Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Decware Audio Forums
07/31/14 at 16:57:19


Pages: 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 ... 16
Send Topic Print
Hell, those aren't big ! (Read 136795 times)
steve_f
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #60 - 01/03/03 at 21:13:29
 
Hi Everyone,
I,m just wondering if all of us are hearing some kind of attractive phasing anomoly from using two mismatched woofers in the Imperial speaker.  Steve, have you tried a pair of matched woofers yet?  Honestly, I wonder what both Imperials sound like, even with mismatched woofers.
Take care,
Steve F
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
hurdy_gurdyman
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #61 - 01/03/03 at 22:32:54
 
>Even so, the crazy imaging is still there.  Where did that come from?<

If the recording was done with a pair of mics for stereo, there will be some kind of image even from a mono source. The room itself will contribute different sounds from different directions, thus a stereo image of some sort will develop. At least I think so.
Dave Grin
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Audioillusion
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #62 - 01/03/03 at 22:53:41
 
[quote author=Peter  link=1040842968&amp/45#59 date=1041626354]
I take that dispute back. [/quote]

I was really interested in your challenge. The perceived difference in the MP3 and WAV is blatant in my opinion, glad we see eye to eye. I've done MP3 A/B's before, I nailed the MP3s every time.

I was listening through a stereo receiver that was connected to my sound card so amplification wasn't much of a problem. Especially since my phones are really efficient. I know the DAC in my sound card isn't the best but the recordings were still very reveling.

[quote author=Peter  link=1040842968&amp/45#59 date=1041626354]
--Addendum:  Even so, the crazy imaging is still there.  Where did that come from?
[/quote]

My guess is since Steve's recording was so pure, meaning it wasn't damage by a recording "engineer", and since Steve's horns are able to accurate reproduce the signal, the way our brain perceives the music is true to the actual music which is why it sounds life like. Even through we weren't listening to a stereo pair of speakers, the horns were still able to transmit the necessary acoustic information to our brain. Remember the brain is what perceives a sounds location by analyzing the properties of the sound. Not sure exactly how our brains do this, but I?m sure the ?Illusion? of a 3D played-back sound has more to do with preservation of the acoustic information than the number and location of the speakers.

It?s my belief that the best possible recording is one with the least amount of distance between the microphone and our ears. In other words: the simpler the recording the better. For example: every time an EQ, mixers, compressors, ect. is used during a mixing session, information that our brain needs to recreate the true sound of the music is lost. These tools make the original acoustic information untrue to the music. It?s like copying a video tape, with each copy of a copy the video quality degrades. A lot of mixes are guilty of something similar. In Steve?s recording, everything was preserved why it sounds life like.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Peter
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #63 - 01/03/03 at 23:02:50
 

[quote author=Audioillusion  link=1040842968&amp/60#62 date=1041634421]
I've done MP3 A/B's before, I nailed the MP3s every time.
[/quote]
Hehe.. I think with the right tools, (i.e. LAME on the r3mix setting or some of the 'better' alternatives) I could persuade you otherwise.  I have done A/B on those before with far better kit and been gobsmacked.

But not right now.. it's late Wink

As for the image, I'd *really* like to know if it was there 'live'.   I seriously doubt it.  Remember Steve's recording was far short of 'audiophile' quality, so that might have had something to do with it.

My secret theory is that all imaging is artificial Wink --either intentional or incidental --  how sought after it may be.  Especially 3D imaging.


Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Albert
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #64 - 01/04/03 at 05:48:22
 
Peter..dude..you are getting way too deep for me at this late hour, I mean I think I understood what what you said...and that scares me Grin
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Brian
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #65 - 01/04/03 at 06:52:13
 
Audio Illusion wrote:  "It's my belief that the best possible recording is one with the least amount of distance between the microphone and our ears. In other words: the simpler the recording the better."

There is a good commentary on this at http://www.xs4all.nl/~rabruil/dongabor1.html  which is a site about Don Gabor's Remington record company in the early fifties.  Apparently Don did not have the money for elaborate equipment so he used simple stuff and accidentaly made great records.  Lots of fascinating biographies of classical pianists and violinists at that site too.  

Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Corpsdriver
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #66 - 01/04/03 at 16:04:14
 
Audioillusion wrote, Quote:
Steve's recording was so pure, meaning it wasn't damage by a recording "engineer"


You know, i may as well let the cat out of the bag. All recording engineers today are contracted by a government agency, to insert "damage" and subliminal messages. The end result is "mass birth control" by destroying the male libido, not to mention invoking paranoid delusions, and an inability to take amature recordings at face value. Roll Eyes

I Honestly dont mean to offend anyone, I just wanted to show contempt fot the "William F Buckley Jr." tangent that seems to surface at times in this forum...

Jamie

Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Corpsdriver
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #67 - 01/04/03 at 17:56:28
 
Boy am i gonna catch hell for that one... Shocked
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 2370
Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #68 - 01/04/03 at 18:24:15
 
If you do catch hell for it, I hope it's in a new thread!  

I have received 4 matched woofers for the cabinets.  Still waiting for a replacement compression driver. The new drivers are real nice, but I doubt they will fly.  We installed a pair in the other cabinet last night and everyone liked the miss-matched drivers better.  The new drivers do not have the midrange and I believe that is most of it, however it raises many questions.  

I'll try to do a complete update over the weekend with a few more pics.

Steve
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 01/04/03 at 18:25:22 by Steve Deckert »  
WWW   IP Logged
hurdy_gurdyman
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #69 - 01/04/03 at 21:04:40
 
There is an interesting driver for sale in the MCM Electronics catalog for $73.00 each. Part #55-1880. Specs are:
Power handling-400W (I don't think a Zen would be a threat)
SPL- 98dB/W/M 2.8V
Fs- 28Hz
Vas- 16.36 cu.ft.
Qts- .231
Qes- .274
Qms- 1.457
Xmax- 4.4mm/.17"
DCR- 6.6ohm
Magnet weight- 100 oz
Voice coil- 4"

Not sure how high up the frequency range will go. It seems to be hard to get large drivers that will go high these days.
  This driver sounds interesting for the money, and I think it would work in a horn. But then, what do I know  ::) Grin
Dave Grin
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 01/04/03 at 21:20:15 by hurdy_gurdyman »  
  IP Logged
Brian
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #70 - 01/04/03 at 21:07:53
 
Sorry about bringing Don Gabor into this thread.  I will move him over to the music lover's forum.   Lips Sealed
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 01/04/03 at 21:18:11 by Brian »  
  IP Logged
stone_of_tone
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #71 - 01/07/03 at 18:42:20
 
Steve, I want to hear the latest.....I know...you said you will try to post over the rest of the weekend....I will be patient Roll Eyes

Stone of Tone 8)
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
pmwoodward
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #72 - 01/08/03 at 17:06:35
 
Steve, too funny!! that A-bomb gave me a good laugh!
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 2370
Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #73 - 01/11/03 at 23:29:17
 
Okay, I think an update is in order!

First a few observations about the miss-matched drivers.  One came from a Plush Bass Cabinet and featured a 2 inch voice coil.  It has incredible tone, and basically no mids.  It was the woofer on the right in the pictures.  The left woofer was an inexpensive Eminence PA speaker.  It not only has a midrange but has a 10 dB rise in the midrange a 2K.  This is why the speaker had such good presence and tone.  

When you walked up to the speaker and listened to each driver at close range, the one on the right sounded wonderful and the one on the left sounded like crap - enough to make you instantly take 3 steps back.

The new woofers I ordered came in.  They are probably not ideal for this project, but we're thinking about selling them for sub woofer projects so I wanted to try them.  We mounted a pair of them in the other cabinet and as I mentioned before, everyone leaned towards the miss-matched pair in the other cabinet.

The new woofers also roll off quickly, and sound very similar to the Plush woofer with the good tone.  After playing around for a couple nights I decided we would need more midrange like we had with the miss-matched pair, but without the nasty peaks.

I had a pair of Peavey woofers that when compared to the miss-matched pair fell right in the middle.  The reason the midrange was important to get from the woofers rather than getting it from the bent wood horn is in a word - "hit".   The snare drum crack that comes off so tight you jump, and the kick drum that pops your chest is a function of the higher frequency response of the 15 inch woofers.  The Peavey woofers had the "hit" we needed but no low bass.  The new woofers have the low bass but lack the snap.  It is difficult to find both in a single 15 inch driver.  The new drivers has response down to 30 Hz.  The Peavey drivers are down to around 70 Hz.

We installed one of each in each cabinet.  We put the Peavey driver towards the inside on each side. This is working well with no problems of any kind that we can see or hear.

I installed 1 inch of fiberfill on the back of the interior chambers behind each woofer on the left cabinet.  The right cabinet was left with no damping to see what is better.  Interestingly, most people choose the cabinet with no stuffing because of the added presence it has.  For outdoor use I would recommend it that way.  I like the smoother response of the stuffed cabinet and recommend that for indoor use.  I was pleased to find that the shape of the chambers behind each woofer were not creating any standing waves that hurt the sound.  

Steve  :)
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Steve Deckert
Administrator
*****


If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 2370
Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #74 - 01/11/03 at 23:49:50
 
So as you might have guessed we are now listening to a matched pair of cabinets (each with miss-matched woofers).  I still do not have my compression drivers because the original ones I ordered only went up to 9K.  I am now waiting for another pair of something else that will handle between 1.5 ~ 20KHz.  In the meanwhile I have a pair of low grade compression drivers installed using a simple capacitor for a crossover.  The woofers are running in parallel with no crossovers.

The overall frequency balance at this stage is surprisingly flat.  I was also pleased to find out that when you toe them in and stand in the sweet spot you actually get one hell of a sound stage!  Very believable imaging too.  I am very pleased with the bent wood horns and learned something very important as a result of building them.  I will make plans and a white paper available soon where I will try to explain what I discovered about horn flare design.

So for the past week we've just been playing with them.  In this state, they work for any purpose.  PA use, no problem.  Home audiophile use, no problem.

To date, these are the tightest most extended speakers I have heard at any price and any size, including live concerts.  Turning these speakers up loud is an experience you'll never forget.  There is no ear fatigue, and it sounds convincingly live on any type of music.  The effortlessness and shear power is unreal.  I can only compare them to my Acoustats which I listened to last night.  The Imperials sound lower and hit harder and sound tighter in the bass than the Acoustats which should be impossible.  On everything else, they demonstrate a presence that is not found on the Acoustats.  The richness and harmonic textures of piano, string bass, etc. sound more real on the Imperials.  This is because the cabinet is like a piano and you sense it's presence when it plays because it is really there.  On these speakers it is really there too, the mass and size is the same.  Interesting stuff to say the least.

I have never been a person to listen to music loud because my distortion alarm always goes off about half way there.  On these speakers it has not gone off yet, and I'm sure we have listened in excess of 120 dB from time to time.  My ears have yet to ring from listening to these, yet at lower volumes our own band has created the dreaded ringing you hear when you go to bed later that night.  That means ringing is not tied to SPL, but rather a side effect of distortions.

I have just about completed the blueprint for the Imperial.  I plan to give it away for free to everyone following this thread.  Later they will be available on the site for sale.
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 ... 16
Send Topic Print