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Hell, those aren't big ! (Read 19234 times)
Steve Deckert
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If the 1st watt
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Posts: 2973
Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #150 - 01/25/03 at 15:58:16
 

[quote author=bmar  link=1040842968&amp/135#147 date=1043472687]
Nice looking project. You can also buy an adaptor that has female threads for a screw on driver to a bolt on pattern horn flare. This adaptor could then be mounted directly to your horn throat, eliminating any straight sided throat transition.
If you make a throat you might try a 12-16 degree angle for that short section. The conical throat section will help to eliminate peaking too.

Bill
[/quote]

I'm not seeing it.  Most adapters I've seen would be no different then the plastic throat I tried.

Steve
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Corpsdriver
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #151 - 01/25/03 at 17:55:44
 
here is the link to pics of my lenses, i hope they will work on the imperials...
http://corpsdriver.home.attbi.com/id19.htm

Give me line of credit, I still learning to making web page.

Jamie
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bmar
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #152 - 01/25/03 at 19:00:12
 
Steve,

Martin Sound has these. catalogue number 1846, model 9999062
http://www.martinsoundpro.com/PDF_files/adapters.pdf
11.00 each. This is what I was thinking you could use.

Bill
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #153 - 01/25/03 at 19:07:16
 
Yep, model 9999062 would be fine, it's just a collar.
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chrisb
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Re: bi-polar pipes
Reply #154 - 01/25/03 at 21:37:12
 
Terry - the veneer is flat sliced cherry, stained with a medium walnut pigment stain (2 coats, washed out with thinners to even out the color and let more grain through - this entirely to personal taste)  3 spray coats of lacquer - hand sanded between.  I generally choose darker stains as it hides the kraft paper backing on the veneer, and I just like the colors.

The chamfers on the edges are simply routed with a 45` bit, and touched up with hand file on the inside corners.

I use the DIY iron-on method for veneering smaller projects like this; progressing from larger panels to smaller. Carefully laying out and numbering the veneer pieces first, you should need very little overlap on the edges, which can easily be trimmed with 2" chisel and sanded flush.  Edges are done the same way, it just takes more time.  Folding the veneer around the 45` corners was an experiment on these pipes that didn't work out quite as I'd hoped.  

Use yellow glue only and buy a cheap clothes iron.  This method takes a little practice, but is much more forgiving than any contact adhesive, and the glue won't be lifted by any finishing products.
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ns
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #155 - 01/27/03 at 12:26:54
 
Steve,
Would you ever quit doing this!!!! Now I have to think of where I can put these things (once I build them) Do you have any idea how expensive houses are in Ireland?
I bought a pair of the original radial drivers years ago when Steve was still playing with them because I read his white paper after he built the prototypes. Now I am going to have to get these plans and build these monsters. I guess the only consolation is that there is no hope of doing it anytime too soon. Try as I might, they won't fit into our two bedroomed apartment. Please put me on the list for the plans though as I will build them if it kills me.
Neil.
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MikeS
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #156 - 01/27/03 at 16:24:32
 
Bill Martinelli uses an interesting machined "Billet Aluminum throat piece with stainless steel hardware" in his wood horns

http://www.woodhorn.com/woodhorns.htm

I'm wondering if Bill encountered some of the same "evil" sonic throat signatures Steve witnessed before deciding to use these...

MikeS
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #157 - 01/28/03 at 00:59:52
 
Okay folks, as promised here are the plans in a .pdf format.  I will be offering them on the site for sale in both an online format (this) and a full blueprint.

The file is located here:

http://www.decware.com/forumtemp/imperial.pdf

the username is: forum
the password is: imperial

This file will remain here for a VERY limited time and then it will be deleted.

Have fun!

Steve  ;D
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nubz69
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #158 - 01/28/03 at 02:56:32
 
I've been checking on this thread every once in a while and it is very intresting.  One thing that got me thinking was this -

"I mean let's face it, if your stereo actually sounded real your mind would short circuit and you would be struck with fear - not unlike seeing a real ghost."

at first this made me wonder if this would trigger a fight or flight responce in people.  Then it got me to thinking exactly how much does the mood/state of mind we are in have on the way we perceive sound.  Do you think that that magic we get every so often(for me at least) could be a result of our mood and not exactly the system?
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Brian
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #159 - 01/28/03 at 03:19:53
 
Thank you Steve,  I hope I won't take forever to make one of these - or maybe a pair.  
Brian Albin   Smiley
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Terry
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #160 - 01/28/03 at 07:06:06
 

I know beggers can't be choosers, but I was really hoping to see something on the wood horns in these plans.  Is that forthcomming?  Thanks for the cabinet plans for the two 15" rear loaded horn cabinet, it is way too cool.  Too bad I had my heart set on the midrange wood horns as well, that was the real candy for me.  Perhaps the details of the throat coupling aren't worked out yet.

The not totally bummed out,
TG Sad
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hurdy_gurdyman
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #161 - 01/28/03 at 12:50:34
 
My ancient computer can't seem to open the link. I've tried everything I can think of.
Dave Cry
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Randy
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #162 - 01/28/03 at 13:40:00
 
Howdy Dave,

Do you have the Adobe Acrobat Reader loaded on your "ancient computer" ?  You will need it to open this file.

If you don't have it, you can download the reader from the Adobe Website.

Regards,

Randy
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Albert
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #163 - 01/28/03 at 13:46:02
 
Steve, what CAD program do you use? could you provide me with the CAD drawing? I would like to create a 3D model of it if it's ok with you and the CAD info might help.

Thanks
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Randy
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #164 - 01/28/03 at 14:12:30
 

[quote author=nubz69  link=1040842968&amp/150#158 date=1043722592]
I've been checking on this thread every once in a while and it is very intresting.  One thing that got me thinking was this -

"I mean let's face it, if your stereo actually sounded real your mind would short circuit and you would be struck with fear - not unlike seeing a real ghost."

at first this made me wonder if this would trigger a fight or flight responce in people.  Then it got me to thinking exactly how much does the mood/state of mind we are in have on the way we perceive sound.  Do you think that that magic we get every so often(for me at least) could be a result of our mood and not exactly the system?
[/quote]

Howdy nubz,

Great observation ..... this has been discussed a few times in the past and there is always a nice variety of opinions ..... Grin

I'm pretty sure that my system sounds great all of the time ..... but there are certain times that the sound is so real that I have a difficult time believing what I am hearing ..... a soundstage so palpable and the tone and timbre so convincing that I am totally caught up in the performance ..... 8)

Since I am using a PS Audio Power Plant to power my equipment, I don't think that power quality and fluctuations are a big issue for me ..... so it must be something else.

There are also times that I just cannot get "involved" in the music, no matter how hard I try ..... so I have to believe that at least part of it is "in my head" ..... Undecided

Thank goodness those times are few and far between ..... Grin

Regards,

Randy  
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hurdy_gurdyman
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #165 - 01/28/03 at 16:13:38
 
Randy,
I have Acrobat Reader 3.01. I even shut off my firewall and virus scan. No luck. All I get is a blank white page even after a ten minute wait. There is no address in the address bar.
Dave Undecided
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MikeS
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #166 - 01/28/03 at 17:14:14
 
Dave (hurdy_gurdyman)

It looks as though Steve used Acrobat Distiller 5.0 to create it, so I believe you'll need Acrobat Reader 5.0 to view it.  

Peace,
MikeS
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nubz69
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #167 - 01/28/03 at 18:53:12
 
I have the same experiences with music.  I don't own any true audiophile audio systems but there are times when I am listening to the right music at the right time and I am in the right spot between my speakers that the effect of the music on me is just erie.  I currently am using a pair of old mid-field monitors in the near-field for production and just plain listening and I have had a few times where I actualy get goosebumps because of the music and how it sounds to be all aound me.  Sometimes I wonder exactly what is more important(at least to me) when it comes to listening to music.  Is it the soundstage being realistic and not just plain flat?  Is it a truly flat frequency response from 20-20k?  Or is it something else.  I hope to one day have enough money to try owning my own tube amps and possible the RL-2's and mate them with a nice sub in hopes that I can at least get the whole range from 20-20k and have a good soundstage.  I have a feeling that is what my ears are looking for.
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Randy
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #168 - 01/28/03 at 21:38:00
 
Dave and Mike,

Acrobat Reader 4.0 will open it ..... but, you might as well download the newest one while you're at it ..... Grin

Something else you might try is downloading the actual .pdf file to your hard drive and opening it from there.

Right click on the link that Steve provided and "Save target as ....."

Sometimes, .pdf files do not work very well across the internet ..... Tongue

Regards,

Randy
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« Last Edit: 01/28/03 at 21:42:28 by Randy in Caintuck »  
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hurdy_gurdyman
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #169 - 01/28/03 at 23:55:09
 
Downloaded the newest Acrobat Reader and this time it worked. Guess I need to update my programs more often.
Dave Roll Eyes
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MagMan
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #170 - 01/29/03 at 01:15:17
 
Steve,
Thanks very much. You made my day
Mike
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steve_f
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #171 - 01/29/03 at 02:06:49
 
Hi Steve,
Thank you for sharing your "Zen Imperial" plans with us.
Take care,
Steve F
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Corpsdriver
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #172 - 01/29/03 at 15:55:14
 
My copy of the plans are already at my buddy's shop, and he is figuring materials and costs for me. By the way, that means all the speakers on my web site EXCEPT the L-1590's are up for sale to finance this project... My HWK-15 doesn't go either.. Thank You Steve, i once again, bow to the east, towards the "Musical Mecca" in IL.

Jamie
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Brian
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #173 - 01/31/03 at 04:03:27
 
Steve, can you tell us anything about optional brace "E"?  
Under what circumstances would I want to install them or not?
Is it 3/4" thickness like most of the other braces, or 1-1/2" like brace "D"?
And finally, do I put them against the side walls or out in the middle like brace "D" so as to form a kind of grill teeth in the horn mouth?  
Thank You
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bmar
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #174 - 02/01/03 at 04:07:01
 
Steve, Thanks for sharing your redrawn imperial. You just have to love the horns and some of the things they can do. I've been working on some duel 10" cabinets lately. Maybe the rear load style of the imperial in a downsized manner might sound good too.

Mike,  We use the aluminum throats for a few reasons. I did not want the driver mounting directly to the wood of the horn. The begining section of the horn, or throat, can impart a lot of changes to the overall horn. This way the throat can be changed around and the mouth of the horn stays the same. you could have one horn with a few different throats and have all kinds of different sounds and be better suited for different drivers of choice.  So to answer your question, The aluminum throats are the means we use to couple two components and offer a variable too. Straight side throats had a lot more peaking issues along with more throat distortion.  The conical shape sounds, and measures better.

Bill
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homeyhomes
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #175 - 02/02/03 at 21:40:57
 
ANYBODY in Los Angeles area
that is planning on building a pair of the IMPERIALS?

I would like to team up with someone if possible,
(Build two pairs at the same time).

I personally know 3 Cabinet makers that have nice
shops that will let Me use the shop & equipment.
one of the shops has two spray booths if You want
to Laquer the Cabs. Also cheap prices on the Lumber.
email Me if interested.

homey

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rgeorge
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #176 - 02/02/03 at 22:34:50
 
Oh, Homey....
If only I had a place for them after they were built... Roll Eyes
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homeyhomes
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #177 - 02/03/03 at 01:25:54
 
RGeorge,

I hear You, They're monsters.

I will be using them in My Shop (plenty of room)1300 sq ft.

and in about two years I will be moving them into
My new Listening room that I am going to build (plenty
of room Grin)   approx. 300sq ft.

It's not that I don't love My 4" horns, It's just with the
imperials, You can play any type of music at loud levels.
homey
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rgeorge
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #178 - 02/03/03 at 01:30:42
 
[quote author=homeyhomes  link=1040842968&amp/165#177 date=1044235554]It's not that I don't love My 4" horns, It's just with the imperials, You can play any type of music at loud levels. [/quote]

...with only 1.8 watts!!  And, better yet, when you are playing, you are ALWAYS in the lowest reaches of the first watt - the death zone for most SS gear, but that is where the Zen really breathes.

Someday... Lips Sealed
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homeyhomes
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #179 - 02/03/03 at 01:51:12
 
You said it. The first watt is pure gold, with these
super efficient badboys You will have major headroom
even with the little Zen.

I wish there was  a print on the high frequency
Horn lens.  But then it probably isn't that critical
as to the actual dimensions of the lens. just looking
at the photo of it can give a pretty good indication
as to the size.
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Brian
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #180 - 02/03/03 at 03:29:56
 
Homeyhomes, there is information for laying out the tractrix curve for a treble horn at these sites.  
http://home.earthlink.net/~lotusblossom/_wsn/page2.html

http://www.melhuish.org/audio/horn.htm

http://www.geocities.com/tractrix12/

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« Last Edit: 02/03/03 at 03:38:53 by Brian »  
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homeyhomes
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #181 - 02/04/03 at 08:17:37
 
20 - 30 hours of paper mache on those tractrix
horns sounds brutal.  I would think a wood one
like Steves would be less time consuming.
thanks for posting those.

homey
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Brian
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #182 - 02/04/03 at 19:37:33
 
I think You're right.  I think the wood might be more musical too.  Of course I don't know which curve Steve is using but the ones at those sites ought to work well for a wood horn, either round or rectangular.
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DrN
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #183 - 02/09/03 at 20:00:52
 
Check this out >http://home.att.net/~lkalin/index.html
Can you say HUGE?

Den
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Corpsdriver
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #184 - 02/10/03 at 05:01:46
 
My Imperial project is in high gear (since recieving our tax return) I have a pair of JBL e140-b's and a pair of black widow 15's, (keeping with the mis-matched driver concept) and i have a bid in on some 2" JBL compression drivers on Ebay that i will fit up to these:

http://corpsdriver.home.attbi.com/id19.htm

I also ordered a new pair of Dayton series II subwoofers to go into my HWK-15. specs are:

Power handling: 300 watts RMS/425 watts max * Voice coil diameter: 2-1/2" * Voice coil inductance: 4.4 mH * Nominal impedance: 8 ohms * DC resistance: 6.3 ohms * Frequency response: 19-1,000 Hz * Magnet weight: 90 oz. * Fs: 19.0 Hz * SPL: 89.5 dB 1W/1m * Vas: 9.64 cu. ft. * Qms: 10.46 * Qes: .35 * Qts: .34 * Xmax: 8.0mm * Net weight: 19 lbs.

they oughtta do! lowest Fs i could find and the closest to a VAS of 10 cu.ft i could find also.
I figure, if they flutter in the HWK, i will load them into the Imperials... mix and match!

Jamie
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Zaltais
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #185 - 02/24/03 at 13:30:51
 
Help me please
I cant download the horn plans, am I too late?
AHHHHHHHH
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Corpsdriver
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #186 - 02/25/03 at 15:27:57
 
Gentlemen, I am sorry you guys missed out on the plans... Cry
so let me be the first to say:

PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPLLLLLLLLLLLLL! Tongue Grin

Jamie

I am sure Steve will have them up somwhere else soon.
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morpheous85
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #187 - 03/02/03 at 20:45:27
 
I just found this topic last night. I listened to the file today! (I broke the rule that you shouldn't listen to it on your computer.) None the less, WOW!!! I believe you created a monster! How in the world are those two 15"s creating so much high freq? The recording sounded really good! Anyway, is it possible to get the plans?
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1electric1
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #188 - 03/06/03 at 21:00:24
 
Why birch ply?

The first pair of folded horns I built were out of some 7ply stock with a mahogony veneer already applied. What the inner wood was I don't know. I got the stock on discount because the bottom edge had been stained from water damage, but was still 3/4". I know klipsch uses void free birch 3/4, but why birch or am I being dense and almost all plywood is birch?

I simply sanded mine, stained once and coated with polyurethane something or other. It was a hard surface and looked great.

If anyone has any pictures of how their imperials are coming along please share. I am buying my stock this weekend and wanted to ask about the birch.

Also, for the inner braces and such, can I not substitute soem other kind of stock? Is it the thermal expansion factor that dictates the use of the same stock on all pieces?

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Brian
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #189 - 03/06/03 at 23:24:51
 
Birch is not used in common plywood.  Douglas Fir is used in most of the plywood made in America.

I would think there is more sonic difference between MDF and any plywood than there is between one kind of plywood and another.  I think most of the reason we only read about Birch for speaker building is because it finishes to a nicer appearance than Fir.
That last paragraph is specualtion of course.  
I don't know if Birch plywood is all Birch, or only the decorative surface ply with a less expensive core.  
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1electric1
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #190 - 03/07/03 at 21:23:51
 
Alright I have to seek some advice.

I think building a top end for myself is going to be risky.

I would rather buy some top end horns and drivers, that I can sell and recoup my losses if they don't work out. Of course I would like them to work out the first time.

I want to avoid a seperate tweeter, and crossover issues I can handle myself.

I have my eye on some horn/compression driver auctions and would like to ask those of you in  the know a little about what I should look for.

I would LOVE to have a wood horn on top, but metal or plastic is fine with me, so long as performance is a great match for the bass horn.

Please tell me what you think.

btw, if anyone cares for my la scala plans send me a note. I have a couple versions.

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Brian
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #191 - 03/07/03 at 23:52:26
 
Hi 1electric1, You may want to repost this question on the speaker builder's forum to get a wider audience.
Best of luck.  
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Edac
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #192 - 03/20/03 at 07:09:06
 
I am a bit slow on the uptake here, but I thought I could offer an idea as to why Steve achieved 'stereo imaging' with his recording of the Imperial standalone...  It is simply the relationship between the two mics, the speaker and the room, a very cleaver illusion (not created by intent)!!

Basically, the only ways Steve could NOT have achieved a measure of stereo imaging in the recording, would to have been to have the mics directly on top of eachother, or to have had the speaker in a perfectly "dead" room positioned exactly between the two mics. (I can't comment on the lateral soundstage effects of the mismatched driver - I am sure that adds to the phenomenon I will describe, but is secondary to the effect only).

What you are hearing is two mics, removed from eachother, collecting information not only from the speaker, but from the effect it has on the room too.. To illustrate, the left mike might have been close to Steve's drum set, sucking up timy vibrations and resonances from it.  The right mic might have been next to a sponge chair -deadening the sound collection area for this mic.. Bingo!  there you have it! Two mics, doing what they orta, and picking up two different tracks of sound!  Stereo imaging follows.  This phenomenon can reproduce itself when recording a solo voice or instrument in the middle of two mics in a less-than-perfect recording environment - you might hear an "echo" for example off to the left and behind of the artist.. All that from a mono source?  Yes.  its easy really.  Hifi seems to me to be about  "mental gymnastics."   As Steve demonstrates, when you step out of the square, magical things reveal themselves to be logical, reasonable and ultimately understandable.   Wink
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Corpsdriver
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #193 - 03/20/03 at 14:49:28
 
Face it... if your head was there, between the 2 mics, you would have heard the same thing... the speaker, and the room. isnt that how everything works?

Jamie
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Edac
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #194 - 03/20/03 at 19:32:54
 
Jamie, I agree - to a degree!  The mics obviousley are further apart than your ears are, lets say 2m apart, therefore increasing the amount of differing information recieved.  Reduce the distance between the mics and decrease the variation in soundtracs recieved, until the point where the mics are on top of eachother and receiving identical info. Our ears are too close together (!) probably to detect the phenomenon described..

Another point to consider here is the angles of the mics in reference to the front of the speaker.. Steve said it was far from ideal with the mics being at right-angles..  This alone brings in miniscule, yet significant time delays, if one mic was behind the the other...  

I strongly suggest that if Steve were to replicate his recording, with the mics together and dirctly in front of the speaker (at a similar distance as in the first recording), your playback of the resulting recording would sound a great deal more 'mono'.

Try it if you have a sereo recording setup....  I might turn out to be full of you know what.. I hope not!
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Steve Deckert
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If the 1st watt
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Posts: 2973
Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #195 - 03/22/03 at 01:00:23
 
You are both right.  :o

The sound during the recording that night did not sound like mono then either unless you stood directly in front of the speaker at close range.  A large part of the stereo effect was due to the SPL we were playing the speaker at.  I would say around 100 dB ave.  At that level different tones locate on different surfaces which triangulate around the room in different locations.  At a lower playback level I suspect the effect would be reduced.

You would have heard a stereo image if you stood between the mikes that night, however it stands to reason it should also have been enhanced on the recording from the larger distance between the mikes.

Also, each mike was located on the bottom corner of the grill of a 15 inch loudspeaker with rotted foam surrounds.  I believe this enhances the sound by adding additional delay.

Steve
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Corpsdriver
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #196 - 03/24/03 at 19:58:06
 
I bet you own a Bose system edac... i built my first "surround" system out of 6 old stereo speakers and a tube clock radio when i was 10 nyears old. I was a Professional Audio engineer at the ripe old age of 13. you will really need to come up with something better than that, to make me not "Hear the room" unless my head is in the horn.
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Edac
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #197 - 03/25/03 at 00:08:29
 
Hey Corpsdriver..

I don't profess to know all there is to know at all, I am only relaying a theory.. I have spent six years selling and setting up hifi - not long perhaps, but long enough to have experienced a few things..  As to your reply, well, it is slighty ambiguous.. Perhaps you should have set aside your copy of "Valve Manual: 1936" when you were ten, and picked up "English Language For Beginners".  I can recommend the section titled "How To Communicate Effectively With Anything Having An IQ Above That  Of A Hedgehog"..

No Bose system in sight here, sunshine.  Just tubes, and efficient speakers..  Thats why I'm here at Uncle Steves'.

Pull your head out of the horn.  Love Edac.
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Corpsdriver
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #198 - 03/25/03 at 15:47:21
 
My apologies, for coming off like Gomer Pyle after a colonoscopy, I had quite an attitude yesterday. (oh, and double the apology for the Bose incinuation!) The point I WANTED to make was, of all the theory in the world, only about 1% stands up to practical application. (ie. Bose... All show, no go.) My claim to fame (as it were) came from using rooms during recordings, not by close micing in a dead studio and adding it all back in electronically.

Love backatcha,
Jamie

P.S. that was Valve Manual: 1972
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Edac
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Re: Hell, those aren't big !
Reply #199 - 03/25/03 at 18:22:07
 
Jamie, we all have our off-days!  

I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiment about "theory".  I have set up enough subwoofers to know that theory/reality are seldom the same!  You should see where some of them ended up!

Congratulations on the friendly reply to what was an intentional stir.  Considering there was no such thing as Valve Manual: 1990 when I was ten, I have to bow to the superior knowledge I find on sites like this.  Everything added to these pages is valuable in one sense or another.  

I'll NEVER forgive you for the Bose thing!!  Although I am off to Police college, those little bunk rooms requiring nothing more than a little cube + sub of some type..  Needless to say - DIY will be the key.  Maybe some Imperials on a 1/15 scale!!

Cheers, Cade.
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