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Hell, those aren't big ! (Read 139805 times)
hurdy_gurdyman
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #45 - 12/30/02 at 23:34:33
 
>Anyway  shows to go ya, you can't really change universal laws,  what men did 60 years ago to make music sound good still will today, we just made a few changes but we really didn't make much more progress.  We just figured out a whole bunch more about what won't work.<

To judge by some of the speakers being made today, some people still haven't figured out what don't work.
Dave Grin

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Peter
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #46 - 12/31/02 at 05:49:25
 
If you haven't got studio speakers or good headphones with a suitable soundcard or audio interface on your computer, I highly recommend burning a CD.  It's difficult to appreciate the sheer depth of the recording.  -- and these day's a blank CD sells for less than 50c.

The cymbals sound like they're in the room, it's true, but I'm 99% sure they're part of the original recording.

The voice at the end's a dead giveaway, all the S's and T's are clear as a bell.
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« Last Edit: 12/31/02 at 05:50:02 by lindseyp »  
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Terry
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #47 - 12/31/02 at 14:32:52
 

You think I will get all that from the mp3, as the original file will not work with any of the programing I have here.  mp3's are Ok, but they are somewhat compressed and don't give you a good sense of imaging.   The original wave file if it worked proabably would do a little bit better, don't you think?

TG Grin
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Peter
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #48 - 12/31/02 at 15:05:06
 
To be honest, I don't think so.  (addendum: I mean I think you will get all that, I don't think you'll lose the imaging Cheesy) The source of the recording is one speaker cabinet, so other than the background shakers etc, most of the 'image' is artificially created.  Whether it was caused by the recording or by the mismatched drivers who's to say.  What I will say, though, is that the mp3 is recorded at a very high variable bitrate.  i.e. when not needed, the bitrate is low for better compression, when needed, the bitrate goes up to 240bps, which is easily high enough for 'cd quality' recordings and way higher than most anything you'll find on the internet.

On my studio sound module and fairly good sony headphones I couldn't tell the difference and was satisfied with the quality and the imaging (inside my head), or I wouldn't have posted it.

After all, what the original file contained was a noisy recording done (I'm assuming) on PA kit, of FM radio played through mismatched 'cheapo' 15" drivers with no tweeter.   Blank between 16-18Khz and full of recording noise between 18-20Khz.  I even left the recording noise in!  Believe me, mp3 or original, you don't lose the jaw-dropping disbelief in what you're hearing.
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« Last Edit: 12/31/02 at 15:06:53 by lindseyp »  
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MagMan
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #49 - 12/31/02 at 15:41:11
 
I love my Walsh 4's but thave had them for many years and have the bug to change to some kind of horn. (4's are for sale) they are in my basement rec room which is quite large. I have about 12 hours of searching the net in the past few days (I know get a life) for some rear loaded horn plans EXACTLY like these (single 15 would be better). All I found was more PA stuff.  I just scored a pair of old Frasier wood horn lenses on e-bay. And I just ordered some Selenium drivers. I have a very old set of EV drivers as well along with the matching EV tweeters, ST35's I think they were. I was almost settled in on some Altec 816's till I found this thread, Steve, post the plans, please. I just ordered the crossover parts.
Mike
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Cayenne
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #50 - 12/31/02 at 15:52:03
 


[quote author=DrN  link=1040842968&amp/30#43 date=1041289211]
On Steve's file Win Media Player opens but it come up "data is invalid".

Peter, the MP3 works. Thanks!

Den
[/quote]

Hmm...perhaps this is a DRM issue? Particularly if it was recorded with Windoze...??

I think the last version that came out, had it as an 'option' that you can turn off....

I'm guessing soon, that this will no longer be an option....

Anyway, you might check on this?

C
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mikes
Ex Member



Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #51 - 12/31/02 at 18:25:37
 
Regarding Steve's adaptation of the Jensen Imperial, perhaps some of you would find these links interesting:

Jensen Imperial horn drawings:
http://home.earthlink.net/~lotusblossom/_wsn/page3.html

some Imperial pics:
http://community-1.webtv.net/KerrB/VINTAGETUBEAMPHORN/page6.html

Peace,
MikeS
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Steve Deckert
Administrator
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If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 2407
Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #52 - 12/31/02 at 23:51:37
 
Peter,

You are right about piano.  And Terry,  I did not touch the drum set.

As for the links, this is the "cut-corner" home version of the Imperial.  It was designed for a single 15 as was the original model Paul and I built.  Paul and I have built a pair of these also, still have them.  They do not compare to the full size imperial with one 15.  They really do not compare to the new models.  They do not go much lower than 37 Hz, and they sound sloppy compared to these new ones.

I got the compression drivers yesterday and one was dead out of the box.  I installed the good one on the cabinet with the two 15's and was pleased to find I need do nothing else.  I simply hung a 15 uf SOLEN cap on it and wired it up.  

The Solen compression driver is claimed to be 107dB with 1 watt.  I kinda expected to have to pad that down a bit, but that is not going to be the case.  In fact it could be 1 or 2 dB louder.  Adding it completely cleaned up the 15 inch woofers, now that the highs have a place to go.   After hooking it up, I realized in just a few minutes that all my suffering with the bent wood lenses was well worth it.  WELL worth it.  Amazing.

Today, a few of us found ourselves sitting around in the shop listening to public radio again.  I don't think anyone moved  for about 2 hours.  It really is amazing how just one cabinet can fill the room and have "stereo imaging" be the farthest thing from your mind.  It sounds so real, so live.  The incredible power it has even at low levels let you feel every note.  Besides piano, I have found horns to sound incredible, and acoustic bass on this speaker simply wastes Pauls 200 watt CLASS A all tube bass rig - also using 2 15 inch drivers.  Imagine that for a  minute.  Imagine an acoustic bass growling with textured low notes that are tight and powerful enough to make a good sounding electric bass sound stupid.  Well, this is what is happening.  

Got to go, we have a big get together tonight.

Steve
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Brian
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #53 - 01/02/03 at 03:01:32
 
Peter said: "The source of the recording is one speaker cabinet, so other than the background shakers etc, most of the 'image' is artificially created. Whether it was caused by the recording or by the mismatched drivers who's to say."

This makes me think the speakers may sound best with mismatched drivers when listening to only one, but when listening to both of them well matched drivers may be neccesary to create a sound stage.  
Not an important point since Mr. Deckert will do an empirical test rendering my speculation moot, but I love to speculate.  
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« Last Edit: 01/02/03 at 03:38:31 by Brian »  
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Audioillusion
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #54 - 01/03/03 at 09:09:28
 
Mr. Deckert,

You certainly tell a good story. I'm skeptical of the sound I'm hearing out of the horn speaker you've built. It's sounds simply amazing. I know you had a stereo microphone set-up due to the background noises I'm hearing (some howling?, shakers, talking). That's not what amazes me. It's how 3D the jazz music I'm hearing sounds.

I listened through a pair Sennheiser HD590's directly out of my sound card so I'm certain I'm receiving a relative realistic presentation of these particular recording. Direct to DSD recording sound eerily realistic while using these headphones so I'm confident I'm hearing the full potential of this recording due to the potential I know these cans contain.

I'm very skeptical of these horns sounding as "life like" as the (short) wave file I've heard.  The full length wave file has been official labeled as a lost cause. I've tried the MP3, it does sound like an MP3 compared to the wave file, in other words it sounds like a four letter word. However I think the MP3 and the wave file are of the same source so I'll say these recording came from the same source. I also will say that the shakers prove the recording is legit.

What I don't understand, why does the jazz sound stereo and life like through only a mono 15" bass guitar drivers. What makes a horn sound so life like?
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« Last Edit: 01/03/03 at 09:12:07 by Audioillusion »  
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Jimmy
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #55 - 01/03/03 at 11:53:22
 
I'm glad I poked my head in to take a peek at what you guys have been up to.  I liked the shakers myself.  Real purist recordings are so nice sometimes.  None of the over compressed flatness of the "finished" products offered as music.

As for the sound from the horn...  I think its pretty cool that you could capture a reproduced source with such finess.  I do however question the accuracy of all of us listening to a reproduction of an event through our own colored speakers and equipment.  I know you mentioned that we would only be exposed to the concept of the event and that we wouldn't have the true experience reproduced for us because of this inconvienence, but I do wonder if what we're all hearing is the same thing?
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Terry
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #56 - 01/03/03 at 16:10:07
 

I don't know about you Jimmy, but I hear a lot, even though this is not what I would listen to everyday for pleasure.  I have done enough recording that I know the dynamic range protrayed in this recording is incredible.  I wonder how loud it it is, sounds pretty loud to me, with the voices in the back ground being faint.  But then I have this vision of the Mic being about ten feet from the speakers too.

Dynamics in recordings are what make it sound natural, otherwise the back ground noise comes up to a level that it is appearent.  Dynamics are a very important part of sound reproduction, and the weakest link are our speakers most of the time.  When I was in the industry our studio monitors were 104dbs 1w/1m, they put speakers in the studio like that for a reason, and it wasn't because they didn't have enough power.

TG Grin
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Jimmy
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #57 - 01/03/03 at 18:32:36
 
Oh, and I forgot to mention...  Steve, Those things kick ass!  :D  Very impressive horn's you've built.

Granted I've been out of the scene around here for a while, but we've always seemed to be pretty happy with what we're using.  So I'm just curious as to how much of the actual horn we're getting across on this little file.  I'm very pleased with the sound from the file, but it does remind me of radio quality in dryness. (which is why I was enjoying the moving shakers so much)  Volume is another issue as you correctly stated the background voices are very faint.  I'll admit I only listened to the file once and was playing it straight through my sound card into my preamp.  So right there is a source of variation from the source I'm using vs what most of you probably did. (I don't have a burner on this comp)  I can say that the soundcard i'm running is rather neutral for the most part. (I've tested it as an RTA with software and a decent mic)

I like the premise of the experiment.  I thought it was neat hearing a very dynamic set of doomed speakers perform like champs, but I just wonder how much of the experience is lost in transmission.
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Peter
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #58 - 01/03/03 at 19:54:26
 

[quote author=Audioillusion  link=1040842968&amp/45#54 date=1041584968] I've tried the MP3, it does sound like an MP3 compared to the wave file, in other words it sounds like a four letter word. [/quote]

I strongly dispute this.

Firstly, what soundcard are you using?  There are not many soundcards whose amps are good enough for your headphones.  I was using a Roland SD-90 24/96 studio audio interface, and I couldn't tell the difference.  Admittedly I wasn't using 'audiophile' headphones, since I didn't have them with me,  but even so...

If it really does sound that bad, then surely you can tell the difference easily between clips if I post a/b of the original file, and the mp3 converted back into WAV.  Fancy a challenge?   Grin I wasn't using LAME, just cooledit (another studio-quality piece of software btw), I'm sure you could not tell the difference if I used LAME, and I'm pretty sure the guys at syntrillium would be upset if you could even with cooledit.  

Or maybe it's just your mp3 software which you need to change, but that too I find odd, most software is capable of accurate playback.  What software are you using?

Damn I need my 'real' gear.  I'm fed up of making compromises.

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Peter
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #59 - 01/03/03 at 20:39:14
 
I take that dispute back. I was going to put a 'mp3 challenge' up as a new thread to see if you really could tell the difference so easily, despite that I previously couldn't.  So I prepared a clip, and then when I A/Bd my specially prepared clip the difference was indeed obvious -- even with my laptop soundcard.  I should have used LAME to encode it.  Sorry about that folks.  It must be the syntrillium plugin.


--Addendum:  Even so, the crazy imaging is still there.  Where did that come from?
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« Last Edit: 01/03/03 at 20:41:20 by lindseyp »  
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