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Imperial SO has problems, need help (Read 34306 times)
dank
Ex Member



Imperial SO has problems, need help
10/18/05 at 19:09:54
 
Hi Guys

I know a lot of you are waiting for a report on the Imperial SO I'm building and a comparison to the standard Imperial.  I got the first Imperial SO up and running, but what a disappointment!  Something is wrong!  I'm hoping someone can figure out what it is, because I can't imagine what could cause such a severe problem.  If I had to guess I'd say the speaker back radiations are contained in the sealed compression chamber (like they should be).  And the speaker front radiations are being delayed 180 degrees by the horn so the horn and the speaker are out of phase with each other and canceling big time.  I can pump a lot of watts into this thing and no sound comes out.  Here are 3 pictures that, I hope, show someone what it is that I did wrong (are you out there Steve?)
http://www.mninter.net/~kuechle/impso_1.jpg

This picture shows the front panel before the slot was cut.

http://www.mninter.net/~kuechle/impso_2.jpg

This picture shows the speaker when the front panel is removed.


http://www.mninter.net/~kuechle/impso_3.jpg

Here are some graphs I took:
http://www.mninter.net/~kuechle/1.JPG

http://www.mninter.net/~kuechle/2.JPG

http://www.mninter.net/~kuechle/3.JPG

http://www.mninter.net/~kuechle/4.JPG

http://www.mninter.net/~kuechle/5.JPG

http://www.mninter.net/~kuechle/6.JPG

http://www.mninter.net/~kuechle/7.JPG

Disregard the blue line on the graphs, its the green line that has the information.

Graphs 1 and 2 compare the new Imperial SO to the standard Imperial when driven with a sine sweep.  The peak amplitude is 10 db down for the Imperial SO, which might not be too unexpected as we are comparing 1 speaker to 2 speakers, but at 30 hz the Imperial SO is 24 db down from the standard Imperial.  Whats up with that?

Graphs 3 thru 7 all have the same, lower volume, sine sweep input.  3 is the Imperial SO as it should be.  4 is with the front cover removed.  This is the board with the Karlson shaped slot in it.  According to the graphs, this K-slot makes no difference at all!  5 is a picture of what happened when I covered up the K-slot with a solid board...higher volume by 6-7 db across the frequency range, but that nasty steep slope (looks like almost 30 db/octave to me) is still there from 20 all the way to 50 hz.

Graphs 6 and 7 are with a different speaker...pretty much the same results.

Well, I'm open to suggestions.  Right now I'm thinking how hard is it going to be to turn these guys into a second pair of standard Imperials?

DanK

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JimP
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #1 - 10/19/05 at 00:22:36
 
DanK,

Are you building from plans?

JIm P
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gexter
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #2 - 10/19/05 at 02:20:04
 
Wow that is not what I expected
my "SO" works pretty good
I will look at the pics and info later and compare it to my Hack version. I will say that mine does not have that boom that everyone associates with "bass". Mine does seem to require more power but not a whole lot more. I attributed it to a cheap car sub.

I will take a look at it later. I am just getting a start bulding a small  light table out of a trashed 17 lcd monitor. thought I would check in. Not so good buddy! got to be something simple.

Gex
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gexter
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #3 - 10/19/05 at 06:20:42
 
Hey!
Its a little hard to figure things out when I have not built a real ImpSO.
I cannot believe it is performing that bad. Maybe its a lot of little things that all together is causing grief.
But I doubt it by looking at the pics. It looks pretty good to me.
but here I go without a clue.

1.below the bottom of the dirver where it meets the front face that has the Kslot is it tight and no air blowing past.

2. at the top of the driver where the beginning of the mouth. is it big enough ( to steves specs) I think mine is close to 4 inches.

3. the slot is huge compared to my version the points are correct but the curve is pretty big compared to mine.
What I am trying to say is the opening is too big?

4. of course your sealed chamber is not leaking air
5.The driver your using is designed for a sealed enclosure?

the driver is good and wiring etc etc.
Did you try to swap dirvers?

I don,t think your feeding ( loading the horn) enough. and the imbalance is creating the cancellation. Or that is the only thing I can come up with.
I can't imagine that you did anything wrong to be honest. and Steves design is considerably differant than mine.
however I used a 12" driver and changed the dimensions and modified a Imperial corner cab

I don't think I was much help at all, but maybe I can spark a new train of thought at the very least.

Good luck and give Steve a call before you give up. sometimes if you walk away for a day or two it will come to ya.

Gexter

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Circlomanen
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #4 - 10/19/05 at 07:55:33
 
In my opinion the K-slot seems a bit large. It doesnt give the loading it should. It should direct some pressure into the horn and equalize the pressure seen by the back and front of the driver.
You have probably checked that the sealed chamber is airtight but it never hurts to do that again. Especially for leakes into the horn.

Try cover the k-slot partially so you can tune the response. (?)

Thats my five cents of thought.
Johannes.
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gexter
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #5 - 10/19/05 at 16:01:12
 
I agree with  Johannes
as that is what I was trying to say in point 3.
and about feeding / loading the horn.
gex
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dank
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #6 - 10/19/05 at 16:31:32
 
Just a couple of responces:  1)  I am working from the standard Imperial plans, the first look picture Steve posted a while back, a sketch Steve made for me at Decfest 2005 showing the differences, and a bunch of pictures I took of Steve's Imperial SO's.  2)  Everything is sealed properly and not leaking.  3)  The front board with the K-slot has a gasket under it so it seals correctly with the compression chamber.  4)  I have tried 2 different, working, speakers from 2 different manufactures.  Results were the same.  5)  I agree the K-slot seems big, but covering up parts of it doesn't seem to make much difference...hell removing the slot entirly makes no difference, and covering the slot completly does increase the output but does nothing to reduce the terrible steep rolloff below 50 hz.

Heres a question for you guys:  In the standard Imperial the output of the horn and the output of the front of the speakers MUST be in phase.  The only way to do this is for the horn to add an additional 180 degrees of phase shift to the back rediations of the speaker giving 360 degrees of total phase shift.  In the Imperial SO the horn hasn't changed, so it is still probably adding 180 degrees of shift.  Where are the other 180 degrees of phase shift comming from?  The k-slot? - I don't see how.  Is there a design flaw here?

DanK
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DirtDawg
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #7 - 10/19/05 at 17:20:06
 
[quote author=dank  link=1129662594/0#6 date=1129735892] .........................  Heres a question for you guys:  In the standard Imperial the output of the horn and the output of the front of the speakers MUST be in phase.  The only way to do this is for the horn to add an additional 180 degrees of phase shift to the back rediations of the speaker giving 360 degrees of total phase shift.  In the Imperial SO the horn hasn't changed, so it is still probably adding 180 degrees of shift.  Where are the other 180 degrees of phase shift comming from?  The k-slot? - I don't see how.  Is there a design flaw here?

DanK
[/quote]

This assumption is flawed because the original Imperial uses a vented chamber AND the horn to increase efficiency. The actual phase of the output of the horn will be different at every frequency. The horn loaded vent is so efficient that the direct driver output is almost insignificant in the bottom octave and so the phase difference between the two is also insignificant.

What happens if you correct the slot dimensions and put 2 watts or so on it and compare it to an efficient full range speaker, instead of another Imperial?
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Circlomanen
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #8 - 10/19/05 at 20:28:52
 
A wild thought crossed my mind.
What about making the sealed chamber a vented one instead.
Say tuned to 18 - 20 hz with the vents fireing into the very beginning of the horn, but with the open "coupling" of the Imp SO ?    ??? ??? ???
That will say, keep the K-slot and everything like it is now but put 4 tubes/vents from inside the previous sealed box, that fires into the horn. That should still only excite resonanses in the horn in the lowest octave and filter away everything else.
That would probably retain the high efficiency, or at least partly.(?)
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Steve Deckert
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If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 2425
Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #9 - 10/19/05 at 22:55:49
 
I am almost finisihed with the SO plans.  They will also include some pics of the actual speaker with the front panel removed.  I would hang on until I get at least the pdf file done and see what you can do to get yours a bit closer.  At the same time, what size and type box did the computer model for each of the two drivers you selected?  You need to find drivers that will hit 25Hz a sealed box of around 5 cubic feet.

Steve
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gexter
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #10 - 10/20/05 at 00:59:37
 
Mine was 4 cubic feet @ 27 Hz
I used a sealed chamber and no vent. I was going to use a bass relex Square port into the horn, when I started designing it.
I went with a basic karlson with a Imperial horn instead.

I really would like to see a real one, Still like to build one. I am not in a hurry because My hack works well. I would like a driver with a higher sensitivity instead of 86Db for my first change.

I disgarded the port loaded horn because something JohnF said a while ago. wish I could remember where in this forum it was.

So! does it have a port?

Glad Steve stopped by, So don't give up yet.

Gex
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« Last Edit: 10/20/05 at 01:01:15 by gexter »  
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Braggi
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #11 - 10/20/05 at 04:45:30
 
My thought was that you might need a driver with a lower Fs. Then Steve chimed in. Hmmmm. Worth checking out.

Thanks for letting us know how it's working out.

Hope you get it to your satisfaction soon.
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dank
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #12 - 10/20/05 at 23:25:11
 
Well, just when you start to think you know something about this field of science something happens to remind you that you really don't know much of anything at all.  After playing around with the size of the k-slot for a couple hours I decided that there was no tuning involved.  It simple doesn’t matter.  The only thing that made any difference at all was covering up the slot completely.  So, I covered it up.  Now all the energy is going into the horn.  It sounds ok, not as good as the standard Imperial, but ok.  Then as I was moving things around and swapping Imperials in and out I happened to face the boarded up Imperial SO into the corner while it was playing.  Wow.  +10 db instantly.  Clear as a bell.  Effortless bass.  I then tried facing a standard Imperial into the corner, just barley an audible improvement, no where nears as much as with the Imperial SO.  One  boarded up Imperial SO facing into the corner is sounding better than my pair of standard Imperials.  That’s one 18” speaker smoking four 18’s.  I’m rethinking my system now.  Perhaps more is not always better.

The speaker I’m using doesn’t seem to model well in a sealed 5 cubic foot box (if I’m using the s/w correctly).  Perhaps some nice person out there can check my results to see if I’m doing it right.  Fs = 30.5 hz, Qts = .227, Vas = 8.6 cubic feet, 8 ohm, 18” diameter.  I was under the impression that the high Fs / Qts (30 / .227 = 132) makes it a very good horn driver.  When I model it in a sealed box of 5 cubic feet my s/w says Fc = 50, Qtc =  .37 and Cutoff(F3) = 116.  It also gives a pretty sorry looking graph, looks more like a hi pass filter than a speaker.

DanK
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gexter
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #13 - 10/21/05 at 00:02:29
 
Er this sound strange but mine is modeled around a sealed driver not a horn.
and mine is in a corner. laying down on its side.
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stvcmty
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #14 - 10/21/05 at 00:22:46
 
For a sealed box, you want a fairly high QTS driver.  For the SO, you want a low FS.  Moving air is good, so a 18 or 21” driver would be fair game.

If you can find a fast woofer (high QTS), but the FS isn’t low enough add mass to lower the FS.

A lot of the Gold Wood woofers are starting to look good.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-386

The FS might be a bit high, but mass could be added to the cone fairly easily.

Stv
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gexter
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #15 - 10/21/05 at 02:47:19
 
I wish I knew what a real SO is supposed to be like!
I did not think about your woofer size when I noticed the size of the slot.
It you lay the thing on its side it makes a noticible differance with my hack. I also fire the horn into a corner and the output is higher on the horn than the front where the speaker and slot is.  That gives me two sides of extention with it on the floor fireing  into the corner (kinda) and a top.
When the top is on and its standing up its output is minimal.
I tried it again on its side with the top off and the horn fireing into the corner and it makes a big diff.

My FS/QTS is the exact opposite of the spectrum.
I sure would like to know what specs the thing is designed for.

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« Last Edit: 10/21/05 at 07:47:02 by gexter »  
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dank
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #16 - 10/21/05 at 13:01:32
 
Gexter
What do you mean by "top off" and "top on"?

Have you tried covering up the slot and firing into a corner?  My standard Imperials are indicating that the direct speaker radiations are actually reducing output when the Imperial is firing into a corner.  In other words the Imperial firing into a corner does better with no direct speaker radiation going into the corner too.  Are you seeing the same thing?

DanK
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dank
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #17 - 10/21/05 at 13:13:48
 
Stvcmty

From what you are saying, the Madison Executioner X 21 ought to be a good candidate for the Imperial SO.

http://madisonspeakers.netfirms.com/0105/products/rawdrivers.htm

Fs = 31, Qts = .982, 4" voice coil, 200oz magnet, Xmax of .75"  I've been dying to try one of these monsters, but the high Qts was scaring me off.  Might be worth a try now.

DanK
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gexter
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #18 - 10/21/05 at 15:20:10
 
sorry Dank
My hack is a corner cab. the horn exit is at the top and the normal corner cab has a flat lid so to speak.
I when I used it against a wall with the lid on ( it was in the middle of that wall) it was really week and I could hear it but not that get your attention bass.
I took the lid off ( the top of the corner cab) and laid it downon the floor with the opened horn exiting into a corner behind my corner TV stand.
The slot was facing into the room about 2 feet away from my TV stand.
The output was substantially better. And yes mine seems to have more output through the horn than the slot. when I stick my head into the horn i readilly hear bass. but when i put my head near the slot the bass is  less pronounced.
I would  not compare mine to yours because mine was based on what I had thought a SO would be like in a smaller form to fit where I wanted it to.
Mine ended up working better than I thought but I still want to know what makes up Steves Imp SO.
I presently am looking for an addtional amp to power it in my garage to give it a good healthy run.
I will try to post a pic of its intended placement ( untested there at the moment)
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« Last Edit: 10/21/05 at 15:33:27 by gexter »  
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stvcmty
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #19 - 10/21/05 at 18:39:28
 
High QTS normally means sealed box or open baffle.  Since the SO is a horn resonator built around a sealed box, my guess is high QTS is good.  The thing to watch is how a given driver works with the volume the SO has in its sealed chamber.  If it is too big, no problem, add bracing.  If there isn’t enough volume, the speaker’s low-end extension will fall off.

Stv
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JohnF
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #20 - 10/24/05 at 03:41:11
 
I'll just wait for the plans.  If I wanted to do try one on my own, then I'd go radical and use the open slot loading for the horn and forget the sealed chamber.  ei  open baffle bass with horn loaded support of the bottom end.  No 5 cube chamber, with a corner to form the final horn flare.....hmmm...OB with horn support on the bottom end where OB rolls off, all in a compact form.  That has potential to be a perfect sub.
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Brian
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #21 - 12/20/05 at 22:17:51
 
[quote author=dank  link=1129662594/0#12 date=1129847111]The speaker I’m using doesn’t seem to model well in a sealed 5 cubic foot box (if I’m using the s/w correctly).  Perhaps some nice person out there can check my results to see if I’m doing it right.  Fs = 30.5 hz, Qts = .227, Vas = 8.6 cubic feet, 8 ohm, 18” diameter.  When I model it in a sealed box of 5 cubic feet my s/w says Fc = 50, Qtc =  .37 and Cutoff(F3) = 116. [/quote]
Your numbers look good to me.  I do not have software, only a table of values in a book which only go down to Qtc 0.5.  Setting Qtc to 0.7 I calculated f3 = 94Hz, Vb = 1.0 cu ft.
With Qtc 0.5, f3 = 103Hz, Vb = 2.3 cu ft.  I think your numbers would extrapolate from these.  
If your cabinet has a door to give access to the sound chamber, you might throw in some sand bags to reduce the volume to 1.5 cu ft or smaller.  This might improve your bass without having to buy a new driver.  
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Jet-Lee
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #22 - 12/21/05 at 19:26:21
 
When I mde my desktop ImpSO, it was an easy hack scaled way down, like 1:24.

I think I'll do a little larger version for my 4x6's I took out of my car. I think I'll use corrugated cardboard.
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Rap
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #23 - 12/21/05 at 19:39:06
 
[quote author=Jet-Lee  link=1129662594/15#22 date=1135193181]When I mde my desktop ImpSO, it was an easy hack scaled way down, like 1:24.

I think I'll do a little larger version for my 4x6's I took out of my car. I think I'll use corrugated cardboard. [/quote]

You should open a disco for mice Jet Smiley
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Jet-Lee
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #24 - 12/21/05 at 19:59:18
 
I know. I've got 1:24 Imperial SO, HouseWrecker, and WickedOne. All using headphones.

Thought about CornerHorns, but they wouldn't be 1:24 scale.
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dank
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #25 - 01/30/06 at 13:12:42
 
I finally re-worked my front panel and tried a couple different 15" drivers, rather that the 18" that was originally installed.  All to no avail, as I'm still getting virtually zero output from this thing.  Here are some pictures:

http://www.mninter.net/~kuechle/impso15_3.jpg

http://www.mninter.net/~kuechle/impso15_2.jpg

http://www.mninter.net/~kuechle/impso15_1.jpg

Thats a 15" JBL E-140 in there now, and I know that speaker is capable of making some bass.  

So, has anyone else out there built one of these things and been able to make it work?  I'm about ready to scrap this one.

Dank
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J_Rock
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #26 - 01/31/06 at 02:22:17
 
SO you build this off of steve's plans? Or is it an extrapolation.

Is it just really quite? Or are getting serious cancelation?
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dank
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #27 - 01/31/06 at 14:01:41
 
It's from Steves plans.  The only modification is that it has a  hole for an 18" speaker rather than a 15", and the way it's setup now is theres a 15" speaker installed on an adapter board.

It has to be serious cancellation, thats the only thing it could be, right?  I see the speaker cone moving like crazy, but there just isn't much sound.  If I cover up the front slot opening its quite a bit louder, but thats the only thing I can do to make this sound better:  cover up the front entirely.
I did send a full range signal through it yesterday and it had good volume in the vocal range, just no bass.  I think that proves cancellation in the lower frequencies.

Dank
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Brian
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #28 - 01/31/06 at 16:53:26
 
This may be a silly question, but I think it's time to cover all the bases.  Do you have some other bass speaker to use as a reference standard to verify that your hearing is not damaged in the bass region?
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J_Rock
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #29 - 01/31/06 at 23:18:21
 
A graph of actuall response like a meter away would work too.  If it is indeed cancelation(which I expect is the case.), the graph would gradually slope down to the perfect cancelation frequency then begin to slope upward as frequency goes down further.

Kinda like a normal response with a large dip in the frequencies surrounding the cancelation frequency.

Also, this graph would show exactly what you are trying to describe, or wether there is output or not.
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J_Rock
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #30 - 01/31/06 at 23:38:50
 
Cancel that above. foudn the graphs

Looking at the graphs in pairs, i.e. 3 and 4 or 6 and 7.  The response in the bass region is practically the same with or without the front baffle on.  This would lead me to assume the k slot isn't loading the speaker's front wave into the horn portion at all.

so your K_slot is either, a) not working properly or b) the sealed portion of the box is what is causing the reduced lower output.  


Okay, i actually figured out what the problem is.

Spec wise, the JBL and the Cerwin Vega are vented box only subs, the barely reach into the 80 hz range when sealed.  I assume the madison one is also since I couldn't model it.

The reason the subs work fine in a normal imperial is the fact that there is no sealed chamber.
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DirtDawg
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #31 - 02/01/06 at 01:52:44
 
[quote author=J_Rock  link=1129662594/30#30 date=1138750730]Spec wise, the JBL and the Cerwin Vega are vented box only subs, the barely reach into the 80 hz range when sealed.  I assume the madison one is also since I couldn't model it.

The reason the subs work fine in a normal imperial is the fact that there is no sealed chamber. [/quote]

I can remember Steve saying you need a driver that can get into the 20's in a sealed cabinet. I know the JBL won't do that without copious amounts of EQ'ing. You mat be onto something J_ROCK.
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gexter
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #32 - 02/01/06 at 04:52:32
 
I don't think that the sealed area is the problem.
I think J rock may have it.
As far as we know Dank has built it correctly and is an experianced builder. So the K slot is out as well as the sealed area.

That would leave the type of driver suspect.
In my hack I built the sealed area around the driver specs and the driver specs were 25Hz in a sealed enclosure.

When I converted my So into standard Imp configuration the output was greater in volume.

I have a pair of 12"s that will do 20Hz in a sealed enclosure but I can no longer test that theory because my last mod is not reversable.
I have no idea if that is of any help but I thought it was worth mentioning.


At the present I am using the IMP hack on its side as a sturdy table for some other projects. as some may remember it is reinforced carboard and the sealed chamber was wood ( now the Compression chamber).

It may sound strange but for me it has much more output than usable and it's too big.

I don't think I need an Imperial even if I did have the room. if my hack works that well, I have no need for a real  Imp sub that will most likely blow mine away.

Well okay!!!  if I did have the room maybe I would just to say I did.



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dank
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #33 - 02/01/06 at 16:08:45
 
Here is a new graph of the slp vs frequency:

http://www.mninter.net/~kuechle/graph1.jpg

The Imperial SO is being driven with a signal generator through an amp.  The slp meter is a Radio Shack unit about a meter in front of the Imperial SO.  I had a volt meter and current meter hooked up and calculated the power going to the speaker at each frequency, as well as recording the slp.  Since the power was all over the map, I took (10 log power) and used that to normalize the slp meter reading.  That is what the graph uses:  the normalized slp vs frequency from 20 hz to 250 hz.  

I find it VERY hard to believe that a JBL E-140 would preform so poorly in a 5 cubic foot sealed cabinet.  This speaker produces close to 100 db (1w/1m) when sitting on a sealed standard volume box (3 cubic feet) that I use for measuring speaker parameters.  Now its producing 65 db (1w/1m) at 60 hz??  Thats barely above room ambient!!! I just can't believe that every speaker I've tried (there have been at least 4 different ones) is that much of a mis-match.

Dank

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DirtDawg
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #34 - 02/01/06 at 17:36:27
 
I agree Dan,

I've used them in 4 cuft boxes sealed in a system before and they get into the 50's flat. There has got to be some mysterious cancellation gremlin at work here.

I sure hope you figure this out!
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J_Rock
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #35 - 02/01/06 at 18:57:12
 
modeling in winISD Pro and Beta show a very steep rolloff at 90 hz for both drivers, pics in an hour or so.
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Brian
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #36 - 02/01/06 at 19:35:05
 
Is it possible one of the panels is unbraced?  Would this vibrating panel cause the cancellation?
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J_Rock
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #37 - 02/01/06 at 22:50:59
 
heres a JBL E140 in 5 cubic foot sealed enclosure.  Response drops off before 100hz and is down almost 6 db at 100hz.



If you got a different JBL E140, perhaps....

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« Last Edit: 02/01/06 at 22:51:16 by j_rock777 »  
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gexter
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #38 - 02/02/06 at 04:40:56
 
You guys are going places I don't bother going with this.

Or at least until I get a spare PC set up in my garage.
I have a bunch of old 68Kmacs stiing around but no audio software that old.( So on a side note if anyone knows of any old Macintosh 68K pre PowerPC audio software out there let me know)

Anyway this is my wierd side speaking:
what would happen if you shimmed up the horn without taking the whole thing apart.
sliding a sheet of 1/4 ply up the back of the inside and making the whole horn shallower in a way. as a temp way to change the horns tuning.
so just changeing the horn tuning without taking the whole thing apart.
Would that accomplish anything?
Or would it because you had sealed off the front and the diff was marginal.

and a stupid question, the chamber behind the driver is completely sealed right?


When you get this figured you are going to start a new thread (Imperial SO problems solved) and detail the problem or at least let us poor saps that are trying to help know what is going on.

I am still waiting for the plans to show up on line just to have them.

and waiting

and waiting

and waiting
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J_Rock
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #39 - 02/02/06 at 16:15:31
 
I don't know that the sealed chamber is the problem, But I do see it being one of few possibilitys.  The original imperials were ported versions, and a driver like the jbl e 140 would do well, considering theres a single larger port firing into the horn.

I could only recommend trying a driver that excels in a sealed enclosure/  Perhaps you could give us a list of anyt drivers you would be willing to throw into the SO and we could suggest the best one.  If you had specs on them too would be nice, since a few subs aren't in winISD and I would need to program them inorder to model them.
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #40 - 02/02/06 at 16:25:40
 
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dank
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #41 - 02/02/06 at 17:39:30
 
To J_rock
You might have something there.  I did not see your yellow line in my graph, but it fits pretty well.  I questioned the drop off rate though, until I saw it was 6 db/octave, its just that it goes on (and on and on) for about 4 octaves and 24 db.

Heres some more info...I boarded up the Imperial SO and re-did the frequency response the same way.  Heres the graph:

http://www.mninter.net/~kuechle/graph2.jpg

Now this is the same speaker, in the same 5 cubic foot sealed enclosure, its just that now its only firing into the horn.  These slp numbers are more like what I'd expect.  

One last thing I noticed is that since I had the V and I figures for the different frequencies, I also had the speaker impeadance.  When I graphed this it came as a surprise to me.  Maybe it will give someone out there another clue as to whats going on.  Here are the 2 graphs:

http://www.mninter.net/~kuechle/graph3.jpg

http://www.mninter.net/~kuechle/graph4.jpg

Dank
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Zygi
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #42 - 02/02/06 at 23:40:43
 
Dan,

  I keep looking at your IMP's and I see something that just doesn't look right, I just can't place my finger on what it is.

 I just built a pair for Changeout, I took a lot of pictures as I built them, I keep going back and forth between your pictures and mine, it puzzleing me.

 What changes did you make to the originial (Steves) drawing?

            BobZ
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dank
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #43 - 02/03/06 at 14:19:28
 
Hi Zygi, remember me from Decfest 2005?

I have a couple dozen build pics that I will move up to the web tonight and post links to.  Lets see if you can spot anything.

As far as mods go, its for an 18" instead of a 15" and I didnt have the ImperialSO.gif drawing when I built it so none of the brace B's, brace D's, or brace E's are in it.  Also the origional front panel cutout was cut too big, so I made a new front panel just recently...so a couple of the build pics will have the old front panel.


Dank
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Jet-Lee
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #44 - 02/03/06 at 16:19:30
 
[quote author=dank  link=1129662594/30#44 date=1138976368]...I didnt have the ImperialSO.gif drawing when I built it so none of the brace B's, brace D's, or brace E's are in it... [/quote]

That has my vote for the reason!
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Zygi
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #45 - 02/03/06 at 17:46:05
 
Dan,

  Sure, I remember everything about Decfest...... I'll try to e-mail you some pictures tonite, as you look them over you might spot something.

 I should get the pictures to Steve D. He might see something I did wrong, but Change-outs sounded great before they left here.

                BobZ
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change_out
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #46 - 02/03/06 at 22:08:23
 
Howdy Dank,

I remember you from the fest. I hope your problem will be quickly spotted by Zygi or Steve. Your Imperial cabinets look great.

Zygi,

I think the Imps are getting better wiyh age, I am only driving them with the select mono's. I expect a long break in on such a beast  using 1.6 watts per channel. Grin

Tim
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« Last Edit: 02/03/06 at 22:09:04 by change_out »  
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J_Rock
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #47 - 02/03/06 at 23:42:36
 
I could be completely wrong but my guess is the sealed chamber isn't allowing the subs to move air.  Too high of a compliance.  

I mean, if the driver can't produce reasonable output in the sealed chamber, theres no output for the horn to amplify...

I hope its something other than the subs though.

Perhaps Zigi could give us the name of the drivers in chnageouts, to see how they model in a sealed enclosure.  If they model as poorly as the JBL's do, they we could deduce that the sealed volume is not what is impeding the output.
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Zygi
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #48 - 02/04/06 at 00:23:47
 
J. Rock
     Dayton 295-130 are in Change_Out's IMP's
 
      BobZ.
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Zygi
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #49 - 02/04/06 at 00:27:45
 
Tim,

   I think you will experience a long break-in, but they will break -in.

        BobZ
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gexter
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #51 - 02/04/06 at 16:01:41
 
Nice, really nice.
looks alot better than cardboard Smiley

best of luck.
   Gex
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« Last Edit: 02/05/06 at 01:11:50 by gexter »  
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Zygi
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #52 - 02/05/06 at 00:23:43
 
Dan,

  what I thought I saw that was bothering me is not what I'm seeing now. I will send you the pictures that I think is where I'm seeing differences, with my limited knowledge of horns or just common sense is telling me something.

    Hopefully we can figure this out and make everyone happier because we did.

     BobZ
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dank
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #53 - 02/05/06 at 12:08:15
 
I have 3 more graphs that may shed light.  The graphs go from 20 hz to 20khz, keep in mind that we are really only interested in the 20 - 200 hz range.  Also disregard the blue line, all the information is in the green line.  I think I'll admit that the steep ramp up (looks like about 24 db per octave) is due to the poor speaker choice for this application, but the responce from 70 to 200 hz is what seems to have a very serious problem, and I'd sure like to know what it is.  The 3 graphs are 1)  front panel removed - this should act just like a speaker in a 5 cubic foot sealed box not coupled to the horn at all.  2)  with front panel - normal Imperial SO.  3)  with a solid board covering up the front panel so all the speaker energy goes into the horn.

http://www.mninter.net/~kuechle/open_ft.jpg

http://www.mninter.net/~kuechle/slot_ft.jpg

http://www.mninter.net/~kuechle/solid_ft.jpg

Dank



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bassboy
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #54 - 02/08/06 at 21:20:18
 
Here's my two cents.  I didn't bother to look at any of your pictures or graphs because it's not really necessary.  (And I have a dial up connection)  The design of this subwoofer is solid.  As far as I can tell it appears to be in the area of a 35-38 hertz horn with a flare inspired by the tractrix contour.  I have done a lot of research and this is a great design.  I am assuming that you did a good job building it.  I am assuming it is absolutely airtight where it should be.  Assuming these things there are only three varibles left - the driver, the hole in the front and room position.  

The hole in the front of the driver is NOT NECESSARY.  If it is doing what it is supposed to do, great, by all means it improves on the overall design.  If not, and it obviously isn't helping you, cover it up.  It won't hurt anything and you can rest assured that is how it is usually done anyway.

I would try a smaller driver, or one with a smaller vas.  Or restore the chamber to original size.  It's not going to hurt anything and you really don't need to try to max out this box, trust me.

That leaves the room position.  Consider this - I spent about 20 hours making my Imperial from the 1956 plans.  I spent about 5 hours modifying it to make it a front loaded design, similar to yours, and many other horn plans available on the internet.  (Without the slot, of course, simple as possible works well for me.)  I have spent over 60 hours listening to this thing and adjusting it's position.  It's still not perfect, but here is what I found.  

My garage has no treatments and it is about 30x30 with a 12 foot ceiling.  Backed into the corner it sounded great but low frequency extension was painfully inadequate.  I found, as you did earlier that it was a whole lot louder when facing into the corner.  Better lf extention as well, but at about three feet out the response was very jagged.  At high power levels (100 watts) the fluorescent lighting, the garage door and garage door opener, the electric panel and anything leaning on any wall would vibrate almost as loud as the bass.  You could even feel the concrete floor vibrating.

Moving it closer to the corner helped a lot but even a couple of inches in any direction made a huge difference in frequency response and lf extension.  Still not happy with this arrangement, I remembered the Big Fun Horn project and how much I was fascinated that in this design, the box itself actually cuts the corner in half.  So I turned the box so the SIDE was facing into the corner, tight to the walls.  Huge improvement, with less power it was louder and lower.  Angling it in even further helped, until the mouth was only about a foot from the wall on one side, tight to the wall on the other.  Placing a 100 lb slab of door on top, closing it off to the ceiling and further preserving directionality seemed to help too.  It looks oddly like the corner horn design, also on this website, but with a mouth on only one side.

This placement yeilded highest SPL, even frequency response, and oddly enough, the least room vibration noise.  In fact, leaning on the drywall near the mouth listening to a 20 hz note at 10 watts feels like a vibrating bed and makes it difficult to breathe.

That being said, the response is still pretty erratic as you move through the room, but if it's a listening room, you only have to pick one good spot anyway.  Room treatments would probably do miracles as well.  But don't try to get flat response below about 40, mine drops off pretty fast below that.  I have 2 10's in an infinite baffle situation, using the full box size available in there.  You guys can question this if you like but I think the horn flare, not the sealed chamber OR the driver is going to determine your low cutoff.  Of course they will have some effect on the overall outcome but I don't think you will get much lower than 40 flat unless you use room placement and room characteristics to effectively extend the horn or at least preserve directionality as long as possible, which I suppose is kind of the same thing.

But probably the easiest thing to try is actually turning it down.  Try going from 0 to 10 slowly and this is what I found.  Up to about 3 watts total peak, everything sounds great, and you can actually FEEL the SPL like an invisible vice around your head.  At about five watts it sounds louder but a lot sloppier and the pressurization effect is gone.  Some of the extra noise is the room rattling and most of the power is used shaking the hell out of the drywall.  Unless you are in a big nightclub, you really don't need more than 10 watts to lose your hearing.

By the way, if you want to take a meaningful measurement, do it right in front of the horn mouth, before the room gets ahold of it.  That's the only way to tell what's truly there before room effects add and subract.

Good luck
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« Last Edit: 02/08/06 at 21:50:45 by bassboy »  
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Zygi
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #55 - 02/10/06 at 18:19:35
 
Bassboy,
 

   Can you explain this..... The hole in the front of the driver is NOT NECESSARY.

    BobZ
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bassboy
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #56 - 02/10/06 at 18:51:54
 
What I am referring to is the K-slot in front of the driver.  If I understand correctly, Steve explained that it's main purpose was to prevent high frequencies from entering the horn.

This was historically done by tuning the chamber in front of the driver, but since this design employs no front chamber high frequency cutoff would mainly be determined by the horn bends.  

If Steve's design does what it is supposed to do, it is a major update to horn theory, as this field has not advanced much in a few decades.

However, if for any reason it is not doing what it is supposed to I do not see any reason why it should not be covered.  This will necessitate the use of some form of crossover, but actively filtering the input to the operating range of the speaker should help any design, SO included, so I would use an active crossover anyway.

I have an imperial very close to SO design with no slot and it works very well with an active crossover.  The WO32 is very similar in concept if not scale, and works well with no slot, as do countless other similar designs readily available.

Humbly stated, I have been proven very wrong this very morning in my assumptions regarding theory, so please correct me if I am mistaken in any way.
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Zygi
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #57 - 02/13/06 at 18:54:30
 
Bassboy,

  Not trying to prove anyone wrong here, that would be wrong, this forum is a learning tool for a lot of people.  It really helps the DIY'er which is great for the IMP/SO due to size and shipping costs.

 I'm just not much of a fan of someone making blanket statments about a design unless they have good reason for making such statements.  Just thought I'd keep your ideas in check a bit, thats all. Nice response by the way...


  I looked at Dans pictures and saw something that didn't look right, after building a set for Tim, and countless calls to Steve I may have a handle on building them correctly, but this in no way makes me and expert on the Imperial or any horn for that matter.

  My thoughts are, if the IMP is a 40 hrts horn covering up the K slot will make it just a 40 hrts horn. While it is the same idea as the WO-32 and that sure doesn't have a horn large enough to go very low, it works.

  I think theres two things at play here,  the begining of the horn is the narrowest section at the top of the k slot, and the k slot builds a high preasure area which feeds the horn itself. I think that is why a low FS driver is used which works well in a 4.5-5 cf box. The lower FS driver will continue below the horn cut-off as well as gain from the room making the SO IMP almost flat to the lowest octive yet it still remains as effortless sounding as any sub I've ever heard.  I could be way off here, however.  All I know, built correctly, it works.

  What we all got to hear at Decfest was a treat, which is why a few people with the space are building the SO's for there rooms, I will have a pair of SO's its just a matter of time till I have a new listening room which will accommodate these beasts.

  The biggest problems with a lot of people building speakers of any sort from plans or kits, is they don't take the time to build it  exactly to the plans specs. They  sometimes take artistic libertys with the design and then complain the speakers sucks.

 Dan didn't take liberties with the design, he had only a sketch, which Steve drew for him at Decfest to work from. Now we just need to help Dan get his SO/IMPS working as they should.


     BobZ
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bassboy
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #58 - 02/13/06 at 20:39:51
 
Thank you for your reply.  Your response indicates that the the slot is not just to filter high frequency response, as I had assumed based on Steve's description, it actually has a complex relationship with the throat itself.  That changes things a bit.

As I have said before, this design is certainly revolutionary.  And since I don't have one, and have never heard one, I am guessing at best, based on papers on horn theory.  As you can probably imagine, I have never seen a paper concerning this type of slot or using the brute force of low fs to overcome limitations of the horn.

When I mentioned I had not seen the pics of dank's imperial, I did not mean to imply that rigid conformity to the plans doesn't matter, I assumed since he has seen it he did it exactly perfectly, or reasonably so.

I checked out the dayton driver series II.  The thing is only $89 on parts express, or whatever website I was looking at.  In light of this, it would be silly not to use the specified driver.

That would eliminate driver and box as the source of the problem.  (If the slot is confirmed to be the exact correct size and geometry.)

Then it would have to be perfect, wouldn't it?

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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #59 - 02/13/06 at 23:06:02
 
Bassboy,

   If you want to see something that turns theory upside down, look at Steve's Cornerhorns. The man doesn't know what it means to think inside the box.

     BobZ
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dank
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #60 - 02/20/06 at 15:58:44
 
Well, I broke down and bought the Dayton 295-130 for my Imperial SO.  I installed it this past weekend, and everyone who was betting on the problem being the speaker just lost their shirts!  The new speaker makes little or no difference.  It is still performing reasonable well with the front boarded up, but down right pathetic when in it's intended configuration.  An SPL meter right in the horn reads an average of over 18 db lower across the entire range of 30-100 hz (measured at 8 points) when the SO is "normal" vs boarded up.  The only other thing I can think of is that I don't have the football shape cutout in the front panel yet, but Steve's worked well enough without that at Decfeast 2005 so I'm not sure that will make that hugh a difference.  I'm about ready to hang this one up, maybe I'll plan on throwing it in the truck and take it to DecFest 2006 unless someone can come up with something else to try.

Dank
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60ndown
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #61 - 02/20/06 at 16:50:08
 
return new drivers and get you money back, dont give up 5 seconds before the miracle. ??? they will give you what you want we are just missing something. i dont read long posts (too a.d.d.) but could you list your signal chain EXACTLY.and how its all connected.my guess is that there is soething wrong with one of your components.

have you tried
just 1 imp?
on both channels?
on a different amp?
different x over?
no x over?
different source? maybe your source just doesnt produce any output below 80hz for some reason?



1.source
2.x over
3.amp
4.etc
5etc
6.etc
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Steve Deckert
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If the 1st watt
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #62 - 02/20/06 at 21:39:44
 

Dank,

My SO's that were at Decfest 05 had the football shaped cutout.  From looking at your original pictures the obvious thing I saw was the spacing between the baffle and the front panel followed by other small details that were all just a bit off.  I e-mailed you a high res image of the plans so you could compare them to yours and see if anything could be easily adjusted closer to spec.  That was months ago.  Did you ever get it, and if not, would that help?

Also, on mine, installing a solid front baffle without the cutouts has almost the opposite effect in that it kills efficiency of the low bass.  What you have now is probably close to a giant sized WO32 cabinet where the horn flare shrinks to a point with minimal air space in front of the woofer.
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dank
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #63 - 02/21/06 at 12:22:29
 
Steve

Yes, I got the drawing and mine is close.  I got a little confused as to the front removable baffle though.  Mine is currently only single thickness, and some pictures from Zygi just had the inner cutout (with the football shape) so I incorrectly assumed the front panel had changed.  I will add a second sheet of plywood to mine (with the football shape) and see what happens.  

If I'm reading the plans right though, the main important thing is that the front of the compression chamber angles from 0 to 2.5" away from the inner side of the front removable baffle board and that the top of the compression chamber angles from 2.5" to 3.75 inches away from the inside of the top.  My cabinet is quite close to these dimensions.

DanK
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gexter
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #64 - 03/15/06 at 01:46:02
 
Dank

I gotta know, did you get things worked out?
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #65 - 03/23/07 at 14:31:07
 
gexter wrote on 03/15/06 at 01:46:02:
Dank

I gotta know, did you get things worked out?

Still curious...
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Dual turntable, modified Toshiba cd player
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ML TLs, HDTs, OBs, Nagaoka Swans,Corner horns, subs
Dedicated room undergoing treatment
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dank
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pair of dual 18
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #66 - 03/23/07 at 23:31:50
 
I gave up on this quite some time ago.  I have no idea what's wrong.  My interests have shifted, so I'm working on other things, and the SO is just sitting in the storage room (along with my pair of dual 18 Imperials).  It has to be almost perfect cancellation between the front wave of the speaker and the wave out of the horn.  It's still VERY impressive if you board up the front and send all the energy into the horn, so I know the speaker and the amp are all working fine.  That gives me an idea...if that scenario is true I should see increased output if I board up the horn mouth instead of  the front...maybe I'll try that this weekend.  But the way things have been going lately, I'll just generate more questions...that seems to be my motto lately:  looking for answers,  finding only questions.


Dan K
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #67 - 03/26/07 at 06:01:08
 
I re-read this entire thread again and am still entirely mistified.  I was certain it was the driver- but it obviously isn't.

DanK- I plan on building a pair of Imperials this summer- and I would love to talk with you a little more about what drivers you have tried and whats worked in the normal Imperial.

I also have a new big PA amp if you decide you want to send some serious wattage to your imperials- I remember them having some huge Cerwin Vegas in them.

In any case- what are your new projects?  Anything you would like to share?
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #68 - 03/09/08 at 02:16:19
 
any updates?

where are these beasts?


dank wrote on 03/23/07 at 23:31:50:
I gave up on this quite some time ago.  I have no idea what's wrong.  My interests have shifted, so I'm working on other things, and the SO is just sitting in the storage room (along with my pair of dual 18 Imperials).  It has to be almost perfect cancellation between the front wave of the speaker and the wave out of the horn.  It's still VERY impressive if you board up the front and send all the energy into the horn, so I know the speaker and the amp are all working fine.  That gives me an idea...if that scenario is true I should see increased output if I board up the horn mouth instead of  the front...maybe I'll try that this weekend.  But the way things have been going lately, I'll just generate more questions...that seems to be my motto lately:  looking for answers,  finding only questions.


Dan K

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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #69 - 03/11/08 at 16:12:30
 
60_and_up wrote on 03/09/08 at 02:16:19:
any updates?

where are these beasts?





Some of you might enjoy the following pictures, others may not.  Warning - the following pictures are very graphic in nature, parental control is advised!















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musgofasa
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #70 - 03/11/08 at 17:57:35
 
 :'(           :'(
Cry           Cry
Cry           Cry
Cry           Cry
Cry           Cry
Cry           Cry
Cry           Cry
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Re: Imperial SO has problems, need help
Reply #71 - 03/11/08 at 23:52:18
 
i hope steve or zyggi dont look at those and tell you what was wrong.

bottom line is, the imperials work, and steve wouldnt reccomend something if it wasnt great, you were so close..........

ive scrapped more than 1 box that i lovingly built

always a hard decision.....
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