Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Decware Audio Forums
05/29/17 at 18:16:04 







Pages: 1 2 3 4 5
Send Topic Print
Hell, those aren't big ! (Read 17526 times)
Cayenne
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #50 - 12/31/02 at 15:52:03
 


[quote author=DrN  link=1040842968&amp/30#43 date=1041289211]
On Steve's file Win Media Player opens but it come up "data is invalid".

Peter, the MP3 works. Thanks!

Den
[/quote]

Hmm...perhaps this is a DRM issue? Particularly if it was recorded with Windoze...??

I think the last version that came out, had it as an 'option' that you can turn off....

I'm guessing soon, that this will no longer be an option....

Anyway, you might check on this?

C
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
mikes
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #51 - 12/31/02 at 18:25:37
 
Regarding Steve's adaptation of the Jensen Imperial, perhaps some of you would find these links interesting:

Jensen Imperial horn drawings:
http://home.earthlink.net/~lotusblossom/_wsn/page3.html

some Imperial pics:
http://community-1.webtv.net/KerrB/VINTAGETUBEAMPHORN/page6.html

Peace,
MikeS
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 2917
Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #52 - 12/31/02 at 23:51:37
 
Peter,

You are right about piano.  And Terry,  I did not touch the drum set.

As for the links, this is the "cut-corner" home version of the Imperial.  It was designed for a single 15 as was the original model Paul and I built.  Paul and I have built a pair of these also, still have them.  They do not compare to the full size imperial with one 15.  They really do not compare to the new models.  They do not go much lower than 37 Hz, and they sound sloppy compared to these new ones.

I got the compression drivers yesterday and one was dead out of the box.  I installed the good one on the cabinet with the two 15's and was pleased to find I need do nothing else.  I simply hung a 15 uf SOLEN cap on it and wired it up.  

The Solen compression driver is claimed to be 107dB with 1 watt.  I kinda expected to have to pad that down a bit, but that is not going to be the case.  In fact it could be 1 or 2 dB louder.  Adding it completely cleaned up the 15 inch woofers, now that the highs have a place to go.   After hooking it up, I realized in just a few minutes that all my suffering with the bent wood lenses was well worth it.  WELL worth it.  Amazing.

Today, a few of us found ourselves sitting around in the shop listening to public radio again.  I don't think anyone moved  for about 2 hours.  It really is amazing how just one cabinet can fill the room and have "stereo imaging" be the farthest thing from your mind.  It sounds so real, so live.  The incredible power it has even at low levels let you feel every note.  Besides piano, I have found horns to sound incredible, and acoustic bass on this speaker simply wastes Pauls 200 watt CLASS A all tube bass rig - also using 2 15 inch drivers.  Imagine that for a  minute.  Imagine an acoustic bass growling with textured low notes that are tight and powerful enough to make a good sounding electric bass sound stupid.  Well, this is what is happening.  

Got to go, we have a big get together tonight.

Steve
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Brian
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #53 - 01/02/03 at 03:01:32
 
Peter said: "The source of the recording is one speaker cabinet, so other than the background shakers etc, most of the 'image' is artificially created. Whether it was caused by the recording or by the mismatched drivers who's to say."

This makes me think the speakers may sound best with mismatched drivers when listening to only one, but when listening to both of them well matched drivers may be neccesary to create a sound stage.  
Not an important point since Mr. Deckert will do an empirical test rendering my speculation moot, but I love to speculate.  
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 01/02/03 at 03:38:31 by Brian »  
  IP Logged
Audioillusion
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #54 - 01/03/03 at 09:09:28
 
Mr. Deckert,

You certainly tell a good story. I'm skeptical of the sound I'm hearing out of the horn speaker you've built. It's sounds simply amazing. I know you had a stereo microphone set-up due to the background noises I'm hearing (some howling?, shakers, talking). That's not what amazes me. It's how 3D the jazz music I'm hearing sounds.

I listened through a pair Sennheiser HD590's directly out of my sound card so I'm certain I'm receiving a relative realistic presentation of these particular recording. Direct to DSD recording sound eerily realistic while using these headphones so I'm confident I'm hearing the full potential of this recording due to the potential I know these cans contain.

I'm very skeptical of these horns sounding as "life like" as the (short) wave file I've heard.  The full length wave file has been official labeled as a lost cause. I've tried the MP3, it does sound like an MP3 compared to the wave file, in other words it sounds like a four letter word. However I think the MP3 and the wave file are of the same source so I'll say these recording came from the same source. I also will say that the shakers prove the recording is legit.

What I don't understand, why does the jazz sound stereo and life like through only a mono 15" bass guitar drivers. What makes a horn sound so life like?
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 01/03/03 at 09:12:07 by Audioillusion »  
  IP Logged
Jimmy
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #55 - 01/03/03 at 11:53:22
 
I'm glad I poked my head in to take a peek at what you guys have been up to.  I liked the shakers myself.  Real purist recordings are so nice sometimes.  None of the over compressed flatness of the "finished" products offered as music.

As for the sound from the horn...  I think its pretty cool that you could capture a reproduced source with such finess.  I do however question the accuracy of all of us listening to a reproduction of an event through our own colored speakers and equipment.  I know you mentioned that we would only be exposed to the concept of the event and that we wouldn't have the true experience reproduced for us because of this inconvienence, but I do wonder if what we're all hearing is the same thing?
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Terry
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #56 - 01/03/03 at 16:10:07
 

I don't know about you Jimmy, but I hear a lot, even though this is not what I would listen to everyday for pleasure.  I have done enough recording that I know the dynamic range protrayed in this recording is incredible.  I wonder how loud it it is, sounds pretty loud to me, with the voices in the back ground being faint.  But then I have this vision of the Mic being about ten feet from the speakers too.

Dynamics in recordings are what make it sound natural, otherwise the back ground noise comes up to a level that it is appearent.  Dynamics are a very important part of sound reproduction, and the weakest link are our speakers most of the time.  When I was in the industry our studio monitors were 104dbs 1w/1m, they put speakers in the studio like that for a reason, and it wasn't because they didn't have enough power.

TG Grin
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Jimmy
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #57 - 01/03/03 at 18:32:36
 
Oh, and I forgot to mention...  Steve, Those things kick ass!  :D  Very impressive horn's you've built.

Granted I've been out of the scene around here for a while, but we've always seemed to be pretty happy with what we're using.  So I'm just curious as to how much of the actual horn we're getting across on this little file.  I'm very pleased with the sound from the file, but it does remind me of radio quality in dryness. (which is why I was enjoying the moving shakers so much)  Volume is another issue as you correctly stated the background voices are very faint.  I'll admit I only listened to the file once and was playing it straight through my sound card into my preamp.  So right there is a source of variation from the source I'm using vs what most of you probably did. (I don't have a burner on this comp)  I can say that the soundcard i'm running is rather neutral for the most part. (I've tested it as an RTA with software and a decent mic)

I like the premise of the experiment.  I thought it was neat hearing a very dynamic set of doomed speakers perform like champs, but I just wonder how much of the experience is lost in transmission.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Peter
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #58 - 01/03/03 at 19:54:26
 

[quote author=Audioillusion  link=1040842968&amp/45#54 date=1041584968] I've tried the MP3, it does sound like an MP3 compared to the wave file, in other words it sounds like a four letter word. [/quote]

I strongly dispute this.

Firstly, what soundcard are you using?  There are not many soundcards whose amps are good enough for your headphones.  I was using a Roland SD-90 24/96 studio audio interface, and I couldn't tell the difference.  Admittedly I wasn't using 'audiophile' headphones, since I didn't have them with me,  but even so...

If it really does sound that bad, then surely you can tell the difference easily between clips if I post a/b of the original file, and the mp3 converted back into WAV.  Fancy a challenge?   Grin I wasn't using LAME, just cooledit (another studio-quality piece of software btw), I'm sure you could not tell the difference if I used LAME, and I'm pretty sure the guys at syntrillium would be upset if you could even with cooledit.  

Or maybe it's just your mp3 software which you need to change, but that too I find odd, most software is capable of accurate playback.  What software are you using?

Damn I need my 'real' gear.  I'm fed up of making compromises.

Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Peter
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #59 - 01/03/03 at 20:39:14
 
I take that dispute back. I was going to put a 'mp3 challenge' up as a new thread to see if you really could tell the difference so easily, despite that I previously couldn't.  So I prepared a clip, and then when I A/Bd my specially prepared clip the difference was indeed obvious -- even with my laptop soundcard.  I should have used LAME to encode it.  Sorry about that folks.  It must be the syntrillium plugin.


--Addendum:  Even so, the crazy imaging is still there.  Where did that come from?
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 01/03/03 at 20:41:20 by lindseyp »  
  IP Logged
steve_f
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #60 - 01/03/03 at 21:13:29
 
Hi Everyone,
I,m just wondering if all of us are hearing some kind of attractive phasing anomoly from using two mismatched woofers in the Imperial speaker.  Steve, have you tried a pair of matched woofers yet?  Honestly, I wonder what both Imperials sound like, even with mismatched woofers.
Take care,
Steve F
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
hurdy_gurdyman
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #61 - 01/03/03 at 22:32:54
 
>Even so, the crazy imaging is still there.  Where did that come from?<

If the recording was done with a pair of mics for stereo, there will be some kind of image even from a mono source. The room itself will contribute different sounds from different directions, thus a stereo image of some sort will develop. At least I think so.
Dave Grin
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Audioillusion
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #62 - 01/03/03 at 22:53:41
 
[quote author=Peter  link=1040842968&amp/45#59 date=1041626354]
I take that dispute back. [/quote]

I was really interested in your challenge. The perceived difference in the MP3 and WAV is blatant in my opinion, glad we see eye to eye. I've done MP3 A/B's before, I nailed the MP3s every time.

I was listening through a stereo receiver that was connected to my sound card so amplification wasn't much of a problem. Especially since my phones are really efficient. I know the DAC in my sound card isn't the best but the recordings were still very reveling.

[quote author=Peter  link=1040842968&amp/45#59 date=1041626354]
--Addendum:  Even so, the crazy imaging is still there.  Where did that come from?
[/quote]

My guess is since Steve's recording was so pure, meaning it wasn't damage by a recording "engineer", and since Steve's horns are able to accurate reproduce the signal, the way our brain perceives the music is true to the actual music which is why it sounds life like. Even through we weren't listening to a stereo pair of speakers, the horns were still able to transmit the necessary acoustic information to our brain. Remember the brain is what perceives a sounds location by analyzing the properties of the sound. Not sure exactly how our brains do this, but I?m sure the ?Illusion? of a 3D played-back sound has more to do with preservation of the acoustic information than the number and location of the speakers.

It?s my belief that the best possible recording is one with the least amount of distance between the microphone and our ears. In other words: the simpler the recording the better. For example: every time an EQ, mixers, compressors, ect. is used during a mixing session, information that our brain needs to recreate the true sound of the music is lost. These tools make the original acoustic information untrue to the music. It?s like copying a video tape, with each copy of a copy the video quality degrades. A lot of mixes are guilty of something similar. In Steve?s recording, everything was preserved why it sounds life like.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Peter
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #63 - 01/03/03 at 23:02:50
 

[quote author=Audioillusion  link=1040842968&amp/60#62 date=1041634421]
I've done MP3 A/B's before, I nailed the MP3s every time.
[/quote]
Hehe.. I think with the right tools, (i.e. LAME on the r3mix setting or some of the 'better' alternatives) I could persuade you otherwise.  I have done A/B on those before with far better kit and been gobsmacked.

But not right now.. it's late Wink

As for the image, I'd *really* like to know if it was there 'live'.   I seriously doubt it.  Remember Steve's recording was far short of 'audiophile' quality, so that might have had something to do with it.

My secret theory is that all imaging is artificial Wink --either intentional or incidental --  how sought after it may be.  Especially 3D imaging.


Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Albert
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #64 - 01/04/03 at 05:48:22
 
Peter..dude..you are getting way too deep for me at this late hour, I mean I think I understood what what you said...and that scares me Grin
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Brian
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #65 - 01/04/03 at 06:52:13
 
Audio Illusion wrote:  "It's my belief that the best possible recording is one with the least amount of distance between the microphone and our ears. In other words: the simpler the recording the better."

There is a good commentary on this at http://www.xs4all.nl/~rabruil/dongabor1.html  which is a site about Don Gabor's Remington record company in the early fifties.  Apparently Don did not have the money for elaborate equipment so he used simple stuff and accidentaly made great records.  Lots of fascinating biographies of classical pianists and violinists at that site too.  

Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Corpsdriver
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #66 - 01/04/03 at 16:04:14
 
Audioillusion wrote, Quote:
Steve's recording was so pure, meaning it wasn't damage by a recording "engineer"


You know, i may as well let the cat out of the bag. All recording engineers today are contracted by a government agency, to insert "damage" and subliminal messages. The end result is "mass birth control" by destroying the male libido, not to mention invoking paranoid delusions, and an inability to take amature recordings at face value. Roll Eyes

I Honestly dont mean to offend anyone, I just wanted to show contempt fot the "William F Buckley Jr." tangent that seems to surface at times in this forum...

Jamie

Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Corpsdriver
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #67 - 01/04/03 at 17:56:28
 
Boy am i gonna catch hell for that one... Shocked
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 2917
Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #68 - 01/04/03 at 18:24:15
 
If you do catch hell for it, I hope it's in a new thread!  

I have received 4 matched woofers for the cabinets.  Still waiting for a replacement compression driver. The new drivers are real nice, but I doubt they will fly.  We installed a pair in the other cabinet last night and everyone liked the miss-matched drivers better.  The new drivers do not have the midrange and I believe that is most of it, however it raises many questions.  

I'll try to do a complete update over the weekend with a few more pics.

Steve
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 01/04/03 at 18:25:22 by Steve Deckert »  
WWW   IP Logged
hurdy_gurdyman
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #69 - 01/04/03 at 21:04:40
 
There is an interesting driver for sale in the MCM Electronics catalog for $73.00 each. Part #55-1880. Specs are:
Power handling-400W (I don't think a Zen would be a threat)
SPL- 98dB/W/M 2.8V
Fs- 28Hz
Vas- 16.36 cu.ft.
Qts- .231
Qes- .274
Qms- 1.457
Xmax- 4.4mm/.17"
DCR- 6.6ohm
Magnet weight- 100 oz
Voice coil- 4"

Not sure how high up the frequency range will go. It seems to be hard to get large drivers that will go high these days.
  This driver sounds interesting for the money, and I think it would work in a horn. But then, what do I know  ::) Grin
Dave Grin
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 01/04/03 at 21:20:15 by hurdy_gurdyman »  
  IP Logged
Brian
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #70 - 01/04/03 at 21:07:53
 
Sorry about bringing Don Gabor into this thread.  I will move him over to the music lover's forum.   Lips Sealed
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 01/04/03 at 21:18:11 by Brian »  
  IP Logged
stone_of_tone
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #71 - 01/07/03 at 18:42:20
 
Steve, I want to hear the latest.....I know...you said you will try to post over the rest of the weekend....I will be patient Roll Eyes

Stone of Tone 8)
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
pmwoodward
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #72 - 01/08/03 at 17:06:35
 
Steve, too funny!! that A-bomb gave me a good laugh!
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 2917
Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #73 - 01/11/03 at 23:29:17
 
Okay, I think an update is in order!

First a few observations about the miss-matched drivers.  One came from a Plush Bass Cabinet and featured a 2 inch voice coil.  It has incredible tone, and basically no mids.  It was the woofer on the right in the pictures.  The left woofer was an inexpensive Eminence PA speaker.  It not only has a midrange but has a 10 dB rise in the midrange a 2K.  This is why the speaker had such good presence and tone.  

When you walked up to the speaker and listened to each driver at close range, the one on the right sounded wonderful and the one on the left sounded like crap - enough to make you instantly take 3 steps back.

The new woofers I ordered came in.  They are probably not ideal for this project, but we're thinking about selling them for sub woofer projects so I wanted to try them.  We mounted a pair of them in the other cabinet and as I mentioned before, everyone leaned towards the miss-matched pair in the other cabinet.

The new woofers also roll off quickly, and sound very similar to the Plush woofer with the good tone.  After playing around for a couple nights I decided we would need more midrange like we had with the miss-matched pair, but without the nasty peaks.

I had a pair of Peavey woofers that when compared to the miss-matched pair fell right in the middle.  The reason the midrange was important to get from the woofers rather than getting it from the bent wood horn is in a word - "hit".   The snare drum crack that comes off so tight you jump, and the kick drum that pops your chest is a function of the higher frequency response of the 15 inch woofers.  The Peavey woofers had the "hit" we needed but no low bass.  The new woofers have the low bass but lack the snap.  It is difficult to find both in a single 15 inch driver.  The new drivers has response down to 30 Hz.  The Peavey drivers are down to around 70 Hz.

We installed one of each in each cabinet.  We put the Peavey driver towards the inside on each side. This is working well with no problems of any kind that we can see or hear.

I installed 1 inch of fiberfill on the back of the interior chambers behind each woofer on the left cabinet.  The right cabinet was left with no damping to see what is better.  Interestingly, most people choose the cabinet with no stuffing because of the added presence it has.  For outdoor use I would recommend it that way.  I like the smoother response of the stuffed cabinet and recommend that for indoor use.  I was pleased to find that the shape of the chambers behind each woofer were not creating any standing waves that hurt the sound.  

Steve  :)
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 2917
Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #74 - 01/11/03 at 23:49:50
 
So as you might have guessed we are now listening to a matched pair of cabinets (each with miss-matched woofers).  I still do not have my compression drivers because the original ones I ordered only went up to 9K.  I am now waiting for another pair of something else that will handle between 1.5 ~ 20KHz.  In the meanwhile I have a pair of low grade compression drivers installed using a simple capacitor for a crossover.  The woofers are running in parallel with no crossovers.

The overall frequency balance at this stage is surprisingly flat.  I was also pleased to find out that when you toe them in and stand in the sweet spot you actually get one hell of a sound stage!  Very believable imaging too.  I am very pleased with the bent wood horns and learned something very important as a result of building them.  I will make plans and a white paper available soon where I will try to explain what I discovered about horn flare design.

So for the past week we've just been playing with them.  In this state, they work for any purpose.  PA use, no problem.  Home audiophile use, no problem.

To date, these are the tightest most extended speakers I have heard at any price and any size, including live concerts.  Turning these speakers up loud is an experience you'll never forget.  There is no ear fatigue, and it sounds convincingly live on any type of music.  The effortlessness and shear power is unreal.  I can only compare them to my Acoustats which I listened to last night.  The Imperials sound lower and hit harder and sound tighter in the bass than the Acoustats which should be impossible.  On everything else, they demonstrate a presence that is not found on the Acoustats.  The richness and harmonic textures of piano, string bass, etc. sound more real on the Imperials.  This is because the cabinet is like a piano and you sense it's presence when it plays because it is really there.  On these speakers it is really there too, the mass and size is the same.  Interesting stuff to say the least.

I have never been a person to listen to music loud because my distortion alarm always goes off about half way there.  On these speakers it has not gone off yet, and I'm sure we have listened in excess of 120 dB from time to time.  My ears have yet to ring from listening to these, yet at lower volumes our own band has created the dreaded ringing you hear when you go to bed later that night.  That means ringing is not tied to SPL, but rather a side effect of distortions.

I have just about completed the blueprint for the Imperial.  I plan to give it away for free to everyone following this thread.  Later they will be available on the site for sale.
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Albert
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #75 - 01/12/03 at 00:09:37
 
"I plan to give it away for free to everyone following this thread"

pant, pant...drool, drool.......my saw is warmed up and ready to go!
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
EZ_Angus
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #76 - 01/12/03 at 00:40:26
 

In that case, I'd like to go on record as saying that I AM FOLLOWING THIS THREAD!!!!!


EZ
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Corpsdriver
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #77 - 01/12/03 at 02:22:13
 
ok, i am ready to buy the plans... i may overdraw my account,  but i feel these are worth it! Anyone in the market for a pair of a/d/s L1590's? i need to finance a pair of Decware Crown Imperials!
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Brian
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #78 - 01/12/03 at 02:42:21
 
I would like to add that not only do You report that they sound great, but they look beautiful too.  I can not remember a more pleasant looking speaker.   Cheesy
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 2917
Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #79 - 01/12/03 at 03:29:03
 
Had an interesting revelation this evening while sitting in the shop listening to the Imperials. A new audio term that I will call "transient balance".  While I was listening tonight and pondering the contrasts between what I was hearing from the Imperials and what I would be hearing from a conventional pair of audiophile speakers, I realized something.  

One of the many reasons why conventional audiophile speakers could never sound like this is because the transient balance of regular speakers changes from driver to driver - from woofer to tweeter.  It also changes between the bass and midrange frequencies of a single conventional woofer.  This is what lets your mind know that you are listening to speakers rather than the real thing.  I mean let's face it, if your stereo actually sounded real your mind would short circuit and you would be struck with fear - not unlike seeing a real ghost.  

Anyway, these speakers seem to have a transient signature that is in tact across the entire frequency band.   Besides the Acoustats, I have never heard a speaker that did.  And even though the Acoustats are technically superior on paper, the horns have velocity in the bass and dynamics that even the acoustats could only dream about.  

Transient balance is a definition of transient response across the frequency balance of a loudspeaker.  Regular speakers have wavering transient balance that usually declines with frequency.

All of this is frankly a surprise to both Paul and myself.  Even though this is the 6th time we've built Imperials, they were all by the original plans and with a single driver.  And they were good, but warmer and slower.

Remember, or FYI, back in the 1980's Paul made me build a pair of these so his wife wouldn't see him making them.  I guess he thought he could hide them in his garage.  I agreed and after finishing the first cabinet I robbed a 10 inch woofer from a pioneer bookshelf speaker and stuck it in the cabinet to see what would happen.  The bass response I heard come out of that single 10 inch woofer was so mind blowing that I made a decision right there and then to devote all my attention to audio, the reason DECWARE actually came to be.  I heard two identical speakers, one in the bookshelf cabinet and one in the Imperial and could barely grasp the difference.  It taught me in no uncertain terms that there WAS magic in audio and I wanted more of it!

Cheers

Steve
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
thedude
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #80 - 01/12/03 at 03:50:31
 
i always knew there was a magic troll in my subwoofer box, the more i cranked the amp up, the more the electricity shocked him and the harder he punched that woofer Shocked, of course the imperials are a lot bigger then my subwoofer, hell you could prob get a pair of lord of the rings cave trolls in each one Grin, now...how can i shoehorn two into my dormroom when i go back to school 8)  -Matt
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
hurdy_gurdyman
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #81 - 01/12/03 at 05:10:02
 
>I have never been a person to listen to music loud because my distortion alarm always goes off about half way there.  On these speakers it has not gone off yet, and I'm sure we have listened in excess of 120 dB from time to time.  My ears have yet to ring from listening to these, yet at lower volumes our own band has created the dreaded ringing you hear when you go to bed later that night.  That means ringing is not tied to SPL, but rather a side effect of distortions.<

If you recall, a while back I mentioned having read an article about evidence suggesting that one could listen at much higher levels to sound that sounded good without damaging ones ears. It had to do with the ears being relaxed because you are enjoying what you are listening to. Any distortion would cause discomfort, and cause the eardrum and such to tighten up, and you have listener fatigue soon followed by ringing, and eventually, damage.
I don't think anyone took it serious at the time. Wink


On another topic:
>I heard two identical speakers, one in the bookshelf cabinet and one in the Imperial and could barely grasp the difference.<

I have had similar experiences. The 10 inch drivers I have now sound far more alive in the TQWP cabnets then the one fourth the size bass reflex boxes they came out of. The origional boxes are well built and seem to be tuned correct for the speakers. The bass from the TQWP's is just much more alive sounding. Makes me wonder why anyone would want a small bass reflex speaker anymore.
Dave Smiley  


Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 01/12/03 at 05:11:26 by hurdy_gurdyman »  
  IP Logged
Eli Duttman
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #82 - 01/12/03 at 08:11:12
 
>Makes me wonder why anyone would want a small bass reflex speaker anymore.<

When you are a space challenged NYC apartment dweller as I am, small bass reflex speakers are attractive because they fit into the limited space available.  Necessity being the mother of all invention, I've been forced to acquire some expertise in subwoofer/satellite speaker setups.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Terry
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #83 - 01/12/03 at 09:13:16
 
Steve,

What you call "transient balance", I call "linear dynamic tracking", I think we are speaking to the same thing.  Meaning that the entire speaker can product the same level of dyanamics at all frequencies equally particularly how this relates to the speed of each driver.

My ideas of how to go about achieving this are a little different, so I am very interested in what you come up with in the end.  I am thinking of having a compression driver that extends as low as possible, below 500Hz, and a front horn loaded 15" woofer below that.

I like your idea of mismatched drivers, having that ability by two 15" drivers in each speaker is a real plus.  Often I feel it is not the tecnology that is flawed often, but how it is implimented.

I think with your offer we will have more people following this thread now.  I can't wait to see what the total size of these speakers is, so that I can see if I have enough room for them to try out.

TG Grin
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Brian
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #84 - 01/12/03 at 10:11:05
 
You know Steve, I have been looking at photos of Your listening room... are You going to have room for dual Imperials in there?  
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
hurdy_gurdyman
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #85 - 01/12/03 at 14:58:25
 
My Dad is no longer using his barn. Perhaps I should build these and turn the barn into a suitable listening room. The haymow, with arched roof, is part of a smallish barn, but still way bigger then a typical living room. What a place for parties!
Dave Grin
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Terry
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #86 - 01/12/03 at 16:24:22
 

Eli,

With some very desirable drivers folded Voight Pipes are a real option as well, only they have better quality bass.  Have you thought of trying some?  What are you running for speakers right now?

Terry
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 01/12/03 at 16:25:48 by Terry »  
  IP Logged
Eli Duttman
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #87 - 01/12/03 at 17:12:19
 
Terry,

Folded or not, TQWP enclosures are floor standing.  The interaction with the floor is an important part of TQWP bass performance.  A pair of floor standing speakers in my MULTI-purpose living room is out, as there simply is no room.

I have 2 pairs of small bookshelf speakers that get exchanged.  The 1st pair are 1st generation ProAc Tablettes that Mr. Deckert did a MAJOR overhaul on a while back.  The bass performance of the Tablettes is remarkable considering that the cabinet volume is about 1/3 ft.3.  I power the ProAcs with either my H/K Citation II or my AVA FET-Valve.  The efficiency of the Tablettes is TOO low for them to be a good match for a ZEN amp.  The 2nd pair of speakers are my own design that use 94 dB. efficient (nominal) drivers in a 0.55 ft.3 enclosure. The main driver runs full range.  A 2.2 muF. capacitor keeps low frequency information out of the tweeter.  FWIW, the simulation plot for the main driver and 56 Hz. vented enclosure combination is flat within 1 dB. down to 50 Hz.  I use the "homebrew" speakers with my SE84Bs.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
peteM
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #88 - 01/12/03 at 17:15:43
 
come back from a holiday and find this thread -- took over an hour to read it all -- gob smacked over the pictures -- beeyootiful speakers. okay --- plans for a music room on hold -- to absorb size of horns. looks like i now have a dream!!!! to fulfil.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
homeyhomes
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #89 - 01/12/03 at 17:52:38
 
STEVE,

Do the Imperials sound best when close to the wall  ?
I think most would not want them out from the wall
as they are pretty hefty.

What do You think the overall Speaker Impedance
will be when all said and done ?

4 ohms would probably make the most sense, as
this would work well with ALL the Zen amps.
Of course with the very high sensitivity this probably
isn't a large concern.

Homey

Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 2917
Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #90 - 01/12/03 at 19:31:57
 
Brian,

Not a chance.  They'll just have to stay where they are.  

Dave,

The Barn idea is great.

Homey,

The the bass will certainly couple much better close to the wall.  That is the way we expect most people to use them.  Even against the wall, they are still 28 inches out into the room.  The impedance will be 4 ohms in most cases.  However, in a smaller room I would like to try two 4 ohm woofers in series and let the natural 15 degree phase shift that occurs create some magic - it usually does.

Terry,

The overall size is around 65 inches high, 38 inches wide and 28 inches deep.  In case of tornado, I would take shelter in the speaker since It's so heavy and can easily support the weight of a house.

Cheers, Steve
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
mikes
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #91 - 01/13/03 at 16:24:24
 
Steve,

Glad to hear you will make the modified Imperial + horn lens plans & white paper available to us.  I've been using an inexpensive Alpha12 Eminence PA driver (low ZMAX) and cheap HF horn with my Zen for many months now and continue to be impressed with the BANG I'm getting for the BUCK, even though I haven't given the LF driver a chance to show its stuff in a huge cab like the Imperials.  How interesting that we're talking about such 'old' technology and how good it can sound...

Peace,
MikeS
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 01/13/03 at 16:43:59 by mikes »  
  IP Logged
Corpsdriver
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #92 - 01/13/03 at 21:26:18
 
I just sent the url for this thread to my audio company partner, (he also helped my build my HWK) He says he can hardly wait to sink his saw teeth into this project! He wants to make the bentwood lenses too, but i have a 3' pair of vintage JBL 2" lenses already... i wont argue with him. Looks like i may need to buy a new AB Precedent amp... some Altec, or JBL compression drivers... (dreaming)

Jamie
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Jim
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #93 - 01/13/03 at 22:51:35
 
This project is really interesting, I just can't convince myself that 2 speakers that would be OVER 6 FEET wide would work very well in my listening room with it's 10 foot wall!

I think it would really convince my friends (not to mention wife) that I'd finally lost it.

Happy Listening,
Jim
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
hurdy_gurdyman
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #94 - 01/13/03 at 22:55:25
 
>I think it would really convince my friends (not to mention wife) that I'd finally lost it.<

My wife and family and friends are already convinced that I've lost it!
Dave Grin

Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Corpsdriver
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #95 - 01/13/03 at 23:03:24
 
I never had it to lose in the first place... i did rent some of "it" for a few days... then i left it somewhere... i hope someone gave it a good home.

Jamie
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
steve_f
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #96 - 01/14/03 at 02:53:20
 
Hi Everyone,
Like Steve and a few of the other members,  I'm simply amazed at how much different a driver can sound in different cabinets.  I can't wait to try building the Decware Imperials!  
There really is magic in a good horn design. Steve, it sure sounds like you found some!
Take care,
Steve F
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Terry
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #97 - 01/14/03 at 07:59:22
 
Steve,

Have you ever thought of trying the JBL 2226G's in this cabinet.  I would think they would work well, sound good, and be a good match for a Zen SE84CS with their 4 ohm impedence.  I recently heard these and have been very impressed with them for a high efficiency driver.  They have a fairly smooth frequency response as well, with nice bass extention.

TG Grin
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
MagMan
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #98 - 01/15/03 at 00:53:50
 
Funny you should mention the JBL 2226's I just got a pair but now that Steve is going to hook us up with the plans (THANK YOU STEVE!) I am going to have to get another pair. The old Fraizer wood horns I got off E-Bay showed up. I installed the drivers (sounds like the same ones Steve had) and used the EV st350 tweeter and some old EV Sentry 4 crossovers I had using my Ohm Walsh 4's just for low end. (I know, don't say it I just wanted to hear the horns) THe 4's need to go now so it looks like they are E-bay bound. I already have a spot for the Imperial's
Mike
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 2917
Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #99 - 01/15/03 at 03:50:07
 
UPDATE

9:17 pm.  I'm beat.  The bed is calling... back hurts, thinking about skipping the nighty ritual of sitting out in the shop listening to the jazz station on the radio (with the Imperials).  9:41 pm. Oh what the hell...  9:51 p.m. I sit there in my chair staring at the bent wood horns thinking I really should at least varnish the other one so they match.  10:00 p.m. Standing on my tip toes varnishing the insides of the horns - while listening to them of course.  

(Every now and then the audio Gods decide you need to know something and give you the strong spontaneous urge to do something they know will cause a chain of events that allows them to teach you something.  You always know if the discovery was your own, or if it was an intentional lesson by the sudden spontaneity of it.)

The most amazing thing happened while I was varnishing.  As I applied the varnish, while it was still shiny and laying on top of the surface, the sound would come out of the varnish!  Just a 6 inch square area in the throat raised the presence by 3dB. It was unmistakable, yet I couldn't believe it.  Before you know it, I was varnishing like a mad man trying to get the whole inside of the horn wet before it would tack up because as soon as it tacked up the effect went away.

My overwhelming gut feeling is that there is more to it than just the difference between the shiny or rough surface.  The sound was magic.  These horns are working so well it's really amazing me.  The dispersion is simply incredible.  Absolutely NO beam even at a distance of 1 foot away.  In any case having a glass smooth finish inside THIS horn raises the output by several dB and widens the dispersion angle by a very noticeable amount.  Having a wet finish, like liquid, creates the magic as the surface tension between the air and liquid apparently isolate the wave front from the resonance of the horn walls - improving coherency.  Oh God, I'm starting to sound like Terry.  :-/
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5
Send Topic Print