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WO with 12" drivers? (Read 5783 times)
Braggi
Ex Member



WO with 12" drivers?
09/19/05 at 16:55:32
 
For those who've built 12" Wicked Ones: I've read several opinions concerning scaling the WO. Steve D. says build it taller but keep it at 36 by 36. One builder said he tried it this way and wound up cutting it down and putting 10s in it and now he likes it better. Sheesh.

I found some 12" drivers I like the specs on and I'd like to go for a pair of WOs for PA use. Question is: do I do what Steve recomends and just make them taller with angled baffle boards? Do I follow another suggestion and make them 40 by 40 or larger? Vas on this driver is 1.94 cu ft vs 1.87 for Steve's driver. On that alone I guess just going taller makes sense so I don't wind up with too large a cavity behind the driver.

Any comments?
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60ndown
Ex Member



Re: WO with 12" drivers?
Reply #1 - 09/19/05 at 21:36:09
 
[quote author=Braggi  link=1127148932/0#0 date=1127145332]For those who've built 12" Wicked Ones: I've read several opinions concerning scaling the WO. Steve D. says build it taller but keep it at 36 by 36. One builder said he tried it this way and wound up cutting it down and putting 10s in it and now he likes it better. Sheesh.

I found some 12" drivers I like the specs on and I'd like to go for a pair of WOs for PA use. Question is: do I do what Steve recomends and just make them taller with angled baffle boards? Do I follow another suggestion and make them 40 by 40 or larger? Vas on this driver is 1.94 cu ft vs 1.87 for Steve's driver. On that alone I guess just going taller makes sense so I don't wind up with too large a cavity behind the driver.

Any comments? [/quote]

who are we to question steve? i have heard of people haveing not good experiences building a 12 incher wo, wrayza particularly, but i dont know, if you got drivers and x over and time and amp....why not try building 1 of each and let us know 'fur shizzle' what does and doesnt work? i dont understand why scaleing a desighn is so tricky, but there are many things i dont understand...many many things.but i do love loud accurate bass..i know that
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serenechaos
Ex Member



Re: WO with 12" drivers?
Reply #2 - 09/20/05 at 03:24:13
 
[quote author=60ndown  link=1127148932/0#1 date=1127162169]i dont understand why scaleing a desighn is so tricky, but there are many things i dont understand... [/quote]

You don't necessarily want to change the horn dimensions just because you put in a larger (or smaller) driver.  
You just need to make the driver fit...  
If you do (change any dimensions), the horn is no longer tuned to the same frequency.  

To quote Martin King:

“When sizing the back horn geometry, it is interesting to note that the driver’s size and Thiele / Small parameter do not enter into the calculations.
The lower cut-off frequency Fc determines the mouth cross-sectional area.  
The throat area and horn length are determined y the desired SPL boost above the lower cut-off frequency Fc.  

So given two similar drivers, that vary only in diameter, the same size horn mouth would result for the same low cut-off frequency Fc.  
The same exponential back horn could be used for an eight inch and a six inch diameter driver.”  
Robert  :)  
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Braggi
Ex Member



Re: WO with 12" drivers?
Reply #3 - 09/20/05 at 15:03:20
 
[quote author=serenechaos  link=1127148932/0#2 date=1127183053]
To quote Martin King:

“When sizing the back horn geometry.. [/quote]

Yes, but... the WO isn't a back horn, not sure it's even a front horn although it has hornlike features. As many on these forums have said, the horn is too small to actually work as a bass horn, and yet, there's the bass!

I've just found some woofers with the specs I've looked for and I'm waffling about whether to get them (at $65 each) or spring for Steve's and stick with the 10" design.

And it's not that I question Steve, far from it. I'm thinking of following his advice and just going taller.
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DirtDawg
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Re: WO with 12" drivers?
Reply #4 - 09/20/05 at 16:33:41
 
What's this about driver specs not entering into the calculations? I don't have much experience with back horns, but I don't think the WO has much in common with back horns. I can tell you that using a cheap Pioneer 10" compared to a cheap JBL 10" in the WO makes a lot of difference. The main difference is the Pioneer has a higher Fs than the JBL and the WO seems to work much better with a low Fs. However, the JBL has a smaller Vas than the Pioneer and the WO sounded much better after I added some bracing to the sealed chamber, also, to help the JBL. Sounds more like a plain old 4th order device to me. Cheesy

I've only built 1 WO 12" with some old model Kickers and we did what Steve suggested and it seemed to work very well.
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« Last Edit: 09/20/05 at 16:37:53 by DirtDawg »  
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Braggi
Ex Member



Re: WO with 12" drivers?
Reply #5 - 09/20/05 at 22:16:31
 
Aha! It's that last sentence, DirtDawg. That's what I wanted to hear.

The driver I'm looking at is the Celestion BX-12 pro. it's a beast.

"Each BX unit is built on a rigid cast aluminum chassis and has been designed using computer-optimized magnet structures for maximum efficiency and edge-wound ribbon-wire voice coils for improved power-handling capability. Treated paper cones with treated cloth accordion surrounds, vented pole pieces,  HUGE magnet,  superior performance are few of the many quality features of the BX series drivers.  * Power handling: 600 watts RMS * Voice coil diameter: 4" * Nominal impedance: 8 ohms * DC resistance: 5.75 ohms * Frequency response: 45-3,500 Hz * Magnet weight: 126 oz. * Fs: 45 Hz * SPL: 96 dB 1W/1m * Vas: 1.94 cu. ft. * Qms: 9.05 * Qes: .19 * Qts: .19 * Xmax: 3.25mm * Net weight: 29.4 lbs. * Dimensions: Overall Diameter: 12.4", Cutout Diameter: 10.95", Mounting Depth: 5.5"
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DirtDawg
Ex Member



Re: WO with 12" drivers?
Reply #6 - 09/20/05 at 22:33:38
 
Sorry, I guess it sounds like want to start a fight, but that's not the case. I'm hear to learn.

You mention a Celestion and I think of Marshall. The specs look pro audio, for sure. $65 sounds like a great price on a driver with those specs.


*****
oooh! I just found Avatar, is this the one? Great prices on close outs.
http://www.avatarspeakers.com/


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« Last Edit: 09/20/05 at 22:45:37 by DirtDawg »  
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serenechaos
Ex Member



Re: WO with 12" drivers?
Reply #7 - 09/21/05 at 00:20:50
 
[quote author=Braggi  link=1127148932/0#3 date=1127225000]Yes, but... the WO isn't a back horn, ...
[/quote]
Duh  :-[  
You're right, obviously so even.  
My head was still in the Imperial...
Robert  :)
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J_Rock
Ex Member



Re: WO with 12" drivers?
Reply #8 - 09/21/05 at 00:36:09
 
I think you are still right in the driver not entering into the calculations, seeing as how we don't have any formulas! hehe
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DirtDawg
Ex Member



Re: WO with 12" drivers?
Reply #9 - 09/21/05 at 01:19:21
 
Formulas? We doan neeet no sssteeenkin formulas!
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boydon_lepasci
Ex Member



Re: WO with 12" drivers?
Reply #10 - 09/21/05 at 01:32:33
 
With an xmax that small I would be looking for a true horn design. Although the BL isn't listed, by the looks of the motor assembly it should work in a horn.

As far as a formula on the WO, I came across a paper yesterday that looks promising if you're familiar with horn modelling. It's a little brief but could offer a start.

http://home.comcast.net/~j.vanommen/speakers/Single_Reflex_Bandpass_vs_Front_Loa...
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Braggi
Ex Member



Re: WO with 12" drivers?
Reply #11 - 09/22/05 at 01:34:14
 
Oops, you're right. That's only an eighth inch! The xmax on Steve's is .39 inches.

I'd hate to bottom out those pretty woofers. I sure like the 96 db sensitivity, though.

OK, folks. What should we put them in? Bet they'd work well in a labhorn. I don't really need 8 subwoofers though. (Labhorns are designed to work in sets of four as I understand it.)

Anyone able and willing to model the BX-12 in an Imperial?
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DirtDawg
Ex Member



Re: WO with 12" drivers?
Reply #12 - 09/22/05 at 02:30:27
 
I'd like to see a 125-150Hz straight horn for them. Probably get close to 3k before beaming. They would make some very hot midbass cabs. Or how about a 4 high line above a set of Imperials on thier sides? You don't want to get me started. Smiley
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richard03
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Re: WO with 12" drivers?
Reply #13 - 10/03/05 at 23:37:04
 
build a 12 inch variant, rather than the celestions use beyma lx60's, they are true monsters, have a 9mm x max , low qms, qes e.t.c
got a pair of wicked ones loaded with these and they are quite good, they try and play too low, we scaled the box up two inces in height and as a mod have scaled the horn throat back down to the 10 " size.

did a free party outdoors this weekend using a lx60 loaded wicked one and martin 215 (double 15 front loaded unfolded horn) as the bass stack, witha  pari of peavey 15" and 1 tops for ease and simplicity.

it reinforced my opinion that those two boxes as a combo make and absolutely nails bass stack for everything from dub to acid techno, cranked it at the end and played some of the more mental tracks off 'go plastic' by squarepusher , there was a bit of tarp around the bass stacks in case of raing with 10" or so flapping around at the bottom under the wicked one, it was getting a 1000w and you could see every bass note in the tarp, the held 20-25hz notes were a joy to behold.

the lx60's make the wicked one a 1400w pa cab, my only reservation currently is that we angled the baffle to fit the 12's in and i dont like the possibility of uneaven pressure loading, the mk.2's are gonna be about 6 inches wider, have the same horn rate and possibly be tapered down to a 10" throat size from the mid line of the box, if ya get me?

might possibly make the backchamber a bit smaller to make the box play a little higher, seems to have about +3-6 db giain below 4-50 hz which is fine for a sub however were planning on using 2 direct radiating 12's with a horn loaded 8" and 1" comp driver mid top for a slimline 4 box 7k monster pa.

cant wait untill the mid tops are financed and constructed i assure thee it will be a nails pa.

also on a unrelated note, google orgonite, build some (its cheap and easy), put it on your speakers (just a lump on top of the cab)....observations please (seemed particuarly good on a death box) Kiss
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J_Rock
Ex Member



Re: WO with 12" drivers?
Reply #14 - 10/04/05 at 01:37:28
 
Oh Richard!

I liek the idea of the 10 inch throat, I think I mentioned it back awhile ago.  Is it working out well for you?  Got any pics?
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