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Hell, those aren't big ! (Read 24368 times)
Steve Deckert
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Hell, those aren't big !
12/25/02 at 18:02:48
 
It was a cold winter night just before Christmas, a hot fire in the wood stove... lots of power tools, wood and beer with too much snow for anyone to bother you.  Good tunes in the background and no phone or computer.  DECWARE's self-prescription for a badly needed vacation - results pending.

Paul and I have been building a new pair of speakers for ourselves.  You may remember from taking the visual tour of Decware, the Bendi speaker(as it has come to be known)?  

Just thought it would be fun to share some pics of our recreational activities as they happen.  

I'll be adding more pics as things progress over the next few days..

Cheers  ;D



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hurdy_gurdyman
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #1 - 12/25/02 at 18:15:00
 
COOL!  8)I can picture Terry making a pair of these for his EV's. Grin I'd love to have big efficient horns in my living room, but I don't really want to lose my wife at this time, so it'll have to wait.
Look forward to more pics.
Dave Smiley
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Terry
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #2 - 12/26/02 at 01:08:09
 
Hey flip those babies over with the speakers on top and they would be perfect!  I wish I lived closer to someone that would help me build speakers, I have to make jigs to hold the other end most of the time.  Takes me as much time making things to take the place of another person than to make the speakers.  I can now cut a piece of MDF by myself with great precission.

Keep us posted Steve, I like this kind of project.  If only I had the room for the Jensen Imperial Horns, that project sure looks a like the Imperial horn, but a little smaller.

TG Grin
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« Last Edit: 12/26/02 at 08:45:38 by Terry »  
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chrisb
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #3 - 12/26/02 at 17:09:48
 
Steve: aside from the obvious weight factor, do you find any sonice advantages to plywood over MDF.  

If that's Meranti ply, watch out for slivers - they'll dig deep and fester for a week if you let them

Is that power bar UL approved?

Can't wait to see the grill covers (inspired by the famous Ed Shilling leopard skin "twins"?)

Nice work on the updates to the listening room page, and thanks for the peak at the business end of the Dechorn.  Have you already named the driver(s) utilized in the main section?



cheers, and happy New Year's  all
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #4 - 12/26/02 at 18:11:43
 
Chris,

The only obvious advantage is strength.  MDF has more mass.  I've made these imperials from MDF before.  The weight is lucid.  These are being built from Luan (sp) a form of Redwood.  It can lay outside in the rain for the entire summer and will not warp.  I have gotten so many splinters from this stuff I just quit taking them out.

Terry,

These are the 1956 Imperials, however we have redesigned them to be twice as strong and twice as easy to build.  If you've ever seen the original 1956 plans, they are a joke.

We will be running these with the woofers on top.  I had planned to run coax drivers but I ran into a few things, 1) not very many to choose from, 2) pricey, 3) most have limited low freq. response.   I have decided to go with conventional pro woofers and load a horn with a good 2 inch compression driver.   We already know that this requires a serious horn lense for the compression driver to keep up.  With two 15's in each cabinet it will be even more difficult.

I needed a challenging project while Paul was gone so I decided to build the horn lenses myself.  I've done this before, but they were only 20 inches wide.  This time I'm going to make them bigger Smiley




The trick to building these is self-inflicted temporary ignorance of the compound radius angles involved.  Once you reach that state you may begin. (beer helps) Then once you've spent the entire day cutting parts the realization that there are severely complex angles to cut is balanced by the time you've invested and you really have no choice but to press on.



We've got both speakers together now, just working on the cleating and trim.  I'll post some more pics tonight or Friday.

Steve
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« Last Edit: 12/28/02 at 03:02:31 by Steve Deckert »  
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Terry
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #5 - 12/26/02 at 23:32:34
 

[quote author=Steve Deckert  link=1040842968&amp/0#4 date=1040926303]

These are the 1956 Imperials, however we have redesigned them to be twice as strong and twice as easy to build.  If you've ever seen the original 1956 plans, they are a joke.

[/quote]

Steve,

Why are those plans a joke?  I think I have those plans.  Good idea on the plywood, I know redwood is very light for its size and strength.  If the wood you are using is similar it should be great.  To me the lighter more porous the wood the lower its resonance, and if it resonates below the usuable frequency of the driver all the better in my opinion.  Let us know what drivers you have chosen, and what efficiency you expect.  How about those horns Albert has Altec 811's 117 1w/1m?  They might keep up with two 15" bass drivers.

TG Grin


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Steve Deckert
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #6 - 12/27/02 at 17:00:58
 
[quote author=Terry  link=1040842968&amp/0#5 date=1040945554]


Steve,

To me the lighter more porous the wood the lower its resonance, and if it resonates below the usuable frequency of the driver all the better in my opinion.  TG Grin



[/quote]

Terry,  actually the lighter the wood (less mass) the higher its resonance will tend to be.  You could not get a speaker cabinet to resonate below the usable frequency of a woofer unless it was concrete.  Most objectionable panel resonance in speaker cabinets can be found between 140 and 600 cycles.  As we add bracing or increase the panel stiffness (by adding another panel for example) we push the resonance up past this area so that it no longer effects the mid bass and lower mid range of the woofer. Grin

The plans are a joke because they are dimensioned like a puzzle with conflicting measurements and angles that don't jive.  Also it is obvious by looking at the original design that is was intended to be as light as possible.  The joinery is weak, as is the cleating technique.
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« Last Edit: 12/28/02 at 02:57:32 by Steve Deckert »  
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Terry
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #7 - 12/27/02 at 17:20:40
 


That is interesting, that contradicts an experience I had here recently.  I use MDF in all my protype cabinets, because of ease of workability, but prefer plywood as it has a more natural sound to me.  Could it be I like the resonance of plywood?

Sooooooooo, what drivers do you have in mind?  I have been looking at several lately for bass horns and am extremely curious.

TG  ;D
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #8 - 12/28/02 at 02:45:20
 



Terry-  Yes, that's exactly what it is.  Plywood resonance can add objectionable OR pleasing colorations to the sound.  In the case of these Imperials, the bottom and top are double thick, as are the sides of the enclosure area (source of energy).  The horn is intentionally left as a single thickness and supported by large stiffening cleats.  This allows the large rear panel to resonate in a complimentary way.  Not unlike a musical instrument, careful design and control of panel resonance can make or break the signature of a loudspeaker.  It's an esoteric and ambitious way to build speakers making it obvious why so many just go for inertness.  Here is a photo of the rear panel and stiffening members from looking down the horn.

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« Last Edit: 12/28/02 at 02:52:16 by Steve Deckert »  
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #9 - 12/28/02 at 02:51:03
 


Here is another picture of the construction.  I think we're at around 5 sheets of plywood for each cabinet.  Basically around $300.  This will grow to about $500 by the time everything is said and done.  

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Corpsdriver
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #10 - 12/28/02 at 03:07:16
 
I can hear the "Tim the Toolman" grunts from here...
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #11 - 12/28/02 at 03:10:29
 


Here is where we're at so far.  The cabinets are largely completed and ready for sanding, trim and finishing.  As you can see we couldn't stand it so we dug some old 15 inch woofers out of the bone yard and hooked them up.  I'll have a story about what happened when we turned it on.  Give me some time to write it - for now lets just say it was memorable!
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #12 - 12/28/02 at 03:23:21
 


Just kidding !  Okay back to working on the story!

Cheers,

Steve Grin
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« Last Edit: 12/28/02 at 03:35:25 by Steve Deckert »  
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thedude
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #13 - 12/28/02 at 03:47:36
 
hehehe, weeeeeee
remember to wear ear protection when blasting those monsters, those high frequency horns look awsome, what is the low cuttoff, and i like the way you made them, just cut, bend and glue right? Smiley -Matt
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« Last Edit: 12/28/02 at 03:49:57 by thedude »  
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #14 - 12/28/02 at 04:28:00
 
The story about a first test listen to one cabinet in mono.

As I mentioned, we couldn't stand the anticipation and even though drivers have been ordered we just wanted to hear something come out this new horn.  We dug around and each of us found a woofer.  One was an old bass musical instrument speaker and the other was more along the lines of a PA driver.

The idea was that we would play the radio through one cabinet while we continued to work on them.  We thought we'd kind of get an idea how these cabinet alterations and improvements effect the bass.  To drive them I simply unhooked a floor monitor that was in the room and replaced it with an Imperial.  The amplifier behind it is a 400 watt Ross - the equivalent of a decent audiophile solid state amp.  

The source was a $70.00 Pioneer tuner with no antenna fed into the mixer behind my drum kit.  I listen to this stupid tuner through the monitors all the time when I work out here and have never once stopped and said, "gee that sounds really good!".  

As soon as we turned it on, Paul and I both stopped for about a minute and stared at it.  The sound I heard was so tight that I made the comment I thought maybe the two woofers were wired out of phase.  We listened to it for a few minutes frankly not sure what to think.  

Continued...

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Steve Deckert
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #15 - 12/28/02 at 04:56:18
 
Continued...



The bass was very dry and super tight.  We quickly decided to change the send from the monitors to an aux channel where the output was not high-passed and more listenable.  At the same time both channels were mixed to mono so we wouldn't be hearing just one channel anymore.  From this point forward, the speaker was pleasing to listen to.  That was motivation to put on a CD and loose the crappy radio and so it was done.  

We listened to a couple of songs on CD at a high playback level looking for that familiar "Imperial Power" that wrecks the room also known as bass notes from hell and well you get the idea.  Remember, all prior models (about 6 pair) had all been done with a single 15 inch driver and built like the original plan.

I think we were both floored at what we were hearing.  First of all you forget the effortless power these speakers have - at least we did.  The most prominent thing that was different from prior models was the tightness.  The only speaker I've ever heard with bass that tight is my Acoustats.  They can play at 115 dB with less than 1% total system distortion and are the definition of tight.  This single Imperial sounded exactly like it but on steroids.  

When you attend a live rock concert with a sound crew that knows what's going on and is having a good night, you find yourself amazed by the power and the tightness of the kick drum.  Stereo speakers at home simply do not do that.  If you can picture this kind of sound in your mind, what we head come out of the Imperial was over twice as tight and extremely flat with bottomless extension that can and did shake the concrete floor.

Paul noticed that nothing in the room was getting wrecked.  By that he means vibrating.  Usually there are 20 things in the room that have to be quieted down because they buzz or rattle when you play the Imperial.  We just always thought this was normal but this time the sound pressure level was way louder than what it usually takes to start wrecking the room and not one peep from anything.  

Good room you say?  Not from this perspective, no.  There should have been 20 or more things that needed moved or weighted down.  We learned that the velocity and transient response (tightness) was so superior that it didn't give anything in the room time to be wrecked.  More like shooting a bullet through a door vs. someone pounding on it.  For both of us, this was some genuine enlightenment that basically means the nasty resonances of objects in your room are excited by distortion not pressure.

continued....
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« Last Edit: 12/28/02 at 05:00:46 by Steve Deckert »  
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #16 - 12/28/02 at 05:31:19
 
We ran through several more songs with different type of music and before you know it we weren't finishing the cabinets like we planned to.  

I think we both found it interesting that two grossly mismatched woofers could hit so precisely as one, not to mention sound even listenable in the midrange and high frequencies.  We simply ran them full range with a flat signal.  Now, unlike the original design that took months of playing musical woofers until we found ones that worked, this new cabinet design is obviously not going to give a shit what you put in it!

The horn lenses you see in prior pictures setting on top are not hooked up.  We don't have the drivers for them yet.

I expected to turn this speaker cabinet on, crank it a few times and reduce it to a background listening level so I wouldn't become tired of crappy mismatched speakers.  Instead we spent the rest of the evening from I guess around 7pm to 2am listening to it with bigger than life grins on our faces!

What clinched it was around 8pm when Paul flipped the crappy little tuner to our local public radio station that played jazz and blues.  It was the first time I heard the tuner sound good.  But it goes way beyond that...  Good is okay for about an hour.  Anything longer than that usually has to be great.  We had it cranked, but it was so clean that it didn't seem the 120 db it probably was.

Song after song, the cabinet just sitting there in the middle of floor and no good reason why it should be sounding this good.  Hour by hour and beer by beer we simply couldn't turn the damn thing off.  I started to have disturbing thoughts about the fact that I'm listening to "inferior" electronics when compared to our Zen Triodes, yet somehow this was sounding incredible.

Towards the end of the night, still listening to the radio in mono cranked to the wood on great jazz and enjoying it as much as stereo I had a good idea.  I decided no one would believe this if we told them, so I was going to get some proof.  All I had to do was go over to the computer by the mixer and start the recorder.  I used the two boundary mics also known as room mics (CROWN PZM) fed into the board in stereo.  

The songs kept coming and I recorded 4 of them.  Then we took a break and I just had to hear what the recording sounded like so I hit play.  Now, here we were sitting in the same room listening to a recording of the Imperial - ON the Imperial.  It was playing a recording of itself.  That was interesting.  There was a noticeable difference in the sound of the recording.  It was less detailed and less tight and slightly smoother sounding.  But considering we recorded the room and the speaker was 90 degrees off axis to the mics this effect is normal.

I have saved the recordings because I think you'll want to hear this.  Even though a conventional stereo will never be able to fully recreate it, you will get a taste of it, perhaps 50% which is enough to hear what is so special about it.

I'll post a link to a 30 second clip of song 2.  It is about 2.5 meg in size.  The whole song is 43 meg, and I'm trying to figure out what is the best way to present it.
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #17 - 12/28/02 at 05:39:14
 



Here is the sound clip.  It is a recording of us listening to Jazz on the radio in mono using one of the new Imperial cabinets exactly as it is shown in the picture.  

In short this is a recording of the new Imperial speaker in the room as pictured.  It is a 44.1kHz 16 bit stereo wav file.  

This is a stereo recording of one Imperial playing in mono.

Be sure to burn this to CD and play it on your real stereo.  Don't waist your time trying to listen to it on your computer.

http://www.decware.com/imperialsample.wav

Durring the recording I had Joe (who was also there- a friend of ours) take some shakers and walk by the mics so everyone could see this was not a faked recording.  In the complete recording you can hear all of us from time to time in the background.  

Steve


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« Last Edit: 12/28/02 at 05:53:03 by Steve Deckert »  
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Terry
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #18 - 12/28/02 at 07:43:35
 
I can't believe it, I gotta hear the full song.  I have never heard 15" woofers produce such treble before.  What are those crappy woofers you dug up, you might be disappointed in the ones your ordered.  Which you haven't told us what drivers they are yet!!  One thing I have learned is not to under estimate vintage drivers, and pro drivers, they can do more than we imagine.

Cool suff keep it comming!  I think I might just have to make a pair of these, when will the plans be available?  But it have to wait until I get done with another project.

TG Grin

P.S. Looks like someone else has a Shopsmith.
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« Last Edit: 12/28/02 at 07:46:58 by Terry »  
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Peter
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #19 - 12/28/02 at 11:44:39
 
Shocked
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Albert
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #20 - 12/28/02 at 15:21:39
 
Ok now wouldn't it be wild if when you put in the "correct" speakers that you lost all the magic! I know you guys have thought about that Grin
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hurdy_gurdyman
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #21 - 12/28/02 at 15:37:47
 
Maybe the secret to the "magic" is the mis-matched speakers. Each could be correcting the flaws of the other.
Dave Grin
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Corpsdriver
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #22 - 12/28/02 at 16:01:33
 
No way! That wonderful High End was your buddy with the shakers, right?  :o
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #23 - 12/28/02 at 16:08:12
 
increadible... even the top of the ride and the splash were there... Once again, i am on my knees, facing east, bowing to the Deckert. you need to hang a sign on your shop door that says "Welcome to Mecca"
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #24 - 12/28/02 at 16:48:39
 
Yes, Paul and I had this exact conversation.  I personally expect to like the miss-matched pair better.  We plan to install the fresh woofers in the second cabinet and compare once they come in.  To keep costs down I'm going to be using some no-name woofers from China.  They might be a flop, if there are you will all know about it --- as the Imperial turns.

Like I told Paul, don't laugh, we may have to find another pair of miss-matched woofers that match these!

I agree, you all need to hear the entire song.  I will post the 43 meg file on the site soon.  I will also remove it shortly afterwards.  Perhaps a few days.  Those without high speed Internet could possibly do an all night download while they sleep.

I thought many of you would find the highs interesting... we did!  Hell, why don't you all drive or fly over here and we'll roast a pig on the wood stove and have another go at it!

I'll be honest here for a minute... what is really sick is the fact that a single cabinet playing in mono with a poor source, crappie wire, and so so solid state amp can be as rewarding to listen to as the high end gear in stereo.  And in many ways it goes well beyond it.  At least that is what went through my mind at least 40 times on Thursday night Smiley

Of course the main course still awaits.  A finished pair set up properly being run by Zen amps.
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earwax
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #25 - 12/28/02 at 17:47:42
 
Stevie!...Sweetie! I can believe you and Paul put another set of Imperial's together. And I can believe your finding something magical about them...but, did I read this right..you let Joe within striking distance of them! You know Japan has Godzilla, and well, from past experience, Godzilla has met his match. I have no doubt Japan would reward us handsomely if we were to keep Joe safely contained here in the U.S.

I shall have to stop by sometime and give them a listen to.
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Terry
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #26 - 12/28/02 at 17:53:00
 


I posted this a while back, it is all about tone.  The only reason for trying to get a stereo set up correctly put together is to get the right tone.  Phase coherency is just one aspect of that.  What you are saying is not surprising to me in the least, we have been so misguided by manufactures.  In the realm of speakers, one thing has proven true, BIGGER IS BETTER.  I have got to make a pair of these speaker for my garage.  No matter how nice I make them look, I don't know if my wife will let them in the house, but I will try.  Perhaps when she is seventy and doesn't care any more I could hire a moving company to move them in the house then, but I gotta have a pair now.

I think those china cheapies might just work fine, but you have got to try a few different speakers in them to help us understand what will work and what will not.  I find pro-drivers and vintage speaker drivers to be more forgiving of enclosers.  I mean in the scale of 12  cubic feet, what is one foot here or there.

I guess Steve doesn't have to worry about WAF when his business is audio, you just go to work and enjoy.

TG Grin
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #27 - 12/28/02 at 21:40:50
 

One more thing, I am real curious how 15" drivers sound when set up in proper stereo imaging, as they tend to beam start at round 600Hz.  So you would probably have a narrow sweet spot, and I wonder if they would sound as good on axis as the would slight off axis.  Just some thoughts I am wondering if a person can overcome.

TG Grin
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #28 - 12/29/02 at 02:42:43
 
Wel that just proves, there's no substitute for a big a-s-s pair of speakers. I listened to the WAV file, and it sounded pretty good, but that's because I've got my WebTV box hooked into my home theater/surround rig.

Why do I bring this up? Well, my processor has five LEDs that glow with varying brightness to indicate the relative strength of the signal going to each channel. And even the TWO channel recording Steve made does have some embedded ambient/surround information.

When the recording started, it was like being transported into the room that the big ol' Imperial was playing in. I even played the thing a few times through, just to confirm it wasn't a mistaken impression. It was like I was in the room with the speaker. If any of you decide to burn a CD, try listening to it in a surround rig, preferably in a matrix mode with NO room simulations. You may be suprised.
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #29 - 12/29/02 at 03:19:56
 
Hi Steve,
I am IMPRESSED... wow.  With junk drivers,even.  So when will the plans for the Decware Imperial become available?
Steve F
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #30 - 12/29/02 at 05:00:46
 
C'mon now Steve let's have some plans and I will develope a 3D solid model of them on the computer; it would be a nice evening project. Oh if it was just as easy to build cabinets in real life as it is on the computer!
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #31 - 12/29/02 at 12:15:03
 
Not real suprised:

I've always contended that speakers make the biggest difference in an audio system.

The top octave is highly over-rated (as is the bottom octave, but you have to have it on the recording and have the right room to listen in).  This is one reason why single driver speakers can work.

IMO, there's still a lot of life left in the single channel concept (cheaper, smaller, more coherent, many recordings don't support a decent stereo image anyway).

BTW, Wayne Parham from Pi speakers suggests filling the voids behind the panels with expanding foam.

Don't have a CD burner so I'm missing out on the recording.

I'm eyeing the end of my living room right now, looks like there's enough room to fit one on either side of the window.  You know, I've been wanting to reside the house anyway, maybe I could build them into a bump out and not lose floor space (the room fits the golden room dimension ratio as is).

Steve, please provide some specifications.  Could these be driven by a Select?
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hurdy_gurdyman
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #32 - 12/29/02 at 13:46:33
 
>Steve, please provide some specifications.  Could these be driven by a Select?<

Those things look efficient enough to be driven by anything, even a headphone amp. Shocked 8)
Dave Grin
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #33 - 12/29/02 at 23:42:37
 

Steve,

What about drivers for the horns, what do you plan on using for the top end?  Looks like those lenses should be good down to about 800Hz at least.

TG Grin
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #34 - 12/30/02 at 02:13:34
 
JLM,

In the original design filling the voids with foam would have really helped things.  This new version has no voids except in one spot.  It is cleated in five places.  Time will tell.

I will publish the new plans once I feel we are done with these cabinets and happy with the results.  Sounds like a pair built into your walls would be interesting!

Can these be driven by a Select?  I can think of no better speaker.  

Terry,

I've ordered some 2 inch compression drivers by Selenium for the horn lenses.  The drivers have an fs of 400 Hz.  The lenses should easily reach 500 Hz if I wanted to go that low. I plan to work on them sometime this week once the drivers arrive.

Steve

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EZ_Angus
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #35 - 12/30/02 at 03:05:45
 

hi steve: awesome speaks! I have a pair of altec 416-8b's that I want to mate with my 802-8d drivers on 511-b horns. do you think your cab design could be adapted for a single 15 inch woofer? I'd like to build something fantastic for these great old parts, maybe even a wooden horn too?

envious angus
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Steve Deckert
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If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #36 - 12/30/02 at 04:05:40
 
Here is the complete song from which the clip was taken.  It is 46 meg.

http://www.decware.com/imperial1.wav

This should be interesting!

Cheers,

Steve
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Terry
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #37 - 12/30/02 at 08:00:03
 
Darn, I downloaded it and I can't play it, with anything I have I have four programs that say they can play wav files, and none of them recognise it.  :'(

TG Grin

P.S. Steve, can you point my to where on your web site i can see a photo of the Imperial horns, with Bendi in it.  I just wanted to compare this one a bit.
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« Last Edit: 12/30/02 at 08:58:32 by Terry »  
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Peter
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #38 - 12/30/02 at 10:03:17
 
Steve, I dont' mind since I'm on Broadband anyway, but mightn't it be more convenient (and less costly in terms of bandwidth) to zip the file or compress with some lossless audio packer?
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Corpsdriver
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #39 - 12/30/02 at 14:32:01
 
I burned a copy of the recording, and took it to my HT room, and played it in several configurations beginning with stereo w/o sub on my KLH model 17s, then my model 4s. then my a/d/s l-1590s and so on. THOROUGHLY IMPRESSED! I think i am going to put my 3 main pairs up for sale and build a pair of Imperials! And no, Elvis, (my HWK-15) aint leavin the building! I will deliver anywhere in the Pacific NW!
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Albert
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #40 - 12/30/02 at 17:03:58
 
I can't play it with Windows Media Player or Real Player..oh well...
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Corey
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #41 - 12/30/02 at 18:23:36
 
Terry,

Bendi can be seen laying in the Imperial during the start of the visual H. Fidelity tour as well as in an article about hi-fi and home theater.

Corey
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Peter
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #42 - 12/30/02 at 21:42:04
 
I think the file's corrupt, media player et al don't like it, I was able to put it into cooledit though.  Perhaps you need to burn it to CD or open it with a program that doesn't require it all in memory at once?

I had a play with it, it does sound amazing, there's basically nothing in the registers abouve 16,000 Hz except a band of noise between 18KHz and 20KHz which probably comes from the recording media.  I did a high-pass filter at 14KHz and it still makes very little difference to the sweet ride cymbal.  This is what we'd expect from a pair of 15" drivers, I suppose, but it just goes to show that timbre and voluminous bass can make such a huge difference.   I was surprised to note that there seems to be a stereo image, Bass is where it should be... along the bottom.  The sax is somewhere right of centre and the ride cymbal seems to be off to the left.  Very odd.

The spectral analysis shows the track to be absolutely saturated with below 100hz.  Who needs subwoofers!?  That's rib-crushing bass Cheesy I suspect the real thing sounded more tight than the recording, and it especially suits that music, but I was also surprised to hear the quality of the announcer's voice, too.

I think this beast is going to sound amazing with the top end drivers in.

For those of you who couldn't hear the file, I took the liberty of putting a high-quality mp3 up here.  I don't want to damage anyone's self-calibrating hearing  :P but it's super-high quality variable bitrate and to me sounds easily as good as the original.  It's the bandwith I'm more worried about Grin

PS - I'd love to hear those beauties belt out some piano when they've got their top bits in.  Even without, I bet they sound about as close to the real thing as you can get.

erratum: high-pass should read low-pass.

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« Last Edit: 01/01/03 at 03:54:18 by lindseyp »  
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DrN
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #43 - 12/30/02 at 23:00:11
 
On Steve's file Win Media Player opens but it come up "data is invalid".

Peter, the MP3 works. Thanks!

Den
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« Last Edit: 12/30/02 at 23:07:20 by DrN »  
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Terry
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #44 - 12/30/02 at 23:28:15
 


That is what my computer keeps saying that the file is corupt.  Thanks for the mp3 file Peter, I was able to play that, although I don't know if I want to waist a CD for it though I haven't decided.

This is what I think, the shakers, high hat, cymbles, and tamborine, were all being played by Steve and company.  The rest was comming from the Imperials, even at that the imperials sounded great.  You can not beat high efficiency drivers.  I of course on my computer did not get the sense of huge bass, but the rest of the tonal quality was great.  I suspect these speakers will be much happier with vintage high efficient woofers such as Electro-Voice (that would be my first choice), and Altec drivers.  I also would think many modern pro and high efficient drivers would sound great as well, but just not quiet as tonally balance as the vintage drivers, much like the ones Steve has in their now.  In fact the on driver looks like an EV driver.  Steve can you tell us the mismatched pair you have in their now.  I also think having a mismatched pair would have some advantages, as you could get a little better tonal balance.   Both are feeding the same horn, but are separated by their own enclosers aren't they?

Anyway  shows to go ya, you can't really change universal laws,  what men did 60 years ago to make music sound good still will today, we just made a few changes but we really didn't make much more progress.  We just figured out a whole bunch more about what won't work.

TG Grin
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hurdy_gurdyman
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #45 - 12/30/02 at 23:34:33
 
>Anyway  shows to go ya, you can't really change universal laws,  what men did 60 years ago to make music sound good still will today, we just made a few changes but we really didn't make much more progress.  We just figured out a whole bunch more about what won't work.<

To judge by some of the speakers being made today, some people still haven't figured out what don't work.
Dave Grin

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Peter
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #46 - 12/31/02 at 05:49:25
 
If you haven't got studio speakers or good headphones with a suitable soundcard or audio interface on your computer, I highly recommend burning a CD.  It's difficult to appreciate the sheer depth of the recording.  -- and these day's a blank CD sells for less than 50c.

The cymbals sound like they're in the room, it's true, but I'm 99% sure they're part of the original recording.

The voice at the end's a dead giveaway, all the S's and T's are clear as a bell.
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« Last Edit: 12/31/02 at 05:50:02 by lindseyp »  
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Terry
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #47 - 12/31/02 at 14:32:52
 

You think I will get all that from the mp3, as the original file will not work with any of the programing I have here.  mp3's are Ok, but they are somewhat compressed and don't give you a good sense of imaging.   The original wave file if it worked proabably would do a little bit better, don't you think?

TG Grin
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Peter
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #48 - 12/31/02 at 15:05:06
 
To be honest, I don't think so.  (addendum: I mean I think you will get all that, I don't think you'll lose the imaging Cheesy) The source of the recording is one speaker cabinet, so other than the background shakers etc, most of the 'image' is artificially created.  Whether it was caused by the recording or by the mismatched drivers who's to say.  What I will say, though, is that the mp3 is recorded at a very high variable bitrate.  i.e. when not needed, the bitrate is low for better compression, when needed, the bitrate goes up to 240bps, which is easily high enough for 'cd quality' recordings and way higher than most anything you'll find on the internet.

On my studio sound module and fairly good sony headphones I couldn't tell the difference and was satisfied with the quality and the imaging (inside my head), or I wouldn't have posted it.

After all, what the original file contained was a noisy recording done (I'm assuming) on PA kit, of FM radio played through mismatched 'cheapo' 15" drivers with no tweeter.   Blank between 16-18Khz and full of recording noise between 18-20Khz.  I even left the recording noise in!  Believe me, mp3 or original, you don't lose the jaw-dropping disbelief in what you're hearing.
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« Last Edit: 12/31/02 at 15:06:53 by lindseyp »  
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MagMan
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #49 - 12/31/02 at 15:41:11
 
I love my Walsh 4's but thave had them for many years and have the bug to change to some kind of horn. (4's are for sale) they are in my basement rec room which is quite large. I have about 12 hours of searching the net in the past few days (I know get a life) for some rear loaded horn plans EXACTLY like these (single 15 would be better). All I found was more PA stuff.  I just scored a pair of old Frasier wood horn lenses on e-bay. And I just ordered some Selenium drivers. I have a very old set of EV drivers as well along with the matching EV tweeters, ST35's I think they were. I was almost settled in on some Altec 816's till I found this thread, Steve, post the plans, please. I just ordered the crossover parts.
Mike
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