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Imperial upper end (Read 7795 times)
j_rock777
Ex Member



Imperial upper end
07/22/05 at 23:57:54
 
I am trying to price out a set of 2 imperials with 1 15inch Archer and 1 15 inch Warrior from steelsound.  But I have no idea what to do for the upper end.  I plan on Bi-amping since it will be easier to design(no XOs). So, any help would be appreciated:

Does anyone know where I can get the plans for the horns the Steve has on the top of his imperials?  Are they generic horns or do they need to be designed for the driver you want to use.  Also, what are some cheap effective drivers to use for horns the size to blance out with an imperial recieving 400watts to two 15 woofers with 98db efficiency?  Does the larger flare of Steve'd horns increase efficiency?  Hehe.

Thanks a bunch!  :D
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j_rock777
Ex Member



Re: Imperial upper end
Reply #1 - 07/23/05 at 00:45:05
 
BTW I envision a Dj booth with two imperials upright to the sides of it.  These two imperials and whatever I have to do for the high end being driven by two or more amps with a larger passive mixer for equalization and effects.  The entire thing would be able to play cds or mp3s or enable a DJ to hook up his tables and spin.  Are imperials the right choice for me? or do I need to go somewhere else in design.  Are two imperials enough for the loud club type enviroment?
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Braggi
Ex Member



Re: Imperial upper end
Reply #2 - 07/23/05 at 03:39:46
 
Are Imperials enough? Heh heh. I think they'll be able to earn their keep.

I just bought a pair of vintage Emilar EC 320a 2" exit drivers. I've only got a horn for one of them so I'm listening to one in place of my Heil driver. Wow. It's everything "they" said it would be. I'm reminded of the huge Altec surround sound system in the old "America the Beautiful" theater in the round at Disneyland. I heard this system several times when I was a kid and always have held it as the standard to emulate. I imagine it had Altec 288s on those huge multi-segmented horns (you could see the horns). It sounded like you were in the middle of the orchestra. The dynamics were barely to be believed and it wasn't even played all that loud.

Well, now I have something similar in my living room. I highly recommend 2" exit drivers with aluminum diaphrams (or phenolic). I've heard nothing real good about the titanium diaphrams that are common now.

I'm real happy to have these big old Emilars. Now what do I do with my collection of 1" exit Emilars? Hmmmm. Small systems, I guess. And monitors.
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j_rock777
Ex Member



Re: Imperial upper end
Reply #3 - 07/23/05 at 04:54:30
 
BTW, I built a semi-accurate 1/4 scale imperial out of cardboard using those cheap 4inch pioneers from PE.  I got bass response I have never heard from the little things.  I was quite amazed.
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Circlomanen
Ex Member



Re: Imperial upper end
Reply #4 - 07/23/05 at 07:28:06
 
Quote:
BTW, I built a semi-accurate 1/4 scale imperial out of cardboard using those cheap 4inch pioneers from PE.  I got bass response I have never heard from the little things.  I was quite amazed.

PICS??!
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gexter
Ex Member



Re: Imperial upper end
Reply #5 - 07/23/05 at 13:27:28
 
I second that!
they would be cute little things, a real conversation piece.
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j_rock777
Ex Member



Re: Imperial upper end
Reply #6 - 07/23/05 at 17:12:02
 
Well, I am kinda embareesed of the workmanship, I built them off the plans into a box I already had, its like I said, somewhat accurate.  But the main issue is I used a foil tape, so the entire thing is shiny! hehe

I guess I could post pics up later
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gexter
Ex Member



Re: Imperial upper end
Reply #7 - 07/23/05 at 19:24:45
 
prototypes are rarely pretty, Mine are pretty ( ugly ) that is.
No worries, Glad your playing around and I can learn something.
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gexter
Ex Member



Re: Imperial upper end
Reply #8 - 07/25/05 at 15:25:15
 
I thought I would try that 1/4 carboard Imperial Idea.
I have two 4 1/2 shielded woofers and two small horns. I cut the pieces late last night for one. Maybe I"ll finish this one if I can get by on even less sleep.
Now I have a half finished WO and 1/4 Imperial in progress.I can hardly wait until When I get back home on Thursday.

And no I am not going to post pics. Everyone will see I am a hack!
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footstony
Ex Member



Re: Imperial upper end
Reply #9 - 07/26/05 at 01:32:49
 
aww They can't be worse than mine!

http://au.geocities.com/footstony/half80.html

Regards Philip
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stvcmty
Ex Member



Re: Imperial upper end
Reply #10 - 07/26/05 at 02:23:34
 
Since you are looking at steel sound, check out the 12” round horn, and the PHD002c driver.
http://store.steelsound.com/Detail.bok?no=523
http://store.steelsound.com/Detail.bok?no=510

I like that combination.  The specs on the driver are quite conservative.  I used a frequency generator, and on the 12” horn, it was solid from about 850Hz to over 17KHz (above that, I cant hear well).

Why are you thinking active crossover?  I have found a fairly simple way to get a good passive crossover.  Drive your woofers full range.  Use a large capacitor (20uf) to keep the bulk of the low frequencies from the tweeter.  At a comfortable volume, put the capacitor in series with the tweeter, and parallel that with the woofers.  The tweeter should be too loud.  Add series resistors until the volume balance is right.  Then take the ohm load of the tweeter and the resistors together, plug that into a crossover calculator, along with the lower limit of the tweeter you are using.  The calculator will give you the capacitor value you need to replace the testing capacitor.



I have played with first and second order crossovers, with a full range woofer or woofers first order sounds best.  I have played with l-pads to keep the same impedance, and series resistors.  The series resistor is simple, and I think it sounds better.
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gexter
Ex Member



Re: Imperial upper end
Reply #11 - 07/26/05 at 02:32:16
 

those are, er , ah ,, well  a  carboard Imperial. But on the good side they are working Imperials.
15" in a carboard Imperial, thats pretty amazing actually!
this is somewhat funny because people made fun of me years ago when I made enclosures out of fiberglass reinforced cardboard.
A cardboard Imperial would be alot easier to move thats for sure.
and Ya you made me reconsider putting my Pics up when I get finished. That is if j_rock777 does'nt beat me to it!
I am freehand cutting ( no straight edge ) so when I glue them together it should be interesting.
But I think I'll see if I have some clear silicon around LOL!
I'll dig into your page a little deeper later, probably find some good tips.

Thanks Philip
My Apologies to j_rock777 for sidetracking his thread, sorry buddy!
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« Last Edit: 07/26/05 at 02:34:58 by gexter »  
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j_rock777
Ex Member



Re: Imperial upper end
Reply #12 - 07/26/05 at 21:48:37
 
No apologies needed, or accepted!  >:(

just playin!

I looked at that horn and tweeter combo and now that you said it sounded/worked out well I may plan on them.

I tried DLing HornResp and I cannot get it to install.  Anyone know how I can install it and model the two 15s in it?
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dank
Ex Member



Re: Imperial upper end
Reply #13 - 07/27/05 at 23:17:49
 
J_rock:  I have a pair of Imperials I use as subs.  I built them with removable baffle boards and have tried about a dozen combinations of 15" and 18" speakers.  I (later) came across someone on this forum stating that the speakers Fs / Qts should be high, like over 120, and that this is an indication of magnet strength and how well the speaker can move air - which is more important in a folded horn enclosure than in other types of speaker boxes.  I confirmed this by finding on-line somewhere a similar statement.  So, knowing enough to be dangerous, I made a list of the speakers I had tried and their Fs/Qts.  Not only did the speaker that I disliked the most have the lowest Fs/Qts (66-Black Widow 18"), but the speaker that I liked most had the highest Fs/Qts (166 Cerwin-Vega 18").  Looking at your Warrior 15, I see that its Fs/Qts is around 44 (50 oz magnet) and I can't even find the Archer 15 specs, but its got a 30 oz magnet so I suspect the Fs/Qts is even lower.

http://madisonspeakers.netfirms.com/0105/products/rawdrivers.htm

Bottom line is that I don't think those drivers are going to do justice to your Imperials.  Having never worked with a "full range Imperial", I don't know if any of this applies, but I suspect that at least one of your drivers needs to have a high Fs/Qts.  I have been looking hard and long at the Madison Executioner X 18 from steelsound because I like the 103 db sensitivity, the Xmax of 3/4 inch, the 4" voice coil, and the 200 oz magnet seems reasonable, but the Fs/Qts is only 66 and that scares me. - Dan
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footstony
Ex Member



Re: Imperial upper end
Reply #14 - 07/28/05 at 06:15:58
 
Hi Guys,

I agree the Qts and/or Qes of the Warrior 15 is probably a bit high for a horn, going by accepted models.

I wonder how they measured SPL though,.. it is so high to be almost unbelieveable.  100dB for a bass speaker with a high QES is very unusual.

This speaker could sound great on an open baffle however!
Imagine X4 would give you 106dB which is as much as a good horn!

Regards Philip




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j_rock777
Ex Member



Re: Imperial upper end
Reply #15 - 07/28/05 at 17:31:53
 
way to rain on my parade! what are some cheap drivers with the correct values then?  hehe I am majorly bummed that I don't get to build these but thankful for you guys saving me some time and MONEY!
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j_rock777
Ex Member



Re: Imperial upper end
Reply #16 - 07/28/05 at 18:40:10
 
so I want to take fs divided by Qes? is that it?  so 40/.4= 100right?  (thats a selenium driver)
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dank
Ex Member



Re: Imperial upper end
Reply #17 - 07/28/05 at 21:36:10
 
yep, you got it.  Is that the Selenium 15pw5-slf you are talking about?  Its in my PartsExpress catalog for $89 (a lot more than the speakers you wanted to use).  However you are probably talking $400 worth of materials to build your Imperials, so filling them with $25 speakers may not be the best bang for your buck.  If your going to spend $89 for a speaker, I think you might do better on Ebay.  You can sometimes find JBL E-140's in the $60 range which will put it up to $90 when you add shipping, and yea its a risk but I've bought a lot of good used speakers off Ebay (just be sure you get the shipping insurance), and a JBL E-140 has Fs/Qts = 32/.17 = 188.  Here is a link to the thiele - small data base which will help you out:

http://www.thielesmall.com/database.asp

(read the directions - I only enter diameter and brand)
Good luck.  Again, your probably only talking 1 speaker per (full range) Imperial that needs the high Fs/Qts.  The other needs good frequency response, ideally a coaxial.
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Braggi
Ex Member



Re: Imperial upper end
Reply #18 - 07/29/05 at 15:34:50
 
Gee whiz, Dank! That's quite a stack of speakers there. How about sharing some more pics and telling us your story. Looks like you could teach us a lot. A new thread maybe?

Thanks
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dank
Ex Member



Re: Imperial upper end
Reply #19 - 07/29/05 at 16:12:34
 
Braggi and all

See my post in the "Scorpion Vs Black Widow in Imperial" thread for some pictures and my story.  The pictures have changed a little from the descriptions in that post as I figured out a way to fit dual 18's in and thats what I'm running now, dual Cerwin-Vega 18's on both sides.
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stvcmty
Ex Member



Re: Imperial upper end
Reply #20 - 07/30/05 at 04:06:11
 
With all the talk about the inexpensive woofers that steel sound sells, I remembered this sight:
http://www.cheaplights.com/catalog/01_info.php?sec=411
They are a good place to get steals on woofers.  The 411-WF1558 is really a Gold Wood 1558, but I had to do some digging to find that out.  The 411-WF15120 is a gold wood 15120...
Stv
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j_rock777
Ex Member



Re: Imperial upper end
Reply #21 - 07/30/05 at 14:54:21
 
That site looks quite a bit cheaper! thanks for that, I noticed all of those woofers looked alot liek some better known companies.
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stvcmty
Ex Member



Re: Imperial upper end
Reply #22 - 08/31/05 at 01:35:31
 
J_rock777,

Did you get a quote from Steel Sound for the construction of an imperial?
[Without any drivers]

Stv
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J_Rock
Ex Member



Re: Imperial upper end
Reply #23 - 08/31/05 at 02:33:07
 
actually, i was hoping to build it myself, but i have run out of money and i had trouble selecting cheap, usable drivers.
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J_Rock
Ex Member



Re: Imperial upper end
Reply #24 - 10/01/05 at 21:31:35
 
How abotu those 15 inch goldwood lookign drivers on cheaplights:

http://www.cheaplights.com/catalog/01_info.php?sec=411

$56 a piece?
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Hrappur
Ex Member



Re: Imperial upper end
Reply #25 - 10/01/05 at 21:41:17
 
Ive seen bigger magnets on my fridge
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gexter
Ex Member



Re: Imperial upper end
Reply #26 - 10/02/05 at 02:53:05
 
LoL thats good one Smiley
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Brian
Ex Member



Re: Imperial upper end
Reply #27 - 12/19/05 at 23:23:17
 
[quote author=j_rock777  link=1122076674/0#0 date=1122073074]Does the larger flare of Steve'd horns increase efficiency? [/quote]
This is kind of an old thread but since nobody answered this question I thought it might be nice to get a discussion started.  It seems to me that since the larger mouth will permit the horn to play a broader spectrum, it will therefore play not as efficient as a one which was concentrating the driver's power into a narrower range.  
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