' of the sub. if something your playing sounds dryer or sloppyer or harder or deeper its because its 'recorded' that way, and the fact that you can hear the difference is a good thing Cheesy
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DirtDawg
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #97 - 01/31/06 at 00:23:42
 
Bob,

Like 60 has pointed out you don't have to trade one for the other. But to try to explain what we are both talking about, you may have heard many subs that couldn't do anything except punch you in the chest. That goes for way over half of the subs out there. Even the ones that can get low many times have such an exagerrated upper bass that they just sound punchy.

Generally the "punch" frequencies are in the upper part of the bass, like 60Hz to 100 Hz. They have a hard sound no matter what causes them. The lower 40Hz and below range has a softer feel to it. Just as strong and powerful to the body, but very different sounding. They are both part of the sound you want to hear, but you shouldn't think of one being better than the other. The perfect sub will play all of it's frequencies at the same level.

The idea of using a familiar CD to set it up is probably the best way. Forget test tones until you are more familiar with what they can do, scientifically, for you. You need some other test equipment to make use of test tones anyway. Once you get it all set up right, though test tones can be a blast.

You don't need to do anything nutty to break in the drivers. Just use them for a few days and they will be mostly there.
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« Last Edit: 01/31/06 at 00:25:45 by DirtDawg »  
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #98 - 01/31/06 at 11:52:04
 
60, DirtDawg,   I respect that very much. My goal is quality, always has been. I'll never change that. Nothing better than to sit in a perfectly quiet room listening to well recorded music on a decent system. A religious experience all in itself.  But, the main goal of this system (95%) is for home theater. So when that dinosaur takes a step, I want to feel it too. I mean a nice solid rumble in my chair. When that rocket takes off or the volcano blows, I want more rumble. But occasionally in a movie sound track, it may be necessary to have even more.

Here's what been in the back of my mind, almost since I started building this room.   I was in the listening room at Ultimate Electronics watching a demo of a front projection setup. I started paying more attention to the sub, because you could feel it (in a tactful way) when it was necessary to feel it. After watching for awhile, I got up and looked at the price, $1600.00.  Not on my budget for a sub. So I started down the DIY road. I figured I was half way there, I've got woodworking skills, just don't know crap about how to turn a bare driver into a religious experience, ...... an art form.

DirtDawg, refering back to your signature, I would replace 'music' with 'movie'. It's an escape from reality, a drug.

As far as the test tones go, No, I wasn't listening to them pretending to know what I was doing. My point was to listen to some audio tracks that had a LOT a bass. These are tracks that the car audio guys use during competition. All spl's and db's. Not my listening preference. Just playing with my new toy.... Some of the disks had tones too, so I was more, "playing" with them, than anything else.

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60ndown
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #99 - 01/31/06 at 14:14:58
 
you could always fit a couple of these to your listening chair? maybe the system you demoed at the store had a couple fitted somewhere????????


http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=299-028
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HT-EXT
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #100 - 01/31/06 at 14:46:45
 
What up BOB? When I first started out I was using two HWK15 to "feel the LFE in my chest" but the SPL was painful. Like 60 pointed out the auras are awesome for home theater. I have used auras, pros, clarks, and now buttkicker lfe and now I can't do with out them. Don't get me wrong STEVE's designs are second to none but if I understand what your after is great sound and tactical force for home theater. The SPL is too loud(for neighbors and women) so the next step is tactical. Let me know if you need any info.
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #101 - 01/31/06 at 14:53:57
 
Yea,.... been thinkin' about those. Though maybe some time down the road. Now may look more seriously. Very good price. Would be cool if I could somehow use the other channel of the amp (wired bridged now).

Hmmmmm

Bob
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HT-EXT
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #102 - 01/31/06 at 16:33:15
 
Depending on the power of the amp it is possible to run both HWK and "shakers". I run 10 auras(not the pros) off one 250w plate amp with no problems but the cooling fan is running. Auras take 30w(peak at 40Hz), pros 50w(peak at 40Hz), clarks 150w(range from 20Hz to 800Hz?), and the buttkicker 400w minimum(range from 5Hz to 200Hz). Tactical transducers work with everything from music to movies, and even the wife. Oh just so you know I can not do without my HWKs either and believe me I have tried just about everything. Good Luck with your adventure into Home Theater.
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« Last Edit: 01/31/06 at 16:38:12 by Joe_Eaton »  
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Bob
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Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #103 - 01/31/06 at 16:39:44
 
Thanks HT-EXT,

The amp is a Legion LSA 900. If memory serves, it's 900 watts bridged mono. I'd be worried more about over powering the shakers. I would be getting 4 of them if I did it.

Bob
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HT-EXT
Ex Member



Re: Amp to make Dayton's happy
Reply #104 - 01/31/06 at 17:08:13
 
If you are looking at the pros over powering four should not be an issue keeping the amp cool will. Shakers draw large amounts of current to operate where a speaker seems to draw a little less. The key is blending the shakers and HWK together. If you have an elevated floor enough shakers in the couch will actual cause the floor to start resonating. All this is a hobby so make it fun.
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