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Somebody stop me! (Read 10272 times)
brad
Ex Member



Somebody stop me!
09/08/05 at 07:54:04
 
The idea of trying this Aurum Cantus ribbon tweeter as a super-tweeter came from Dick Olsher and his BassZilla kit though that was using an open baffler and lowther driver...


OK. It's not like I'm trying to say the HDT's need help at both extremes. I just can't help experimenting with things (as long as it doesn't cost TOO much).  Hey, you never know what you might learn.  I'm totally sold on the effects of adding the little bass augmentors. I'm not sure about the effects of adding the Aurum Cantus G2si tweeter. There's certainly more detail, but it's brighter. Not in a harsh/grainy way,  it's brighter but still smooth. Not sure if I like it yet... and I'm not sure the imaging is any better and might even be worse.  Will monkey with it some more, and let them break in, and see what it sounds like... Wink Wink Wink ??? ??? ??? Kiss Kiss Kiss


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« Last Edit: 09/08/05 at 08:26:19 by Brad »  
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Chris K
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Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #1 - 09/08/05 at 12:16:14
 
STOP STOP BRAD STOPPPP!
What am I stopping? ???
Maybe talk you out of moving that tweeter down on the baffle by boring a big fat hole in that fine Ziggy veneer?
What is the tweeter crossed at?
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« Last Edit: 09/08/05 at 12:18:49 by Chris K »  
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Chris K
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Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #2 - 09/08/05 at 14:32:46
 
OK 1.0mf so thats about 19K if the tweeter is 8 ohms?
But the tweeter you have is 6 ohms so that would mean 1.0mf is crossed and 26K! WOW!
So you think that is bright what is the sensitivity at that freq. on the response plot? is there a peak somewhere. If you really wanto "go nuts" and experiment get some aircore inductors of the proper value and "roll off" the Fostex unit at around 10-12K and then you'll be doing some major changes w/o cutting your speakers. I'd like to say your seriously entering HDT MkII territory Brad! I asked Steve where the wool cone driver crosses on that design but no answer so I may be way off here. I know the HiVi ribbon they like at Decware is almost ruler flat with a smooth drop from 15-20K of about 3 or 4db, and they (Decware) cross it high in the RL-3 and lower (like 3K?) in the RL-1.5 but I am not certain of where the RL-3 is crossed. Just checked the HDT MKII wool driver reponse plot and it is fairly flat out to around 3K and peaks at 95db at 5K so I imagine Steve has the ribbon doing the bulk of the work above 3K. So what your doing is just rounding up the highest 10th of the last octave. Hardly seems worth it. How high can you hear? I'm 44 and I cant hear test tones much above 14,500Hz, So you hear a marked difference with this ribbon crossed at 6db/octave at 19K huh? Maybe I should park a tweetie up top of the Horns I just got. Sure don't sound like they need anything to me but they are not broken in yet. Hmmm ??? this experimentation of yours could be interesting and informative.
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« Last Edit: 09/08/05 at 14:40:29 by Chris K »  
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brad
Ex Member



Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #3 - 09/08/05 at 18:26:39
 
First off, this experiment is nothing like the MK-II. Efficiency of the FE206E is much higher than that wool driver as you know. The cabinet tuning is completely different - the MK-II uses the original MK-I tuning and passive radiators while mine has the "alternate tuning" of the MK-I with the new passive radiators. Also, the Aurum Cantus G2Si tweeter is about 4db more efficient than the HiVi tweeter better matching the FE206E output *and* the G2Si stays flatter out to 40k, real super-tweeter territory, though the merits of this is debatable.

Now, this is all fuzzy (perfect world) logic but... even though the crossover is high - somewhere around 25K, it is a 1st order. So at 25K we are 3db down (~93db/1w) from the 96db/1w spec, and 9db down at 12.5K (~87db) and somewhere around 6db down (~90db /1w) at around 19K.  Since this is additive to the FE206E's treble output wich is efficient even out to the 15-18K range, it's not difficult to see how this crossover setting is creating the brightness I was hearing.

I would not want to an inductor or any other components in the signal path to the FE206E because of the risk of messing up what it does and does well.  Maybe it would sound better? I'll leave that up to someone else to experiment with.  I'm looking for modifications that are purely additive without altering what is already there - which is very good.

Btw, I had some 0.47uf caps sitting around (two Auricaps and two AudioCap Theta's) and tried them out, replacing the 1.0uf Crescendo's with a pair of them in parallel - one of each brand.  You wouldn't think that a change from 1.0uf to 0.94uf would make much of a difference. But the result sounded smoother and less bright.  I much preferred it this way.

I listened to Diana Krall on CD and Andrea Bocelli on SACD. In particular the orchestral passages on the Bocelli disk sounded very very nice.  HDT indeed. This is a SHDT... Super High Definition Tower Cheesy

More listening and/or experimenting to come.
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« Last Edit: 09/08/05 at 18:37:31 by Brad »  
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Randy
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Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #4 - 09/08/05 at 18:58:33
 
Despite that fact that most of us cannot really hear anything close to 20K ..... an extremely extended high frequency driver adds a certain amount of air and openness to the sound that is hard to live without once it has been experienced ..... ???

That is one of the reasons I enjoy the Parker Audio Behemoths so much ..... the Heil AMT is one of those drivers ..... Grin

Anyone attending this year's DecFest will be able to hear some top shelf ribbon drivers in the Parker Audio Signature speakers .....


Randy
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thedude
Ex Member



Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #5 - 09/09/05 at 21:24:59
 
hmm, this made me think about something.  When you turn on a tv it makes a high frequency wining sound; what frequency is this sound?  -Matt
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Hrappur
Ex Member



Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #6 - 09/09/05 at 23:16:13
 
Dude that sound just means that you're TV is on its last legs Cheesy
Best thing really, means more time to listen to music, plus means that you can still hear ok Grin My grandparents had this same problem with their TV but they never heard that anything was wrong until it blew-up Embarrassed even they heard that!
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« Last Edit: 09/09/05 at 23:16:58 by Rap »  
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crazy bill the eel killer
Ex Member



Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #7 - 09/10/05 at 00:48:35
 
Hi Brad,
Going by memory, I don't believe the Aurum is a dipole ribbon (I'm too lazy to look up the spec sheet). If it's not, why don't you try mounting it on the rear of the cabinet firing towards the back wall. This should cut down on the brightness some w/o losing the air and sparkle this driver is capable of producing. Let us know.

Bill
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brad
Ex Member



Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #8 - 09/10/05 at 09:17:43
 
I don't hear as much brightness with the new crossover caps.  It sounds pretty good. There is some definite majic lost when I disconnect them - so I know they're doing something good.  I'm gonna let them break in some before messing with them more.
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Corey
Ex Member



Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #9 - 09/10/05 at 19:11:29
 
Brad,

You really motivated me to try some tweaks myself.



The coconut tweak. This really fattened up the sound.   Wink

Corey
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Corey
Ex Member



Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #10 - 09/10/05 at 19:28:55
 


The Paul Gilbert Intense Rock video tweak. This greatly increased speed and articulation.  ;)

Corey
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Corey
Ex Member



Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #11 - 09/10/05 at 19:49:28
 



Okay guys, I saved my best tweak for last. The Archery Research AR 31 tweak. This tweak is just plain deadly. I have kept this one to myself for quite some time but felt guilty. You saw it here first!  ;)

Corey
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brad
Ex Member



Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #12 - 09/10/05 at 23:52:25
 
Corey, is that sarcasm or just an interesting sense of humor you got there?  Not getting enough attention lately?  ;)  I can't tell if you're just trying to be funny or if you're implying that my experiments (with real audio components) are rediculous.
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Hrappur
Ex Member



Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #13 - 09/11/05 at 01:21:44
 
Brad the man just loves his HDT´s cant blame him Wink
I´m moved between fascinated and horror,following youre tweeks (kind-off like C.S.I) Its like watching the autopsy of a loved one(Im a newlywed HDT owner) but at the same time looking for the key to the safe-deposit box in the corps. I´m just glad its your HDT´s and not mine.......Youre A braver man than I Grin
Keep us posted

and take care, H.
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« Last Edit: 09/11/05 at 01:25:36 by Rap »  
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Corey
Ex Member



Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #14 - 09/11/05 at 01:26:01
 
Brad,

Pure humor. I just learned how to post pics today and wanted to have some fun.  :)

Take care Brad,

Corey
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brad
Ex Member



Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #15 - 09/11/05 at 08:09:18
 
[quote author=Hrappur  link=1126166044/0#13 date=1126398104] I´m just glad its your HDT´s and not mine.......Youre A braver man than I Grin
[/quote]

Why am a brave? All the things I've tried (so far) are reversible.
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Hrappur
Ex Member



Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #16 - 09/11/05 at 16:55:53
 
True. It´s just that I have often thought of a super-tweeter with the HDT´s (that was before I built them, had the drivers in a closet for 2 years) Now you have opened that can of worms in my head again ??? Now I have to know how it sounds Cry

The brave bit is in relation to explaining to the wife the change in esthetics of the living-room......At least I would have to summon up some courage here at my house Wink

Imo following your experiments with interest Grin

take care H.
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brad
Ex Member



Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #17 - 09/12/05 at 04:28:47
 
One conclusion I've already come to regarding the addition of the ribbon tweeters, they make bowed string instruments sound way more real/palpable. Maybe it's the added upper harmonics? dunno? But violins and especially Cello's sound way better. Plucked instruments also are crisper, but that I was expecting.  

The clarity I hear on some songs is literally startling at times.  ;D Cheesy Tongue

I've done some other tweaks to my TABOO and CSP that are of course contributing, but the tweeter is undoubtedly a large part of it.
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Corey
Ex Member



Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #18 - 09/12/05 at 04:51:10
 
I am sticking to single driver.

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Corey
Ex Member



Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #19 - 09/16/05 at 16:33:21
 
Brad,

     Okay now it is time to get serious. This is a serious tweak to the HDT's. True Triode.




Take care,

Corey
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Corey
Ex Member



Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #20 - 09/16/05 at 23:03:15
 
With true triode I feel I am getting the lure most DHT snobs rave about from a "real" triode just not the imaging. I must say I have had a taste of high fidelity and it is good.

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Hrappur
Ex Member



Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #21 - 09/17/05 at 02:26:46
 
Looks a bit like mono Corey Cheesy
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brad
Ex Member



Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #22 - 09/23/05 at 02:02:23
 
Well nobody's stopped me yet, so further I go down the path of Audio Nirvana... or is that Audio Neurosis?  ???  :'(

Having upgraded the coupling capacitors in my TABOO amp and CSP preamp, *and* augmented my HDT's with a super-tweeter and small subs, I just sent my Sony DVP-NS999ES SACD player into Modwright to have an interesting mod done to it.  Various simple mods in addition to completely bypassing the output stage, going direct from the DAC to outputs, and thereby bypassing a number of cheapie components in the signal path.  The high-gain of the CSP preamp allows me to do this.  Steve says he's done this type of thing before with good results.

Stay tuned fellow Dec-heads  :D
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« Last Edit: 09/23/05 at 02:05:05 by Brad »  
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serenechaos
Ex Member



Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #23 - 09/23/05 at 12:45:00
 
[quote author=brad  link=1126166044/15#22 date=1127437343] I just sent my Sony DVP-NS999ES SACD player into Modwright to have an interesting mod done to it.  Various simple mods in addition to completely bypassing the output stage, going direct from the DAC to outputs, and thereby bypassing a number of cheapie components in the signal path.  The high-gain of the CSP preamp allows me to do this.  Steve says he's done this type of thing before with good results.

Stay tuned fellow Dec-heads  :D [/quote]

I did the same with a toshiba 4960.  
(A handful of black gates and going direct from the DAC to new outputs).  
Works great (for not being vinyl...)
Robert  :)  
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brad
Ex Member



Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #24 - 10/15/05 at 16:14:01
 
For those interested, I settled (for now) on two .47 Auricaps in parallel for the tweeter crossover.  I had them already. Some day I'd like to try just one good cap - maybe a 1uF Mundorf silver/oil.

Btw, I have my 999ES back from Modwright now. Lovely/lush sound. Smoother, more analog-like sound. Less grain with seemingly a bit larger soundstage. Rediscovering my music collection now Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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« Last Edit: 10/15/05 at 16:15:31 by Brad »  
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DirtDawg
Ex Member



Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #25 - 10/15/05 at 18:15:22
 
Brad,

I think it's a neurosis Grin
I am also afflicted to the point I have to have my super/ultra tweet. Mine is crossed lower (13-14K) to help my older Fostex FE166.
You will probably agree that the type and quality of the cap makes an enormous difference in what you hear. I am still looking for the best sound from the cap in my setup. You mentioned Mundorf silver/oil (not foil?) and I'm planning to get several different types (and get serious soon) to try. Is that an oil filled cap you're talking about?

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« Last Edit: 10/15/05 at 18:16:22 by DirtDawg »  
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serenechaos
Ex Member



Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #26 - 10/15/05 at 20:20:27
 
DirtDawg,
Just curious, what kind of cab are the FE166s in?  
Robert  :)
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DirtDawg
Ex Member



Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #27 - 10/15/05 at 21:18:47
 
Robert,

OB, along with 2 - 15" OB helpers and a paper/mylar tweet, it's all working pretty well together. I actually cut away the tweet's mounting flange to decrease CTC and got them about 1/2" closer. I'm not sure how much that helped, but I feel better. Any recommendations for a see-through (hear-through?) XO cap? Cheesy
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Brian
Ex Member



Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #28 - 10/19/05 at 03:42:29
 
Mundorf silver foil & paper in oil are said to be very similar to Jensen  copper foil & paper in oil.  
Angela Instruments sells Jensens; I do not know an American source for Mundorfs.  diyparadiso has both Mundorfs & Jensens  
http://www.diyparadiso.com/price/stock-capacitor.htm  
if you don't mind importing from Antwerp.
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Falconer
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Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #29 - 10/19/05 at 17:01:52
 
Hey Brian, Madisound sells Mundorf
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brad
Ex Member



Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #30 - 10/19/05 at 18:48:27
 
Yes, Mundorf Supreme Silver/Oil is silver foil in oil. I put them in my TABOO as coupling caps. I also put Mundorf Supreme Silver/Gold and "regular" Mundorf Supremes in my CSP pre.

I'll most likely try 1uF Mundorf Silver/Oil as a xo cap on my ribbon tweeters. Right now I'm using two 0.47uf Auricaps in parallel.

I bought all the Mundorfs from Madisound.
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DirtDawg
Ex Member



Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #31 - 10/19/05 at 19:02:57
 
Thanks, Brad

That even gives me a place to start.  :)
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« Last Edit: 10/19/05 at 19:29:21 by DirtDawg »  
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franksmith
Ex Member



Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #32 - 02/02/06 at 20:21:25
 
I don't want to open an old debate but I'd like to know what kind of source you are using with supertweeter that have sound over 20khz.

About sacd are they able to go higher than 20k and is it's the case, are they recording made to go over 20k ? I mean microphone, mixing console and everything ...

As Im A fan of old analogue recording I can see the point even if I seriously doubt a old vinyl that as been played form more thant 10 time will still have frequency that high. Maybe the reel to reel, I just got one and some good recording.

but for digital media I hardly believe that a redbook would produce anything over 20k except for some nasty sound from dac conversion if there is no digital filtering.

Also the amplifier, if tube, need to have a good bandwith because some I have measured where droping very fast over 18-20khz.
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teepeeworks
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Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #33 - 02/02/06 at 21:01:07
 
Franksmith,

This is what Steve Deckert wrote on the subject in this paper:

http://www.decware.com/paper18.htm

Take care,

Corey
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franksmith
Ex Member



Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #34 - 03/20/06 at 01:54:50
 
After some measurement I've been able to understand why i had some trouble listening to cymbales with the hdt.

The high start to roll of at around 15k-16k. The bass also come very weak under 60hz, and are already rolling of from 100hz. I suppose that my room is too big for them.

For the HF, I don't know if it's related to the decware modification of the fe206e i received but an original fe206e seem to have more top end but also more focused.

I tried a pair of LCY100k tweeter installed on top of the hdt with great results.

I took new measurment with the tweeter and I'm now having a flat response to .... let's say well over the range medias can obtain.

Now the cymbales sound very accurate and powerfull.

For the bass I'm trying a pair of supravox 285 gmf in OB with eq correction.

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franksmith
Ex Member



Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #35 - 04/13/06 at 15:41:59
 
Small follow up.

I've tried the supravox 285 in bass renforcment. Even if they are very good, they simply can't follow the hdt and remove the impact of the hdt bass. I can't understand how a regular subwoofer can match with theses whitout altering the sound of the hdt. Just try "take five" from Dave Brubeck with and without the subwoofer it's incredible how the sound of the drum change with subwoofers. Probably a question of priorities (extention vs quality)

Also I realized that the hdt where working a little bit too hard to fill my big room.

What I've done is separate my room in two and use them only in half the space I was using with my acoustat X.

The new "room" is now around 11' by 15'.

The change is impressive, I use almost half the power I was using before at the same sound level. The bass is now way more present and the mid bass as more body, almost as my stats. They are still alive but I will need to do some acoustic work with resonnances when I raise the volume.



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gnat leader
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Re: Somebody stop me!
Reply #36 - 04/13/06 at 21:42:54
 
[quote author=franksmith  link=1126166044/30#35 date=1144939319]I can't understand how a regular subwoofer can match with theses whitout altering the sound of the hdt

[/quote]

You need allot of speed, which is tough to do with the heavy cones and high excursion of most subwoofer drivers - even with allot of power behind them.  What seems to work well are large high efficiency drivers, usually with low xmax, like in those used in the Imperials. Or, small drivers with light cones that can move fast.  This is what the small Yamaha subs I'm using have - 8" paper cone drivers - which are also servo controlled.  Granted these small drivers don't go super low and can't play as loud (won't rattle your house). But they add weight to the bass, are musical, and do minimal damage to the bass put out by the HDT's.  The integration is pretty good - better than more expensive sub's I've had in the past.  And they're cheap!
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« Last Edit: 04/13/06 at 21:44:29 by Brad »  
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