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Cerwin-Vega V-max's? (Read 8316 times)
djdj
Ex Member



Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
10/12/05 at 05:11:54
 
For mobile DJ (college parties) and club use, I was thinking of using Cerwin-Vega V-Max 12s or 15s. Would these still work even though they are for car use?
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stvcmty
Ex Member



Re: Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
Reply #1 - 10/12/05 at 08:27:52
 
I use a profile J15 in the imperial I built, it works, and it is a car sub.  If you are going to be using it for bass only, it will work great.

Car subs do well to load the horn, but the front radiation on them is pretty useless compared to what they make come out of the horn.

Stv
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djdj
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Re: Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
Reply #2 - 10/12/05 at 17:01:43
 
I'm brand new to this whole speaker design. Should I wait then for the SO design that is coming up?
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stvcmty
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Re: Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
Reply #3 - 10/12/05 at 18:03:56
 
My thoughts on the SO:

It is an audiophile sub, not a PA sub.

If your goal is to get a lot of clean bass for a large concert or party, use the imperial as it is now.

If your goal is to fill a moderately sized listing room with bass, wait for the SO.

I may be completely wrong, but from what I gather from what Steve D has said about the SO, it uses the horn as a resonator rather than a traditional horn.

If the front of the SO was closed, I could see using it as a PA sub, however the slot that gives it well controlled exclusive bass through the horn mouth probably reduces the over all efficiency of the horn.

I see the horn on the imperial like a port, and the horn-resonator on the SO like a passive radiator.  Passive radiators are not traditionally used in PA applications because of the power involved, along with the amount of air being moved.  I don’t see a resonator horn being as efficient as a loaded horn.

Stv

To avoid a flame war:
I am not saying anything bad about the SO.  I am just saying every speaker has a purpose, and from what I have read about the construction, theory, and operation of the SO, I do not see it as a PA sub.
[To the SO fanatics:  Offering points and supporting them contradicting what I said is fine.  Blatantly saying “I don’t agree with what you said” without support will not help anyone.]
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DirtDawg
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Re: Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
Reply #4 - 10/12/05 at 19:07:32
 
I do not agree with what you said! Smiley
Flame War!  :-X

Nobody would dare. If it says "audiophile" in the description, avoid it for pro sound use ........... PEROID!
Get something stronger, designed to accept all the punishiment you can throw at it.
While some audiophile gear is heavy duty, you will end up using it "heavier duty" than it's capable of withstanding. No qualifying politically correct legal statement needed here.
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« Last Edit: 10/12/05 at 19:08:57 by DirtDawg »  
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dank
Ex Member



Re: Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
Reply #5 - 10/12/05 at 19:50:40
 
I'm about 1/2 way into my build of a pair of Imperial SO's (single 18).  When I'm done (1-2 weeks), I'll let everyone know how they compare to my dual 18 Imperials.  The plans wern't ready at Decfest, but I got the changes straight from Steve D.  Not a whole lot of changes from the regular Imperial!  When Steve D hooked up a signal generator to his SO's at Decfest it just re-confirmed my desire to build a pair.  They have to be flat (or maybe even increase in volume) as the generator went from 40 down to 30 hz.  Wow.

DanK
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dank
Ex Member



Re: Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
Reply #6 - 10/12/05 at 19:53:31
 
Thats "(single 18)" after Imperial SO's.  Don't know how the smiley face got in there.

DanK
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dank
Ex Member



Re: Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
Reply #7 - 10/12/05 at 19:56:42
 
Interesting.  Guess I uncovered the code for a smiley.  It doesnt show up in the preview...  Any way the Imperial SO's I'm building will have a single 18" speaker.  I have Cerwin Vega
188's and Madison Executioner X 18's to try in them.

DanK
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DirtDawg
Ex Member



Re: Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
Reply #8 - 10/12/05 at 20:00:39
 
Dan,

That's the most exciting thing I've heard since all the hullaballoo concerning adsence of posts about the Decfest got started. One man with both Imperial and SO version side by side for comparison. You da man! Grin
My statement might have been a little strong with regards to Imperials, but I'm standing by it, hoping the Imperial SO is the one exception.
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stvcmty
Ex Member



Re: Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
Reply #9 - 10/12/05 at 21:39:33
 
All:

If my previous post was a bit harsh, I am sorry.

I was up until 3 doing homework.  I had a 7am class that I slept though, and I had an exam today right before lunch.

It has been a bad day.

The high point of my day will be cheese steak subs for dinner, and a chance to put my feet up, and listen to music on my imperial.

DjDj:

I would recommend building the Decware modified imperial for full-range use; it is incredible.  I am using a car sub, and a high QTS driver.  The combination is amazing, even though on paper they look like they would be less than ideal for horn loading.

Stv
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JimP
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Re: Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
Reply #10 - 10/12/05 at 23:48:36
 
Dawg,

I have been using the Imperials for PA for a while now and they are definitely up to the task sonically.  I understand your statement about ruggedness and I think they could be build to be roadworthy (physically tough) and also electronically tough with the right drivers.  I do baby ours a little, mostly because the $30 mid-tweeters we use are not bullet-proof.  With more $$ the Imperial's drivers could be made heavy-duty enough for any application and still be classified as audiophile grade.  I don't know enough about the SO version to comment on its pro-audio applications.

Jim P

ps  Dank, how'd you get so lucky to get the SO plans pre-release?  Send us pics of the build and finished product for sure!
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DirtDawg
Ex Member



Re: Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
Reply #11 - 10/13/05 at 00:02:41
 
[quote author=JimP  link=1129093914/0#10 date=1129157316]ps  Dank, how'd you get so lucky to get the SO plans pre-release?  Send us pics of the build and finished product for sure! [/quote]


JimP,

Must be present to win? Smiley

I am in full agreement with you about the Imperial. Oh Yeah! It's the SO version that might be too much of a specialty item to be effective as a Hi spl unit. Now we'll know for sure after Dan works it all out for us. Cheesy

My attempts in the past were to have the Hi-est Fi possible. Imperials would have been perfect for small venues!
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« Last Edit: 10/13/05 at 00:07:35 by DirtDawg »  
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djdj
Ex Member



Re: Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
Reply #12 - 10/13/05 at 03:03:10
 
Thank you all for your responses, I'm learning every second. I actually was going to simply use 2 boxes, each with 2-15" V-max's in them and use them as dance platforms too. But from what I've heard I can use half the speakers and get wayyy better output from this newfound design. Sooo..with 2 of these Imperials layed down on their sides for girlies to dance on, am I buying plans for PA or waiting for SO???
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jj420
Ex Member



Re: Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
Reply #13 - 10/14/05 at 01:20:53
 
both

fullrange Imps for top end, So's to cover the bottom octave.

heh heh heh Kiss
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gexter
Ex Member



Re: Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
Reply #14 - 10/15/05 at 05:12:12
 
now your talkin JJ
thats my choice.. In  my dream world

Dank I have only two words for you ( I hate you) well I guess thats three words.   Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley
You have the SO plans.  :'(
I talked to Steve the other day and he was not forward in offering them when I asked about them. I was actually asking a couple questions on the WO32 and I mentioned the SO in conversation when they are available, he said soon.
I will not be building one to the plans now, I don't think I need to and I have no place for another one anyway.

-and here we go again-

DD-I would use Steves modified Imperial design for a PA BUT the caveat is I can hardly wait for Dank to evaluate both.  Being lucky enough to have both to compare is the greatest resources any of us have right now.

Gex
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« Last Edit: 10/16/05 at 05:50:42 by gexter »  
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djdj
Ex Member



Re: Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
Reply #15 - 10/16/05 at 17:31:40
 
How much would I be losing if I just built my (pre-imperial knowledge) standard dual 15" subwoofer boxes? I have a gig Oct 24th and need bass!!!
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DirtDawg
Ex Member



Re: Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
Reply #16 - 10/16/05 at 19:50:37
 
Say above 80Hz or so, not much as long as the box is big enough for the 15s to move easily. It's below that range where the difference is going to be most noticeable, since that's where most of the Imperial's horn loading benefit happens. Guessing, since many, many years have past since I last heard one, I would say 6 or 8 dB in the bottom octave over a large BR cab. Maybe one of the guys who has a pair can put some measurement figures down for you. If I had a job in a week I'd go with what I know and build the Imperials next week.
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DirtDawg
Ex Member



Re: Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
Reply #17 - 10/16/05 at 20:23:43
 
Gex,

The way I interpret the SO info available to us, (could be all wrong?) the Decware Imperial design has been reworked to extend the response flat to 20Hz for the absolute best in audiophile low end. That may not translate to being better for commercial PA use, since response in that lower octave is not "free". Something had to give to accomplish that extension in response.
My concern is that the "something" might make it an undesirable compromise for PA use, especially considering below 30Hz response is not usually needed to "feel the bass". Maximizing 30Hz to 80Hz would be more desirable for a KICK A55 PA. Grin
That's what the Imperial has already been doing since the '50s and I'm all for 'em! Cheesy
I've been known to use a "sub sub" before and if there is no compromise, then an Imperial going down to 30Hz crossed over to a Sub Only below that would be extreme!
I will step aside now and bow down before DanK and wait for him to speak.
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« Last Edit: 10/16/05 at 20:37:51 by DirtDawg »  
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gexter
Ex Member



Re: Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
Reply #18 - 10/17/05 at 03:42:19
 
Yep I am really interested what Dank has to say. I am all ears so to speak....  :)
You know if I build another garage in the back I could fit   Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

djdj-  car subs would work in a SO better than a Std Imp because of there intended use.
But I don't think a SO is your answer. I wonder why a full range Imperial can't work for you. You could always add a Imperial sub after. your getting pretty high quality sound with both.

I think if I had a "gig" I and I wanted to move a substantial sound wave I would use an  decware Imperial sub.
I think it would serve the purpose better than a SO. You want punch and thats what DD's talking about.
I have not built a full size Imperial the 63" high one but I would think that a Well built full size with a single 18 and horn would do  the job.
if a a sub is needed a decware Imperial with dual 15'
I am sorry that it has come down to the wire for you in time, and if I was using a car sub for PA I would build a Bass reflex box tuned like DD mentioned. that would be fast and easy.
there is always the next "gig".
then build them and ( test them) with time to spare

I think a car sub in a horn will work but how well so you need it to work?

I sadly only have a opinion on this

DD-The Imperial SO would not be my choice for PA use. My little obsession with it and a version of what I think it is does not at all lend itself to PA use.
my building spree has come to an end with the exception of a WO32 in the next couple months.
I just don't have the room to dedicate to the Imperials which I really want to mess with.

Good luck djdj.
I guess you did not get the answers you needed in time.
But hey! theres always tommorrow. Smiley
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stvcmty
Ex Member



Re: Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
Reply #19 - 10/17/05 at 03:59:34
 
Car subs work fine in a regular imperial, I am using one in mine, and it shakes the house.

The only issue with car subs might be the surround, but in the thread “Foam Cloth or Paper Surround” http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=diy;action=display;num=112085... the worries about a car sub having a foam surround were abated.

If the sub has decent [believable] power handling, it should work in the imperial.  The Decware modified imperial was designed to work with almost any speaker.

All the speaker really has to do is load the horn.   The large volume of the compression chamber mates almost any speaker well to the horn.  Even if the front radiation sounds bad, the horn sound will overpower it.

Along the same lines, the volume of air in the horn makes cone movement well controlled, despite the “ported” compression chamber, down to about 30Hz.  The combination of the large compression chamber and the volume of air in the horn keep the cone well dampened, allowing for fast low mids and mids from the front radiation.  [Which is why I have good luck with somewhat high QTS drivers in the imperial.]

Stv
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gexter
Ex Member



Re: Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
Reply #20 - 10/17/05 at 05:10:09
 
there ya go!
see all you need is someone who has tried it to know for sure.
I do know a car sub works because I have one in my modified sub corner cab.
I do know that it is not ideal because some drivers work better in enclosures that they are designed for.

thanks  stvcmty I know you have put the time in on these things. I would go with your assessement
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dank
Ex Member



Re: Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
Reply #21 - 10/17/05 at 14:12:38
 
Here's how far I got this weekend on the Imperial SO:
http://www.mninter.net/~kuechle/imp13.jpg

(thats the lower right corner of a standard Imperial in the left side of the picture).  I think my front slot cutout might be a little off as all I have to work with are pictures I took at Decfest 2005 and I built a router jij with my classic mistake:  cutting on the wrong side of the router bit.  But rather than re-doing it, I thought I'd try it...that panel has to be removeable anyway to get at the speaker...who known, it might work better with that shape.  

I talked to Ziggy (the guy who builds the speaker cabinets for Decware) at Decfest.  He indicated that 22 hours were what an Imperial build took.  Well, my hat is off to you Ziggy, so far it looks like my build time will be around 80 hours.
 
Hopefully I will have the first Imperial SO playing music in another day or two and the 2nd Imperial SO following in about a week.  Then I'll have more pictures and let everyone know how they compare to the "Imperial Classic".

DanK
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gexter
Ex Member



Re: Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
Reply #22 - 10/17/05 at 15:10:46
 
We thank you. and really nice work! Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley

80 hours? Wow thats alot of time. The next one will be faster.
Ziggy likely uses nicer equipment than most of us do.

EDIT: well better than me anyway. I have not seen much of your shop but looks like your well equiped.
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« Last Edit: 10/17/05 at 15:15:02 by gexter »  
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djdj
Ex Member



Re: Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
Reply #23 - 10/17/05 at 19:13:29
 
Thanks everyone for your time and knowledge again! I am new to this concept and wasnt aware that the 2nd driver in the Imperial was a mid not a sub. Which was why I was asking; Why don't you just use 2 subs in that box? Also I didn't understand how 2 wooferes were making full range sound. And that you put the tweeter on top. I don't mind putting the time into an Imperial box but I just want to know it will sound good for my party gigs and a few bars. If I use the Imperial with Cerwin-Vega V-max's, what would I use for the 2nd speaker in there???
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stvcmty
Ex Member



Re: Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
Reply #24 - 10/17/05 at 20:18:30
 
For a non-sub woofer for the mismatched speaker pair for an imperial, a good bet is a peavey scorpion:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=294-313

They work well in an imperial.  The scorpion is reasonably priced, and has good power handling for PA use.

If that is too expensive for you, you could use a GW1558.  http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-384
The specs for the 1558 don’t make it look good for horn loading, but it has worked well for me.  Its power handling is not quite as impressive which might be a vote against it for DJ use.  380 watts max is not bad, it is just a bit low.

A tricky part will be the crossover for the tweeter, but getting the cabinet built is a larger concern than the crossover.

Stv
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dank
Ex Member



Re: Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
Reply #25 - 10/17/05 at 20:39:25
 
[quote author=djdj  link=1129093914/15#15 date=1129480300]How much would I be losing if I just built my (pre-imperial knowledge) standard dual 15" subwoofer boxes? I have a gig Oct 24th and need bass!!! [/quote]

djdj
Heres a weird answer for you...you could build a pair of ported dual 15 Imperial compression chambers following the DecWare Imperial plans.  They ought to work as well as any other ported dual 15 box.  Later you could add the rest of the Imperial.  The front baffle board might give you problems because it sticks down a couple inches and becomes the front of the Imperial...you might need to add some wedge shaped stands for the compression chamber to sit on.  If you decide to do the Imperial SO later, the braces are cut down an inch or two and a different baffle board is put on.  

You do realize that a plywood Imperial is in the 250 pound range, right?  MDF Imperial would be about 1.5 times heavier.  My plywood Imperial SO compression chamber that I just finisted weighs 82 pounds and I have a 32 pound driver to put in it.

DanK
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J_Rock
Ex Member



Re: Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
Reply #26 - 10/18/05 at 01:16:29
 
I Hope Dan K is nice enough to invite em to see his Imp SO when they are done! He let me see his imperials before.

And if he does,  :D Smiley Wink Grin
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djdj
Ex Member



Re: Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
Reply #27 - 10/18/05 at 03:14:43
 
I'm thinking 2 Imperial SO boxes with 15" V-max's. How much more would I notice over the standard dual-15" box?
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bnew63
Ex Member



Re: Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
Reply #28 - 10/23/05 at 21:26:19
 
I am using an Imperial with two 15's as a sub in a building that is 20x30 by 16' tall.I have a 250 watt sub amp which does not usally get turn up past halfway on the volume dial.
I have had reports of the bass being heard three houses away and I live in an area with 2-5 acre yards and alot of trees in between.
Now I realise people are searching for the ultimate BASS (myself included)but sometimes I wonder if we go beyond what we really need for good sound.My one Imperial will put out more bass than I will ever need.It is the most defined and relaxed sub I have made yet!!
I'd love to hear an objective comparison between the SO and the imperial
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« Last Edit: 10/23/05 at 21:35:26 by bnew63 »  
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gexter
Ex Member



Re: Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
Reply #29 - 10/24/05 at 02:26:32
 
[quote author=bnew63  link=1129093914/15#28 date=1130099179]  
I'd love to hear an objective comparison between the SO and the imperial [/quote]

Its all up to Dank right now. until the plans are released anyway.
Its all academic to me now because unless I build an addition I will not be building any more Imperials SO or other wise.

Gex


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Michael E
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Re: Cerwin-Vega V-max's?
Reply #30 - 10/28/05 at 05:44:22
 
[quote author=djdj  link=1129093914/15#27 date=1129601683]I'm thinking 2 Imperial SO boxes with 15" V-max's. How much more would I notice over the standard dual-15" box? [/quote]

Absolutely heaps!

Typical Car 15" 87dB/1watt
Typical sensitivity of basshorn with 40hz cutoff,and 600L volume : 101-106dB/watt

+ Better quality.
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djdj
Ex Member



Dual Cerwin-Vega V-max's in 1 Imperial?
Reply #31 - 11/03/05 at 23:46:28
 
Thank you for the input! I ended up building the dual 15" standard bass-reflex box. Haven't finished it yet though. What would I expect with 2 Cerwin-Vega V-Max's in a regular Imperial? If it would level a building thats what I'm looking for!
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Michael E
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Re: Dual Cerwin-Vega V-max's in 1 Imperial?
Reply #32 - 11/18/05 at 02:15:48
 
[quote author=djdj  link=1129093914/30#31 date=1131061588]Thank you for the input! I ended up building the dual 15" standard bass-reflex box. Haven't finished it yet though. What would I expect with 2 Cerwin-Vega V-Max's in a regular Imperial? If it would level a building thats what I'm looking for! [/quote]

If the imperial is designed for an 18", the two CV15"s you have wont quite be the right cone area for the horn,but it should still be very effective!

The imperial will be way more efficient than the bass reflex.
Bass reflex with this woofer - probably about 90dB/1watt/1metre
Basshorn - 100dB atleast,typically 105dB/1watt/1metre.

Mike.e
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