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Hell, those aren't big ! (Read 138299 times)
Steve Deckert
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If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 2389
Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #90 - 01/12/03 at 19:31:57
 
Brian,

Not a chance.  They'll just have to stay where they are.  

Dave,

The Barn idea is great.

Homey,

The the bass will certainly couple much better close to the wall.  That is the way we expect most people to use them.  Even against the wall, they are still 28 inches out into the room.  The impedance will be 4 ohms in most cases.  However, in a smaller room I would like to try two 4 ohm woofers in series and let the natural 15 degree phase shift that occurs create some magic - it usually does.

Terry,

The overall size is around 65 inches high, 38 inches wide and 28 inches deep.  In case of tornado, I would take shelter in the speaker since It's so heavy and can easily support the weight of a house.

Cheers, Steve
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mikes
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #91 - 01/13/03 at 16:24:24
 
Steve,

Glad to hear you will make the modified Imperial + horn lens plans & white paper available to us.  I've been using an inexpensive Alpha12 Eminence PA driver (low ZMAX) and cheap HF horn with my Zen for many months now and continue to be impressed with the BANG I'm getting for the BUCK, even though I haven't given the LF driver a chance to show its stuff in a huge cab like the Imperials.  How interesting that we're talking about such 'old' technology and how good it can sound...

Peace,
MikeS
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« Last Edit: 01/13/03 at 16:43:59 by mikes »  
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Corpsdriver
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #92 - 01/13/03 at 21:26:18
 
I just sent the url for this thread to my audio company partner, (he also helped my build my HWK) He says he can hardly wait to sink his saw teeth into this project! He wants to make the bentwood lenses too, but i have a 3' pair of vintage JBL 2" lenses already... i wont argue with him. Looks like i may need to buy a new AB Precedent amp... some Altec, or JBL compression drivers... (dreaming)

Jamie
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Jim
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #93 - 01/13/03 at 22:51:35
 
This project is really interesting, I just can't convince myself that 2 speakers that would be OVER 6 FEET wide would work very well in my listening room with it's 10 foot wall!

I think it would really convince my friends (not to mention wife) that I'd finally lost it.

Happy Listening,
Jim
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hurdy_gurdyman
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #94 - 01/13/03 at 22:55:25
 
>I think it would really convince my friends (not to mention wife) that I'd finally lost it.<

My wife and family and friends are already convinced that I've lost it!
Dave Grin

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Corpsdriver
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #95 - 01/13/03 at 23:03:24
 
I never had it to lose in the first place... i did rent some of "it" for a few days... then i left it somewhere... i hope someone gave it a good home.

Jamie
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steve_f
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #96 - 01/14/03 at 02:53:20
 
Hi Everyone,
Like Steve and a few of the other members,  I'm simply amazed at how much different a driver can sound in different cabinets.  I can't wait to try building the Decware Imperials!  
There really is magic in a good horn design. Steve, it sure sounds like you found some!
Take care,
Steve F
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Terry
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #97 - 01/14/03 at 07:59:22
 
Steve,

Have you ever thought of trying the JBL 2226G's in this cabinet.  I would think they would work well, sound good, and be a good match for a Zen SE84CS with their 4 ohm impedence.  I recently heard these and have been very impressed with them for a high efficiency driver.  They have a fairly smooth frequency response as well, with nice bass extention.

TG Grin
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MagMan
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #98 - 01/15/03 at 00:53:50
 
Funny you should mention the JBL 2226's I just got a pair but now that Steve is going to hook us up with the plans (THANK YOU STEVE!) I am going to have to get another pair. The old Fraizer wood horns I got off E-Bay showed up. I installed the drivers (sounds like the same ones Steve had) and used the EV st350 tweeter and some old EV Sentry 4 crossovers I had using my Ohm Walsh 4's just for low end. (I know, don't say it I just wanted to hear the horns) THe 4's need to go now so it looks like they are E-bay bound. I already have a spot for the Imperial's
Mike
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Steve Deckert
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If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 2389
Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #99 - 01/15/03 at 03:50:07
 
UPDATE

9:17 pm.  I'm beat.  The bed is calling... back hurts, thinking about skipping the nighty ritual of sitting out in the shop listening to the jazz station on the radio (with the Imperials).  9:41 pm. Oh what the hell...  9:51 p.m. I sit there in my chair staring at the bent wood horns thinking I really should at least varnish the other one so they match.  10:00 p.m. Standing on my tip toes varnishing the insides of the horns - while listening to them of course.  

(Every now and then the audio Gods decide you need to know something and give you the strong spontaneous urge to do something they know will cause a chain of events that allows them to teach you something.  You always know if the discovery was your own, or if it was an intentional lesson by the sudden spontaneity of it.)

The most amazing thing happened while I was varnishing.  As I applied the varnish, while it was still shiny and laying on top of the surface, the sound would come out of the varnish!  Just a 6 inch square area in the throat raised the presence by 3dB. It was unmistakable, yet I couldn't believe it.  Before you know it, I was varnishing like a mad man trying to get the whole inside of the horn wet before it would tack up because as soon as it tacked up the effect went away.

My overwhelming gut feeling is that there is more to it than just the difference between the shiny or rough surface.  The sound was magic.  These horns are working so well it's really amazing me.  The dispersion is simply incredible.  Absolutely NO beam even at a distance of 1 foot away.  In any case having a glass smooth finish inside THIS horn raises the output by several dB and widens the dispersion angle by a very noticeable amount.  Having a wet finish, like liquid, creates the magic as the surface tension between the air and liquid apparently isolate the wave front from the resonance of the horn walls - improving coherency.  Oh God, I'm starting to sound like Terry.  :-/
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Terry
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #100 - 01/15/03 at 04:25:10
 
I'm flattered  :o



P.S. I am in desparate need of photo's Steve, otherwise I am affraid my enthusiasm will diminish Embarrassed   Can you post one of how you mounted the driver to the horn?
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« Last Edit: 01/15/03 at 04:27:57 by Terry »  
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thedude
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #101 - 01/15/03 at 06:11:13
 
hmmmm, im thinking horn tweeks now, wax, crisco, jelly... Grin
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John_M
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #102 - 01/15/03 at 12:25:12
 

[quote author=thedude  link=1040842968&amp/90#101 date=1042611073]
hmmmm, im thinking horn tweeks now, wax, crisco, jelly... Grin
[/quote]

Would that be surfboard wax for that "California sound", or "Olde English Furniture Polish" fo that laid-back British sound?  :o Shocked Shocked

The mis-matched driver discussion reminds me of an experience in my early stages of Audiophilia Nervosa:  I was in one the local "Stereo Super Stores" (that was actually it's NAME!) listening to the then top of the line Polk speakers.  They were gigantic pseudo-planar speakers 4'x6' covered with 4" drivers.  I was A-B testing them with Polk's second from the top speakers (slightly smaller but same basic configuration) and neither one sounded particularly astounding.  Funny thing was, when I had both sets playing the tonal quality took a huge jump up.  It seemed the uneven interaction of the different drivers produced something closer to "real" than all the matched sets.

Perhaps the brain knows that sounds from natural sources are essentially unevenly spread across the device producing them.  Most of the sound from a guitar comes from the sound box, but there are still discernable sounds coming from the strings on the neck.  The sound waves of a piano are spread across a finite distance within the instrument, those waves resonate from the body of the piano with different nodes and they also bounce off of, and resonate with, the lid.

The human ear (and the brain that process the information) is very spatially sensitve.  I suggest that this sensitivity and the processing that goes along with it are what's responsible for our perception of a "real" instrument.  Perhaps the mis-matched drivers in the Imperials (I bet you were wondering when I'd get back to that!  ;) ) helps simulate the physical size of an instrument BECAUSE of the different sonic qualities of those drivers.
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John_M
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #103 - 01/15/03 at 12:47:00
 
Continued...

This argument could also lend support to the debate on microphone placement: close or far.  Close micing generally exludes the parts of the instrument that are farthest away from the mic.  A mic that is farther away will capture most or all of the sounds coming from the instrument, but without the emphasis of one source over any other.  Hopefully the artist is getting what they want from what's being recorded or broadcast.

In the end it doesn't suprise me that mismatched drivers lend a more natural sound in this design.  Maybe Steve should PLAN on having 2 different drivers in the final design, if that's what sounds best!

Got a question about those wood lenses.  When you notched the back of the plywood to allow for the bend did you cut through all but the last layer of ply?  It sure looks like it from the pictues!  Is plywood usually consistent enough or did you have to make a couple goes at it to get it just right?
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hurdy_gurdyman
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #104 - 01/15/03 at 12:53:38
 
>This argument could also lend support to the debate on microphone placement: close or far.  Close micing generally exludes the parts of the instrument that are farthest away from the mic.  A mic that is farther away will capture most or all of the sounds coming from the instrument, but without the emphasis of one source over any other.<

I am a big fan of Distant micing. Acoustic instruments just sound more natural when the mic is a ways off.
Dave Smiley
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