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Clamshell drivers and WO size (Read 4550 times)
HT-EXT
Ex Member



Clamshell drivers and WO size
12/13/05 at 15:40:04
 
I was thinking of building a WO36 and had a few questions. First do you have to clamshell the speakers(4 drivers) directly together or can put one on each side of the baffle leaving some extra space between the woofers. Also I have read that if you go with the 36" depth (vs. 24" and up) the WO can go lower(Hz) and louder. Is this true? I know speakers will also be a factor in Hz and output. Almost everyone says build it BIG!!!.  Any help would be appreciated.
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J_Rock
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Re: Clamshell drivers and WO size
Reply #1 - 12/13/05 at 16:04:43
 
CLamshelling the drivers with a piece of wood between is a-ok.  No problems there.

ANd the WO's that I have built full size(36 x 36) outperform the 24" ones in the lower frequencies, about everything else is comparable though.  The 36 x 36 just has more impact the further down you go.  the 24 will do it, but compared to the 36 it sounds kinda hollow.  

The only way I can describe it is kinda like ice cream.  The 36 inch version is like nice cold icecream, whereas the 24 is kinda melty in the lows.  but they still taste way better than other boxes. lol.
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HT-EXT
Ex Member



Re: Clamshell drivers and WO size
Reply #2 - 12/13/05 at 17:05:52
 
THANKS JRock the info helps. I want to make sure we are on the same page. I would like to put one on the sealed chamber side and one on the ported side with the double thick speaker baffle in between. Is this set up O.k.? Do you have any suggestions for subs. I would like to keep the price between $40 to a $100 each. I like some of the Daytons but unsure of the ideal numbers for the WO36 enclosure. (Fs/Vas/Xmax/Qts)                       THANKS







 











 
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« Last Edit: 12/13/05 at 17:20:53 by Joe_Eaton »  
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60ndown
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Re: Clamshell drivers and WO size
Reply #3 - 12/13/05 at 17:16:28
 
[quote author=HT-EXT  link=1134492004/0#2 date=1134493552]THANKS JRock the info helps. Do you have any suggestions for subs. I would like to keep the price between $40 to a $100 each. I like some of the Daytons but unsure of the ideal numbers for the WO36 enclosure (Fs/Vas/Xmax/Qts).  











 THANKS [/quote]

the wo works with almost any good subwoofer, the wo32 is more picky.get 4 good 10s and get ready for some serious bass. Grin in fact if you have alsmost $400 to spend, buy 2 of steves/decwares 10" drivers.
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HT-EXT
Ex Member



Re: Clamshell drivers and WO size
Reply #4 - 12/13/05 at 17:47:43
 
Appreciate the info 60. Do you think two of Steve's 10" would out perform four Classic Daytons or four Series II. I am looking at both but when I start an experiment it is nice to start on a budget(Classic Daytons) and then move up from that point if needed. Would Steve's 10" make a huge difference for the cash?     THANKS
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60ndown
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Re: Clamshell drivers and WO size
Reply #5 - 12/13/05 at 18:07:09
 
[quote author=HT-EXT  link=1134492004/0#4 date=1134496063]Appreciate the info 60. Do you think two of Steve's 10" would out perform four Classic Daytons or four Series II. I am looking at both but when I start an experiment it is nice to start on a budget(Classic Daytons) and then move up from that point if needed. Would Steve's 10" make a huge difference for the cash?     THANKS [/quote]

steve KNOWS audio. i have never actually heard  his drivers, but i bet they are much better (dryer, faster, deeper) than most subs available.so i suppose it depends what you want. you want the best sound possible? go with the decwares, you want to save money and still sound good , try something else.personally i dont see subwoofers as an experiment, i decide what it is i want and then go get it. the wo is a fantastic desighn that needs NO MODIFICATION to produse tons of quality bass.
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60ndown
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Re: Clamshell drivers and WO size
Reply #6 - 12/13/05 at 18:08:26
 
what will you be useing your wo for? car? home? band? disco?
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60ndown
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Re: Clamshell drivers and WO size
Reply #7 - 12/13/05 at 18:11:42
 
[quote author=HT-EXT  link=1134492004/0#4 date=1134496063]Appreciate the info 60. Do you think two of Steve's 10" would out perform four Classic Daytons or four Series II. [/quote]

out perform? you want volume or quality? what kind of 'performance' are you after?
either way probably yes.
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HT-EXT
Ex Member



Re: Clamshell drivers and WO size
Reply #8 - 12/13/05 at 19:27:39
 
I know this is going to sound crazy but I plan on using the WO36 in conjunction with my HWK15s to try and get the ultimate blend of bass mostly for Home Theater. Of course music and entertaining friends will surely be in the picture. I was looking for something with high SPL and low bass to put directly in front me that could be mistaken for furniture. My HWK15s are locate behind me and have tendency to be overwhelming. I looking to match or come close to their performance.


   THANKS  
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« Last Edit: 12/13/05 at 19:34:07 by Joe_Eaton »  
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HT-EXT
Ex Member



Re: Clamshell drivers and WO size
Reply #9 - 12/13/05 at 19:32:38
 
OH YEAH 60 can I put the woofers in opposite chambers with the speaker baffle between them instead of directly clamshelling them together.
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« Last Edit: 12/13/05 at 19:34:55 by Joe_Eaton »  
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BigAir
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Re: Clamshell drivers and WO size
Reply #10 - 12/13/05 at 22:05:04
 
The WO is very forgiving as far as drivers.  With that said, there are a few things that you should understand.  The smaller that you make the sealed chamber, the higher it will be tuned.  As far as sound quality and output, if you use drivers with a higher fs, you can actually get some gain by using a smaller WO because they will be working towards a common goal.  If your drivers have a lower fs, there's no question that the bigger WO would give you the best output.  That's why Steve suggests modeling it as a 4th order BP to really zero in on the sealed chamber.  IMHO clamshelling can yield great results as long as you have enough power and wire them up properly for your amp.  It probably wouldn't matter much, but I would bolt them directly together without any space between.  However, that would again depend on your drivers.  Sometimes that's impossible because of surround sizes.  Remember, clamshelling will make the sealed chamber seem larger and should lower the tuning a little.  From my experience it will give the whole box more depth and speed which is always a good thing.  At the moment, my WO uses some 10" Dayton Quatros.  Great speaker for the price and sounds fantastic in a WO.
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60ndown
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Re: Clamshell drivers and WO size
Reply #11 - 12/14/05 at 00:38:21
 
[quote author=HT-EXT  link=1134492004/0#8 date=1134502059]I know this is going to sound crazy but I plan on using the WO36 in conjunction with my HWK15s to try and get the ultimate blend of bass mostly for Home Theater. Of course music and entertaining friends will surely be in the picture. I was looking for something with high SPL and low bass to put directly in front me that could be mistaken for furniture. My HWK15s are locate behind me and have tendency to be overwhelming. I looking to match or come close to their performance.


   THANKS   [/quote]

in that case i would say your going down the wrong road, i built a h.w. with 2 x older 15" jbls, it is amazing. i have no doubt that a 'working' h.w.has the ability to make people litterally 'jump out of their seats' with IMPACT.but its an odd desighn and i guess its possible that a small mistake in constuction or driver selection / orientation can make it not work. before you spend more money try unplugging one of your hws, and experiment with just 1 in the room, try several different locations within the room. if your sub bass is already overwhelming adding another subwoofer will just compound your problem.
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HT-EXT
Ex Member



Re: Clamshell drivers and WO size
Reply #12 - 12/14/05 at 11:45:15
 
KILLER INFO Big Air that is exactly what I needed to hear. My set up revolves around Home Theater mostly. Also all my stuff is in a concrete bunker(basement) and space is limited. 60 let explain a little more. The HWKS are behind me because there is not any other place to put them that they would not be in the way. There is a table in front of my chair with an old RCA 12" powered sub beside it pointed directly at me. When I think of Home Theater I think of a perfect blend of all the sounds(bass/mids/highs) just like music. The RCA is no match for one HWK let alone two. I not talking SPL but low bass response. My goal is to replace that table and RCA with the WO36. My main problems are limited space and money (whats the chances of that). I do not want any speaker(LFE) in my system to be louder than another. Of course when talking bass that is already a loud subject with HWK. By adjusting amps and crossovers I would like everything (HWK/WO36) to blend together. THANKS for the info 60.
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« Last Edit: 12/14/05 at 15:09:11 by Joe_Eaton »  
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HT-EXT
Ex Member



Re: Clamshell drivers and WO size
Reply #13 - 12/14/05 at 13:11:33
 
Big Air what do you mean by IMHO calmshelling because I am a stup. Also how many Quatros do you use and what amp? What do you consider to be a low fs for a 10" woofer?THANKS
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« Last Edit: 12/14/05 at 13:13:47 by Joe_Eaton »  
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gexter
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Re: Clamshell drivers and WO size
Reply #14 - 12/14/05 at 13:16:11
 
sounds like fun
My two cents is agreeing that the WO is forgiving and extremely flexible in adjustments.

I have not built a big HWK like some have so all I know is what I read. I find it on the little ones inflexible and unforgiving to the same extent as the the WO.

Love the darn things.

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DirtDawg
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Re: Clamshell drivers and WO size
Reply #15 - 12/14/05 at 14:20:40
 
[quote author=HT-EXT  link=1134492004/0#13 date=1134565893]Big Air what do you mean by IMHO calmshelling because I am a stup. [/quote]

I found this on computerhope.com one day. I love the name. If you have a computer, you hope it works.
Check it out.  :)

Concrete makes heavy bass really harsh. You might need to use some bass traps to help control reflections and standing waves.

It never hurts to play around with phasing, especially if you have bass to spare.
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« Last Edit: 12/14/05 at 14:24:44 by DirtDawg »  
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HT-EXT
Ex Member



Re: Clamshell drivers and WO size
Reply #16 - 12/14/05 at 15:38:55
 
My main problem when it comes to bass enclosures is how loud will it play. For some reason I want know max SPL right off the bat knowing that I will hardly ever play it that loud. My way of thinking is that if it will put out KILLER SPL that under normal(low volume) listen it will more than adequate. Is this true? Do high output(SPL) enclosures have better low bass, speed , response, room loading even at moderate volumes. I know SPL is not everything but I have a hard time leaving it out.  All info gladly appreciated.
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DirtDawg
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Re: Clamshell drivers and WO size
Reply #17 - 12/14/05 at 17:00:23
 
[quote author=HT-EXT  link=1134492004/15#16 date=1134574735]My main problem when it comes to bass enclosures is how loud will it play........ Do high output(SPL) enclosures have better low bass, speed , response, room loading even at moderate volumes. I know SPL is not everything but I have a hard time leaving it out.  All info gladly appreciated. [/quote]
Well ..... that can be a problem, all right. I have seen the oppostite more often than not. In order to get really high SPL, many concessions are made in sound quality. For instance, most cabinet designs that support the lowest bass are somewhat less efficient in the rest of the range they work in.

As far as speed, I think of a compression driver front horn loaded cabinet, because the lowest frequencies are hitting you at the same time as the rest of the spectrum and there is no group delay at all. All ported cabinets show some group delay, which varies as the frequency changes, usually the lower the frequency the more it lags behind the mid-bass frequencies. That's why you have probably heard that sealed cabinets are cleaner and more dynamic, no delay.

Room loading can change drastically just angling a cabinet a few degrees or moving it a few inches. Where you place your subwoofer cabinet probably has more bearing on how your room is loaded than any other single factor. Adding a second source of pressure with another HWK, will not necessarily make the sound any better, but it can certainly alter the location and intensity of nulls and voids in the sound caused by standing waves. Adding, yet another with a WO complicates things even more.

Talking about response, the most perfectly flat responding driver can be made very uneven, tone-wise by placing it into the wrong cabinet and the most perfect cabinet/driver combo can have many peaks in the response in a certain room or room placement.

Another response that comes to mind is transient response and many large Xmax drivers don't do well following rapidly changing waveforms common to music. Of course with Home Theater, many people don't take clarity and sound quality seriously and a large quanty of bass becomes the quality they are looking for. As someone who watches a movie almost everyday over a fairly clean system, I can tell you that many movies don't have clean, well defined low frequency content to start with. Getting those lows off the disk and over to your listening area is not a simple game to play.

Before you get too crazy with adding more and more cabinets in the room, maybe you should try just one House Wrecker iso loaded with 4 drivers and enough power to really drive the thing, then move it around some and try different locations.
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BigAir
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Re: Clamshell drivers and WO size
Reply #18 - 12/14/05 at 23:28:58
 
[quote author=HT-EXT  link=1134492004/0#13 date=1134565893]Big Air what do you mean by IMHO calmshelling because I am a stup. Also how many Quatros do you use and what amp? What do you consider to be a low fs for a 10" woofer?THANKS
[/quote]

Sorry about that.  "IMHO" means "In My Humble Opinion".......
I would say an fs below 30 is pretty low for a 10.  Right now I'm only using 2 and they're powered by a 400 watt Kenwood amp.   but, I have experimented with clamshelling other drivers and it sounds great.  
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HT-EXT
Ex Member



Re: Clamshell drivers and WO size
Reply #19 - 12/15/05 at 17:18:55
 
No problem BigAir I'm the stup around here but I'm learning. What was the reason you went with 2 Quatros and what is your main use for the WO? Also what size did you settle with on the WO? What other set ups and speakers have you tried?
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« Last Edit: 12/15/05 at 17:20:35 by Joe_Eaton »  
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BigAir
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Re: Clamshell drivers and WO size
Reply #20 - 12/16/05 at 01:17:51
 
I sold 2 of the quatros to a friend of mine.  :'(
The rest of the system is simple stock Blazer.  The reason I went with the quatros was because they had very close specs to Steve's drivers. I can't say if they are a better deal or not because I haven't tried Steve's drivers yet. My WO is 36x30
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HT-EXT
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Re: Clamshell drivers and WO size
Reply #21 - 12/16/05 at 10:53:45
 
THANKS BigAir for the reply. I was curious to your WO's performance. I take it you are using the WO for car audio. Usually with car audio SPL contest are common. Have you ever check to see what the WO is putting out. Can you give me an idea of the SPL and how low you think your set up can go? I am very interested in the Quatro speakers and would like to have an idea of their performance. THANKS
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« Last Edit: 12/16/05 at 10:54:21 by Joe_Eaton »  
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J_Rock
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Re: Clamshell drivers and WO size
Reply #22 - 12/16/05 at 17:41:36
 
well, I don't have quattros like Big Air.  But my WO uses 2 infinity 10 inch reference series subs.  In car they will hit at least 126 db on dash with windows up.  That is at half volume.  I have never been able to meter above that point, since it was the highest mic I can find without shelling out some cash.  But I would safely assume 140 db is being hit with 800 w max power.

and as far as how low.  My WO hits 20hz 4 db down from 60hz which is where WO flattens out considerably.
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