Forums
http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl
AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> Palomino Audio Project
http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1454259615

Message started by Palomino on 01/31/16 at 17:00:15

Title: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 01/31/16 at 17:00:15

Warning…long post.

The title of this thread is a spoof on the speaker brand Pure Audio Project.  I heard their OB speakers at Axpona last year and liked them.  

http://www.pureaudioproject.com/trio15-open-baffle-speakers-pureaudioproject/

Then I heard ProggRob’s Hawthorne Trios with his UFO Zen and felt the quality bass they produced was something I wanted.  Then I heard Randy’s OBs at the fest with a Augie helper  http://www.caintuckaudio.com/ http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/catalogs/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=19 and liked how musical it was.  Finally, ProggRob came over for a CDApS session and gave his honest opinion that bass was not a strength of my system.  He was right and that pushed me over the point of no return.

So, I had a little mad money at the end of the year and bought a single Augie from Hawthorne Audio along with a Dayton Audio 250W plate amp.  I figured if I liked it well enough I would get a nice baffle from Randy and be all set.  Little did I know…

Well, I got the Augie, stuck it in a 23.5W X 22H MDF baffle made from leftover wood , hooked it up and it was another wow moment for me - like when I heard my Rachael on a PS Audio power conditioner or when I got the Uptone Audio Regen.  But while it was great, I immediately wanted more.



So, I blew up my budget and ordered another Augie.  Stuck it in another MDF baffle made from leftover wood and set it up running off the plate amp in dual mono.  More goodness as the rabbit hole began to open wider and wider.

Then I thought why not get a couple Besty drivers.  Randy’s OBs at the Fest sounded good.  Those don’t cost much, right?  But then I did some research, exchanged notes with Randy and Maddog07 and started weighing out my options.  Betsy?  Audio Nirvana?  Or the Tang Band W8 1808 which was used in the Pure Audio Project?

I finally decided to take a chance on the Tang Band.  I had used a smaller Tang Band in the past in a simple OB I built pre-Decware days.  I figured that the Pure Audio speakers had received good reviews and they were at the core of that sound.   Steve also had a favorable opinion of them when he was looking for an OB driver.  Finally, I had a 20% off coupon from Parts Express so Tang Band it was.

I got the Tang Bands and cut some 23.5W X 13.5H baffles out of old wood and literally tacked them to the Augie MDF baffles with some leftover furring strip and some drywall screws.

The Tang Bands literally sounded like I was listening to music through a telephone hand set.  But, I was emotionally prepared for break in time, so I let them play for 24 hours.   Hmmmm…better.  Another 24 hours.  Better still.  Another day or so and I think we were there.

I played with the crossover frequency on the plate amp.  Originally, about 50hz.  Then full on (180hz), then backed it off to about 70hz.  That seemed about right.  Then I started playing with volume.  I started out with it about ¾.  But after much fiddling, I ended up about only ¼.  

Where these Augies help the most is in helping you feel the low end.  They provide a nice tight foundation.  If you have the crossover set too high, you can definitely hear the nice tight bass, but it starts to mess up and cloud the mid-range.  Same thing with volume.  It’s cool to rattle your walls, but it can overwhelm everything.

Something was still amiss.  Imaging seems off, so I decided to try an old honker Class D stereo amp that I had from pre-Decware days.  I pulled it out of the closet, and hooked it up to the line out from the plate amp, and rewired everything in stereo.

Wow.  Even tighter and more musical bass.   The plate amp wasn’t even close.  No crossover on the class D though, so I exchanged more notes with Randy and did some reading about how guys are powering the bottom end with Crown class D professional amps.  They have input sensitivity adjustment and a digital crossover (low pass/high pass).

In the meantime, I received a gift card from one of my employees for home depot, so I go there and get material to make a prototype of what I had in mind for the final OB.  A  Pure Audio Project style baffle, only without two bass drivers per side, just an Augie per side.



The key to the Pure Audio design is the metal that bolts into three pieces of wood and forms the triangle behind the baffles to give it a three point stance for stability.  I found some 48” aluminum slats at home depot for about $12each. [url= http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-1-1-2-in-x-48-in-Aluminum-Flat-Bar-with-1-8-in-Thick-801987/204273937] http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-1-1-2-in-x-48-in-Aluminum-Flat-Bar-with-1-8-in-Thick-801987/204273937[/url]  

Using some foam board I modeled out the bends and length of each slat.  If I bent them just right, I could get three 16” aluminum bars out of each slat.   I cut them using a hack saw and then bent them using a vice.  

I also picked up some clear pine for the two six foot 1X2s for each side and one six foot 1X3 for the back pillar.  In hindsight, I should have grabbed cherry or oak, but I can always change that out later if I want to.

I cut the wood into 36” lengths, drilled the holes and bolted it together along with a baffle I cut out of cheap plywood for the Augie and used the same baffle I had cut for the Tang Band.  It all worked and was surprisingly stable. It all looked like it was going to work, so I bought some good Baltic Birch ply and made good baffles.







Unfortunately, I picked the coldest weekend of the year to apply the stain and finish to the wood, and royally screwed the baffles up rushing through the job.  When it warmed up, I took the sander to the baffle fronts and refinished them so at least they look pretty good.  



I then made the second frame and bolted everything together and it looked pretty decent.  I also had some adjustable feet that I put on so I could vary the angle.   They stand ~37” high and 23.5” wide.  The middle of the Tang Band is right about ear level for my listening chair.

I sanded down the aluminum bars and applied a rubber paint to make them black and maybe help with vibrations.  I also got some nice black socket head screws, washers and nyloc nuts off ebay and put those on in place of the cheap galvanized nuts and bolts from the prototype and it looks a little more professional.  I still need a few more bolts to completely secure the drivers, but otherwise, they are done.







So back to the Crown amp.  I found one cheap on eBay.  Since the
Crown only has line level inputs, I also bought a cheap high level to line level converter (used in car audio) so I could run the Crown straight off the Torii binding posts.  The el cheapo converter works, but I am going to build a “magic cable” designed by Dennis of Hornshoppe Horns fame that basically involves wiring in a 600 ohm resistor into your speaker wires to step down the juice from your amp to something the Crown can use.



So now I am tuning everything.  The Tang Band does have the typical single driver rising frequency response.  But I have found that playing with toe-in can impact this.  The more off axis you are, the less high end you get.  I am also playing with the treble shunt on the Torii III to help with this and mid-range shout.  The crown crossover point is now right about 100hz and I am running the input sensitivity up around ½ to ¾.  Some of this is due to the Crown requiring more input juice which I suspect the el cheapo line converter does not deliver.  I should be able to back it off again with the Magic Cable once I get it put together.

These speakers do some things amazingly well.  Soundstage, ambience, detail, tight, tight musical bass, real sound quality.   Imaging at first was not bad but not great, so I continue to play with positioning and toe in and it is getting much better.  They play a variety of music very well.   Jazz, light rock, classical, progressive, ambient, classic rock all sound good.   Uber complex stuff does give them a little trouble, but I don’t listen to listen to a lot of stuff like that.

I probably have them in too small a room.  Even though they are duos and not the trios as offered by Hawthorne and Pure Audio, they are a little physically imposing.   I ended up backing my listening chair up and I may move some of my room treatments to fine tune the sound.
I did some REW measurements and they are flatter than expected.  Also, I compared the FR of the OBs to the DIY monoliths and you can most clearly see the pickup between 25 and 100hz, which is kind of what I was after in the first place.  

It was a bit of a winding road getting here, but for now I am an OB guy.  It is a bit addictive.

Thanks to Randy, ProgRob, Darrel Hawthorne and maddog07 for your help.



Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by maddog07 on 01/31/16 at 17:46:41

hey Palomino.....  looking mighty fine.  I like your idea where you used the aluminum bar stock, and bent it... I took the "wood" path for the back bracing of my pseudo Trio's using red oak, and it was a PITA.  And as you know, I went with a 15" AN full-ranger which is breaking-in nicely at this point.  I'm still messing around with my pre/amp/crossover config., and not sure what I like best yet, but the Crown xls-2500 driving four Augie's do not only bass "quantity", but bass "quality" like I've never heard.  I know, that for me, for the foreseeable future, that crossoverless full-rangers and Augie's in OB's are the ticket to the land of Oz.  I don't think I've ever heard more "realistic" sound from a home stereo system.  I also owe some thanks to Randy for showing me the path to enlightenment with OB's.
I spent five hours at a local blues club yesterday afternoon, and as soon as I got home I fired up the stereo to compare my sonic memory of "live" versus reproduced.  Well..... as expected, reproduced still ain't "live", but I'm a helluva lot closer than I've ever been before.....
Actually, amazingly close in some aspects.  I have dynamics, rez, etc. approaching live.  What I lack is "scale".  How do we make our listening rooms sound as "big" as that of a club that's 10x, 15x or 20x the size of our listening rooms?  For one thing, I have a whole stack of Decware diffuser kits sitting in my shop that I've never assembled - this is probably my best bet "next step" - I need to get busy.

again.... nice job - enjoy and keep us posted on the evolution of your project.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 01/31/16 at 19:19:57

Palomino, this appeared at exactly the right time for me. I have been researching OB's all of this weekend. Learning about QT's and excursion lengths and stuff like that.
Your report helps me a lot.
The fab part is the simple stuff for me. I have a whole crew of CAD designers and tool makers that work for me. The aluminum stuff will be cut out on our water jet. I might even have them jet out the baffle holes.
The Rest of the stuff needs to be thought out, but seeing that someone else has figured it out gives me insperation.
You have fired me up, thank you.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 01/31/16 at 22:00:41

Your last build helped me get moving Donnie!

Let me know if you want any measurements.  My metal work was a little sloppy on the first set of bars.  I don't drill so straight.  The second set was better.  Having them precision cut is the way to go.

maddog, I had a peak listening experience last night so I think I am close.  I may be able to move my listening position further back because the measurements don't show the 100hz hump I had before.  I am getting the imaging dialed in.  What a big sound.

Donnie, definitely check out the Augies.  Combined with the Crown amp, the bass is awesome and will not only thrill you musically, but rock you as well.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lin on 01/31/16 at 22:26:37

Nice project!

My 2cents ;)

A narrower baffle for the TB will help imaging.

Preferences vary, but I like less treatment on the wall behind the speakers and the speakers out 5' or more.
At 5.5' (or more) our ears can easily distinguish between direct and reflected sounds.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 01/31/16 at 22:48:31

Lin, How narrow of a baffle should I make if I use TB's?
A guy who works for me has some real nice slabs of walnut that are around 16" wide, I was planning on gluing something up. But being basically lazy, if I can get by without having to do extra work...
But the Augies would need something wider, maybe run the grain east to west instead of north to south?
Oh my oh my, I can see that I'm in trouble now.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/01/16 at 02:39:10

I have to rethink treatments.  It's a completely different ballgame now.  These speakers seem to want nothing behind them.  I will continue to experiment.  

4' from the front wall is about all I can do.  I am getting great depth right now.  Imaging is really dependent on toe in.  

These speakers seem to be easy to crank up too loud ;)

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by JD on 02/01/16 at 12:37:57

I admire your dedication to improving the sound and willingness to try new projects, best of luck. Keep us in the loop.

JD


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lin on 02/01/16 at 13:46:11

Donnie,

16" should work well with an 8" driver; width is a trade off between imaging and how low the the wideband driver will play. I would offset the TB so that the distances from the driver to the top and both sides of the baffle are all different.
You can always make the bottom an H baffle for the Augies. Adding an 8" side panel + 16" = 24" total.


Palomino,

Shorter distances can work fine.
The 11' (5.5' x 2) target allows enough delay that ours brains don't work as hard to determine if a sound is direct or reflected.
I personally prefer an untreated wall as I feel it adds to the "live" sound. I've heard treated wall setups that made OB speakers sound more like monopole speakers.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/01/16 at 14:13:05

Thanks Lin,

When I first set them up, I angled them like the DIY Monoliths (pointed right at my ears).  No depth of soundstage and more songs seemed to have certain instruments pinned to the speaker.  They just didn't disappear as well.

Now I am shooting just to the side of each ear and it has improved a lot.  Perhaps just a shade less focused than my other speakers and a much better disappearing act on most songs.  I think I am going to remove all treatments behind and see what that does for me.

In the size baffle that I have the Tang Bands, they produce a surprising amount of bass.  I've had situations where I forget to turn on the Crown and still had satisfying listening sessions.  Not sure how I would change them much given the Pure Audio style baffle.  I could only whack about 1/2 to 3/4 on each side.  I could experiment top to bottom.  I could also put them back in the old MDF baffles and whack quite a bit off each side and see that that does for me.

Also, I forgot to mention that I feel the Tang Band are conservatively rated drivers at 93db.

I have a few experiments planned once I get the room a little more dialed in and see how the magic cable impacts the bass.  How do they sound with Rachael and no treble shunt?  How do they measure at various seating positions?  Seems the further away the better sounding.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lin on 02/01/16 at 14:58:11

I always ran my Visaton B200s with no (or a very slight) toe in.

BTW thanks for mentioning the Magic Cable.
I have been trying to figure out what to buy to connect my tube integrated to a line level only sub and completely forgot that I have a NOS Magic Cable. 8-)

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/01/16 at 15:08:59

JD,  Just saw your comment.  thanks

Lin,  Here is what I have on the construction of the magic cable.  Look right?

•      You can take a set of IC's and cut the RCA off one end.
         Solder a 600 ohm 1/2 watt 1% resistor to the lead going
            to the center pin
         Solder another piece of wire to the resistor
         And solder a piece of wire to the shield of the IC cable.  

•      The RCA will plug into the Crown's RCA inputs

•      The bare wires will hook to the amp speaker connections

The resistor goes to the "positive" on the power amp, right along with the speaker leads.


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lin on 02/01/16 at 22:50:18

Sorry I don't know. :-[          Ed made mine.

Here is something I found while searching; reply 3:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=97456.0


Russound ADP-1.2
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=139602.0

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/02/16 at 13:59:59

I saw those in my search as well.  Randy passed on the formula to me from people in the know so I believe it is right.  What I listed above includes my edits for understanding.  

I have a couple resistors on the way.

Last night I removed the absorbers/bass traps from behind the OBs.  I think I prefer it as it offers more of a feel for the studio/venue.

I also played again with the cross-over point on the Crown.  I went as high as 250hz (which is where Pure Audio crosses their W8.  Too muddy.  Then I went down as low as 50hz and it lacked the punch that makes these speakers more dynamic.  So now I am back around 100hz and it is sounding pretty good.

No real complaints about the imaging.  There are some situations where I feel like the baffles block sound waves from coming back to me, but generally, I close my eyes and forget they are there and all is good.

I did some before and after measurements and those absorbers/bass traps were doing their job, but I think it took too much away from the top end and ambience.  I think these boys like to breath.  I still kept the diffusers back there and added some styro diffusers where the absorbers/bass trap were.

Anyway, I am getting good sound once I have that cross-over dialed in.  I'll continue to do my OCD futzing, but its mostly gravy now.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by maddog07 on 02/02/16 at 20:27:42

I agree Pal... rear reflections are a "good thing" for a dipole OB speaker.  That is precisely what is responsible for their characteristic "big" sound... some like it - some don't.  I think it makes for a more realistic sound myself.  I do not have any treatments behind mine, but I am considering messing around with some "diffusion".  I think absorption behind the speakers would be a bad thing in most cases, unless you have a really nasty response peak or something.

I was studying the magic cables to allow you to step down the speaker outputs of a power amp to drive the line level inputs of another amp.  Looks reasonable, but it would seem to me (and I'm not an electrical engineer) that 1/2 watt power rating on the resistor would be too small.  For example, if you were taking another speaker level feed off a Torii to drive the inputs of the Crown, and the Torii is rated for 24-25 watts - wouldn't the resistor need to be able to handle that much power?  Perhaps due to input impedance of the Crown (or any amp) only very little "power" is actually transmitted - I don't know.  

Can anybody explain this?

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/02/16 at 20:30:17

I wondered this myself, but decided to stick as close to the magic cable formula as I could.  I actually could not find a 1/2 watt, so I went with 1 watt.

BTW, I may have mentioned this before, but the 600 ohm is specifically for the Crown, not some other amp/plate amp.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by ProggRob on 02/02/16 at 22:44:28

Pal, mighty impressive work!  I really want to stop by soon, I'm simply  not content just reading about it.  When I hear it, then I will post!

Maddog - you don't believe that bass trapping in the corners behind the speakers is a good idea?  Are you saying no absorption of any kind?

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/02/16 at 23:16:19

If you and el Presidente are up for it, maybe Sunday.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by maddog07 on 02/03/16 at 18:11:01

I'm saying don't install absorption "just because" - only install absorption if you need it.  I think in "most" cases diffusion is beneficial, but I think absorption is really, really room dependent.  Just my .02 ¢

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/03/16 at 18:27:00

I felt I needed absorbers before the OBs and got noticeable improvements - mostly from bass traps but also at first reflection points.  They decay charts or whatever they call them in REW looked a lot better with them in place.  Not much echo in my room.

With the OBs I felt it was cutting down on the ambient sound too much, so I pulled the bass traps that were behind the Monoliths, catching some of the horn bass from those speakers.  I moved these to the rear of the room for now.

Next will come the diffusion experiments.  Where to put it, what kind, etc.  

While a PITA, I think room tuning is in order after major change.  It can be fun too, but I have been spending a lot of time tooling through the albums playing "I wonder how this track will sound."  Once I get sick of that, I will probably get more done.  

What would take me weeks, I could get done in an afternoon if I can get Rob and Eric over.   I am tagging songs for my OB demo list in Audirvana so I can show the good and not so good with these speakers.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by maddog07 on 02/03/16 at 18:33:30


Quote:
I wondered this myself, but decided to stick as close to the magic cable formula as I could.  I actually could not find a 1/2 watt, so I went with 1 watt.

BTW, I may have mentioned this before, but the 600 ohm is specifically for the Crown, not some other amp/plate amp.


I did some investigation on this... google "speaker level to line level" and pay particular attention to the url:

http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/speaker_to_line.html

what we are talking about here is a voltage divider it looks like, and for amplifiers of average gain, a 10k ohm resistor in series on the + conductor and a 1k resistor in parallel across + and - gives us a 1,000 ohm output impedance and a 20db reduction (10:1) attenuation.  If we substitute a volume pot for the 1K resistor... we have a "variable" attenuator.... which could be quite useful.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/03/16 at 18:42:26

Interesting.  You could dial in what your bass speaker amp likes.

I don't know how Dennis came up with 600 ohm as "the" amount of resistance other than through trial and error.

I should have the resistors by the weekend or Monday so I can give it a try.  

The El Cheapo does have an adjustment for each channel, but I turned it up to wide open because the Crown did not seem to be getting enough.  It needs +4dBu pro levels at the RCAs to work its best.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/03/16 at 22:33:15

I think its neat that we are sharing OB experiments.  I have been in touch with Randy for his insights.

Hopefully, others will weigh in or join the "brotherhood of the open baffle" (boob).

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 02/03/16 at 22:47:34

Palomino,
I'm working hard to play with the Boob's.
There are deals to be made acquiring the right kind of wood for the look I'm going for. The plan is that the edges will still have bark on them.
Driver selection is next, Wild Burro, Tang Band or even something else, who knows what can turn up.
I'm truly excited.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/03/16 at 23:01:50

Every time I go to the hardwood lumber yard I see those big slabs with the bark still on and fantasize about doing a project with one.  Could make for some cool OBs.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/04/16 at 14:08:24

I had a fun night last night messing around with these OBs.

On most songs, they pretty much disappear, but on others I get this weird “two plane” situation.  Behind the speakers I get a nice wide and very deep soundstage, but up front on the plane of the OBs, I’d get a second plane.  So overall, the soundstage would be disjointed.

So, with the advice given in this thread, I started playing again with toe in.  I started out with zero toe in.  The speakers disappeared.  But, the soundstage lost depth and I lost highs as I was even more off axis.  

So I went in an inch at a time to try to optimize the soundstage depth without the speakers re-appearing or getting the two plane situation.  I was also able to move my seating position back up to near where it used to be.  I am playing with the Torii treble shunt at the same time.  

I am not done optimizing these three levers as I got it to sounding pretty good and the speakers sucked me back in to just listening.  I tried again this morning and just sat there listening and tapping my toes.

So more toe in = soundstage depth (knew this going in) and flatter highs

Less toe in = less depth, but more disappearing, plus less highs (but also less shout on certain shouty songs)

I think this is good news for non Torii owners who might want to try this combination because I am running the Torii wide open on both the bass and treble dials.  I will probably try Rachael tonight to see how she sounds.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by jpv on 02/05/16 at 14:56:14

Palomino,
   Can you attached the REW MDAT file? I would like to see whats going on. Do you do a REW when you make the Changes in position or equipment? I find it very interesting to see what the changes are doing to my FR, decay,....
JPV

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/05/16 at 15:02:34

I have done some measurements.  Documented them the best I could to keep track of what I did.  I'll mess around with it some more this weekend and try to be more disciplined.  I am an REW nube, but I do have a calibrated mic.

In general, I mostly see variations in the curve when I adjust the Torii.  I see changes in the decay rate when I mess with diffusers/absorbers.

I think what they are telling me now is elevated mid bass (Augies), elevation in the mids, and a flatter to lower highs.

I'll see what I can do this weekend.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/06/16 at 13:07:58

I got the resistors and made up a couple of magic cables.  Big difference vs the el cheapo auto line converter.  Better volume, weight and slam.  But also a significant amount of buzz.  I had to go back to the el cheapo.

I resoldered everything and tried a couple configurations to no a avail. Something I am missing.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by DBC on 02/06/16 at 15:36:20

Was reading over this link provided earlier:

http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/speaker_to_line.html

This caught my eye:


Quote:
Remember that this circuit is designed only to be used with normal amplifiers which have common ground for speaker signals.


In my mind this is not very specific. Does this suggest that normal amplifiers are common between negative speaker posts? Or does this suggest common between negative speaker posts and the Chassis (earth ground)?

I took an Ohm meter to my SE84C+. No continuity between Left & Right negative speaker posts (not common). No continuity between Left or Right negative speaker post and chassis (floating speaker transformer ground)?

I'm assuming your Main amp and Crown amp are connected to the same power source (same Earth Ground)? If this is the case then technically there should be no voltage potential between the two amp chassis.

In other words if you put your voltage tester on AC Volts, 20 Volt Range then you should read 0.00 volts when touching one volt meter lead to the chassis of the Main amp and the other lead to the Crown amp.

If you get anything more than a few hundredths of a volt, try touching a wire or attaching a test lead between the two amp chassis to see if that makes any difference with the Buzzing.

Let's say you have 0.10 volts that is trying to get from Amp Chassis A to Amp Chassis B. Current will try to get from A to B via your Magic Cable possibly creating the Buzz you have. Attaching a separate lead between each amp chassis provides an alternate path with less resistance and might eliminate your Buzz ???


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/06/16 at 16:48:18

Worth a try. Let me see if I can measure anything between the two amps.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by DBC on 02/06/16 at 17:15:24

Do you use a power conditioner? Is everything in the system plugged into that or are some components plugged into other power sources?

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/06/16 at 17:54:57

Yes everything is plugged into the powerplant.   No buzz on the car stereo line converter.   Only with the magic cable.  

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/07/16 at 15:35:35

I tried a few things suggested for the buzz with the magic cable but no solution yet.  I am not done trying but taking a break on that front.  I did send Dennis at Hornshoppe a note to see if he could offer any insights since he came up with the idea.

The car stereo line converter works OK, just doesn't supply the juice to really make the Augies sing like the magic cable does.

I put Rachael in the system to see how she sounded.  I found I had to change the crossover point and increase the input sensitivity on the crown in order to fill out the mid to bottom end and bring it closer to the density of sound produced by the Torii.  I got the expected SET goodness, but I also have concerns that over time you would want the Torii treble shunt to reduce shout.  At a minimum, tube compliment would be important.

This has been an interesting project as it has given me experience in several new areas:

1. Open baffles (only flirted in this area before)
2. Bi-amping and specifically using a pro power amp to do so
4. Digital xover / finding the right sweet spot in terms of input sensitivity/crossover point
5. Speaker positioning / room treatments to make it all work

I tossed the DIY Monoliths back into the system for a little A/B.  I was worried that maybe I gave up some imaging and possibly some front to back soundstage.  Not so.  I don't think I gave up much if anything on the imaging and soundstage is improved in several areas.  Plus I gained detail, transparency and more/tighter low end.

I now think I am happy with these speakers.  Now to get some external confirmation.  Rob is going to try to swing by on Friday and I am still working on Eric.  Both have better and younger ears than me.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lon on 02/07/16 at 16:39:11

Just a note: I had a Rachel with a treble cut circuit installed, it can be added.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by DBC on 02/07/16 at 17:01:33

Pal,

I was looking at the Tang Band W8 1808 specs at 93db which is where my Omega Monitors are rated and the Eminence Alpha15A blends seamlessly with no crossover and no extra amp.

You might consider trying the Alpha15A's if they fit in your existing baffle cut-out ??? Looks like the Tang Bang is 8 Ohm so the Tang Bang & Alpha15A wired in parallel would be a 4 Ohm nominal load.

If I'm not mistaken the Crown does Analog to Digital conversion at it's input. Crossover is manipulated digitally and then a Digital to Analog conversion at the output plus extra cables and Speaker Level to Line Level conversion. That is a lot of audio signal Slicing & Dicing. It's kind of like turning a tomato into tomato juice and then reassembling it back into a tomato ???

Last night in my large listening room, I was listening at an average of 88 db with peaks to 93 db on two watts from my UFO.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/07/16 at 20:25:17

Yeah that's what had me concerned going in but the crown plus the augie is the best bass i have heard regardless of slicing and dicing of signal.  I am a horn guy who is not real crazy about crossovers to begin with.

I am open to trying the 15a's in a future build.  They are so inexpensive for what you get.  It's the driver the augies are based on I am pretty sure.  I see pure audio has their version of the augie now too.  I'm afraid I am hooked on bi amping though.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/07/16 at 20:26:38

Lon I did not know that. Thanks

Is it available on the zen?

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lon on 02/07/16 at 20:52:00

When the Treble Cut Circuit was new Steve told me that the circuit could be added to any amp. Then the ZMA came out and he told me it could not be added to the ZMA. I think it may depend on the year of the Zen amp. . . and Steve is really the only one who can definitively answer.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Dave1210 on 02/08/16 at 16:33:19

Pal...have you thought about using the FRX2 drivers?  I don't think you would need the treble cut circuit and the output of the Rachel's should be a perfect match.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/08/16 at 18:22:26

I gave the FRX2 a look.  Intriguing but a lot more expensive.

I am at a good spot with these speakers and intend to run them with the W8s via the Torii III.

It's only if I want to also run them via Rachael or some day a Zen that the W8 concerns me due to no treble shunt.  I do want some other ears on these to tell me if they feel the same way.

There is a possibility that you could also tame what I am hearing with tubes or other tweaks.  For example, ProgRob has a coax that provides a very even presentation.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/08/16 at 18:24:33

BTW, Dennis did get back to me about the magic cable, but he didn't have any ideas on what is causing the buzz.  So I am back to trying different things.

I may give Steve a call to see if he has any ideas.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Core32 on 02/08/16 at 22:54:36

Pal,
Do you have a link to the schematic (or representative drawing) of the magic cable?
With my background I might be able to help troubleshoot.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/09/16 at 02:05:57

Thanks Core.  It is pretty simple.  See post #11 on the first page of this thread for a diagram.  It should show up but I have seen times where just the box with an x in it shows up.

It's a 600 ohm resistor soldered to the center pin of an RCA Jack.  The other end of the resistor is soldered to a wire which goes to the positive speaker terminal on the Torii.  

Then another wire soldered to the shield of the RCA.  That wire is connected to the negative speaker terminal on the Torii.   Repeat for the other channel.  

The RCAs are then plugged into the left and right input jacks on the crown amp.  The 600 ohm seems to knock the speaker level input to just what the crown needs.

I need to figure this out because it is much better using the magic cable.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/09/16 at 14:29:42

Last night I just accepted the buzz and listened to music.  Yes, it was there when I hit a quiet passage or between songs and yes it was annoying, but I have one word to describe the bass from this Crown/Augie setup:  sublime.  In fact its so addicting that I am going to live with the buzz rather than go back to the el cheapo line converter.

I have about 30 tracks in my collection that I like for testing bass and last night I listened to them all and was glued to my listening chair.  This morning I listened to Daft Punk Random Access Memories in 24/96.  I have to be in the right mood for this album, but it has great bass and again, it captivated me.

So, I am scanning the web for buzz solutions.  There is a fair amount out there on the Crown amp but no definitive solution yet.

So other facts that may help someone help with with this issue:

1.  I get the buzzing when the Crown amp is off.  It is amplified and changes tone once I turn it on.

2.  I have plugged the Crown into an entirely different circuit in my room and it is about 5X worse than when it is plugged into the Power Plant Premiere.

If I get a chance tonight, I will try a shielded cable and also see if I get the same buzz going through my plate amp to the Crown.  

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lon on 02/09/16 at 14:34:42

Silly question: do you have cable TV/internet service connected to this system? The only time I had a strong buzz I could not eradicate it turned out to be traveling along the cable line and I installed a filter. . .dead silent thereafter.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Core32 on 02/09/16 at 14:58:32

Looking at the connections I would suspect the ground of the Crown RCA jack is feeding back and creating a ground loop via the speaker connection. You could measure the RCA jack ground on the Crown to the chassis to see if it is a direct connection to your power amp.
I'm not that familiar with the Crown internals but if it is a direct chassis connection you could try adding a series 50 ohm resistor in the shield path back to the speaker negative instead of a straight wire (as part of your magic cable).
One thing for sure, be careful when isolating grounds between chassis that could be floating and then touching both at the same time.
You do not want to be the thing that completes the circuit!  :)

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/09/16 at 15:23:35

Good suggestions Core.

There is something in the el cheapo line converter that is preventing this loop because it is dead silent when hooked up.  Could be the resistor you suggest.  I am tempted to open it up and see.

To be clear, I want a wire going from the Crown RCA input "outer plug" to the Crown chassis?  What should I set my multi-meter for and what would be a significant reading?

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Core32 on 02/09/16 at 15:31:35

Dang. I have no way of adding a drawing here at work....
To measure, disconnect everything from the Crown, power cables, etc.
Then set the meter to Ohms and measure between the RCA input that the magic cable was plugged into, outer (shield) and the Crown chassis.
If it's not isolated you will get a pretty small #, like less than 5 ohms.
The 50 ohm, if you decide to try it, would be in series with the "other" wire going back to the speaker negative from the Crown RCA.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by DBC on 02/09/16 at 15:32:00


Quote:
Pal wrote:

So other facts that may help someone help with with this issue:

1.  I get the buzzing when the Crown amp is off.  It is amplified and changes tone once I turn it on.

2.  I have plugged the Crown into an entirely different circuit in my room and it is about 5X worse than when it is plugged into the Power Plant Premiere.


Above, #1 and especially #2 suggest a ground loop.

I'm not sure how your power plant handles earth ground? Just to be sure that it has nothing to do with the power plant I suggest just as a test plug everything into the same circuit without the power plant.

Using an Ohm Meter I would expect continuity (0 resistance) between the power pant metal chassis and the power plant power cord Earth Ground prong. Should also have 0 resistance from each power plant outlet Earth Ground socket (supplying your components) to power plant power cord Earth Ground prong.

The RCA plugs on your Decware and Crown consist of the outer Jacket and inner socket. You should find the jackets are strapped to Earth Ground. Using an Ohm meter there should be total continuity (no resistance) from any RCA jacket to the metal chassis on each amp.

With everything plugged into your power plant, up-plug the power plant from the wall circuit. You should have total continuity (0 resistance) from each amps RCA jackets to Earth Ground prong on the power plant power cord.

For instance if you have 0 Ohms from Decware amp chassis to power plant Earth Ground and 50 Ohms from Decware amp chassis to power plant Earth Ground this could be an issue.




Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/09/16 at 15:38:18

Thanks all.  I have a few homework assignments.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by DBC on 02/09/16 at 15:54:21

I mentioned earlier that on my Decware SE84CS+ that there is no continuity between the negative speaker posts and the amp chassis (Earth Ground). I think this would be considered a Floating Ground.

When you attach interconnects between components the RCA jackets on both ends are typically connected to Earth Ground (RCA jackets are common to the amp chassis & earth ground). So the negative interconnect lead serves as a ground wire between the two componets helping in most cases to minimize potential for ground loop buzz.

Since you are connecting your Decware speaker level outputs to the Crown RCA inputs there may be a problem if your negative speaker outputs are Floating separate from Earth Ground. Decware Floating Ground connected to Crown Earth Ground. This could cause a voltage potential between the two amp chassis resulting in the buzz.

Attaching a test lead between the Decware chassis and Crown chassis may or may not help.


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/09/16 at 15:58:15

If what you say is true, then Core32's suggestion of the 50 ohm resistor could help??

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Core32 on 02/09/16 at 16:19:18

It may attenuate the buzz.
It's really about what the connection design inside the Crown input looks like. Kind of a black box at this point and the 50 ohm might help.
My guess is the converter your trying that is quieter but lacking has some isolation circuit that is attenuating or filtering in a way your ears can hear.
Maybe a high-pass filter.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/09/16 at 16:22:11

I can give the 50 ohm a try.

Also attaching the test lead between the two amp chassis might help.  Attaching to the Crown is easy.  Not sure where to attach to the Torii??

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Core32 on 02/09/16 at 16:31:22

Are you trying to measure with the meter or make a common ground connection?

Edit: Just a terminology brain fart on my part. :)
If you know where the Torii chassis ground screw is, that would be the place.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by DBC on 02/09/16 at 18:04:14


Quote:
Pal wrote:

I can give the 50 ohm a try.

Also attaching the test lead between the two amp chassis might help.  Attaching to the Crown is easy.  Not sure where to attach to the Torii??




Center rear of amp is the power receptical. Center receptical prong is the Earth Ground. Ohm meter should test 0 resistance between power receptical Earth Ground prong and: RCA outer jackets, Top plate, Top plate screws & probably toggle switches. So a lead between the two amp chassis can be attached anywhere on the chassis that is common with the power receptical Earth Ground prong on each amp.

Check for continuity from power receptical Earth Ground prong to negative speaker post. If there is no continuity then speaker negative is floating separately from the AC power receptical Earth Ground.

Best to have speaker wires and interconnects removed when testing for the above.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/09/16 at 19:11:07

Thanks.  I talked to Steve and he said it is floating ground on the Torii III.  I also found Ed's specific comment that the magic cable is designed to work with amps with a common ground only.

Steve said to see if attaching a wire to the Crown Chassis and touching a screw on a Torii transformer has an impact.  

I was in a hurry (people knocking on my office door) but I think he said a longer term solution if this works would be to attach a wire to an RCA outer jack (which is connected to the ground) to the Crown chassis via a wire.

If that doesn't pan out, then look into resistors.  He thought the el cheapo employed a resistor (like a 10K ohm) and that's why no buzz with it.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Core32 on 02/09/16 at 19:20:19

If it works you could also just use a single RCA cable and connect an unused RCA INPUT on the Crown to an unused RCA INPUT on the Torii if they are available.
No harm in connecting two INPUTS together between amps.
This would have the same effect (but neater) as the wire between amp grounds.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/09/16 at 19:23:40

Thanks

I have an unused RCA input on the Torii, but the Crown just has one set which I am already using with the magic cables.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Core32 on 02/09/16 at 19:29:02

If there is an RCA output on the Crown it could still be connected to the RCA INPUT on the Torii, as long as it's some standard signal out.
Just a thought.
Obviously no OUTPUT-to-OUTPUT connections are recommended....   :)

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/10/16 at 12:02:10

I did some of my homework. Crown RCA to chassis =0.  Connecting Crown chassis to Torii = no help.

Other findings:

It's definitely between the Torri and the crown.  I shut off and or disconnected everything and no effect except when I shut off the lpsu for the DAC.  That changed the tone and possibly the intensity of the buzz.  I have two other lpsu and shutting those off had no impact.

I also popped Rachael back in and the volume of the buzz dropped by at least half.  

Rachael was also a shout test.  With no treble shunt I wanted to see how it sounded.  I have to bump the crossover up to 250hz (from 50hz on the Torii) to get a similar level of weight in the music.  But once settled in I did not detect a high degree of shout.  Maybe I need to listen longer.

So I think another strength in this design is using the crown crossover could allow for better amp matching with the speakers.

Also the plan is for Rob to stop over on Friday to give these a listen and provide impressions.  He may bring his zen UFO.  

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Core32 on 02/10/16 at 12:47:44

So the Crown inputs are grounded (=0) and the Torii speaker outputs are floating.
Definitely a ground loop situation feeding back to the speaker.
Can you lift the ground connections ONLY of the magic cables going back to the speaker (-) ?
So the series resistor part of the magic cable is the only connection between Crown and speaker?
Start with the volume low, just in case removing the ground reference causes the buzz to be louder in stead of quieter.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/10/16 at 15:32:32

Not sure I understand.  Where does the crown get the music signal from?

Right now:  Torii L/R speaker terminals --> magic cable L/R (with resistor) --> Crown RCA input --> Crown speaker output --> Augie woofer.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Core32 on 02/10/16 at 15:45:38

You leave the signal path intact. Just remove the ground wire from the magic cable.
The magic cable consists of two wires. One that has the series resistor in it (signal) and the other just goes from the outer connection to the speaker (-).
You remove the outer connection only.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/10/16 at 15:47:36

OK, I'll be cautious, but give it a try.  I am also going to pick up a couple 10K resistors to try on the negative as well.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Core32 on 02/10/16 at 15:51:42

Leaving the ground wire off is like adding a really REALLY large value resistor......    ;)

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/10/16 at 16:29:45

Hey anybody got any suggestions for connecting the Tang Band W8 speaker wires?

Not sure of the sizes, but there are two different size tabs for + and - like most drivers.

In previous builds, I just put in terminals and soldered a wire between them and the driver tabs.  I'd rather not do that with these open baffles since they are, well, open and I don't need to add the extra connection.

Right now I am going direct to the tabs with 16g Western Electric wire.  The wire doesn't fit the hole in the tab, so a portion of it is jammed up into the tab and then wrapped around to meet the other part that won't fit through the hole.

I don't want to solder them because I do switch out speakers and I don't want to use the traditional quick disconnect tabs because they are such low quality.

I have looked around ebay, parts express, etc. and don't see anything of much higher quality.  Some gold plated brass quick disconnects which probably aren't bad, but the tab size seems pretty wide and I'm not sure it will have enough friction to hold the smaller tab.

Anyway any other thoughts short of putting some speaker terminals on the OBs?

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by DBC on 02/10/16 at 21:30:14

Pal,

Have you tried searching on amazon for "Female Spade", they have quite a few options. Available widths include: 6.3 mm = 0.25", 4.8 mm = 0.20", 2.8 mm = 0.11" I could only find 6.3 mm at Parts Express which seems strange?

The tabs on my Alpha 15A are 4.8 mm. I use the non-insulated Female Spade with shrink wrap and they look nice.

http://www.amazon.com/100Pcs-Pluggable-Terminals-Female-Connector/dp/B016WZM3S8/ref=sr_1_2?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1455139029&sr=1-2&keywords=female+spade+4.8mm

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/11/16 at 01:58:07

Thanks DBC.  Those are copper which I can live with.

Core, guess who's system is producing music with no buzz whatsoever?

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by DBC on 02/11/16 at 02:07:32

So how did you cure the BUZZ ???

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/11/16 at 02:24:25

Core suggested I disconnect the negative wire on the magic cable.  I did and slowly turned up the volume with no music playing and it was dead silent.  Then I played some music and sure enough the augies were doing their thing.

So on floating ground amps, you only need the positive wire with the resistor soldered to the center pin on the RCA.  No negative wire needed.  

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by DBC on 02/11/16 at 02:38:39

Makes some sense. Mixing Floating Ground of Decware and Earth Ground of Crown and the two together are not happy. Great News.

Solving Grounding issues are often a lot of trial and error.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/11/16 at 14:09:10

I have to correct myself.  This morning with the house quiet and with my ear about a foot from the W8 the same buzz was still detectable.  I had said dead quiet and it's not.  It's low enough though that I would place it in the tube swish or quieter category.  

I am going to remove the negative wire from the magic cables in case those are picking up the noise, but otherwise, I think I am satisfied the buzz has been dealt with.

Funny thing happened while I was obsessing over the buzz this past week.  The W8's broke in more and now sound significantly better.

I have controlled my glowing comments mostly to the Augies and the bass they produce, but now I am getting more of the full package and promise of this setup.

Better how?  More of a 3D space around the instruments and they are weaving a better contextual soundscape.  I used to be drawn to the bass line because it was so musical, now the rest of the composition can't be ignored.  I think I may finally be reaping the benefits of the single driver phenomenon in terms of coherency.

The timing is good with Rob stopping over to give them a listen.  He has a much better ear and vocabulary for describing what he hears.  Rob is an OB owner/fan so I think he can give me some perspective on mine, but also I think he can give me an idea of where these are among speakers, regardless of format.

Rob, if you are reading this, I listened to that rocking Buckethead song this morning - the one that I think sold you on the UFO upgrade.  My toes were tapping and I was doing the Beavis and Butthead head bob, that's for sure.  That song has been added to the demo list.

Oh, and bring the Zen.  I know we don't have a lot of time, but I'd like to pop it in to see how the UFOs sound in this rig.




Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Core32 on 02/12/16 at 12:13:55

Glad to hear it Pal.
With the Torii's floating outputs and removing the magic cable ground connection to the Crown, the "return path" is now through the common earth ground of both amps power supplies. (The AC power cable ground.)
That is still not ideal but what it has done is removed the majority of the ground loop and thus the buzz.
I do not think there is a passive way to reduce it further and any "active" way may just color the sound to the Crown.
Maybe make sure the Torii and Crown are powered from the exact same AC circuit.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/12/16 at 12:30:35

Well, here is another piece of the puzzle.

I couldn't figure out how I missed the remaining buzz.  I'm not that deaf.

So I was listening this morning and messing around with stuff, switching between songs and I actually heard it from the listening position. What? How can this be intermittent?   So I changed songs and when my DAC recognized a new song resolution, it actually changed tone.  I stopped audirvana and it stopped altogether.  

Then I remembered the reduction in buzz when I turned off the linear power supply for the DAC.  

So now I am thinking of grounding the DAC (it has a grounding post like a turntable) and/or moving it.

What should I try grounding it too?

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Core32 on 02/12/16 at 13:00:10

Did you say you had an AC line isolation transformer or similar that your Torii and Crown are being powered from?
If so if that has a ground lug I would do it there.
Proper grounding is such a pain in the ass for critical audio listening.
Adding a ground is just as likely to exacerbate the problem as fix it....

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/12/16 at 13:45:36

Yeah it's a pain.  I have t confronted this much before.

I have a ps audio power plant premiere.

The DAC has an external power supply which is plugged into the power plant.  The power chord going from the power supply to the DAC is a simple barrel connector.

When I unplug the RCAs from the DAC it goes quiet again.  

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Core32 on 02/12/16 at 13:50:12

The DACs external power supply, what type connection does it have to the power plant?
If it is just two prong or just a wall wart/brick that could again be a source of ground loop.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/12/16 at 14:48:37

It has a good grounded inlet / power cord.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/13/16 at 14:44:20

Rob stopped over yesterday afternoon for a mini CDApS.  We only had an hour.  We demo’d the OBs on the Torii using some of my music and some that he brought.  Then we played with the crossover point and finally, we put the Zen UFO in to see how it did.

I hope Rob will get some time to weigh in with his thoughts.  He was impressed with the speed and transparency of the Tang Bands.  He also commented that the highs were good.   He thought the bottom end was good, but felt that the Crown did not better his dual Rythmik plate amps he runs the 4 Augies in his Trios with.

We threw some pretty heavy stuff (at least heavy for me) at the OBs and all but a couple of songs, I think the Tang Bands held up and produced enjoyable music.  One song we couldn’t finish was an Alabama Shakes song.  I may give that one another try under a different gain mix as it’s a pretty hot recording.  

I think these speakers are widening my musical horizons.  Not sure I am going to become a metal head, but I dig some of the progressive rock Rob has on his playlist and even some of his metal.  I think one of Rob’s parting comments was that these speakers were very good for the kind of music I listen to.  Lots of jazz and lighter rock with some alternative rock tossed in.  He preferred the meat of the larger 15” coax driver in his Trios for more of the music he listens to.

We experimented with the crossover and both felt that the higher crossover of around 105Hz sounded better with the Torii.  I had it set at around 50hz when we started.  I punched it up to 250hz and we both agreed it sounded horrible.  I may still try high passing the Tang Bands at 250hz (like Pure Audio) rather than low passing the Augies at 250hz.

We tossed in the Zen but unfortunately, we did not get the quality of results we got with the Torii.  We did adjust the crossover up to try to give it more weight, but still the results were not as satisfying.  I got similar results with Rachael, but hoped that maybe the UFOs would come to the rescue.  Overall, my conclusion is that the Tang Bands need more juice.

Eric is next up.  We've just had difficulty connecting with our schedules lately.

After Rob left, my son came home from college.  We ate some Chinese food and had a couple glasses of wine.  I always ask him to listen to my system when he comes home and he kind of grudgingly does so.  So the agreement was he would listen to one song.  

He likes that Daft Punk Random Access Memories album so I put on a track.  Head started bobbing, foot tapping.  So we listened to another, then another and after about 30 minutes he said, “can we hook up my Macbook?”  

We listened to all kinds of stuff and had a little bonding time. We played hip hop, progressive, electronic, alternative etc.  A couple hours later, his Macbook ran out of juice so only then, we quit.  My point being that I believe these speakers to be engaging across a wide variety of music.  

BTW, it was interesting what a hit the performance took when we switched to his Macbook.  Rather than download the USB drivers, we just ran optical.   I felt pretty good about the investment in the upgrades to my Mac mini.  And for sure felt better about USB vs optical.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by DPC on 02/13/16 at 20:33:14

Splendid writeup Pal!  Have been using OB here for a few years now.  Gives us DIY folks a shot at making something that sounds way above it's price point.

I thank our friend Randy for the advise on the AMT Heil's.  They made the music really "pop" for me!

Dennis

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/13/16 at 23:30:48

One thing I discovered during my build is that Randy's design is deceptively simple.  The man has experience and that OB design of his is no accident.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 02/14/16 at 03:28:23

Palo, How did you come up with the width? Is there Some sort of calculation for figuring it out?
I'm kicking around with the idea of an 32" width now. More for symmetry than anything.
My CAD Monkey should have me drawings Monday, I'll share my ideas with you then.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/14/16 at 13:37:39

I just wanted at least 22" because Darrell Hawthorne said his  production baffles are that wide and Randy also suggested the wider you go the better the bass on an OB.

There are guys on that gravity of the dark Star thread that experimented with crazy widths.  

I think my next build will be thinner just to see what I lose in the bass department.   I can't have something this big in a second system.  Back a few years ago pre decware I did some with the piano hinge.  You could fold them when you were not using them.  It was a short term experiment because I could never integrate the bass properly.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Dave1210 on 02/14/16 at 16:18:31

You guys are probably already aware of this, but it appears as if the below monitor is the only finished speaker offered from Hawthorne Audio these days.  The baffle is made of marble/ceramic.  



Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Core32 on 02/14/16 at 16:24:40

Bet those don't come with "FREE SHIPPING!!!!"   lol
Maybe a small fork-lift!

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by TubeNube on 02/17/16 at 01:01:40

Hey Palomino,

I seem to be having HUGE problems posting, so I'll try the pictures first.

Randy

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by TubeNube on 02/17/16 at 01:06:01

My new favorite (and recurring) phrase on the forum: "An Error Has Occurred".

It appears that my admittedly rudimentary computer skills are worse than I had feared.  

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by TubeNube on 02/17/16 at 01:27:50

OK, now let me try my actual response:

I've been meaning to write to you for a week or more now, since you posted your OB project. Last summer I ran across a local guy who wanted to sell/partial trade his Hawthorne Audio Rainiers - my dream speakers. I had a couple of components that he wanted, so I was able to do a trade plus some $$, and they were mine. Great sound top to bottom w/a big, wide soundstage. Then about a week or so before you posted, I saw an ad on US Audio Mart from a guy wanting to sell his Hawthorne Audio Duets. They had 10" Sterling Silver Iris coaxial mids, w/15" Augies. He included a dbx 234XS active crossover, as he had not had passive XOs made. When they came I set them up using my Cary Audio Six Pacs on the mids, a Crown XLS 1500 sub amp that came as part of the Rainier sale on the Augies, run through the active crossover. I have to say that I was way underwhelmed. Next I switched the Crown out for a Dayton Audio SA1000 that I had, and it got marginally better, but still not what I was looking for. Then I dropped the crossover, and just went full range. YOWZA! Now we're talking. Big, room-filling sound. I'm still messing with placement, but I'm pretty happy with them - especially given what I paid. So I think that we are on parallel tracks, although now I have to think about selling some of my speaker stock, much as I don't want to. Looking like a dang retail store around here.  Some of the ones that I'm thinking of letting go: my Blumenstein Orca single drivers, my Decware Monoliths (I know!), my rosewood VMPS RM30s (in the background of the first pic above) with their killer midrange, and maybe even my beautiful blue Zu Essence MK I Bs. (Well, I'll have to think hard about those - they ROCK!!). Anyway, I'm hoping that my recent OB experiments will qualify me for BOOB status.

Happy eargasms,
Randy

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by DBC on 02/17/16 at 19:11:17


Quote:
TubeNube wrote:

Then about a week or so before you posted, I saw an ad on US Audio Mart from a guy wanting to sell his Hawthorne Audio Duets. They had 10" Sterling Silver Iris coaxial mids, w/15" Augies. He included a dbx 234XS active crossover, as he had not had passive XOs made. When they came I set them up using my Cary Audio Six Pacs on the mids, a Crown XLS 1500 sub amp that came as part of the Rainier sale on the Augies, run through the active crossover. I have to say that I was way underwhelmed. Next I switched the Crown out for a Dayton Audio SA1000 that I had, and it got marginally better, but still not what I was looking for. Then I dropped the crossover, and just went full range. YOWZA! Now we're talking. Big, room-filling sound. I'm still messing with placement, but I'm pretty happy with them - especially given what I paid.


Similar experience with my 15" Lo Frequency Open Baffles. I run them full range, big open sound. I tried a couple of Eminence passive crossovers and it just sucked the life out of the low end (a night & day difference).

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/17/16 at 19:22:54

I have reviewed your qualifications and have to agree that you do indeed qualify for BoOb status.  Congratulations

BTW, I saw that listing for the Hawthorne stuff.  Great deal.

There was somebody out east selling two Augies for $250 that was pretty tempting as well.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by TubeNube on 02/18/16 at 01:19:55

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Pal.

I already have my next project in mind, if my ship comes in. Or more correctly I should say if I can ever reinflate myself after the squashing that I took when the real estate market tanked. Anyway, if Steve is still making the FRX2 drivers, I'd like to pair those in an open baffle with a Tori Jr straight from a source. No preamp, no ZStage, no ZBit, no nuthin'. I have been finding that I'm happiest with the music when my system is the simplest. (OK, well, I do have my Regen with Curious Cables before and after in my system, so there's that). I'd also like to 3D print the baffle - but not before I do a few mockups in cheapo plywood. Never any shortage of ideas around here (just $$).

Randy

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 02/18/16 at 01:27:56

Funny that 3D printing was brought up. My CAD Monkey was designing some parts to be printed for my OB's today.
If he can draw it, we can print it. PFM, Pure Friggin Magic.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/18/16 at 01:46:31

Hey Randy do you hear benefit of the curious cable before and after the regen?

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by TubeNube on 02/18/16 at 03:02:37

Pal,
I do hear a difference, but it's subtle between one or the other vs. both. I would say that I get a little fuller/smoother sound w/both. But as I said, subtle. Although I would not call the difference between my regular USB cable with the solid Uptone Audio connection vs. the two Curious Cables. I'm using my MacBook Pro into either my Wadia 121 dac or my TEAC UD-501 as a source, and with the Curious Cables, it's as close as I've come to the sound that I get with either of my CD players (I have one of Steve's 200i players with the tube output and a Raysonic CD128).

Regarding my previous post, I should also mention that the OB system w/the FRX2 that I'm thinking of will be for near-to-midfield listening, for two reasons: (1) I want to get as close to what I call "unfiltered" music as I can, and (2) I have PLENTY of larger floorstanders without adding another pair.  

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Dave1210 on 02/19/16 at 17:52:24

Randy…I really like the idea of 3D printing the baffles.  What printing material are you planning to use and will it be anti-resonant?  

I have also been eyeing the FRX2 drivers due to treble frequency response.  I don't have a treble control on my amp to tame the high frequency increase typically present on most single driver systems.

I wonder how the FRX2 would sound in combination with an AMT driver as a super tweeter?


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by TubeNube on 02/20/16 at 00:41:40

Dave,

I really haven't looked into the printing material yet. All I know is what I've seen at a local UPS store that prints small objects - not big enough for what I want. (I'm thinking of a large bookshelf design maybe 14" wide by 16" tall, with the driver up maybe 2/3 of the vertical dimension). They have 3 materials at the store that I've seen: a softer, more porous material; a medium-density material; and then a rigid resin product, which is what I think would be best for a speaker baffle. I need something that will hold a screw, if possible. If not, it will need to be drilled out for an anchor. I'd also like to integrate the base of the baffle with the face during the printing process, with an integrated cradle at the back of the base, which would come up to support the back of the driver. I'm thinking that I would need some sort of rubberized material (like Steve puts between his DM945 and the Companion Cabinet to make his Monoliths) lining the cradle to cut out vibrations between the driver and the cradle. This is all just rolling around in my mind at this point - I haven't set pencil to drafting paper yet. And, as I said, I need to make a couple of different-sized mockups out of wood before settling on a final design, as I think the 3D printing process is still a little spendy, and I'd like to get it right the first time.

As for using the AMT in conjunction with the FRX2, I'm not planning on doing that, as I'm trying to keep my system as simple as possible. I know that overtones can add to the realism of music, but at my age, I'm not sure how much (if any) tones above the 25KHz that the FRX2 puts out are making it through to me. Sad, I know. I wish that I had gotten into this hobby years ago, but I'm enjoying it now, so what the hell.

Anyway, I think that if enough of us express an interest in the FRX2, maybe Steve will be motivated to make another batch. If I'm reading the webpage right, he builds these in blocks of 10. I'm not sure if that means that he waits until he has orders/deposits from 10 buyers before he starts a batch, or...? I guess I wouldn't blame him if that's the case. I need to sell a couple of sets of speakers and an amp or two before I get serious about this project, but when I do, I'll call Steve and get some answers to my questions. I'll post what I find out for others who might be interested.

Randy

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 02/20/16 at 03:35:39

It really matters what kind of 3D printer you have in regards of what kind of material you can use.
Most small "Maker Bots" are just melting what amounts to ABS plastic.
Some of the high end stuff have many different materials from hard plastic to a pliable plastic that feels like rubber.
This week I watched a printer print metal. It was slow and glitchy, but it is the future.
I've seen sand, ceramic, wax, plastic and metal printed.
I'm going to print up logo's for my new OB speakers this week, just because I can.  

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by TubeNube on 02/20/16 at 07:44:01

I hear you, Donnie. I need to know a lot more about the machines, the materials, the process before I can do what I want to do. That's why I want to make wooden mockups first, so that I can be enjoying/refining the sound while I do my research. That way, if it takes a while for me to educate myself on the wonders of 3D printing, no big deal. And I've noticed that most of the "consumer grade" printers don't handle objects as large as I need, so I'll have to search out a specialty shop. And I'm guessing that that will be spendy - especially for a one-off. Good thing I won't be in a hurry.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by beowulf on 02/20/16 at 09:00:58

@ Donnie and TubeNube - this makes me wonder what kind of material VPI uses for their 3D printed tone arm.  Supposedly it's very non-resonant.

@ Palomino - speaking of single drivers and Pure Audio Project ... they are starting to use Voxativ drivers in their newest open baffle design.  I'm not sure if you've heard of Voxativ, but they make some of the best full range drivers out there being fanatical about the build quality and PAP are combining them with a unique crossover design (Leonidas Crossover) that seems like it focuses on the bass drivers and gets pretty much out of the way of the fullrange drivers.

These are the drivers and will be 95dB @ 8ohms in Pure Audio Project's open baffle design ... those specs are great for tube lovers.  This is something I would love to hear!






Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/20/16 at 16:46:49

Yeah proggrob turned me on to those drivers.  A bit expensive though.

I got some new input tubes per a post by Stone. Seem very nice so far but they. Red some more hours.  Already producing a nice smooth sound.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/24/16 at 12:29:10

Here is a graphic representation on what the Augies do for the Tang Bands.  I said 100z over on Donnie's thread, but its 200z, then the lines come together.


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/26/16 at 15:08:06

Under the category of "it all matters," the sound in these speakers has taken a nice jump with some good NOS input tubes in the Torii (thanks Stone).  Smoother but better detail, bigger soundstage, but not lacking any punch.

Single drivers seem a lot more sensitive to what tubes you are using.  They just have a lot more speed and finesse and therefore react.

I think my next step is rectifiers.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/29/16 at 14:14:30

I stopped by the local hifi shop today to see what they are featuring.  They like Manley tube stuff and I was hoping to give some a listen.

Instead they had some microwave sized class A amp going in that room paired with some $8K speakers.  What impressed me the most was Sony's digital player.  I haven't had time to research it but it is a FPGA based DAC with 1tb disk drive.  You can plug an external disk drive up to it but not much else.  Its meant to be an integrated solution only.  Balanced output.  

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/sony-hap-z1es-hdd-audio-player/

Anyway, the $8K speakers sounded pretty good.  Nice imaging and a nice layered soundstage.  I was not blown away by the bass.  It wasn't that tight and was slightly bloated.  What I came away with was a couple thoughts.  1. There is no replacement for displacement.  The Augies rule.  2. Why don't I have that depth of soundstage?

So I came home and started fiddling around.  

The issue I have with speaker placement is a limited size room.  I didn't want these OBs right on top of me.  With the DIY monoliths, I had a 7'2" triangle going with about 4' behind each speaker.  I tried to maintain that with the OB's but ended up sliding my listening chair back about 10-12".  So I had heard that 5' was a suggested distance for OBs from the front wall.  Given I had about a foot to work with, I slid them out.

Well, I got about 80% of the soundstage that those pricey speakers had.  I don't think the layering was as good, but most of it was there.  For $1K, these things are getting more and more impressive as I tweak.  Plus, the bass in the OBs killed those speakers.

Lesson learned is that OBs really benefit from distance from the wall - more than other speakers perhaps.

I am not sure I would go for all in one player, but if you are, that Sony at $2K seems like a good deal to me.  Nice ipad/iphone interface as well.  I will check it out again at Axpona.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 02/29/16 at 22:44:15

Palomino,
You need to double up on the Augies! If you don't have four 15's you ain't squat!
I'm like you, running out of room to pull them forward, unless I change direction in the room or move out to the other, bigger room down here....
My wife is going to kill me.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 03/01/16 at 01:34:59

Go big or go home!  

I built my frames so that all I have to do is re-drill three new taller wood support pieces for the frame and I could add another level for more augie goodness.  I would probably have to add another set of aluminum bars as well but no biggie.

I am thinking my next build might be an econo version with a  betsy / 15a combo for my other system.  I'd make the baffles a little thinner/shorter so they aren't as intimidating and may achieve a little higher WAF.

The more I fiddle, the more I like OBs.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 03/01/16 at 15:46:35

A byproduct of moving the OBs out from the front wall is that it misaligned my first reflection point absorbers and the second reflection point QRD diffusers.  So I wondered if that misalignment was contributing to the expanding and deepening soundstage.

To test this, I moved the absorber/diffuser further back, but I also switched them up.  Now the diffuser is at the first reflection point and the absorber is at the second.

I may be on to something here as it seemed to expand the soundstage.  I need to listen some more but what I heard was promising.  

OBs may defy conventional wisdom on this point.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lin on 03/01/16 at 22:33:01

OBs may defy conventional wisdom on this (many) point(s).

Fixed it for you. ;)

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 03/01/16 at 22:40:48

Thanks.  It has been an interesting lesson.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 03/01/16 at 23:11:13

My OB's are really changing my thought process also. While I'm not  going to delude myself by thinking that they are as good as my MG944's, they are pretty doggone good.
They sound so different, it is so very hard to describe. I noticed last night that the soundstage was much higher than what I am used to. Maybe I've gotten the full range driver too high??
It sure is fun messing with something without having visions of grandeur that I can do something better than the pros. It expands your vision.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 03/04/16 at 18:14:31

Well some more rambling thoughts.  Not sure there is anyone still reading this thread, but here's the latest.

These OB are providing me something else which is a bit difficult to describe.  They are giving me accessibility to more of my (modest) music library.  By accessibility, I mean that I enjoy more of my music when listening to them.

Here's an example.  back in 2000 or so when I was trying expand my jazz listening horizons, I got this double disk "The Jazz Masters."  It has stuff by all the notables ranging from Billy Holiday to Duke to Miles Davis, Mingus and more.  Prior to the OBs, I didn't listen to much of it, even in my jazz playlists because of the production quality.

Well, with the OBs, the "music" is coming through and yesterday I listened to both disks and enjoyed nearly all the tracks.  More of that music is accessible to me now.

I am also finding myself doing more album listening than playlist listening and I have been playlist oriented practically all of my life.  The album music is now holding my interest longer - even on the less preferred tracks.

Off topic, but as I came to this discovery, I reflected on all the ways I have done playlists or mix tapes over the years:

1. 8 track (my dad had a double deck)
2. Reel to reel.  When my dad upgraded to Musak for his store, I got his reel to reel (still have it).
3. Cassette.  I also still have my Nakamichi
4. Sony mini disk (I have this deck as well)
5. CD
6. iTunes, iPod
7. Hi Def Portable Player

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lon on 03/04/16 at 18:24:44

I'm reading the thread. Glad you enjoyed the "Jazz Masters" material! I haven't been commenting as I'm completely enthralled by my HR-1s and not tempted by other speakers or speaker types, but enjoy reading your explorations and impressions.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 03/04/16 at 18:31:29

Good to know you are out there Lon.  I miss the what's spinning thread being here as I check out your posts there frequently, just have not posted myself.

I would imagine most people would not go through this for a pair of speakers (OK, Donnie is an exception).

It started as a subwoofer project, morphed into an fullrange OB project, involved two prototypes, the final design, room treatment changes, speaker placement changes, tube changes, adventures in bi-amping, etc. but I have learned along the way and "think" it may all be worth it.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lon on 03/04/16 at 18:37:56

I imagine it's worth it for what you have learned already, and the joys of discovery. I admire your ability to dedicate the time and "mind" to exploring and analyzing. And I'm envious of the "like minds" you have to get together with on occasion and share results and ideas. Keep at all of this!

I found this quote interesting: "These OB are providing me something else which is a bit difficult to describe.  They are giving me accessibility to more of my (modest) music library.  By accessibility, I mean that I enjoy more of my music when listening to them."

This has been the result of my system metamorphosis that I found most satisfying. I stopped looking for the best detail, the best sound staging, the best imaging, etc. and really tried to get my system to be "most enjoyable" to most of the music I want to listen to. The Torii Mk III, the HR-1s, the ZP3 and the PS Audio front ends and power components have really gotten me right where I want to be, and cabling has been the final stage of dialing in. . . . This could go on forever, but I'm more and more inclined to just stop and enjoy the music. I keep buying more and more music because I want to and CAN listen to it all, enjoying the listening is where we start, and hopefully end. . . . In the middle for me there was all this trying and trying and analyzing and thinking and trying. . . at times the music was eclipsed. Now the listening (and because it's an all encompassing audio and video system, also the watching) is really fun and enjoyable and I tinker less and less.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 03/04/16 at 23:24:33


Quote:
(OK, Donnie is an exception)

I've been an exception my whole life. I was raised to be a black sheep and a scapegoat.
It is interesting to me that while I was doing my research on OB's, Palomino started doing reports describing his build. It was very fortuitous for me because the groundwork was already done, and I'm not too proud to copy. Lin has been very helpful also, he points out things that I had absolutely no clue about.
Being able to make something that works is really cool.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by TubeNube on 03/05/16 at 03:54:02

I'm still reading as well, Pal. I took a break from my OB experiments because my VMPS center channel came back from a local speaker maker who was upgrading the crossover, but I have appreciated hearing the results of your experiments, as it has a direct bearing on what I'm doing. For instance, you recommended moving the OBs out to 5 feet from the front wall - I had mine out 4 feet, and the extra foot made a nice difference. The sound got bigger, fatter, and the soundstage widened a little more, although I'm still not knocked out by the width of the soundstage - I'll play with that a little more. I will say one thing that I noticed with OBs (or at least with the Hawthorne Audio Duets that I have) - in my room they seem very sensitive to toe-in. I had them pretty much parallel with the front wall to start, and wasn't getting the imaging that I wanted. I toed them in just an inch/inch and a half, and the center image appeared POOF like magic. Such a small change made such a big difference, I had to go back and do it again. Sure enough, they are that responsive to position change. Pretty amazing sound for not much money in the scheme of things.

Speaking of much money, I took the plunge today and ordered a pair of FRX2 drivers from Steve. Not really in the budget at this point, and I won't really have a lot of time for a while to experiment with baffles, but I seem to have been bitten hard by the OB bug. Had to have them, and that's that. I'll report any/all progress that I make with them when I have time.

Randy

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 03/05/16 at 04:36:30

I find the same thing about toe in. Very sensitive but once you get it, it's good.  

These tang bands are also very tube sensitive as well. Much easier to hear differences in tubes. I just got in some '74 single wire getter reflector 6n23ps.  They took forever to get here but early signs are that they will live up to their billing.  

I am also now convinced that the Torii needs to turned up about 3/4 with audirvana with a lower output volume.  It's much much more sensitive to volume changes but I'm loving the density of the sound.

I am anxious to hear tales of the frx2s!

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by TubeNube on 03/07/16 at 23:35:53

Will do, Pal. When I heard from Steve last Friday, he said that he had a pair ready to go, so no 8 - 12 week wait. So I may get to start my experiment a little sooner than I had thought. Gotta love that.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 03/07/16 at 23:37:13

Yeah, that's great.  good luck

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 03/14/16 at 14:23:21

I've been mostly listening, but I was getting a bit of midrange shout on some songs so I tweaked the eq in Audirvana.  It helped.  

I also switched back to the RCA 5U4Gs as they are more laid back that the 274Bs.  I'll listen to these for a while and then switch back.

There is so much to tweak on the Torii, I am certainly not done.

I'm getting great soundstage now.  I am also loving the bottom end.  I'm not sure I can live without the Augie/Crown combo.  I am looking forward to Axpona in hopes of hearing some 15As for a comparison.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 03/14/16 at 16:58:45


I thought we weren't doing AXPONA this year? I didn't get tickets, and I believe I made other plans already....

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 03/14/16 at 21:29:40

Sent you an email

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 03/14/16 at 22:01:20

Another event this weekend was my son was home and a friend from out of town spent the night.

The next day I was skipping around playing various tunes and played Gula by Deadmou5.  They came in the room because they knew the song.   I goosed the volume a little bit to show off.

Anyway, the drop hit and they just started laughing in amazement it was so full and solid.  Nice to know I can blow college kids out of the room with this rig.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 03/17/16 at 20:27:14


That's awesome...I think I need to come by soon with The Redhead and give the new setup a good listen.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 03/22/16 at 18:24:11

I will prepare a special chix mix demo playlist in her honor.  Maybe if we link up for Axpona, you could swing by early before we head to the show.

The RCA 5u4g rectifiers remain in the system and I am finding less edge using them.  I will know for sure when I switch back.  Also, I can make out bass notes even better with the 5u4gs but weirdly, they aren't as crisp if that makes any sense.  More note definition without more note detail??  Still trying to wrap my head around this one.

I also got my second set of '74 Reflektor single wire getter, silver shield 6n23ps in the mail yesterday.  Much quicker deliver from Russia than from Ukraine. And these are much cleaner NIB, NOS.  I really wish somebody else would try these and see how good they are and more importantly how they compare to other NOS like the Amperex, Tele's etc.

OBs with live recordings gets me there pretty fast.  Last night's treat was Eva Cassidy, Live at Blues Alley.  Not as 3D as the Cowboy Junkies Trinity Sessions, but still quite enjoyable.  If anybody has other live recordings that fill the room, I am all ears, so to speak.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lon on 03/22/16 at 19:18:07

I'll suggest "Trinity Revisited" again. :)

I don't have experience with those Reflektor tubes, but I do have experience with single wire silver shield Voskhod 6N23Ps and they are really good. I prefer Amperex and other 7308s in both the amp and preamp, but these are certainly very good and I'm sure I could build a tube complement around them that would make excellent sound.

I know what you mean about those RCA rectifiers. I liked the 274Bs (really 5U4Gs) that Steve ships, especially in the cryo'd version, but prefer the RCAs--the 274Bs are just a bit too bold and etched for my purposes. . . . And I've moved to 5V4G types myself (they work ideally with the Arcturus OA3 regulator tubes I'm using). I will always sacrifice a tiny touch of detail for the right tonal balance and doing so helps my system's musicality/bit of forgiveness to non-stellar recordings. . . . And somehow this century it's been RCA rectifiers that always deliver.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 04/07/16 at 20:15:07

I was running the absorbers at the first reflection point again and ran that way for several weeks.  Over the Easter break, I went back to diffusers at the first reflection point.  That's it.  I'm done.  

Best 3D sound I have ever had.  I think the silver shield 6n23ps in combination with the RCA rectifiers and the diffusion is the final ticket. Ok, OK, I am doing a little bit of EQ on the Mac mini to cut shout.  Just a smidge.

Anyway, much monkeying around, but I think I got it going on.

I just bought some '75 Reflector Single wire, silver shields.  Still have my eyes on some Amprex.  Somebody stop me.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 04/07/16 at 20:35:48

So when can Michelle and I swing by for listen? LOL

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 04/07/16 at 20:50:21

Maybe Saturday.  I have to see what all my kids have going on but my wife will be out of town.

By the way I also made it to Michigan to open up the cottage.  I listened to the dna's on Rachael.   Felt kinda boxy.  OB bass is special.   I eventually got re acclimated and enjoyed listening.  I also moved the whole system up into the loft to have about 15ft behind the speakers and got good dimensionality.  Still I came home and was blown away.  

I exchanged emails with the zieg-meister about the OBs.  He basically felt they required just the right system synergy so he doesn't have interest.  I'd have to agree they are not a mass market product.  But if you are a patient tweeter, he shall be rewarded.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 04/09/16 at 14:45:18

First of all, I think it is pretty cool that we have 3 different OB design experiments going.  I am inspired by what Donnie and DBC have going on.

So I got up early this morning to listen before people start asking me for stuff and I came up with a way to describe my OB soundstage of late.  There is no one thing that "makes' this sound.  Its a pure synergy thing if there ever was one.  Thanks for the direction everyone has provided along the way.

Anyway, here is the best way I know how to describe it.

Imagine in front of you are a number of beach balls suspended from the ceiling at different heights and depths.  Each beach ball represents an instrument with sound emanating within its own sphere.  

Now close your eyes and with the beach balls still placed in your mind, imagine the overall space they inhabit being limitless.  The space you are in is, in and of itself, a sphere of sorts and you are suspended within it.  Depending on the song, the beach balls go to different depths from front to back.

This differs from the soundstage I achieved with horns both in terms of the shape of the beach balls (they were more like suspended flat plates) and the limitless size of the sphere you were sitting in.

So hopefully that sounds attractive and perhaps different to people.  What the kicker is though is I came up with this description without the Crown amp on supplying juice to the Augies.  Long story, but the amp is on the floor and I turn it on with my toe and just didn't notice that I didn't depress the on button far enough.

The combination of the Tang Bands putting out enough bass and the kind of music I was listening to lead to me listening to two songs before I realized nothing was coming from the Augies.

Anyway, the impact of the Augies did take away from the overall effect and the beach balls flattened a little.  They lost a bit of that defined, just reach out and tap them spherical shape.  Not terrible, but it seems a trade off of sorts - bass for 3D effect.

I am hoping that somebody that actually knows something about speaker design (as opposed to me) can weigh in here.  Is this the blending that DBC talks about in his thread?  And if so, what is the physical phenomenon that is impacting the 3D effect?  Some kind of phase smearing or something?

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by DBC on 04/09/16 at 15:59:37

Pal,

Your "Beach Ball" analogy, could not have stated it better myself. I get the same effect.

Unlike you, I'm using a more conventional Omega Monitor with single driver in a conventional monitor cabinet. My Low Frequency Open Baffles (LoFOB's) are connected to my Zen UFO in parallel with the Omega Monitors and the blend is seamless.

I did try a Bi-Amp arrangement. Zen UFO driving the Omega Monitors and SE84C+ driving the LoFOB's. To my surprise the Monitors and LoFOB's simply sounded disconnected and separate from each other. The total cohesion noted above was lost. So yes, I speculate there is some type of time smearing going on that the human ear is sensitive to when music is involved.

Even with the crown amp "OFF", you might be getting some sympathetic output from the 15" driver by simply being in the same baffle as the other driver?  I recall Steve saying he had this effect when he had a huge Home Wrecker I think it was in his old listening room. The Home Wrecker when off would reinforce the low end of any speaker playing in the room.

I think your Augies are about 88 db where the Alpha 15's are about 98 db. Have you tried simply wiring the Augies in parallel with your other driver??  

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lin on 04/09/16 at 16:01:35

FWIW I didn't keep my Augies (10" ?) very long, never could get them to work to my satisfaction with Visaton B200s.
In retrospect they may have worked better after I started using 2 B200s in a 1.5 way.
I definitely feel that a higher x-o point narrows the options on drivers that will work best.

AFAIK there has always been a conflict between low bass and the ultimate image when reproducing music in the home.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lin on 04/09/16 at 16:10:57

"Even with the crown amp "OFF", you might be getting some sympathetic output from the 15" driver by simply being in the same baffle as the other driver?  I recall Steve saying he had this effect when he had a huge Home Wrecker I think it was in his old listening room. The Home Wrecker when off would reinforce the low end of any speaker playing in the room."

Not too likely to cause anything audible with OB, the Imperial SO caused this because of the enclosure.
The ZOBs use the same principle to produce more bass. When designing the ZOBs Steve used a mike in the chamber feeding an amp and another driver in a separate box to boost the "free" bass.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by DBC on 04/09/16 at 16:11:43


Quote:
Steve Deckert wrote:

One of the great things about the original imperials that I had, was the sympathetic bass they produced when exited by any other speaker in the room.  Everything had great bass and you never had to actually turn the imperials on!  As cool as it was, I determined it was a problem for ME because I was using the room to evaluate speaker designs and couldn't tell how much bass the speakers really had.  


http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1277647494

See reply #4.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 04/09/16 at 16:27:40

I don't think its so much a frequency blend issue.  Versus subs, this is clearly the best frequency blend I have achieved and in terms of the bass being crisp, its no contest with the augies.

Its simply seem to have some impact on the overall 3D effect with the beach balls.  Certainly not a deal killer in any way, but I believe there is an impact.  I've listened to some more songs and it appears it is only evident on the songs with the very best beach ball effect going on.

I wish I had more patience to read about this stuff.  But the sound waves emanating from the augies has to be conflicting in some way with the sound waves from the Tang Bands.  The only word I can think of is smear but I have to admit, I don't really know exactly what that word means.

I have not run the tang bands and augies together due to the mismatch in SPL.  Tang Bands are a loud 93db and the augies are 88 or 89 I think.

I did run the original augie without crossover on an old Class D amp I have and thought it sounded pretty good.  That's what lead me to the class D crown.  But the crown with two augies wide open sounded pretty bad.  Not sure why the difference between the two amps.  But again, its not a frequcncy blend issue.  I think its a sound wave collision issue.  Its minor, but there.

I am convinced that OBs will sound killer in my cottage system with the larger room and arched ceiling.  I'd like to do a smaller size baffle for WAF and maybe go 10" for the woofer (I'll check to see if there is a 10" augie).  But, given some of your comments DBC, the 15A might be in the mix without a biamp situation.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lin on 04/09/16 at 16:36:53

"But the sound waves emanating from the augies has to be conflicting in some way with the sound waves from the Tang Bands."

This is mostly what I understand it to be. IME the type of enclosures does not matter.

Have you ever tried the Augies with the Crown and just an inductor?

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by DBC on 04/09/16 at 16:44:06

I understand the Augies are lower SPL, if you wire them in parallel you should get some output and perhaps a taste of what a higher SPL driver could do wired in parallel to the same amplifier?

I know a big factor with my LoFOB's is baffle stability. Even using 1.5" thick baltic birch baffles the baffles have to be well stabilized for best SQ (thus the heavy duty brackets I used). I just wonder with your thinner baffle if there is not some interaction between the two drivers in addition to the fact they are driven by two different amps? Just thinking out loud.

I have 2 sets of LoFOB's, 15" using the Alpha-15A's and 12" using the Beta-12A-2. I was not expecting much out of the 12A's but they really sound good in my large listening room. They do 90 % of what the 15A's do in my large room and they are just a TAD bit Faster / Crisper if that makes any sense. I could be very happy with the 12's and I bet they just get better in a smaller room.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lin on 04/09/16 at 16:52:02

The Beta 12As are faster and crisper because of the lower qts and mms. 8-)

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by DBC on 04/09/16 at 17:29:14

Pal,

Just an observation. I found on my LoFOB's, having them elevated off the floor by a good 1-1/2 inches seems to let them breathe / more air. When I had them sitting closer to the floor they started to get a little boxy sounding. I noticed that your photos have the lower baffle pretty close to the floor.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 04/09/16 at 18:22:15

Sounds like a couple things to try.  Thanks.

I am off on another journey right now.  My '75 silver shields were just delivered.  These are supposed to be better than the '74s.  We'll see.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 04/11/16 at 14:26:34

Well, the 75 6n23ps were a disappointment.  One of them was DOA.  Such are the perils of buying from Russia.  The seller seems to want to make it good and has been very open in his communications.  

The one that did work had the same signature of the '74.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 04/11/16 at 20:23:50

Since I was thwarted on the tube front, I did re-read the comments related to blending and re-experimented with the crossover in the Crown.  I'm a little slow on the uptake sometimes.

I think that crossing over lower aided the beachball effect, but took some of the punch out of the upper mid bass which I like.  So I'll live with slightly less imaging to get mid bass or run just the Tang Band alone on some material.  One of the things I like about this setup is that you can tweak.

Also, I finally hung the fractal diffusers on the rear wall like I meant to 9 months or so ago.  They had been sitting on the back tables and it was only a matter of time before one toppled over.


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 04/12/16 at 23:31:46

So I did some listening and felt that not running the Crown was a sub optimal solution, even for music that didn't have that much bass.

So I took the stepped attenuators on the Crown all the way down and then brought them up one click at a time and listened at each stop.  It doesn't have that many stops so this experiment went pretty quickly.

BTW, my test track was Bela Fleck, UFOTOFU, after the storm.  One of my better beach ball songs.

I found that that I was able to maintain the best imaging with the Crown two clicks below my previous level, but still had enough satisfying bass on most tracks.  I think the amount of bass pressure I was introducing was interfering with the other frequencies.  Just a guess.

I can bump up the bass when I'm rocking out and use this lower level for most music.  In hindsight, I am a bit of a bass head.  The temptation with the biamped augies is to crank it up because this configuration so crisp and clean.

So the OB journey continues, but I have reached a nice plateau listening wise.  

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 04/12/16 at 23:53:54

Palo,
I'm hoping that the two 15"s in each of my OB's will satisfy my need for bass. Hopefully the need for bi amping will be mitigated. But, sometimes more isn't better.
Time will tell.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 04/13/16 at 02:27:05

I think you will have plenty of bass.  I think the crossover is going to be more important for you.  Does your Torii have the bass control or does it pre-date when Steve started adding it?

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 04/14/16 at 15:32:25

Dear OB Diary:  Day 4, no tweaks.  I haven't gotten out of the chair to approach the system other than to turn in on and off.  Nervous but thrilled with the current sound.  Must. resist. tweaking.

It was about a year ago that I saw the Pure Audio design at Axpona and around 4 months since I started down this path.  Have I arrived?  

Maybe.  

We'll see how my system fairs versus the big boys at Axpona.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 04/19/16 at 19:01:40

Days without a tweak: 0.

I came back from Axpona with a few thoughts and my actions/plans to improve.

First of all, to compare what I heard at Axpona to what I hear in my room is a bit unfair.  I have a fairly well treated room which makes all the difference in terms of imaging.  These guys are setting up in a cement sarcophagus and can’t tote large room treatments to compensate.  They can’t even pull their speakers out from the wall for depth of soundstage.

So in terms of depth of soundstage, only the modo speakers in the mondo rooms came close to what I have.  Those who ran the smaller rooms lengthwise with the speakers on the long wall with 3-4 feet space behind the speakers did better than those that ran the speakers against the shorter wall.  But generally, no Bueno.

I was pleasantly surprised at how well my mids and highs compared to the expensive stuff at the show.  I have my concerns from time to time (track to track) on the glare factor; the more expensive speakers I heard even had issues on some tracks.  

That left bass.  I can categorically say that I did not hear tight, musical, impactful bass like I have with the Augie/Crown setup in any of speakers I heard.  Not to stir the pot too much, but two of the OBs I heard are Eminence 15a based and it was not as tight or as impactful.  The Spatial OBs were musical, but were not as tight and didn’t have the impact.

That said, when I came back I did "up" the attenuators on the Crown because other box speakers had more of a fullness to them.  I know I sacrifice imaging here, but the beauty of the bi-amp design is you can easily tweak the bass level for the kind of music you are listening to.  I can also experiment with the crossover point, but I keep coming back to the same level so I think I am good in that department.

The other area where I really think this design needs work is baffle thickness.  The Spatial OBs are 2.5” of thick dense MDF.  Those bad boys didn’t seem to budge.  I think I am losing a lot of energy with my thin baffle/metal and wood support system.

So if I can find some longer furniture bolts, I could double up the baffles with some material and make it at least 1.5”.  I could route the driver hole in the backing material large enough to allow me to not have to re-drill the driver mounting screws on the existing baffles.

All in all, its hard to be objective on something you built, but toe to toe, my speakers held up really well.  And in my room, I am not left wanting for much.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 06/05/16 at 14:29:42

Well, my adventures in OB land continue.  There have been ups and downs.  Clearly the OB route is not for the setter and forgetters.  The one consistent has been the imaging and very open sound, which is why I went this route in the first place.

Most of my experimentation has been with input tubes.  I have found for each set of input tubes, I need to tweak settings on the Torii.  Some tubes are simply too aggressive.  Others too dull.  

The Mullard NOS 6922s provide the richest, smoothest and balanced sound to date.  With these, I have the bias switch to the back position, the treble shunt about 60% open and now I run the bass nearly full on.  Long story, but having heard Rob’s OBs, I felt I was missing too much information in the lower mids/upper bass. I pick up a little more of this with the bass nearly full on.  I have backed off the Crown a couple notches to allow for this.

I also am now pretty set on using NOS RCA 5u4g rectifiers.  The 274Bs are too forward.  I do like them on some music.

I studied the REW response curve and do apply a little EQ to lower the upper mids.  Also there is a hump around 100hz that I smooth as well.

I did try some Western Electric 10GA from the Crown to the Augies.  I really like the smooth, musical tone of the 16GA on the Tang Bands 1808s.  Unfortunately, the WE 10GA on the Augies did not pan out.  The bass is too mushy and blurred.  I went back to the Styx wire which I feel is very dynamic and punchy.

I am going to live with these speakers for a while, but I would like to try a larger format full ranger like an AN15 at some point.  

I could also get crazy and add another Augie to each side.  Having heard Rob’s Hawthorne Trios, that extra bass can be amazing.  I’d probably have to start over with new wood and reduce the size of the baffles to fit 3 in.  Not a walk in the park but not overly difficult in the Pure Audio Project style setup.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by maddog07 on 06/06/16 at 18:47:36

with two 15" Augie's per side (4 Total) in my modified Trio's, and the 2500 Crown driving them, I simply cannot ever imagine wanting more bass.  I think this setup will lift our house off its foundation if I wanted to.  When I first got the Crown, I had some "integration" blues with my full-range crossover-less drivers as well.  I just couldn't seem to get the sound where I was "comfortable" with it.
I had an external electronic xover sitting around that has a lot more xover parameter flexibility/adjustment than what is provided built-in to the Crown.  So... what the heck, I installed it.  Normally, I am a "purist" and would have poo-poo'd adding another box, but there is no doubt that the external xover got me where I wanted to be.  I now have the Crown in Stereo bypass mode being feed by the low pass output of the external xover.  I feed my full-rangers a "full range" signal directly from my Torii - no high-passing thru the xover.  I sense no "blend" or integration problems anymore.

Pal - have you tried swapping phase on the Augie's to be opposite of the full-ranger?  Sometimes that will have profound effect on the overall sound - depending on..... it's worth a try - cost nothing to try.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by ProggRob on 06/07/16 at 02:46:15

I have tried setting the phase at 180 degrees from my coax driver and it was a definite no-go for me, but you never know!  It would seem to make more sense if the Augies weren't mounted along the same plane as the main driver(s) and you had to tweak the timing a bit.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 08/15/16 at 22:19:36

Well, we had a quick CDaPs meeting Sunday with just myself and El Presidente.  Excellent session and great feedback on my OBs.

Eric liked some of what he heard but repeated some of what Rob had said about upper bass not coming through.  So I did switch phase on the Augies and things got a lot better.  Bass has much better pop to it and is more filled in.  I would definitely try this if you have augies or 15As to see what you get.

Second, he thought that the bass was not coherent between the augies and the Tang Bands so we played with crossover.  I had been running it at only 50 hz lately and that was too low.  We tried about 3-4 different points but settled on 70hz which is where I ended up in my initial round of fiddling.

Finally, Eric thought that the instruments were flat and not 3D sounding.  Well, lately I was experimenting with oversampling.  When I switched back to no oversampling, we got a more lifelike sound.

We then tossed in the ZMA and wow. Talk about full and detailed.  Almost wish I wouldn't have heard that  :(.  Anyway, you would have to figure out how to tame a bit of the glare to make it work long term (we tried input tubes and it seemed to shift some of the edge to a lower frequency).

So while El Presidente is not an OB fan, he was grooving after some tweaks.  he felt some music was better than others.  He especially liked Rock on these speakers.  I felt bass was good pre-phase shift.  Now its monster.

We hope to get a CDApS session in before Rob moves.  I think a winning combo might be the ZMA with Rob's DAC.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 08/16/16 at 00:47:33

I wish that I was a hour closer to the big city, it sounds like a good time at your meetings.
Someone with good ears needs to listen to my speakers and tell me what they hear. Or maybe not, I might come up pretty dissipointed when my speakers are listened in the harsh light of good ears!

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 08/16/16 at 01:55:17

Well it was a bit of a roller coaster. It went from "please stop" to "that's the best I have ever heard that song."  You just gotta hang on.  

With somebody more impartial you can test a bunch of stuff pretty quickly.  It helps that we hear similarly.

I had been screwing around with that crossover point for 7 months.  Now I'm confident that it's set.  Also with Rob and Eric both saying that upper bass wasn't there I knew I had to do something.  I remembered maddog mentioning phase in a post and then Eric mentioned it so I said what the hell.

The bottom line is things sound better and it was fun tweaking despite being told "my kid" is ugly a few times.  

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Dave1210 on 08/18/16 at 14:21:42

Pal...you have piqued my interest, ZMA + PureAudio.  I assume the glare is coming from the typical high frequency response of single driver speakers...

I believe PAP is using a filter to tame this, but that filter might not be as transparent as the tone controls on the Torii.

Thoughts?

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 08/18/16 at 15:44:25

A few thoughts Dave...

Yes, the typical single driver glare.  I think the formula for the TB 1808/15a xover is out there on the web.  For the augie, you'd still need to bi-amp due to efficiency differences I think, so it would probably require a different cap/resistor (maybe combo) on the 1808.

The Torri helps with the glare, but its a fine line between taming it and deadening the sound.  I continue to experiment with that, tubes and EQ in Audirvana.

Running the augies out of phase provides for better bass coherency and solves the issue I pointed out earlier in the thread where I was not getting the best imaging when running the augies.   I was just working on crossover to fix, but the combo of phase/crossover has really done the job and tightened up the bass.

One big difference Eric noted between the OBs and his 944s was the amount of air those big 15" drivers move.   The songs he tended to say "that's the best I've heard it" were big, air movers.  Rob has the trios with two augies that really pound you.  When I was at his house last time, I uncontrollably guffawed when the big/bass heavy passages played.

I have been bored dead with my music lately, but the prat I get now with the better mating of the drivers left me listening for 4 hours the other night - to the same stuff, but taping my toes and digging it all over again.

I mentioned this earlier, but Eric also enjoyed rock on these speakers.  Not exactly a known OB strength, if I remember my research.  Still, AC/DC all night long and one other song I don't remember sounded really good.  Good instrument separation.  Kick drum chest impact.  Rock!

The ZMA was fuller, more detailed and really changed the sound and the imaging of the speakers.  I loved what it brought to the table, but made me also think that the speakers produced too much pressure for my 16X12 room.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Dave1210 on 08/18/16 at 16:25:27

Pal...I run a sub with my 944's.  The past few days, as I have been trying to troubleshoot my noise issue, I haven't had the sub in the signal path and I really missed it.  The fullness, solidity and frequency balance it provides is important to me.  It won't move anywhere near as much air as four 15's, but I don't think I would be happy without it in my current space.  

In my system/room, the CKC is not enough with the 944's.  I enjoyed having the CKC in the system the past day, but I missed the more detailed and effortless presentation of the ZMA.  

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 08/18/16 at 17:26:42

I never had good luck with a sub, but I never had a good one to experiment with.  That's what lead to one augie, then one augie became two, then two augies became duo's with the 1808's, now I am thinking about trios.  Soon I will be sitting in a little 5'X5' space with speakers all around me in a musical stupor ;D

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Dave1210 on 08/18/16 at 22:06:08

I should get some Augie's just to experiment.  When I was talking with Randy at his shop he said that you get a better sense of space in the recording with multiple OB subs (vs. one summed to mono).  That said, he preferred one vs. two for tightness and control.  

I only have one sub...two was outside of my budget (and I wasn't even sure I would like having a sub at all).  That said, when you start rocking out with 2X Trio Augie 15's, that adds up too (in more ways than one)...

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 08/18/16 at 22:17:16

Yeah, it all adds up.  I got them before he had to increase the price.  Maybe $440 shipped?

I still intend to get a single 15a to run on my second system summed to mono to see how it sounds.  I have a baffle cut from my early experiments with the augie that I am pretty sure I could use.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Dave1210 on 08/18/16 at 22:29:43

4 Augies ($240 each) and a plate amp or two ($225 each) isn't completely unreasonable for a killer stereo sub setup.

Can you drive all 4-6 Augies with one amp or do you need two?  How are they wired and what's the impedance the amp sees?

Also...I'd be curious what El Presidente thinks about a duo of OB's providing bass reinforcement in his 944 system.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 08/19/16 at 00:18:01

Rob drives his 4 augies with two plate amps.  I am using the crown 1000 amp.  It's more than enough for two augies.  You might go up to a 1500 for 4.

I am surprised that el presidente has not chimed in.  A lot on his plate these days.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 08/19/16 at 00:57:09

I run all 4 of my 15"Alpha's directly out of my Torii. No problem with bass in my room!

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 08/19/16 at 11:52:12

I have run the augies off the Torii as well and it didn't sound like the bass was soft or anything.

But the Augies are 89db and the 15a is 98db or so, so they mate with the 1808 better.

I checked parts express.  They have like 10 versions of the 15a now.  Varying sensitivity and QTS.  Looks like the basic unit people use in OBs is down to $59.  


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 08/19/16 at 17:12:40

I have been eyeballing some plate amps to integrate into my OB's.
That might be the move to push them over the top.
I live by the motto of "If a little is good, too much is just right"!

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by maddog07 on 08/19/16 at 23:37:05

I run two Augie's in parallel in each Trio baffle, i.e. 4-ohm load per channel - four Augie's total.  I drive them with a Crown XLS-2500.  The "signal present" light on the Crown "flickers" off and on at normal listening levels.  When the signal present light is on solid, and the -20 light is flickering - things are starting to get serious.  And I run the Crown's input attenuators at only about 70% of wide-open to boot.  Only once or twice have I endured the -20 light on solid.  At this point, my house was being lifted off the foundation with each thud of a kick drum.  I am using Audio Nirvana wide-banders in the middle spot of my Trio's driven directly, full-range(no xover high pass) by my Torii III.  If there is a better amp for wide-banders than the Tori III - I haven't heard it yet.  The treble shunt on the III allows you to really dial-in the rising frequency response of nearly all wide-banders to "just right".  Not to mention the Torii's output impedance is complimentary to the typical wide-banders impedance in the 40-60hz range, which seems to really put some nice flesh-on-the-bones weight to the music.
I am more "satisfied" with my systems sound now, than ever before in nearly 40 years of actually pursuing this hobby.  It has/is taking a long time for my "what if I try this" cognitive dissonance to go away though.  I guess that's why I have six different sets of speakers, and working on #7.  But with each cable, amp, speaker combo I try - so far, I have come back to the OB's with Augie's and wide-banders driven by my Torii III.  Sooner or later I just know my brain will finally "accept" what my ears are hearing!!!
Yes... messing around with the xover point, phase, etc. is essential to getting this OB combo dialed-in.  But boy when you do - hang on, cause the sound is going to blow your mind.  

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 08/20/16 at 00:43:56

I knew it was only a matter of time before "the dog" weighed in.  

You have me thinking about both doubling up the augies per side and trying an AN wide bander.  Maybe for Christmas.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 08/22/16 at 18:51:57

Sorry for chiming in so late - I just have a lot going on lately, and not much of it good  unfortunately.

Anyhow - no, I don't care for OBs

Yes, we did get Pals setup tweaked a little better (OK, a lot better). I really love how effective we are when we just say the first thing that comes to mind - it's usually correct. I learned that from Steve; for the longest time I would keep my thoughts to myself for fear of offending the gear owner (or in Steve's case the gracious builder), but I've listened and learned.

I don't think Pal gives himself enough credit for how good his ear is - I'm constantly impressed with how he takes my suggestions and runs with them and on my next visit the sound is pretty stunning.

So as I said, I don't care for OBs too much - and Pal's setup is OB, *and* full range drive with the full range driver shout. The ZMA was absolutely stunning, and I kept saying "I'm so glad I got this amp" - I just can't love those speakers. The sound was very shallow to me...for those of you who shoot any style of SLR camera where you can adjust the aperture - the OB sound in  this room sounded like it was focused only 4' deep but spread wide and tall; just a really shallow plain of focus. The high frequency didn't have the extension and spacial cues that ProgRob's setup has (which I truly love) but the bass was nice once we got it dialed in and got the crossover in this setups sweet spot. I was honestly blown away by how good anything Rock sounded - I've been listening to AC/DC for 30 years, and was stunned at the instrument separation and clarity, all without the piled-on congestion I'm used to hearing from rock albums. Every guitar had its space carved out, the vocals weren't buried behind instruments, and the drums were visceral and punchy. PRAT all over the place once we got the bass sorted out...before we figured that out, it was a lumpy, disjointed mess that irritated me and made me want to track-hop around "looking for something better". Afterwards, it was a real room filling sound.

What I miss is the spacial cues that traditional boxy speakers give you, at least in Tom's well setup room. Yes the OBs filled the room with sound tall and wide, but I didn't feel like I could hear the room the music was recorded in; I told Tom it sounded like I was in the Lobby of venue and they left the double doors open - I could hear everything perfectly, I just wasn't "in the room" with the music. Part of why I enjoy going to Tom's place so much is he's got the room setup way, way better than I can setup any room in my house - I will never get that quality of sound without gutting a room and starting from the studs, or at least bare walls out, dedicated audio room - golden ratio and all. Till then, I live vicariously through Palomino's room.

Now that I've bashed his new child(speaker) to death, I will say he does a beautiful build. I'm picky and his work was pleasing to look at and well thought out - I would have thought they were store bought "boutique" builds if I didn't know Tom's build style.


So I brought my ZMA back home and eventually set it up and listened a bit. (shrug) - I realized how loud those OBs are - I love my clarity, especially with the PS Audio Bridge II on my Direct Stream DAC being fed by Roon - but I miss his wonderful little basement listening room.




Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 08/22/16 at 22:31:02

Palomino's defense of his child!

I'll have to bring my DIY monoliths back to the room for comparison, but I don't sense the shallow soundstage that Eric heard?    This is the deepest soundstage I can remember having.  I did have to move the OBs out at least 4' from the back wall to get that.

I agree with the assessment of flat when I had the oversampling going in Audirvana, but that was temporary.  Once we switched it back to no oversampling, I don't agree with that assessment.  I did hear the lobby effect on some, but not all songs.  I don't recall if I heard it once I went back to NOS.  Separation of instruments we agree on.  The tweaks tightened up the bass, brought more life to the upper bass and definitely improved the Prat.

My issue has always been the shout because generally speaking, everything else is better than the Monos.  I am pretty close on taming that to my satisfaction.


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by maddog07 on 08/24/16 at 00:03:13

almost ALL speakers sound better pulled out away from the wall behind them - at least to a point.  With OB's (or any bi or dipole) this is "a requirement" - they have to be able to breath.  If you have a small room, or need to put your speakers close to the wall behind them - OB is probably not the way to go.  
My OB's are 6 ft. out away from the wall.  My experience with "recording room" sound has been the opposite of LR's.  I think this is mostly a crossover-less thing, not necessarily just an OB thing, but I can hear reverberations and slap-echos from the recording studio that's buried in recordings that I've heard 100's of times before and never heard until I was crossover-less and OB.  
After listening almost exclusively to box-less speakers for the last 3 years... there are very, very few box speakers that I can't immediately hear/detect "the box" coloring the sound.  That said, I discovered an audible resonance in the back braces of my OB's awhile back too, that I had to address with additional bracing/mass.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Matchstikman on 08/24/16 at 00:49:21

That's interesting.  I've looked at the OBs online and also sold by Decware but I just don't have the room.  As it is, my system is setup in the most wrong way possible.  I mean, everything I could possibly do wrong I've done.  I need to take a picture of it to show you guys.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 08/24/16 at 01:09:33

I double checked and I am 5' from the back wall.  

Maddog is your soundstage primarily behind the speakers?  Mine is and could be what Raven was having some issues with.  But the depth of the soundstage behind that is big.

I will say it took some time for me to adjust to where the soundstage is placed.  

I am not sure I can go back to boxed speakers.  It takes me some time to get used to them in my cottage setup.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Rich on 08/24/16 at 06:40:38

I'm using OB's in a room that is only 9' wide and 12' deep.  The speakers are 30" from the front wall with QRD defusers behind them.  My listening chair is about 8" from the back wall with acoustic panel absorbers behind it.  The system has a very nice sound stage that sounds much wider and deeper then the speaker placement.  I think OB's can be a very good choice for small room near field listening, as long as the room is treated.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 08/24/16 at 12:26:14

Well I think I figured it out last night.

I think Eric heard a pressed back and flat soundstage because of where his head was positioned.  In general, he sat in the listening chair and I was behind him in another chair.

Last night I noticed that the listening chair was out of position.  At least a foot back.  I moved the chair up and got a great 3D soundstage.  I moved it back and well, not so much.  I went to where I was sitting and it was better again but not great.

I didn't think I had room nulls with the OBs.  I definitely did with box speakers. Huge nulls.  Anyway I suspect there is a front to back sweet spot for the soundstage just as there is for the sides to side for imaging.

I'll keep testing.  I may even break out the mike to see if I can measure it.  I definitely could with my box speakers.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 08/24/16 at 16:45:43

I double checked it this morning.  It's not a null per se because it does not impact volume.  Bass response maybe.

But there is definitely a fore and aft sweet spot in addition to left/right for imaging and soundstage.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 08/24/16 at 16:47:01

Rich, what OBs are you running?

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Dave1210 on 08/25/16 at 01:34:48

Pal...was the soundstage with your box speakers both in front and behind the speakers?  For example, the singer could be reach out and touch, and the rest of the instruments playing in spaces at different levels of depth and height in relation to the singer?

Whereas with the OB's, the entire soundstage sits behind the speakers?

I need to experiment a little with my listening position to see if the soundstage is as sensitive.  I originally optimized my listening position for clarity and I ended up with a seating position a little closer than equilateral.  I think it may be time to revisit...  

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Rich on 08/25/16 at 02:37:43

Pal, My OB's are home made using Wild Burro Audio Betsy's, the same ones Randy uses.  The woofers are 10" from MCM.  You can see pictures in this tread.   http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1461890060/0 which is in the user picture forum and named My Zen Room.  My amp is a Decware SE84UFO2.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 08/25/16 at 14:28:30

Dave,
I messed around with it last night and like a lot of things in audio, it seems like there is a balancing point.  

The way I am thinking about it is when the chair is too far away from the speakers, it’s like looking a long distance at a group of people.  They all seem to be on the same plain.  As you move closer, they separate and have more perceptible distance side to side and front to back.  Move too close and you crowd some of them.

I think this is true of any speaker, not just OBs, but my question about where the soundstage is placed to  Maddog was more about helping me focus my set-up properly.  Eric’s photography analogy was a good one.

The closer I get to the optimum spot, the more the soundstage reaches out to me.  The further back, the flatter and further back the soundstage gets.  I am not sure I am at optimal now, but I run about a 7’2” equilateral triangle.  

On some songs, I am crowding certain musicians on the left or right.  But those songs tend to have instrument placement that is more centered on the driver than others.  But on big soundstage songs, I am pretty immersed in the soundstage without that crowding.  Its really captivating and I get those recording room cues that both Raven and Maddog talked about.

I remember Randy saying that with the Betsy’s you had to be pretty far back to get that sensation.  But Rich reports he’s running Betsy’s in an almost near field setup so there may be multiple zones where that phenomenon can happen.

As I have said throughout this thread, OBs are not for the faint at heart, but for me there has been great payoffs.  I haven't read about anyone else pairing 1808's to Augies so I am discovering this on my own.

Randy’s OBs may be more forgiving than mine.  I still plan to experiment with some Betsy’s because its an easy switch for me the way I built these speakers.  Maddog also has me intrigued with the AN drivers, but that’s a more expensive experiment.

Finally Dave, if you are running Audirvana, I would encourage you to try out the DSD encoding.  I have not been too big a fan of DSD recordings, but redbook to DSD, even iTunes downloads to DSD is pretty captivating.  It also seems to smooth the music and help with the fullrange shout.   It reminds me of what the pills did to the sound.

It’s not without its glitches but most of that is due to my old mac mini processor, but 95% of the time its working great.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 08/25/16 at 21:27:10


That Redbook to DSD sounds interesting - it's the basis for how the PS Audio DirectStream DAC works, turning everything to DSD and then multiplying everything by 20X or something like that - then doing any tweaking (volume etc) at those huge math numbers. I think it allows for more natural smoothing of what's already there...whereas oversampling to me feels like it's smoothing while adding harmonic jaggies that harsh my mellow.  ;)

As for the sweetspot and "dropouts" - all rooms will have them, except maybe an anechoic chamber. It might not be noticeable big (volume) dropouts and hotspots like low frequency would produce, but there are all sorts of canceling and comb filtering and other badness going on. Probably more so with Open Baffles because you have wave fronts from both sides of the driver to contend with.  Add to that, you have two drivers on one baffle, they'd have their own comb filtering where the waves intermingle between the baffle and your seating position. Plus the waves from left speaker to right speaker. Lots and lots of reasons (waves/reflections) for audio cues and apparent location of soundstage/instruments to get pushed around.

I just call them as I see them - you're the clever one moving sound treatment and seating position around to make it sound better than "good".

IMHO - with Open Baffles you now need *even more* diffusers to widen the sweet spot and localize the sound. Speaking of which, I'm hoping to spend some time in the garage this weekend mounting my fleet of styro diffusers to panels to group them and more easily suspend them....maybe it's time we put some of my diffusers on your ceiling...remember that idea popped into my head while we were listening? I'm thinking my audio-intuition was telling me something about your room.  ;)

I'm still thinking about folded horns and single drivers - but I still fear the shout - if I were to go single driver, I'd probably go something all bendy like this:




Oh, one last thing - I really like that Crown with the built in crossover - IMHO, if I were to do supplement a full range driver setup with subs, I would do two small subs using an amp like that, and the subs would be placed directly to the left and right of the seating position. I've found (and other's measurements have shown) that a dual sub setup with the drivers around the middle of the room give more even bass response at the main listening position.

I have so many ideas - I just need a dedicated listening room - having the redhead move in with me really nixed that completely. I may have to wait till I move to a nicer/bigger house.  



Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 08/25/16 at 22:10:39

Or maybe a compact spiral horn....


http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/cornu/cornu.html



Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 08/25/16 at 22:12:19

Well, you'll have to come back and see if you agree what I am hearing is better.

The guys who are touting the DSD conversion have DACs that can go to 128 and above, but I think its a lot smoother with 64.  

I am thinking about doing a wall of diffusers from Styrofoam.  Basically make my whole front wall a QRD.  Darrell Hawthorne sent me a how-to in an email I have yet to dig out.  It's using those 2" foam insulation panels like you experimented with before.  He basically cuts them with a table saw though instead of a hot wire cutter.  Messy but less work.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 08/25/16 at 22:13:20

I followed that spiral horn thread for a while.  Interesting.  When I was following it, they were making them out of scored foam board!

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 08/26/16 at 19:54:30

I'm working in the garage this weekend - I'll see if I can clear of the table saw and maybe finish up some of my diffuser projects as well.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 08/30/16 at 17:56:10


Well, I got the table saw cleared off, but had a minor accident with some chemicals that got spilled and I got spashed in the eyes with. Ugh. Maybe I'll cut some materials this next weekend, and we can have another CDApS meet.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by maddog07 on 08/31/16 at 00:14:12

Pal.... soundstage position and depth.... it has been my experience that moving any speaker out away from the wall will move the entire soundstage "rearward" and add depth - to a point.  And more so with some recordings than with others.

Think about how a performance is recorded.. at least a minimally mic'd one where the engineer attempted to capture a "realistic" facsimile of the performance (this does not apply universally to close-mic'd events if there was a mic stuck in front of every instrument and multi-tracked to later be mixed down and mucked with).

If you go to a concert, you set out in front of the performers.  the Performers are "usually" on a stage, slightly higher than you, and always in front of you.  The main microphones will be in front of the performers, usually with some hanging from above to capture reverb, ambiance, room acoustic, etc.  Usually the mixer/producer will use these tracks to add ambiance in varying degrees to a recording depending on how the capture from the main mic's turns out.  But the main microphones are "between" you and the performers - This Is A Key Point.  In our playback system, ideally we want our speakers to take the place of the microphones where the recording was made.  This means, that for the most part, the entire image illusion should be "behind" the front plane of the speakers(microphones)......  think about it!
If the reproduced image is in front of the speakers, then this would imply that the performers were nearly in our lap if we were there when a performance was recorded - not very likely.  Even studio recordings, of high quality, where the recordist was trying to capture "the event", the illusion of the performers should usually be "behind" the speakers, because if you had been there when it was recorded, the performers would likely have been in front of you and the microphones would have been in front of the performers and between you and the performers.

One of the best examples I can think of, off the top of my head, where information about the actual recording venue and how the performers and recording was setup is available(you can view it), is the Cowboy Junkies Trinity Sessions, and Trinity revisited.  If you play this music on your system, and the illusion of the performers are "in front" of your speakers... then you can rest assured that your system is not "accurately" portraying the recorded event as captured on the CD/LP/wav file, etc.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 08/31/16 at 21:29:34

Thanks Maddog.  I think we are on the same page in terms of where we want the soundstage to be.

But I wasn't very clear in my question and I posed that question prior to figuring out what was going on.

Where Eric's head was positioned, it was too far back (I have one of those Ikea chairs that move easily).  It was a least a foot to two feet deeper than my typical listening position.  The soundstage was behind the speakers, but compressed.  It all seemed to be hugging the back wall.

Once the chair was adjusted to form more of an equilateral triangle with the speakers, it all laid out much more naturally.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by TubeNube on 09/06/16 at 01:27:00

Hey Pal,
I was looking at info on QRD Diffusers, and I ran across these pictures. I remembered what you said about making your front wall all diffusers, so here you go.
Randy

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by TubeNube on 09/06/16 at 01:29:03

Bummer. Only one of the pics showed up. Here's the other one.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 09/06/16 at 12:12:21

Thanks for the photos.

I found Darrel's recipe.  It's 2" rigid insulation panels cut to various depths in a prime sequence with fins made of Masonite.  You can cut using a table saw.  Evidently using a table saw is easy but pretty messy cutting the insulation. Then paint.

If my measurements are correct I could do my front wall for around $200.  

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by TubeNube on 09/07/16 at 05:05:43

Pal,
Definitely like the idea of being able to do a whole wall for $200, but
still can't quite envision how your diffusers will look. Post pics if you end up making them, so I get the idea.
Thanks, Randy

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 09/07/16 at 12:20:01

Here is Darrell Hawthorne's room:

http://www.hawthorneaudio.us/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=4641&start=45

He has another treatment at the center of his room but the sides have the qrd's.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by TubeNube on 09/08/16 at 07:00:12

YOWZA! I've had audio room envy before, but that room is beautiful in its simplicity. The diffusers look different than I thought that they would, but if they get the job done, all the better. They really blend in - it helps that they did a good job with the crown moulding @ the ceiling. Anyway, I've felt for a couple of years now that I have plenty of gear to get the sound that I want - I'm even close to it now with no treatment, but my rooms are holding me back. When I get to a better space, I'll concentrate on room treatments. If ProggRob makes it out here (WA state), I'm betting that he will put some energy into making a good, treated listening room in his new digs. Anyway, keep us posted on your progress.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 09/09/16 at 19:09:14

I still feel the poly-cylinder is just a quick and dirty "diffuser". It really does nothing in the "time domain" and simply scatters the sound. I think you could do so much better with your slat-wall diffusers, the deeper the better.

Or if you want to stick with the styro and dividers, I'd do a nice big Prime 29 using the 2" insulation. But I'm still a firm believer in the sound waves picking up the tone of what they bounce off of, and I'm worried the styro-sound might accentuate your single driver shout.

But what do I know.  ;)  (shrug)


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 09/09/16 at 19:14:15

Not sure why he went that route in the middle.  Here is how he described it:

The phantom center image area features an elliptical membrane diffuser.  I made that from some inexpensive paneling bowed and snapped into place.  It’s 12” deep in the center.  I filled the cavity with fiberglass insulation. This style of diffuser/absorber works great and also look good in the center area!  Lots of depth illusion.

I want to do what he has on his side walls/front corners to the entire front of my room.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 09/09/16 at 19:17:48

BTW, I saw a home made hot wire cutter on ebay that was made of copper pipe that I think I could build.  

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 09/10/16 at 07:43:30

Lets do it!


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 09/23/16 at 21:09:46

I had this nice long post typed out, and somehow lost it when I went to post.

Short version - I'm going to chime in on Pal's thread rather than start my own for now, since our Audio Projects are often paralleled, if not entwined.

I'm getting back to my never ending (and never finished) diffuser designing and building. I seem to spend more time making room in the garage to work, then adjusting/tuning tools and building jigs than actual building of anything!

To start, I took a pair of CNC Hot-Wire cut Styro diffusers and framed them up tightly in a poplar box. It's only 6" deep as that's what I was able to get inexpensively. I was originally planning on making them 8" boxes and lining the back with acoustic blankets recovered from my 15 year old CWAL bass absorbers I recently retired....but that extra couple inches added quite a bit of cost and I'm pretty damn broke right now, trying to work with what I have around rather than buy more wood if I can.  I'm a believer in that sound reflecting off an object takes some of it's sound with it. Sound bouncing off glass has a high frequency enhancement that I don't care for, and something similar with Styrofoam diffusers.

That said, these are some of the diffusers that I dragged out to Palomino's listening room as well as ProgRobs listening room, where we had some amazing CDApS listening sessions where simply placing these styro diffusers in key places aided in PRaT and made the music really *involving*.  I employed a lesson I learned from Steve, where you don't simply listen to the music, but watch the body language of the listeners - and it was clear how much involving the music was with just these four lightweight panels leaned up against the walls.

So I bound them together in this frame in hopes of using them more effectively either in my "listening room"/theater and/or my spare bedroom which has become sort of a home office. I figure my 18 year old original Zen amp, some efficient speakers, and walls covered in diffusers might make computer building and whatnot more enjoyable.



So much for this being a short post.

More pics of diffuser projects to come. My next one, an all poplar 24" X 24" X 6" QRD is coming along nicely. I'm going to slowly build up to my ultimate design which will be these HUGELY complex QRD diffusers that will help scatter and diffuse between 350Hz and 6880Hz.

The more I build, the more I appreciate how well thought out the Decware diffusers are. They do exactly what they need, at a great price, and shippable package.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 09/23/16 at 21:13:57

+1 on the Decware diffusers.

I am a masochist, so I build.  But its pretty tempting to just buy an 8 pack or so of those.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 09/24/16 at 02:44:15

Lonely Raven, A couple of observations:
Don't lay your grinding wheels horizontal like that, you are inviting cracks.
Your reloading bench is a mess, organize it up please! The brass needs to be handled carefully.
You really need to put the door on your fuse box. Haven't you watched the videos of fireballs from exposed fuse boxes. I have to test out twice a year on that stuff and I don't even plug a light into the wall at work.
A clean and organized shop is a safe and efficient shop. Put things back where you got it from and it will be there when you need it again.
Oh yeah, your box sound catcher thingy is kind of cool in a mad scientist way.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Corey on 09/24/16 at 05:24:10

Raven,

You wrote: "...recovered from my 15 year old CWAL bass absorbers I recently retired..."


CWALS do not ever get retired.  Bass traps are the most important treatment in a room.  Bass is the foundation of the music.

I agree, clean up your shop buddy!


Corey

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Jeff1 on 09/24/16 at 13:16:20

Are those the PI Audio diffusers? I tried ordering a pair since the price was budget minded but after several emails and a few phone calls I have still not been able to place an order. I ordered the Buss easy enough but the other guy handling the diffusers seems not to be interested in selling product or something. May be the time for DIY.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 09/25/16 at 23:59:46

Lonely Raven, A couple of observations:
Don't lay your grinding wheels horizontal like that, you are inviting cracks.
Your reloading bench is a mess, organize it up please! The brass needs to be handled carefully.
You really need to put the door on your fuse box. Haven't you watched the videos of fireballs from exposed fuse boxes. I have to test out twice a year on that stuff and I don't even plug a light into the wall at work.
A clean and organized shop is a safe and efficient shop. Put things back where you got it from and it will be there when you need it again.
Oh yeah, your box sound catcher thingy is kind of cool in a mad scientist way.

I should have figured the background would be picked through...the guys in my motorcycle forum do the same thing. The grage/shop isn't as bad as it looks. The Reloading bench is actually well organized, what you're seeing is a rollaway table parked between the table saw and reloading bench, piled up with boxes and gear...I'm trying to re-organize my garage so I can get some projects done, but every time I start working on the garage, another house project comes up and everything gets pushed aside to make room for some current project.

The grinding wheel is actually a brass and stone lamp I'm restoring - pretty cool looking...now if I can just figure out how to disassemble it so I can rewire it, install new sockets, and build some sort of steampunky cage for the vintage style edison bulbs I picked out. I love LED lighting, but I've been rebuilding lamps and using edison bulbs while wiring in Z-wave controllers so I can dimmer control lamps from my phone. (too many hobbies I know).

I'm really hoping I have no more drama this winter - I'd really love to get the shop organized and efficient, as you say.  :)

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 09/26/16 at 00:15:29

"Are those the PI Audio diffusers? I tried ordering a pair since the price was budget minded but after several emails and a few phone calls I have still not been able to place an order. I ordered the Buss easy enough but the other guy handling the diffusers seems not to be interested in selling product or something. May be the time for DIY."

I think that's the brand. I like them a lot, but they were a little weird to deal with. For a quick fix I like them, but I still feel a well built QRD does more for your sound since it adds some time delay to your reflected sound.

When I can afford it, I'm going to frame up the other pair and get them prepped for deployment somewhere in the house. My latest project is a fun little nested diffuser I designed and built using some poplar trim and cut-offs.

I'd like to share images,  but this Amazon Prime Photo storage seems kinda sketchy. I maybe need to go back to my old photo-storage or find another.  

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 09/27/16 at 18:11:53


I'm too impatient to deal with Amazon Prime Photo and figuring out how to use the photos in forums...it seems they assume everyone only uses FB and Twitter... Let's see if I can share these images from FB

So Here's the two devices I've finished so far. The little one is a Prime 7 QRD (I actually built 8 wells because I had the materials) six inches deep, that cost me about $50 to build from scratch.  These aren't too bad to build at this size, it's when I scale up to 2' X 4' that fins get wobbly and spacing gets wonky...especially since I want to build a QRD 19 or 29 with 1" fins and at least 12" deep.





Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lon on 10/05/16 at 23:21:54

Just placed an order for the new PS Audio DirectStream Memory player, as a beta tester. Excited!

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Matchstikman on 10/05/16 at 23:32:36

I've been checking these out:

http://www.waveformsusa.com/

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 10/06/16 at 02:18:35


I'm *really* skeptical of their claims. I see nothing "diffusion" about these, though they say they diffuse to 16Hkz. They also say (the larger devices) they are good down to 52hz.  It sounds like they are stretching the truth quite a bit.

Do they have measurements from an independent lab?

I'm sure they do *something*, hell, I could take pipe insulation and wrap it in plastic, then in cloth and make some decent absorbers for literally 1/5th to 1/8th the price of these.

Sorry, I don't mean to poo-poo them, but I see too many red flags with these devices.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Matchstikman on 10/06/16 at 03:33:10

Lonely, poo-poo all you want.  I found these online while searching out the ASC stuff.

A few years ago I went down to Home Depot and bought a couple bags of R9 (well, R-something), wrapped it in burlap, and stuck it in the corner.  It wasn't too scientific but it did the job.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 10/06/16 at 06:19:10

While not as pretty, I'm betting it probably worked better than these listed above.


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Matchstikman on 10/06/16 at 14:37:43

Lonely, I'm amazed no-one has created some nice burlap bag covers for R9 insulation.  You know, so they look nice.  You buy a bag, put the cover on and stick it in your corner.  I'd buy one.  Of course, being audiophile grade burlap it would probably price around $1500 per cover.

I've always wanted some of those high-end ASC traps.  The nice ones that are built to look like Roman pillars.  I've seen those setup and they do a nice job and they look very swanky.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Matchstikman on 10/06/16 at 16:32:31

Lonely, check this out:

http://www.acousticsciences.com/products/price-lists

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Matchstikman on 10/06/16 at 17:56:29

Lonely, one more site to consider.  I like these:

http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-soffit-bass-trap/

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 10/06/16 at 19:01:02

GIK makes good stuff...I've spoken with them many times in the various studio and sound forums. They seem to have a good grasp of what works.

Some of the ASC stuff is good (and just like every other broadband absorber made from insulation).

Instead of R9, you'll get more impact in less space with a "rigid" fiberglass panel. This is what most of the companies like GIK and ASC make their broadband absorber panels out of. You can also find stores that sell suede (or some other material) "socks" that you can slide over the panels yourself instead of paying ASC $150 for the same. I typically take these panels and make poplar frames around them, then wrap and staple cloth over them....I prefer the nice sharp corners of the wood frames.

http://www.acoustimac.com/oc7032

If you can find an insulation warehouse that sells to the public, you can also get the big pipe insulation that the tube traps are made from. Again, it's just rigid insulation wrapped in cloth. The ones that claim "diffusion" just wrap the rigid fiberglass in plastic or craft paper so it reflects high frequency, then wrap it in a nice cloth like Guilford of Maine (though I'm partial to Joanne fabrics 50% off coupons LOL)

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 10/06/16 at 19:08:13


A quick google - pipe insulation looks like this:



The stuff I bought to play with was just raw ridged insulation with no wrapping. It works OK. But in all honesty, it really takes A LOT of absorbers to make a decent impact on a room. (same with diffusers as well).  To completely change a rooms response, I've read it takes 25% of the wall and ceiling space to make a considerable change (again, same for diffusers).

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 10/06/16 at 19:24:11

One last thing, and I'll let this drop (unless you have some questions I could try to answer).

Here is why I say I'm very skeptical of the numbers posted on these absorbers, especially the very low numbers like where they say the traps work down to 52hz or 54hz.

Here is how the traps work:  Like the diffusers, the traps are taking advantage of the fact that you can have an effect on a frequency by designing for/attacking it's *quarter* wavelength. (thankfully). So, a 55Hz tone has a wavelength of 20.46 FEET. Because we can have an effect on this frequencies *quarter* wavelength, we only have to design something to work at 5.11 feet. What I'm saying is, we *don't* need 20 foot absorbers...but we do need 5 foot absorbers.

So I'm terribly skeptical that a 16" diameter tube trap placed in a corner is going to have a rolloff at 40Hz like ASC says, or have a frequency range of 52Hz to 16khz like that other brand.

Now, what we can do though, is take these tubes or panels and place them in corners where the bass puddles up. That helps some, but it takes a crapload of material to make a big difference at lower frequencies. To really get the full effect of the panels, you'd have to be that 5.11 feet from the wall(!). Suddenly your 19' X 25' room is a lot smaller! LOL

I think what they are doing is like what the homeopathic "medicine" folks do. They say this natural, organic, straight from nature product works on your diabetes or whatever...well sure, the dingleberries from a free range all hormone free rabid badger might help your diabus by 1-3%, but real insulin shots (SCIENCE!) are 100% effective. So these tube trap guys can say the devices work down to 52Hz or whatever, but if you saw actual lab measurements it has like a 2% change. So you would need so many of them in your room to actually make an impact at 52Hz, that you'd have to listen from outside. (shrug)

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Matchstikman on 10/06/16 at 20:49:28

Lonely, you make interesting points.  I don't know enough to say this or that about it.  I do know that if I stick my head in a corner of my room while music is on I can hear the bass overload so there is that.  I'm thinking something besides nothing would do some help.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Jeff1 on 10/07/16 at 02:59:12

I took a look at that waveform site. I does list diameters and effective frequencies but the percentages at the frequencies are not noted. So at the lowest end it may be say 10 or 20% effective. With that said it could be all that is needed depending on speaker placement and sitting position. I can say in my room 2 14" dia and 2 20" dia work wonderfully. My room is about 10' x 18'. My mains are closer to the near wall and my sitting position with my sub between the mains which almost puts it center of the room. In a dedicated listening room I don't believe a sub should be placed in a corner or against a wall because that placement I think has as much to do with creating bass problems on ar with no treatment at all. By the way the room construction does make a difference ie cement wall and floor vs stud and drywall. Building traps is a much less expensive way to get results. I think I read a will back about a burlap bad of insulation which was amusing but I would think it would have a certain amount of usefulness and yes there is acoustic burlap Sukacloth which i can sell you..lol

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Jeff1 on 10/07/16 at 03:01:39

Sorry for the gramer and spellink I was typmg fast/ lol

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 10/12/16 at 14:52:46

Well, the Palomino Audio Project continues.  I am still learning as I go along.  I took the OBs to the fest and played them, but not many people heard them because I had them running before breakfast on Saturday.  I did get some favorable comments, but overall I have to say I didn’t like everything I heard.  

Here is some of what I learned.

1. The augies produced crisp clear bass with impact.  Song emphasizing bass impact did the best.    Comparing them to the imperials, they did not go as low and I’d have to give the edge in bass musicality to the Imperials.  If you have the space and like low tuneful articulate bass, Imperials are amazing.  You feel the imperials resonating in your chest.  The augies hit you in the chest.

2. The 3 watt zen monos didn’t have enough giddyup to run the augies, even though they were in a bi-amped configuration.  This was even with the crown amp all the way up (no attenuation).  The ZMA drove them with authority and I was able to really pressurize the room.  I was able to play them louder than at home because Steve’s room eats bass for breakfast.

3. Toe in matters a lot in terms of how much beaming you get out of these speakers.  Generally less is better.  We started out with them pointed directly at the listening position and that was too harsh on the source/amp configurations we ran them in.

4. Seating position matters as well.  Too far back and you are more in line with the drivers and results described above occur and as I discovered in the Lonely Raven CDApS session, it hurts soundstage.

5. I came away with the impression that all single drivers need treble control, no matter the toe in, seating position.  Especially with digital sources.  I greatly missed the DSD upsampling on my Mac Mini.

6. From a clarity and detail standpoint, the Tang Band W8 1808 is a fine quality driver, but not very forgiving.  With the source and amp configurations we tried, I give the nod in pure musicality and engagement to Randy’s Betsy baffles.  So much so that I did not want to put my speakers back in the rotation later in the day.  I will probably pick up a pair of those drivers (they are backordered several months).  I don’t know that I would want them for all listening, but they cover a lot of bases for me on low volume intimate music.  This PAP OB design does foster relatively easy switching in and out of the main driver which is nice.

So while I was critical here of my OBs, I certainly haven’t given up on them.  They just need the right source/amp to sound their best.  I think I am close to that with the DSD up-sampling and the Torii III with treble shunt.  

After the Lonely Raven CDApS session, I have been working on room treatment placement in order to maximize the “sense of the room / you are there” factor.  Last night I stumbled on to something.

I started by putting 8 diffusers in the front of the room and left two at the first reflection points and my 5 fractal diffusers on the back wall.  No improvement and maybe it took away from the effect.  Then I put diffusers in the primary and secondary reflection points.  Better, but still not there.

Then on a whim, I put two diffusers at the primary reflection point BEHIND the OBs.  I think that made the whole room fill up more and gave me the best immersion I’ve had.  I liked it so much I stopped screwing with it and just listened.  

I listened this morning to see if I was imagining it and it was still there.  I will probably check it out again tonight and use the mirror trick to make sure I have them positioned correctly.  Maybe experiment with putting them at the secondary reflection point behind the speakers as well.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Matchstikman on 10/12/16 at 15:02:22

From what I learned, know, and even heard Steve mention is that absorption is the #1 thing to set up and then diffusers.  Absorption helps with frequency control and diffusers are for imaging.  Diffusers I don't think will do much for controlling frequencies.

That's what I've heard.
I've got a little of both in my listening room.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 10/12/16 at 15:05:34

I think those rules of thumb may not apply as much to OBs.  

I have LOTs of absorbers, but they are now in the back of my room combined into one big bass trap.  They took too much life out of the room.

With traditional box speakers, I had absorbers at the first reflection points.  With OBs, I go strictly with diffusion.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 10/12/16 at 16:11:16

Palo, I wish I had been there Saturday morning. I would have loved to hear your OB's.
I saw the pictures of your OB's at the fest and felt a pang of remorse of not being there when they played.
I almost brought my designs up on Friday, but decided to ride my motorcycle up, and they are a little large to be strapped on to my BMW!
I'm now trying to figure out how I can fit a couple of Imperials into my fortified bunker, they will fit if I take all of this extra furniture out.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 10/12/16 at 16:16:11

Yeah, part of me wishes I'd have had another opportunity to put them in, even if they didn't sound as smooth as the Betsy's.  I just didn't want to get in the way of people trying to make buying decisions.

Donnie, do you have the treble cut on your Torii?

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 10/12/16 at 16:46:42


Quote:
From what I learned, know, and even heard Steve mention is that absorption is the #1 thing to set up and then diffusers.  Absorption helps with frequency control and diffusers are for imaging.  Diffusers I don't think will do much for controlling frequencies.


The last part of this paragraph about diffusers improving frequency response is an often misunderstood point.

If you think about how absorbers work, you'll see that diffusers also help with frequency. I'll clarify by using subs to illustrate a point, because it's painfully apparent at that frequency, what our issue is (reflections).

Let's look at it this way - why do we have bass traps?  Well, it's not because the the bass is too loud and we want to make it quieter, no. It's because as the bass bounces between the walls you get hot-spots where a positive wave meets another positive wave, and we get dead-spots where a positive wave hits a negative wave and they cancel each other out. So we place traps to try and tame those reflections so they are less damaging to the original wave. If you were outside, playing your subwoofer in an open field, you would truly hear the bass as it is because there are no reflections adding and subtracting to the source wave from the driver.

So why wouldn't this also apply to the rest of the frequency spectrum?

It absolutely does, which is why we use *broadband* traps at reflection points to deaden the reflection and allow our clever ears/brain to hear the source more accurately. We are deadening those reflections, so they don't muck with the original wave coming from the drivers. When we have strong reflections mixing with the original source, we get comb filtering...which is basically like the hot-spots and dead-spots that are so apparent in the subwoofer frequency. Except at higher frequencies it would look like sharp peaks (and valleys) in an otherwise flat response making the response look like a comb if you saw it on a scope.




So how does this comb filtering effect what we hear? Well, lets take a saxophone for example; it has a particular sound which is rich in harmonic overtones, and that gives it its particular timbre or "voice". If you have comb filtering you are shifting or changing those harmonic overtones and your sax loses it's timbre...it's flat and less believable. When it's right, it's "realistic and engaging".

So, circling back to diffusers - how do diffusers help with frequency response? Well, technically exactly the same way absorbers are, but in a less subtractive way; basically it's breaking up that direct-reflection and turning it into many smaller reflections in many different directions so it's less damaging to the direct wave. The difference is absorbers are sucking energy out of the reflections, and diffusers are keeping (most) of the energy in the room and just redirecting those reflections.

Diffusers also have the advantage of being able to add a bit of a time delay (bouncing around in those wells before exiting) to your reflected sound which at least makes your room seem bigger, if not completely making the walls disappear! That's something absorbers simply can't do. Diffusers really make the music more engaging.

TL;DR  ;D  Both absorbers and diffusers help with frequency response by dealing with reflections that damage the original sound wave.


IMHO - if I were starting fresh, I would start with absorbers to treat problems, then bring in diffusers to bring life back into the room and assist (with time delay) in making the walls disappear. *Both* help with frequency response.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 10/12/16 at 17:08:06

Palo,Yes I have the treble cut on my Torii. Also JRiver has a whole suite of  adjustments available to tailor the sound.
I'm really a bad person to ask about sound quality. I don't know if it is hearing or ignorance, to describe what sounds good or bad is way beyond my talents. I've spent the last 50+ years working in machine shops,riding loud racing motorcycles, shooting guns, and playing music way too loud to be able to discern subtleties that you all hear.
Saying that, I can tell when something sounds good to me, it might not be the same thing that sounds good to other people.
I could tell that Steve's room sounded much better this year than years past, but the room always sounded good to me.
I really should have some other people listen to my OB's to tell me what they hear, I really don't have much of a ego about them to take criticism.  

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 10/27/16 at 18:16:15

I was up at the cottage shutting it down for the winter and had some of the best listening of the year.  I don't know why, but the Rachael/DIY monoliths were really musical.

I ended up bringing that combo home for the winter and put the Rachael in the with OBs.   I had tried this before and also with a Zen amp and didn't like it.  But with the DSD upsampling in Audirvana, now it sounded pretty good.  Not as much umph as the Torii, but very good detail and musical.

So, I am running the OBs with Rachael for a while and then I will switch back.  Or I may put the monos in.  If I could get the musical sound that I got up at the cottage, I would be pretty happy.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 10/28/16 at 20:50:22


I'm glad you brought the Rachel down. I still have a pair of 807 tubes for you to try out, see if you like them.



I've been doing some listening as well.

https://www.facebook.com/LonelyRaven/videos/10154679831542188/

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 10/28/16 at 21:12:17

I checked that out when you posted on facebook.  It disappeared and then came back.  

Anyway, I thought it actually sounded good, even through my computer.  It sounded like you have the kind of listening experience I did up at the cottage.  I didn't want to come home.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 10/29/16 at 19:18:08

Well, I basically dragged every diffuser I have (that's assembled) into the nearly empty living room, and tried to space them out evenly to give a sense of having walls equidistant. I don't have the imaging that you have, but there is clearly more detail and I can hear deeper into the recordings...something I was missing before with all the ambient noise and lopsided room.

It makes me want to lower the noise floor even further, and makes me wish even more I had a nice rectangular room with high ceilings to work with.

All this world class gear, and the room is still holding me back. I guess I need to just keep building diffusers.


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 10/30/16 at 18:31:34

Ok, hooked up the monoliths but left the augies going.  Crossed at about 50hz.   Hmmmmmmmm

The project continues....

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Robster1961 on 10/30/16 at 19:10:23

nice

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 10/31/16 at 18:46:18

I am wondering if some kind of H frame with Augies on the bottom, 945s up top (sans bass cabinet) is the winning ticket.  

I can kind of try this with putting the 945s on a traditional speaker stand, but I suspect the bass cabinets add to the soundstage.

This combo is not a clear as the W1808s, but its is more musical.  

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 10/31/16 at 21:51:53


Sounds like a great experiment!


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 11/07/16 at 17:56:43

Well, I haven't built any H frames yet, but I did wonder what would happen if I toe'd in the OBs like I did the monos.  I had avoided toe in on the OBs in the past because it was too pericing and I found I needed to be seated a little off axis.

Well with the Audirvana DSD upsampling, I found that I can get away with more toe in on the OBs and it helped to fill out the soundstage.  

I switched back to the monos and still found the immersion to be better, but they sounded somewhat muted in comparison (sorry, the only word that came into my head).

So I guess I just want a pair of speakers with the bass punch of the augies, the soundstage of the monos, with the clarity and detail of the single drivers but with the musicality of the Betsy.  

Can anyone line me up?


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 11/08/16 at 15:53:07


Quote:
So I guess I just want a pair of speakers with the bass punch of the augies, the soundstage of the monos, with the clarity and detail of the single drivers but with the musicality of the Betsy.


Yeah, don't we all!


Didn't you try the Augies with the Monos? Isn't that close enough?


I was playing with my MG944, and the better I get my room, the more I'm disliking the head in a vice feel to get the imaging just right. Especially since I keep moving things around, and I'm agonzing over getting the imaging back on target for that micro-sweetspot.

I'm hoping you figure something out. I love my MG944, but the better the imaging is, the more frustrated I get when I knock it out of line.

Plus I'm still having issues getting my big 21" sub integrated. I may just need an amp like yours with DSP/X-over to make it easier to experiment with subs.

We need a CDaPS meet soon! It sounds like we need a meeting of the minds to sort things out at both locations!

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 11/08/16 at 17:10:40

I like the clarity and detail of the w8 1808s and the musicality/soundstage of the 945s.  Long term, I am not sure which I will stay with.  I am leaning towards the 945s.

Let me finish up these diffusers and then have you over for a listen.  You do likewise.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 11/08/16 at 19:09:48


Yeah, now that I'm making progress on big broadband diffusers!  

I'll need to swing by the hardware store and pick up more wood stock or just work with the MDF I have, but I hope to have at least two prototypes done by this Sunday. that would make three prototypes in 2 months, getting progressively more complex...that's HUGE.


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 11/14/16 at 19:43:23

I have reached a nice plateau with my system after a few changes.  I've gone back and forth with the OBs and the DIY monoliths.  While I like aspects of both speakers, I missed the detail of the OBs so I am back with them.

I have also gone to using Rachael over the Torii III, which I didn't think I'd ever go there due to the lack of the treble cut on the Rachael, but I did.  To make Rachael work, I tweaked the tube compliment, gone exclusively to upsampling to DSD in Audirvana, gone back to Decware silver interconnects (versus DIY Belden) and adjusted the settings on my PowerPlant (thanks Will).  

I am at a nice place now. I consider the timbre of the bass I hear to be a leading indicator of the sound I can achieve.  When I heard that bass timbre a few weeks ago a the cottage, I thought enough of it to haul my entire system back to Illinois to try to re-create it at home.  Well I think I am there albeit with a different set of speakers.

Just as I was feeling good about my system, I got a nice compliment this weekend.  A friend of my wife's who travels in more affluent circles than I sat down in the listening chair.  He's not in to high end, but he has friends that have big buck systems.  Anyway, he was pretty blown away and firing off questions about my source, was I playing hi-res etc. He said my system beat anything he's heard at any price (all SS, BTW).  My wife got upset because he didn't want to leave the listening chair.  Anyway, it was a nice "victory" given how much I have been fussing with these speakers.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Bottlehead on 11/15/16 at 08:45:12

Hey Palo,

+1 on the preference for OB. I had loaned a friend a pair of my VMPS 626s, and I had been using my Hawthorne Audio Duets and a custom matching Hawthorne Audio OB center channel in my home theater. I got the VMPS back over the weekend, and did an all-VMPS system with a pair of 626s as front channels, a pair of 626s as rear channels, and an LRC at the center. The first thing that I noticed was that I had to give them twice as much volume to equal the OBs. And that still didn't give me the detail or soundstage of the OBs. Am I spoiled for life? Not sure yet, and I'll play around with them some more this weekend, but I was definitely surprised, given that the VMPS 626s are some of my all-time favorite speakers. (In their defense, I have to say that they are single amped, whereas, I know you know, the Duets are bi-amped. So maybe this isn't a fair comparison, this isn't about fair - it's about sound quality. I was looking to simplify my HT setup, but I may be selling a whole pack of VMPS in the near future).

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 11/15/16 at 17:52:30


I would love a single speaker solution - I just have yet to find one that does what I want smoothly. So I hope you have something to show me, Pal!!  :)

How's the diffusers coming along? I didn't get mine to final assembly as I've been on the road for work. I'm already working on tweaking my process for the next one to be better and easy to build.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 11/15/16 at 18:01:22

I think you will find it better, but I still think the monos give better "you are there."  I am giving a little of that up for the detail of the OBs.

I put one QRD23 in the room last night (unpainted) and I swear it makes a difference.  Definitely provided me with incentive to power through the second one.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 11/15/16 at 19:41:50


How many are you going to build?

If I don't get derailed again tonight - I'm going to final assemble my 12" deep QRD17.

I have next week off (all week), so I'm going to see if I can churn through two more QRD like yours, but 12" deep. If they turn out well, my big goal is going to be replacing all that heavy, but shallow, wood diffuser on my back wall with 12" or possibly even 16" deep QRD29.  I don't think the flutter type diffusers are doing the room much help in the front to back bounces.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 11/15/16 at 19:48:46

Just one more for now.  When I am done with that one, my front wall will go:

1. Corner bass trap
2. QRD23
3. QRD7
4. QRD13
5. QRD7
6. QRD23
7. Corner bass trap

Side walls:

1. inverse fractal diffuser
2. QRD13
3. inverse fractal diffuser

Back wall

1. Corner bass trap
2. Five fractal diffusers of varying heights in an array
3. Corner bass trap

I still have all my absorbers stacked up in the back of the room as a massive bass trap of some sorts.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 11/16/16 at 03:58:50

Those reverse fractals work great don't they!

I can't believe they didn't even think to try them. I feel the individual reverse fractals work better than two or maybe even three of the regular fractals. I've been stacking them on top of my other diffusers sideways, so they are diffusing stuff from high up in a vertical format.

QRD are still better though, due to the time delay.  ;)

You're room is going to look, and sound sexy!  We need a meetup soon!

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Dave1210 on 02/21/17 at 11:51:40

http://www.dagogo.com/pureaudioproject-trio15-voxativ-open-baffle-speakers-review


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/21/17 at 12:26:59

Thanks Dave. I have had my eye on those for a while. I hadn't seen a review though.   I am enjoying Ravens Betsys and should have my own pair delivered this week.  

I have been alternating between Ravens Betsys and the tang bands.  Some interesting comparisons to be made.  These will hold me over until I can afford the voxativ.

I also have been painting the heavy MDF baffles that we made.   I like those heavier baffles for bass feel.   Unfortunately I am a poor painter but they should sound good.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/21/17 at 20:43:46

P.S. Looks like Pure Audio Project and voxativ will be at Axpona this year.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 02/21/17 at 23:32:48

I just priced some voxativ drivers, holy sheep shit Margo!
I wonder if they would take my Grand Cherokee in as trade for 4 15's and a pair of the 190MM full rangers?

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 02/23/17 at 17:30:44

I really love Donnie's salt-of-the-earth expressions.

Also, he saved me from having to bother looking up the price on those speakers. LOL

Since Palomino and I are running parallel projects (and he's got my Betsy drivers), I'm going to tak onto his thread:

I finished repairing the walls in one of my two spare bedrooms, I got $90 off on an Earlex spray gun (which I wanted for multiple projects anyways, including staining my deck and hardwood diffusers), and sprayed the walls and this is going to be my new computer room.  Which frees up my slightly larger spare bedroom (10 x 12 x 8) to be a dedicated Zen Audio Room. Think, wall to wall diffusers, a pair of speakers, UFO modded Zen amp, and a chair = near field bliss (or so I hope)

I traded my Blue Zu to another forum member for his 2008 Omega 8" Hemp Cone monitors. I was going to sell my Zu and see how to afford some of the 6" Omega speakers - but honestly, money is so tight for the next year that the trade is just a better option - and this get's my feet wet with Omega (besides listening to the Decware/Omega 4").

I also got a call from Sarah at Decware that my original Zen amp (#65) was done - I dropped it off with Steve a little while back and said UFO it, and do whatever else you want. The price of the finished product made me pucker up a bit, but Steve said it's going to blow my mind. I'm picking that up next week and really excited to hear what he's done to the old girl...the amp that started me down this path when visiting Steve's house about 19 years ago!

Next Project Lists:

Projector Screen
I really need to finish building the spandex Cinimascope projection screen so I can get my livingroom theater/listening room back together. I've been without my ZMA for almost a month now...but I've been using my MG944 on my home theater receiver as L and R speakers and honestly...this has never sounded better. I almost wish I could give them up as home theater speakers, but I love them too much for two channel, and I'm trying to *hide* as much as I can to make room for diffusers!

Betsy Baffles
Since Palomino ordered some Betsy drivers of his own, I'm assuming he's returning mine and not going to build a OB line baffle. LOL. So I need to trim my baffles to their final dimensions, build the adjustable angle "foot" for the baffles (that I designed in my head and have yet to even start). Plus I have a fun paint scheme I plan on using - just to amuse myself and friends.  ;)

Diffusers, Diffusers, and more Diffusers!
I'm building diffusers for the Axpona audio show - a friend said he'd love to display my work in his room - so I'm churning out a fleet of poplar diffusers that I'm going to sand and stain and deliver to him to use at Axpona. I've already dropped more money than I should on wood, and the aforementioned HVLP spray gun. And as always, I'll try to squeeze in a few really broadband diffusers for myself to populate my home theater/listening room and probably sell off my fleet of prototypes. LOL

Lots going on over the next 6 weeks!! We are going to have some fun CDApS meets this summer!


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/23/17 at 18:23:08

I should get my Betsys this week or early next.  I would love for Raven to hear his Betsys in my room (since they are nice and broken in).  Also, I'd like him to hear the comparison to the tang bands.

I have painted one of the MDF baffles that Raven and I made a few weeks ago and have the other one primed.  Not happy with the paint job on the one so I may sand a little and put another coat on this weekend.

I also tried some new Audirvana settings that Will suggested and they may be the best ones yet.  They are very smooth and analogue to use an overused phrase.

I also built another 2X2 QRD13 diffuser to help with a problem posed by a desk that still resides in my listening room.  I think the reflections off that desk were causing some clutter up front and now with the QRD in front of it, the sound seems improved.

So the project continues.  I am looking forward to getting the MDF baffles back in place once they are painted.  Bass is pretty crisp with the old baffles so I am looking forward to seeing if I get another lift.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 02/23/17 at 20:36:56

It's amazing how much "lift" we keep getting...I'm constantly thinking "this can't get *any* better without major changes" - then we find some small change that causes us to raise our eyebrows in wonder.

So....when do you want me to come by and help you move that desk out of there?  ;)  


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/23/17 at 20:37:47

I got to kick a kid out the door first !

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 02/23/17 at 20:44:27



Quote:
I got to kick a kid out the door first !


Do you need help with that? LOL

I'm available Saturday or Sunday around Noon (currently) if you want me to pop by for a listen...and to get my speakers.  ;)


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/23/17 at 20:45:14

yeah that might be good.  I'll let you know.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 02/23/17 at 22:24:52

Palo,
You know how I like putting a nice finish on speakers, I'd be more than happy to make your baffles shine.
I'm in the midst of of a transmission line sub project that promises to make the entire neighborhood pissed off at me, but there is always time to help you out.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 02/23/17 at 22:29:01

Thanks Donnie.

Raven also as a professional spray setup that I could always try to bum off him if I really wanted to do it right.  

Given I change speakers frequently, I don't know how much more work I am going to put into them.  I find that black paint covers many flubs.  In this case though I tried gloss black.  Bad idea.

I am interested in the sub project.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 02/24/17 at 15:36:15

Yeah, gloss black is like a mirror - every wave and imperfection shows up. Car guys hate doing black cars because it shows and magnifies  all the flaws.

I wouldn't say have a professional spray setup - I do have a pretty decent HVLP gun I'm learning to use though.  ;)

Unfortunately I'm not going to be using it on my speakers, but I'll be using it on the diffusers really soon. I'm going to try flat black (waterbase) on the styro ones I built, and might try an oil base on the poplar diffusers. We'll see how that turns out. It's actually pretty easy to clean, which was a big worry for me - but then I've only shot water based latex so far.  We'll see what happens when I start doing oil based finishes and the crap gets everywhere over the outside of the gun (and myself) because I'm clumsy.  LOL

I have tonight off, and I'm picking up the Omega's from the local Fed Ex depot (assuming they don't drop the ball today). So I'm going to give them a listen and get back to projects. I'll report back over the weekend.  ;)

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 03/01/17 at 18:58:12

Here is what they look like painted.  I still may re-paint the right one because it is just not as well done as the left one.

The lesson learned from this phase of project is:

OB Baffle density matters.  Crisper everything.  Bass, mids, highs, imaging, etc.


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 03/01/17 at 21:02:56

Looks good my friend!

I also notice you pulled the pad off the top of the Ikea chair.  ;)


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 03/01/17 at 21:25:27

Yeah, I have tried it a few times in the past.  It does help.

I typically just put the existing pad up vertically and it stays put till I move which is a bit of a pain.   I really need to make a small pillow of sorts and connect it to the crossbar.

I don't think I would take as radical an approach as you in cutting the cross-bar out, but you never know...

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 03/02/17 at 17:18:40


There are a couple Ikea Poang chairs for sale in the FB marketplace. I might pick one up and experiment with cutting and adjusting. Make it a proper audiophile chair with a tilted and adjustable headrest.  I know I talked of that before, but funding is holding me back.

~Eric~


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 03/13/17 at 20:13:19

I found a little hidden treasure this weekend in my pursuit of bass speakers to go with my Betsy OB build.  

I dropped off a bunch of donations at Goodwill this weekend and then decided to stroll into the store to see what electronics they had.  Lo and behold, I found these large floorstanding Sony speakers.  I pulled off the front grill on one of them and found a 3-way with a 15" bass speaker with a mounting bolt pattern that was very familiar.

So I Google the specs for the model number.  30-20Hz, 91db efficiency.  Hmmmm.

So I look at the price: only $6.99!  I was driving the van so I had room to take them home so I figured why not.  Turns out they were $6.99 a piece once I got up to the counter to check out, but I figured it was still worth the risk.

So I get it home and pull one of the bass drivers to see if the holes match up.  Perfect match.

Overall though, this had to be one of the cheapest constructed speaker I have ever seen.  Not even 1/2" low density particle board.  They didn't even use a full length plastic tube for the port.  Instead, it was plastic on the outside and then a cardboard tube glued to it on the inside.  And no cross-over really, just a single teeny cap on the mid range.

So, I begin to get nervous.  Had I just squandered $16??  That's a bottle of wine or 2/3 of a fifth of Scotch (I drink cheap).  I do not take such things lightly.

Anyway, I put them in my original Palomino Audio Project baffles along with the Betsys and gave them a listen.

Not bad!  Actually, better than not bad.  Musical even.

No, they weren't as punchy as the Augies.  Nor as tight.  But they dig pretty deep and move some air.  They are keepers!


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 03/15/17 at 17:14:39

I have been doing some A/B with the Augies and these little Goodwill buys are pretty impressive.  I think they may go lower than the Augies and possibly pull out a little more music given they are higher efficiency.

I did discover that one of them has a stain on the cone.  Probably somebody spilled a drink on them, but otherwise they are in pretty good shape.  They do have a foam surround which may be a problem some day.

Compared to the augie, the magnet is pretty dinky, so I wasn't expecting much but they are turning out to be one of my best audio bargains yet.

I will get el president over to get his impressions.  Maybe he will bring the souped up Zen...

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 03/15/17 at 18:23:00


Yeah, I'm really looking forward to hearing them! And I'm looking forward to showing off the little Zen amp that could!


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 05/02/17 at 14:18:11

I was planning on yard work last weekend but the weather did not cooperate.  Instead I decided to make some baffles for my Betsys and Thrift-store-find 15s.

I wanted some thing smaller and lighter because WAF is an issue at the cottage where I don't have a dedicated room.  I used 1" MDF instead of doubling up the 3/4" that El Presidente and I did for the bigger version.  I also cut these down several inches on each side (wish I would have cut them down more).  These weigh a lot less and are much easier to move around.  I may need to move them off to the side when not in use.

The larger version was over $900 for the drivers/wood.  The smaller version was around $200.  These sound very fine for what I have in to them.  The thrift store 15s will run off the plate amp.  If I get a deal, I will definitely buy another Crown.





Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 05/02/17 at 18:29:59

Photos not working brother.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 05/02/17 at 18:51:23

Hmmm, worked in the preview.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Tripwr1964 on 05/03/17 at 00:17:21

palo,

is there a pic of the backside of either of your ob's?  courious how its standing up, or any bracing, and what ur doing for xo?

tim

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 05/03/17 at 01:03:36

No pic but there is simply a 12" foot attached to the bottom.  If you zoom in on the picture you can see 4 counter sunk screws across the bottom.  I just glued it and screwed it.  Both the weight of the foot and the magnet weight on the drivers keep it from falling forward.  It is very stable.  This is the same thing Randy does on his Betsy baffles.  He may have some additional bracing.

For xover it's in the crown amp.  I think right now it is set to 83hz.  I like it set a little lower on the Augies and a bit higher on the Betsys as I feel they need a little more of the bottom end filled in.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 05/03/17 at 15:24:46

Pics seem to be good now - thanks. Looks good brother!

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 10/30/17 at 14:49:10

Well, there have been some advancement in the project so I thought I would give an update.

One of my takeaways from Decfest this year was the sound that I heard from one of Randy’s creations where he added an Air Motion Transformer to his Besty Baffle speakers.  This design utilizes his standard Besty Baffle with a whizzerless Besty driver and a Dayton Audio AMT.  

To me, this created some very smooth treble, and because he was running the AMT in dipole, it also created a very large soundstage and sense of air.  When combined with a companion Eminence woofer in a separate baffle with a crossover, I thought this provided great sound for the money and an advance on Randy’s earlier designs.

Randy was kind enough to set me up with a pair of the AMTs, caps and coils.  I chose 12K as the initial cross-over point based on where Randy was crossing his design and a peak that shows up around this point in the W8 1808 spec chart.   Randy runs his design without a coil on the whizzerless Betsy, but I felt eliminating some of that peak would be helpful on tracks that can get a bit ragged and shouty on the Tang Bands.

Initially out of the box, you realize these are pretty serious drivers.  Heavy magnets on either side and a heavy face plate give the feel of quality.  There are two pieces of a heavy wool-like insulation which can be removed from the back of each driver to allow them to operate in dipole mode.

To get my first taste, I placed them sideways, leaning up against a CD case, on top of another set of speakers set up beside my OBs.  I only used the cap on the AMT for this experiment.  Here is my first report to Randy:  


I got most of what I was looking for even with this crude setup.  Sweeter, smoother highs and a bigger overall image.  

But I decided that there was too much treble, so I did add the coil to the Tang Bands.  To me it sounds like a very smooth transition now and crossing them at 12K does indeed seem to be just about right.

I am also getting some very good information that was missing before.  More likely to hear singers breath, fingers on the strings and such. I do believe it has cut down on the rising frequency response issue as well.



These AMTs could be added to my current 1.5” mdf baffles, but the question was where to put them on the baffle and would placing them lower and beside another driver impede the sound?

So I made up some mini-baffles out of Baltic birch and mounted them to the left of the Tang Bands, but on top, like a little tab sticking up from the top of the baffle.  I’d post a picture, but I need to find another site due to photobucket restricting posting of pictures to another web site.

Well, I didn’t like the sound as much as when I just had them sitting on top of the speakers on the outside of each OB.  It seemed to restrict the sound stage width.  

So I moved them to the other side of the baffle, to the right (as you face the OB) of the Tang Bands.  This seemed to be better spacing which allowed for the wide soundstage.  Having them up top also raised the position of the vocalist and generally raised the level of the overall soundstage.  I think I will try one more position which would be directly above the Tang Band, but I need to cut my birch baffles a bit so they will fit.

The long and the short of it is that this is a great setup and helps overcome some of the issues with the single driver sound and add a great sense of air.  I enjoy a lot of live recordings and this is just the ticket for that kind of open sound.  I do feel that things are breaking in and the final sound of this setup could even be better.  I probably have about 20 hours on them now.

Once broken in, I will try to get a couple more set of ears over here to see what they think.  I might get a little crazy and break out the measurement mic.

You could argue that I had to add a cap and coil which adds more to the signal path.  But I am hearing more detail than I heard before and the treble is more pleasant.  I think I also lost a little volume and had to turn down the Crown amps running the Augies one notch to compensate and keep things balanced.  

BTW, I am also impressed with the price/performance ratio on the Auracaps that Randy recommended.  I have a pair of Mundorf ZNs that I will probably swap in, but I’ll wait till these new caps have some more hours on them.

P.S. I like to monkey around with building speakers but if you just want good sound at a very reasonable price and no sawdust: http://caintuckaudio.com/

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 10/30/17 at 22:37:55

My plan is to use an AMT tweeter in my next speaker build. A super top secret transmission line using 2-8” drivers, one pointed up like a radial and then the tweeter.. I really need to buy some woodworking tools.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by beowulf on 10/31/17 at 02:20:32

They are also using an AMT driver in Spatial Audio's new X2 OB.  The AMT's crossover is at 800Hz and covers both the mid and upper ranges to 23kHz.  Overall sensitivity = 94dB @ 4ohms ... a very sexy looking speaker IMO.  I imagine this will sound much smoother than their other models that paired a 1" coaxial tweeter with 15" woofers.  Too bad it costs $9600 though!


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by alper_yilmaz on 10/31/17 at 04:44:44

Hi Beowulf,

I have been looking into the Spatial Audio’s for quite some time now, particularly the M3 Triode Masters (at 95 dB efficiency and 16 ohms) to match my SE84UFO.  Actually, when I wrote to Clayton (the owner of the company), he mentioned it would not be a good match as he thinks that the M3 Triode Masters need at least 10 watts per channel.  

The SE puts a very generous 2 watts per channel and makes my 91 dB speakers with some complex crossovers shine already, so I cannot imagine how goodit would sound with the Spatials.  Still, one side of me tends to listen to the designer of the speaker, and I do not want to abuse the 60-day return policy...

I would appreciate if anyone with experience with the Sparials chime in...

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by beowulf on 10/31/17 at 09:19:24


alper_yilmaz wrote on 10/31/17 at 04:44:44:
Hi Beowulf,

I have been looking into the Spatial Audio’s for quite some time now, particularly the M3 Triode Masters (at 95 dB efficiency and 16 ohms) to match my SE84UFO.  Actually, when I wrote to Clayton (the owner of the company), he mentioned it would not be a good match as he thinks that the M3 Triode Masters need at least 10 watts per channel.  

The SE puts a very generous 2 watts per channel and makes my 91 dB speakers with some complex crossovers shine already, so I cannot imagine how goodit would sound with the Spatials.  Still, one side of me tends to listen to the designer of the speaker, and I do not want to abuse the 60-day return policy...

I would appreciate if anyone with experience with the Sparials chime in...


I would probably go with the manufacturer's recommendation.  The closest Decware amp would be the Rachel (set as monos) or Torii Jr. and up.  The new Decware 6c33c mono blocks (when they come out) should have the wattage necessary to drive them as well.

If it were me I would probably choose the Pure Audio Project Trio 15 Heil over anything of Spatial Audio's lineup (up to the X2 that is) as I think they are designed better.  They are also a better fit for your Zen amp ...

  • The impedance on the Spatial M3 Triode Masters is 16 ohms whereas the PAP Trio 15 Heil is 3.5 to 8 ohms and the little Zen amps are known to like lower impedances.
  • The minimum amp wattage on the PAP Trio 15 Heil is only 3.5 watts and the Spatial is 10 watts.
  • They are $400 cheaper as well.


The Spatial X2 look to be a much better speaker than all the others in his lineup (aside from the X1).  But the X2 are $9600 and Pure Audio Project has some really nice offerings in the price range as well namely the Trio 15 Voxativ with the AC-PiFe drivers and the build quality of those drivers are pretty kick a$$ as they make some of the best single driver speakers in the business IMO.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 11/01/17 at 18:06:52

Those Spatials are pretty sexy.  Those Spatial baffles were part of the reason why I beefed up my baffle thickness on my OBs.  

I do recall talking to him at Axpona and I thought he said 8-10 watts.  I don't specifically remember which model I heard but I do recall liking the PAP with the Tang Band W8s better.

Unfortunately, last year the PAP room didn't have the Voxativ going.  He didn't have some tool required to mount them or something.  Instead they were running some kind of horn.  Given the taste I have of the AMTs, I'd like to hear that version.


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 11/01/17 at 20:18:02


Huh, that T-shaped open baffle was exactly what I was planning on doing with my Betsy speakers! I wanted mass, but to still be open, and have a solid 3 points of contact with the floor so you could adjust the tilt with threaded feets.

I guess my imagination was on the right track.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 11/01/17 at 20:21:39

I had threaded feet on my original design to change the angle.  Being as tall as they were, I didn't need much of an angle.  Given the tall soundstage the Betsys throw, I am not sure how necessary it is.  Might be more necessary in a smaller room.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 11/01/17 at 22:37:59

My OB's sit straight up and down. Not because of some sort of fancy math equation, but because I'm lazy.
I did try sticking some old Hunter S. Thompson books under the front once but it didn't do anything for me. Maybe they were too existential!?
There was that other time when I put $4.29 worth of expanded foam pipe insulation under the baffles to "isolate" them from the floor, again, nothing earth shattering happened. For just a buck more I could have gotten one of those box meals at Taco Bell and had to isolate myself in my bathroom for the next day or two. I'm not too sure of what would have made a better investment.
"Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why.”
― Hunter S. Thompson, The Curse of Lono

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by beowulf on 11/02/17 at 08:57:57

@ Pal and Raven ~ Yeah, the double thick baffle on the X2 look pretty stout!  I also like the modular stacking of them and the way they connect to each other via some type of allen nut and bolt system.  I have heard that another sub can be added and will be available at a later date (if one was inclined).  Not that I have the skills to build this, but if I did that's what I would try to make something like the X2 as well.

But for the price though the Pure Audio Project Trio 15 Heil AMT is looking pretty good IMO.

@ Donnie ~ freakin' hilarious! :D ;D

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 11/02/17 at 12:29:49

Ever heard this one Donnie?

"When to going gets tough, the weird turn pro"
Hunter S Thompson

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 11/02/17 at 17:10:02

Palo,
I've held my Weirdo  Professional classification since I was 16 years old!  

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 11/11/17 at 00:17:52

I ended up moving the AMTs to just above the Tang Band and that's where they will stay.  I lose a little in soundstage width, but gain better overall continuity.

I also swapped in some Mundorf Zn's for the Audyn Caps.  Sound is richer, but I lost some air.  The Mundorfs are triple the price.  I am keping them in for now, but will switch back at some point to see which I will live with.

With a little break-in, these AMTs are really nice and I am digging the overall sound.  Great addition to the Palomino Audio Project.

I may look at other drivers to cover the lower to upper mids, but I find these Tang Bands to be pretty rich as well.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Dave1210 on 11/11/17 at 12:37:59

Thought you guys might enjoy this, except LR, who should skip the section on Listening Rooms : )

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/conclusions.htm


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 11/11/17 at 13:53:37

Good stuff Dave.  I have read bits and pieces of his page before and checked out his speaker designs.  I don't think I've ever read his conclusions.  Yes, El Presidente should probably give the Listening Room section a pass. Others who can't load their rooms up with sound treatments will take heart.

I stumbled into this speaker project with a little information gleaned from the Web and direction provided by Randy and Maddog but it would appear, in this fellow's opinion, I got some things right.

I also liked this statement:

It is difficult to screw up an open baffle speaker design to where it sounds worse than your typical box speaker.

I found it encouraging, but I am not sure I completely agree.  It has taken quite a bit of time and tweaking for me to get these OBs to the point where I have few reservations about them.

I also stumbled into this by just experimenting:


Placing absorbers at reflection points is the wrong approach. It only absorbs high frequencies and increases the difference between the direct sound and the delayed room response. It works against perceptually masking the room response as merely a copy of the direct sound.


I have found diffusers at the first reflection points to work better with these OBs.

I am at a very comfortable place right now with the way that my room/equipment sounds.  Yes, I have heard more detail, deeper bass, etc. from other systems.  But in a holistic sense and the pure ability to deliver an enjoyable, immersive listening experience, I am at a very good place.  

Getting the highs to a more pleasant place via the AMT and the overall image it helps project was a fairly big step.

And yet, I know there is still much more to be done, both with my equipment and my room.

For some reason, my new Mac mini does not like REW.  Once I figure that out, I will contribute some measurements to the sound treatment threads in hopes of getting some direction from those who actually understand this stuff.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lon on 11/11/17 at 14:13:11

My own experience makes me think this is a pretty accurate statement:

People listen differently. Performing musicians and members of the audience are used to different perspectives and focus on different aspects of the sound. Both are valuable for analyzing a loudspeaker. People who only listen to loudspeakers and thus always compare loudspeakers are poor judges of accuracy.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 11/11/17 at 14:58:57

I am one of the lucky people who have gotten to actually listen to Palomino's speakers in his treated room.
I will admit that my first impression was that "These guys are nuts, this is as far off of the deep end as I have ever seen". But there is a method behind the madness. Wow does Palo's speakers and room sound good, and when I say good I mean great!
The detail, the imaging, all of those fancy audiophile descriptors, all come true.
In his room even my ill conceived, poorly designed, and terribly executed OB's sounded pretty OK. Not near as good as the Palomino Project, but in the right neighborhood.
I bet that the AMT tweeter has pushed these speakers way over the top.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 11/11/17 at 18:59:49

Thanks Donnie.  I am glad you lugged your OBs up here so I could hear them.  

I figured out how to get REW going.  Now I need to remember how to use it.

Lon, I used to be lucky enough to hear a lot of live music.  Lately it has been stuff my kids want to go to. I found the United Center to actually be better than expected but not exactly concert hall quality.  

One fun thing lately is that one of my kids is really into music and listens to a lot of 60s-80s music.  

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by beowulf on 11/11/17 at 20:38:35

Does anybody have a guess as to why the AMT isn't used in a lot more speakers?  It's been around since 1972 for crying out loud and it's very efficient ... seems like tube'ophiles would be all over it.  The ESS AMT LE for instance does 98db @ 8 ohms with a freq response of 30-23k +/- 3db!

Does it have some weird crossover point, dips or bumps, etc.?

I've never heard it though ... or maybe I have in some different forms from Martin Logan and GoldenEar, etc. and just never paid much attention to it as I did not realize those brands incorporated an iteration of it in their designs.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lon on 11/11/17 at 21:33:33


Palomino wrote on 11/11/17 at 18:59:49:
Lon, I used to be lucky enough to hear a lot of live music.  Lately it has been stuff my kids want to go to. I found the United Center to actually be better than expected but not exactly concert hall quality.   

I don't get out that much these days either, but we both have been out enough in the past to have an "ear" that will help us evaluate the "reality" in music reproduction, or lack of same.

I also found the three years or so that I played in bands (out in clubs and in the garage apartment I lived in, and one studio) to give me an interesting perspective. I remember some jazz fans last century bitching about the sound of a few reissue series of jazz releases from the 'fifties and the 'sixties saying that the sound was too loud and upfront. . . whereas what I heard reminded me of the sound one hears from a band when you are on stage or on the floor with them, among them, which may not be a great listening experience in a living room or via headphones, but the way these were recorded was an accurate presentation. And gave a certain excitement to the sound.

We all bring our history into the present, and that includes into our listening.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lon on 11/11/17 at 21:37:16


Palomino wrote on 11/11/17 at 18:59:49:
One fun thing lately is that one of my kids is really into music and listens to a lot of 60s-80s music.  

That is very cool. I can still remember listening to music with my Dad when I was younger, seeing how it comforted and moved him and learning to feel similarly. And then later as a teen seeing a different reaction from my Dad to the music I was beginning to really appreciate. (My Dad did not know what to make of a few of my real favorites, "Miles Davis at Fillmore" and "Live/Evil").

Now, decades and decades later, I've been able to listen with my Dad again and learn a lot from him about classical music, which we are both hearing in even better fidelity than we had in the past. Music is a great thing to share.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 11/12/17 at 00:43:07

Beo,

I don't know why there isn't more out there.  The parts express reviews are pretty positive.  

I think it tops out around 18k but I can't hear that high anyway.  

The heil is expensive and difficult to mount and this one is supposed to approach its quality.  

It was easy to cross and I did break out REW and no bumps.  It does seem to tail off an bit more than what it think I hear.

In the reviews people talk about crossing  them pretty low without issues.

So long answer to say I don't know.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 11/14/17 at 16:25:50


Quote:
I am one of the lucky people who have gotten to actually listen to Palomino's speakers in his treated room.
I will admit that my first impression was that "These guys are nuts, this is as far off of the deep end as I have ever seen". But there is a method behind the madness. Wow does Palo's speakers and room sound good, and when I say good I mean great!
The detail, the imaging, all of those fancy audiophile descriptors, all come true.
In his room even my ill conceived, poorly designed, and terribly executed OB's sounded pretty OK. Not near as good as the Palomino Project, but in the right neighborhood.
I bet that the AMT tweeter has pushed these speakers way over the top.


I agree 100%. Besides Steve's dedicated room I heard 20 years ago, Tom's is the best I've heard since. Granted, I've not spent time in $100,000 dedicated rich-people-rooms.

Oh, and Donnie is modest, I really liked his OBs.


Quote:
Yes, El Presidente should probably give the Listening Room section a pass



Quote:
Thought you guys might enjoy this, except LR, who should skip the section on Listening Rooms : )


This is me reading his B.S. about "The Room is Rarely At Fault"




Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 11/14/17 at 16:30:51

I have been playing with REW.  Pretty flat response with no real trouble spots.  I need el presidente to review my findings though and see if I am doing anything wrong.

I did play with the EQ in Audirvana to tweak 12K & up because that's where it falls off with the AMT.  So far, I like a little more sweetening.

If anybody can suggest a new photo posting place, I will post some of my measurements.  I haven't visited photobucket since their new policy but I think they want $$

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Jeff of Arabica on 11/14/17 at 22:30:13

Use IMGUR.COM to upload and host images.  Works great and it free (at least for now).  

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 11/15/17 at 11:37:47

Thanks Jeff, I will give it a try.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by maddog07 on 11/15/17 at 18:25:00

yep... the Betsy AMT was a bit of a "OMG" moment for me at Decfest this year as well.  Air and space was amongst the best I think I've ever heard.  I’m sure Steve’s room has a lot to do with this as well.  I've been in this hobby about 40 years now and have heard about everything there is to hear (attend RMAF a few years and your reference will be broadened - and don't forget to get out and hear "live" music as often as you can).  Not too many things impress me much anymore... but the Betsy AMT "got my attention".  Just like full-rangers and flea-watt tubes got my attention about 5 years ago.  And like OB’s got my attention about 3 years ago.  There’s not many “box” speakers I can tolerate anymore.  However, I have been boxless with planars, Maggie’s and Martin Logan’s for many moons now to start with.  Once you go boxless… you’ll never go back!

Randy was also gracious enough to help me get setup to build a pair of Betsy AMT’s as well.  I have regular Betsy's, in a modified version of Randy's baffle.  I tilted the baffle back at about 10 degrees and run a brace down the back center of the baffle.  I would post pics, but photobucket has gotten greedy as some of you have discovered.  I’ll checkout the IMGUR site as mentioned above.  I intend to “extend” the radius of the top of Randy’s standard Betsy baffle upward to a more pointed/narrower peak to allow for the extra height the AMT driver needs.  I also like my Betsy driver mounted off-center vertically, a couple inches high of center.  There are sonic as well as aesthetic reasons for this.

Mr. Linkwitz has a ton of useful and interesting information on his site to be sure.  I have "heard", but never experimented in my own room, with a fully electronically crossed over and amped system, but it's on my "list".  I doubt it's better than crossover-less, high efficiency, full-rangers, but you never know till you try.  MiniDSP makes this relatively easy and not too expensive to try nowadays.  

Randy and I have been talking back-n-forth for some time now, about what our personal "perfect” speaker might be (for home use) - given all our experiences.  I am kind of closing in on a design that would be a "hybrid" of sorts.  It will be based around a full-range, crossover-less driver of some kind probably, i.e. the Betsy WoW driver in an OB, a dipole AMT (the Dayton model), and some type of “ambiance” driver (also OB), and of course OB bass.  I have four 15” Hawthorne Augie’s to experiment with (all mounted in modified Hawthorne Trio's at the moment).  I’m thinking separate bass baffles.  Perhaps an H-frame or W-frame OB, for a pair of the Augie’s might be the ticket.  It seems there is good science behind having the sub-bass separate from the main speakers so that you can place them optimally in the room – which is almost never the same position you place the main speakers for best soundstage, imaging, yada, yada, yada.  I have had very good integration/response results using two separate subs placed in different locations of a room, based on mode analysis – even with crude mode analysis.

One thing I am coming to learn about OB’s…. forget most everything you have learned about what is “good” for a box speaker.  A lot of it doesn’t apply to OB’s or defies what you thought you knew – at least this has been my experience.  One thing I will share is about “rigid mounting” of the driver’s in an OB to the baffle.  Forget that.  If you could completely 100% decouple the driver frame from the baffle while still sealing the area between the driver frame and baffle, it would be ideal.  We don't want the baffle to "talk" - only to separate front wave from back wave of the driver/s.  You can find some information about this on Linkwitz's page and his implementation in regards to an update to his Orion speaker models midrange driver mounting.....

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 11/15/17 at 19:12:49

Good stuff maddog.  Keep us apprised.  I am especially interested in the decoupling.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 11/23/17 at 03:42:18

Here is my first attempt at an IMGUR Image:

https://imgur.com/a/FIHK7



Edit:Hmm didn't work.


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Jeff of Arabica on 11/23/17 at 06:35:59

Be sure to post the "Image Link" that ends with the file extension, i.e. ".jpg" or ".png" depending on the type of image.  

The "Direct Link" you selected, the one without the file extension, will not work in this forum.  I did the same thing you did initially and had to do a little trial and error before figuring it out.  You are almost there!

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by DirtDawg on 11/23/17 at 06:41:04

I tried to engage in this thread, but all the pics from last year are gone.

'course, I was gone last year, too.


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 11/26/17 at 23:13:58



Right click the image, and copy image address

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 11/26/17 at 23:18:54


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 12/07/17 at 18:37:55

Thanks Raven,

I don't know if those charts are good or bad, but the low frequency has certainly smoothed out since the last time I measured.  Same for the high frequency so I'll try to post that as well.

Maybe there is something to this room treatment thing ;)

I do know that the room/system sounds it's best yet.

Just as I got a nice lift in the highs from the AMTs (on sale now BTW), I am now experimenting with filling in below 50hz with a sub.  I have never been able to integrate a sub well in the past, but that was when I was trying to cover more ground.  The Augies do the heavy lifting now, so just like the highs I am only using the sub to sweeten the lows.  It is showing some promise.

I'm using a Dayton Audio Reference series 15" driver.  Nice tight sound to it.  No blob or boom here at all.  Around $175 which doesn't break the bank.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 12/08/17 at 22:28:34


Nice to see you back on the forums.  ;)

We still on for this Sunday?


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by maddog07 on 12/09/17 at 16:56:08

the link to imgur worked for me... perfectly.  Browser and/or browser settings likely the culprit. this forum and Chrome are flaky for me - but IE seems to work flawlessly most of the time.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 12/12/17 at 14:30:59

I built a solid box for my sub experiment this last weekend.  3/4" MDF 19.25X19.25X20.  Well braced, double front baffle.  Weighs a ton.

But I must say I am happy with the result.  The Augies are a fantastic driver, but they fall off under 50hz.  This sub definitely fills in and makes certain music more enjoyable.  I was surprised that it lends definition to the bass in a lot of songs.  But you can feel it on those with the low low bass.

I was also pleasantly surprised at how well it integrates.  I have the crossover set for about 45hz and it really blends.  Raven gave it a listen and felt is was just a bit off and that I should experiment with the position a little to get it the last 10% or so.  I literally put it where I had room so I haven't played with it yet.

They recommend 1000 watts to drive the 15" driver but I am more than adequate with a Dayton Audio 250.  I'll experiment with more powerful amps, but so far so good.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 12/12/17 at 14:54:55

As you can tell, the Palomino Audio Project has completely jumped the shark.  I am quad-amping now.  

The heart and soul is my black top Rachael but I am using bridged twin Crown XLS1000s for the right and left Augies and the plate amp for the sub.

I think the next turn will be to look for a new mid range driver.  Using the Tang Band now solely as a mid range driver probably isn't the right way to go and as Raven pointed out in the last mini CDApS, there is an edge to some vocals.  Randy's whizzerless Betsy is a possibility, but it doesn't quite fit in the third iteration of the PAP baffles and I hate to toss them.

If anyone has an idea on a good 8" efficient mid range driver that I could cross at about 12K, I am all ears...

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 12/12/17 at 19:43:43


P.S. Eric was right again.   ;)


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 12/12/17 at 19:55:21

I tend to think we came to the same conclusion independently here :D

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 12/13/17 at 23:59:13

Here is the 8" driver for you.
https://www.parts-express.com/grs-8fr-8-full-range-8-speaker-pioneer-type-b20fu20-51fw--292-430

These things are stupid good for $12.
My latest build is a transmission line using 2 of these in each box. I'm having a hard time putting my OB's back in. It is kind of silly fun.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 12/14/17 at 05:19:19

For that price, you could make a crazy line array for under $300

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 01/08/18 at 22:40:31

For fun, I created a template that allows me to put my Silver Flute 8" 4 ohm drivers into my OBs in place of my Tang Bands.  These are the drivers in the DM 945 speakers.

Sensitivity matches up with the AMTs and I am using the same cap value which crosses at 12K.  Basically this is the 945 sound in an OB platform except a dipole AMT tweeter (which I love for conveying the room sound).

So far, I am impressed.  A little warm, but very nice.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 01/08/18 at 23:37:11

Hmmm Palo, I have a pair of those also. In fact I'm listening to them right now.
But I'm still recommending that you try some of the cheap 8" GRS Bofu clones. For less than $30 a pair, you have very little to lose.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 01/09/18 at 00:34:16

In checked those out Donnie.  I especially like the example where the guy put a bunch of them in a cabinet for his car.  

But they don't match the efficiency of the AMT (94db) and that would require more of an xover and I am trying to keep this to a single cap.

I'll keep looking but this driver sounds pretty good.  I may also try the 945 tweeter but it's not dipole.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 01/10/18 at 19:35:29


If you're home today (Wednesday) I can swing by after work, pick up my little Zen amp and give it a quick listen?

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 01/10/18 at 19:37:42

I'm not sure I can take any more of a beating.

I will be home around 6:00 if you want to swing by.

You could also pick up the tape deck which would give you an excuse to swing by Steve's. (although I do think he will keep this close to the vest)

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 01/16/18 at 18:22:20

I switched back to the Tang Band W8 1808 from the Silver Flute.  I believe the Tang Band driver images more precisely and has more soundstage depth - even it is forward sounding in comparison to the Silver Flute.

The Tang Band also has less of a pinned to the speaker sound on those tracks that are very left/right centric.  You know, where there is no disappearing act for the speakers.

I will pop the Silver Flutes back in at some point, but for now, I'm saying I prefer the Tang Bands.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 01/17/18 at 02:10:14

There has to be another solution. Especially if you're running those AMT tweeters. We need to find a fast driver the compliments them well.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 01/17/18 at 02:24:25

Next up may be an Eminence 8A.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Dave1210 on 01/22/18 at 12:37:59

Pal...check out the new 8in drivers from Acoustic Elegance (94.6dB).  Note: I am sending you their Facebook page vs. website, because I remember reading the website was hacked recently.  

Also worth noting, if you expand the comments for the new drivers they are working on a finished open baffle speaker (similar to the PAP design).  Their dipole woofers get good reviews and are used in the higher end Spatial Audio OB's, so could be an interesting option for the non-DIY crowd.

https://www.facebook.com/aespeakers/

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 01/29/18 at 23:31:30

I checked them out Dave.  They are around $250 a driver so not a cheap experiment, but after watching some youtube videos on their woofers and reading about them elsewhere, its likely that they are a very nice driver.  All of their stuff seems really well made.

I may call the guy to see what kind of a trial/return policy he'd offer, if any.  Not sure that's a thing in DIY circles.

In the mean time, I am enjoying the Tang Bands.  They just keep coming back to the baffles for some reason.  I did set up the crossover (cap/coil) so that its easier to swap in drivers without a re-wiring hassle.  I think at the next CDAPs I may audition the silver flutes for the membership.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Dave1210 on 01/30/18 at 01:03:44

Pal...cheaper than the Voxativ experiment I suppose, but still not cheap in the absolute.  Also, it also seems he had a different driver in mind for the AE PAP, so that could be worth a discussion too.  I get the sense that all the drivers are handmade to order, so...

Separately, I was wondering if the Leonidas crossover from the PAP might be helpful as an experiment to dial in the TB in your baffle (or any driver for that matter), but it doesn't look like they offer the crossover as a component anymore. It's possible they might configure one for you though.   I like that it's user configurable with a screw driver and new components (caps, etc).

I might send a note to AE to see how serious he is about the OB project.  

Have fun.  

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 01/30/18 at 01:33:15

I checked out the Xover at Axpona a few years back.  Did not look that complicated.  It may even be out there on the web.  They used all top shelf (or near top shelf) components so it was a bit expensive.  

But now that I type this, I don't think it would help with the things I don't like about the Tang Bands given that they are at the higher end of the audio spectrum.  I feel pretty good about where I am right now, but I could experiment with crossing the AMT at a lower point.  Supposedly, it can be crossed as low as 2K.

Last time I looked at Voxativ, they had a $1K driver that they sold.  But I heard that driver at Axpona and wasn't thrilled.  Lots of people liked it there so maybe its just me.  Anyway, not enough to get me to pop for that kind of jack.

An option which might be the best of both worlds would be to do some kind of waveguide on the Silver Flute like Steve does.  That would make the mids a little more aggressive, but not Tang Band aggressive.  I really like that driver and it sounds like the DNA 2's are Steve's go to speaker testing the 25th anniversary Zen.

I have some mad money so I am also thinking about picking up the Eminence 8" and giving it a try.  I like the family sound of those eminence drivers.  I just have to figure out where to cross it.  I think 5K is the top of its range.

I finished off the painting on my 15" sub cabinets over the weekend.  I also built on for the home theater.  Lots of work, but they both look pretty good.  I couldn't be happier with the bass I am getting now in the PAP.  Clear, full and musical.  Just a little support under 50Hz is all the Augies need.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by beowulf on 01/30/18 at 05:14:34

This guy on Audio Circle replaced his Leonidas and made a set of custom crossovers for his Pure Audio Project Voxativ AC-1.6.

Here is the parts list:

  • 4 pcs of Jupiter 15uF HT Flat Stack and 1 pc Jupiter 8uF HT Flat Stack to = 68uF.

  • 1 pc Jantzen 6.8mH wax coil.

  • 1 pc Jantzen .20mH wax coil. (Optional: 1 pc .25mH Jantzen wax coil and 1 pc .27mH Jantzen was coil. You can use any value    from .27mH to .18mH to suite your taste. Also, rather then buying all those coils you can use a .27mH and gradually unwind it one meter at a time until you get it perfect for you. The higher the value of this coil, the more you will roll off the high end.)

  • 1 pc Duelund 10R Cast resistor.

  • 1 pc Duelund 8R2 Cast resistor. (You can vary this resistor to balance the full range driver output to the woofers output.  Increasing it will lower output, deceasing it will raise the output.)

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 01/30/18 at 21:16:06

I thought I saw a formula out there.  

You could always substitute other brands to bring the price down, but that's a $$$$ dollar crossover.  I priced one of the coils at $487.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by beowulf on 01/30/18 at 21:57:37

Yeah, for sure he must have been taking notes from Jeff Day's outboard crossovers for his Tannoys.  I never tried pricing them out before, but he must have put 2 grand + into them.

I also found this on a quick search: http://www.modelpromo.nl/audio-dandy/reviews/Leon/Leon%20Huijgen%20Leonidas%20Variation%201.pdf

It was actually written by Leon (the creator) and goes into how he cam about his values, etc.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 01/30/18 at 22:04:07

Interesting read, but shows me how little I know.  His freq response is not that unlike what I get in my room.  Gives me a little comfort seeing things tail off in his schematic over 10K.  I see the same thing with the Tang Bands.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 03/25/18 at 14:51:17

The project continues to evolve.  I love the rich sound of the Tang Bands, but they can be fatiguing in the upper mids on some music.

Two things in the works:  replacing the Tang Band with the Eminence Alpha 8A and crossing the AMT at a much lower frequency.

I talked to Parts Express and they suggested that I cross both the Tang Band and/or Eminence at around 1500Hz.  That seemed pretty low, but I tried crossing the Tang Band at 1600 this weekend and it seemed to take care of some issues I was having in the 3-4K region and produced smoother sound overall.  I have read the AMT can go all the way down to 1200hz without breakup.

I have a couple songs that can split your head open and the new cross-over point passed the test.  Crossing at this point requires just a cap and a coil so I am not introducing a complex cross-over into the system.

I have yet to receive the 8As but should get them later in the week.

I have made some changes to Rachael as well.  More on this topic later but the amp already had flat stacked Jupiter caps and  Cardas copper binding posts when I got it.  I recently added Silver plated, copper RCA jacks, a Furutech Rhodium IEC and bypass caps on the electrolytic capacitors  (Thanks Will).  I upgraded the fuse a while back to a hifi tuning fuse (silver, I think).

I believe each of these adds offered improvements in detail.

I also found a pair of Westinghouse 807 tubes on eBay and they are much more "dimensional" than my other pairs.  Better 3D imaging and more engaging.

While it may seem that all I do is tweak, I have been able to do a lot of listening over the last several months.  Really enjoying my system.


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 04/12/18 at 15:29:53

I received the 8as and used my adapter ring to put them in my OBs.  Crossover is at 1600 with the AMTs.  Aggies are crossed at 250Hz using the Crown amps.  Sub is crossed at 40Hz on the plate amp.  

I have the bass up a little too high, but I have been digging how solid crisp and musical the bass is so I am running it hot.

My overall impression is pretty positive and it smoothed out some of the issues in the 3-4K range.  I sacrifice a bit of resolution versus the Tang Bands, but I think its a good tradeoff.  The speakers may be considered a little warm in this configuration but zero listening fatigue that I sometimes got with the Tang Band.

Here's how it measures using a Dayton Audio USB measurement mic positioned where my headbs listening position and REW.  Any comments are appreciated.


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 04/12/18 at 15:47:04

For my cottage system, I have been running Betsys with a thrift store 15" woofer and a plate amp.  I don't have much room at the cottage so I was looking to ditch the plate amp.  

I have always liked the bass sound of the Emminence 15as so I consulted Randy at Caintuck Audio http://www.caintuckaudio.com

Randy was kind  enough to share indicator values for various cross-over points.  Armed with this information, I burned through an Amazon gift card and picked up some 15as and a couple inductors for crossing at 125Hz.

The bolt pattern n the Alphas was exactly the same as the thrift store 15s so no fiddling there.  Changeover and adding the inductors took less than 20 minutes.

Overall, a significant upgrade in the bass department and I didn't feel the need for a plate amp at all.  15as produce a very nice musical bass, but I was also impressed with how punchy they were.

Randy offers speakers with some 10" and 12" alphas which he feels are faster.  From what I remember, from Decfest they sound quite nice.

Yes, the Augies in my main baffles offer more grunt, but you have to power them with SS amplification.  These 15as produce a very nice bass experience for about a third of the cost and no additional plate amp expense either.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 04/12/18 at 17:19:03

Palo,
To make it work you gotta run 4 15" Alphas!

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 04/12/18 at 17:29:23

I'd love to make a quad Alpha pair Donnie.

Just no footprint for that.  Already catching hell for as large as they are with just a single alpha per side ;)

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 04/12/18 at 23:41:53

I wonder how a pair per side with a 10” in front and a 15” in back would sound?
I’ve also wondered how it would sound with the back 15 firing upward.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by beowulf on 04/12/18 at 23:44:43

What about building a rack/stand such as the one used by Pure Audio Project's Quintet series?  You could fit 4 subwoofers on that stand it would only take the space of one set of sub drivers.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Dave1210 on 04/12/18 at 23:53:09


Quote:
Here's how it measures using a Dayton Audio USB measurement mic positioned where my headbs listening position and REW.  Any comments are appreciated.


Pal...at first glance, your system/room is measuring amazingly flat...

That said, can you change the y-axis scale to look more closely at the 50-100dB range?

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 04/13/18 at 01:35:47

Dave, I can zoom in and take it to 1/48th so you can see detail.  Maybe later tonight.

I have a fair amount of flexibility with the crowns on the Augies and the plate amp on the sub.   I just had to smooth out that 1-4K region and the Emminence 8a has done that.

I think the diffusers on all 4 walls really help smooth out the high end.

I'll post a comparison of this and my Betsy OBs as well.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 04/13/18 at 02:48:01

Dave, here are the low frequencies at 1/48 octave smoothing


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 04/13/18 at 12:43:06

And here are the higher frequencies at 1/48 octave smoothing.





Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 04/13/18 at 12:49:33

And here is more of a closeup on 0-50:


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 04/13/18 at 12:52:30

And 50-100:


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 04/13/18 at 17:34:04


Dave asked what I was going to ask. You're scale looks off, but man, even zoomed in that's looking amazingly flat for listening position.

Almost like you know what you're doing, huh?

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 04/13/18 at 17:42:10

shhhhh.  Keep the illusion alive.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 04/13/18 at 18:02:24

The current configuration.  Next iteration would bring the AMT into the main baffle.  Those little baffles tacked on to the top tend to vibrate which can't be good for the sound.

I will probably make the whole baffle thinner to improve imaging.  Like 18".


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 07/25/18 at 18:44:12

must.  keep. thread.  alive.

Summer has been busy but I have managed to work on my system.   I have gone back to the Tang Bands crossed at 1600 and stayed there all summer.  They just have more detail and a richer sound.   I continue to look for other substitutes.  I can't recall the name, but there is a guy up in Green Bay that makes an 8" driver that might work.  A bit pricey though.

My next move will probably be to upgrade the capacitor.  Its 25uf so I went the cheap route with a Dayton audio cap.  I have found some other options, but they are a little pricy for that big a cap.

The only other thing I did was add padding to the tweeter baffle to eliminate some buzz I would get on certain songs with just the right base notes.  Drove me crazy.  I really do need to build some new baffles but will wait till my mid-range quest is officially over.

I may have mentioned this in another thread but I have fiddled with Rachael and installed a new furutech IEC and done some bypass caps under the tutelage of Will.  Finally, I have gone to 6N5Ps for input tubes which I find really nice.  My overall sound just keeps getting better.

So much so that I have put plans for a 25th on the back burner for now.  Owning a Zen is still on the bucket list, but given I have a very pleasant listening experience right now, it feels a bit selfish to spend the kids inheritance on one.  I'd also like to hear one before buying it and that will likely be at the next fest because I can't get down there on a week day.

Having spent some time at the cottage this summer, I really have a new appreciation for my room/room treatments at home. I get good imaging at the cottage and appreciate the size of the room, but its just not as immersive. I am going to enjoy my dedicated room while I can because I don't see myself having one when we downsize.

Another thing I have gained more appreciation for is the Eminence 15As I now have in the cottage OBs.  I just love the tone.  At the end of the season, I plan to bring them back and put into my baffles with the Tang Bands/AMTs to see how that sounds.

Randy has me interested in working with the smaller Eminence drivers, maybe doubling up on them in a baffle that is not as wide as I have at the cottage.  A smaller footprint will make everyone happy but I am mostly interested in the speed.

So that's it.  Palomino over and out.  Enjoy your summer.


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lon on 07/25/18 at 18:49:24

Some nice improvements Pal. I know the 6N5Ps you are enjoying and agree they are quite enjoyable.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 07/25/18 at 18:53:04

I may have mentioned I bought two more pair to have in reserve.  Excellent tubes for the price.  More detail and air than much more expensive Mullards and 6n23Ps.  I think more musical overall as well.

Do they have more of a recessed sound stage on your system?  They do on mine.  I have seen that with power tubes before but not input tubes.

It's not a bad thing per se, just different.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 07/30/18 at 21:53:40


Downsizing the house! Ugh!  I'll miss your listening room, it's one of the best I've heard since Steve's room in his house some 20 years ago!

I'm really excited to hear you've made some progress with the Rachel. I really do love the sound of that amp! I keep going back to calling it Silky. If you could add speed and keep the Silky, that would be damn sexy!

Listening session at your place soon?

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 07/30/18 at 22:29:30

I am hoping we can do the DAC-off before the Fest.  August is busy so let's look to a September session.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 07/30/18 at 22:57:15

A DAC-off? Kind of funny, I just unwrapped a new DAC this afternoon.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 07/31/18 at 01:35:40

Not entirely surprised you took the bait there Donnie. You are welcome to join us.  It will be Teac vs multibit schitt vs PSAudio.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 08/06/18 at 17:32:39


Yeah, come on up, Donnie! Show off your hardware! (er, realized who I was saying this too) Show off your DAC!

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 08/09/18 at 19:49:48

What did you buy Donnie?

Also Lon, these 6n5P tubes really seem to be sweetening up with some more hours on them.  Great transparency & engagement factor.  Thanks for suggesting them.

Raven, pick some up if you haven't already.  Don't even think about it.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lon on 08/09/18 at 19:53:32

You're welcome. The tested and selected from Steve sound as good, another alternative . . . . I've moved to Amperex Holland 6DJ8 in the ZTPRE now .  .  . just a different texture, I'll switch back to the 6N5P in the future.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 08/10/18 at 18:16:34

Lon, I put my favorite 1974 Reflektor Single Wire Getter, Silver Shield, 6N23Ps back in and feel they are more open, but the price differential between them and the 6N5ps is over $150.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 08/11/18 at 15:00:54

Palo,
I bought a Grace Design M900 DAC/pre/headphone amp. Just a inexpensive little DAC. It sounds pretty OK so far.
I'm upsampling everything into DSD X2 right now with pretty good luck.
I also discovered that the latest version of JRiver was holding me back by 10 Db because of a setting that I hadn't noticed. I was blaming the DAC, thinking that the output voltage wasn't the 6 volts as advertised. Well I now have the weight and volume that I craved. You have to pay attention to your software settings!
Anyway, things are working out fine down here in the middle of the cornfields.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 08/11/18 at 15:06:39

Sound like you are pretty set Donnie.

We'll let you know if we get a DAC comparo meeting set up in case you want to come up and see us city fellas.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by jdaun on 10/23/18 at 21:08:06

Greetings Palomino -

First off, thanks for posting so much detail in this thread!

I own a pair of Hawthorne Augie bass drivers, and I'm interested in a project like this.

I spent the entire morning reading, and joined the forum to ask a couple questions (I tried to send a PM but it seems I need a minimum count of 5 posts before I can do that - hence I'm posting here.)

If I understand correctly, you're still using the Tangbang 1808 along with the Dayton AMT, with just a capacitor on the AMT and an inductor on the Tangbang, is that correct?

If so, can you please share the values for the cap and coil that you're using?  It seems the cap may be 25uf?  I saw no info for the coil value.

Thanks in advance!  :)

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 10/23/18 at 21:22:49

Pretty sure it was .8mH.  Cap is 25uf.  That crosses the AMT at 1600 with a 6 db slope.  The AMT is 4 ohm, the Tang Band is 8 ohm.  Put that in this calculator along with 1600 hz and you'll get the values.

https://www.v-cap.com/speaker-crossover-calculator.php#firstOrderCalculator

Nothing between the Tang Band and the Augie, but Augie is limited to 250Hz via the digital high limit in the Crown Amp.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by jdaun on 10/25/18 at 18:29:33

Thanks Palomino!

I need to gather materials and cut new baffles, so this project will take a little time to implement.

All the info you provided in this thread gives me the confidence to take the plunge on the 1808/AMT combo.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by maddog07 on 10/26/18 at 01:44:13

jdaun,

I own four 15" Hawthorne Augie's.  I've paired them with several different speakers, including multiple variations on crossover-less, full-rangers.  I love the Augie's.  I've even used them with Martin Logan electrostats and they never fail to impress.
Currently playing Wild Burro Betsy's - running full range, low-pass two of the Augie's(stereo subs) at 85-ish.  Sound is mighty fine.  Next project is Betsy W.O.W. drivers paired with an AMT - courtesy of RandyinCaintuck design.  The W.O.W. running wide open, 1 cap on the AMT crossed over pretty high - running the AMT open back in (di-pole) mode same as the Betsy W.O.W.  Augie's providing the foundation of course!

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by jdaun on 10/26/18 at 18:44:14

Unfortunately looks like the Betsy WOW driver is no longer available.  But thanks for describing your set up maddog!  I'm really intrigued by the "full-range driver along with an AMT" concept.

My current setup is Hawthorne Sterling Silver duets ... Augie on the bottom, Hawthorne Sterling Silver Iris coaxial on top.  The coaxial is an Eminence 15" driver with a Radian compression driver tweeter.  They make pretty much any recording sound good, but I'd characterize them as relaxed and lacking low-level detail.  Not sure if the lack-of-detail is due to the 15" driver, or the crossover, or both.

My goal is more low level detail, more energetic sound, without being overly clinical (I realize this is very subjective  :) )

Looks like Palomino experimented with the Eminence Alpha 8a as an alternative to the Tangbang.  I wonder if I should consider the 8a.  My Hawthornes use an Eminence 15" driver so I'm concerned that the 8a might not be an improvement.  Still leaning heavily toward the Tangbang for this reason.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 10/26/18 at 20:25:25

I have tried the Silver Flute 8" (used in the DNA2/947 monoliths) and the 8a along with the Tang Bands.  The Tang bands win pretty easily.  All three combos sound good, but the Tang band is more detailed and richer.  You just need to cross it low enough to avoid some of the nastiness around 3300 to 3500hz.

I heard the WOW at the fest two years ago with the AMT and that's what got me to try the AMT.  Very smooth and fine.  Perhaps a bit rolled off on the high end but I don't hear that high anyway.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by maddog07 on 10/29/18 at 18:37:01

jdaun,

I too have a pair of the 15" Hawthorne coaxials and their associated passive xover.  I have the the SI version not the Sterling SI that you have.  And.... when the SI drivers were installed in my Trio's, it sounded as if someone had thrown a blanket over my speakers compared to any full-ranger that I've experimented with.  To say that "life", dynamics and micro detail were MIA with the Hawthorne SI coaxials, is a huge understatement.

Don't assume the Betsy W.O.W. drivers are not available.  Check with Randy in Caintuck.. http://www.caintuckaudio.com/.  He has all the inside scoop on Wild Burro Audio.  I have a pair of the regular Betsy drivers with whizzers too.  For the $$, I would suggest you give them a try.  They are very musical transducers, and will not ever get "in your face" IME.  Most folks likely dismiss the Betsy's because they are so inexpensive.  I guarantee you they punch way above their price point - way above it.  And they possess nearly none of the Lowther shout.  With a Torii 3, and it's treble shunt control, you can control this completely.  However, I run the Torii's treble shunt wide-open (no attenuation) with the Betsy's and also use more "vivid" sounding tubes.  The Betsy's are a bit forgiving (a good thing most of the time).  For $110 - you've not got much to lose.  The Betsy's need some break-in, they will be a bit flat, dull and lifeless sounding out of the box, but they bloom extraordinarily well over about the first 50 hours.

I have also used Audio Nirvana SCF drivers (www.commonsenseaudio.com) with good results.  Fifteen inch ferrite magnet versions and 12 inch Alnico magnet versions.  The ferrite need quite a bit of taming when used in a box, but with the Torii, they are very good in an open baffle.  The Alnico drivers worked great in a big ported box and are notably smoother and softer sounding than the ferrites when used in an OB or a box.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by jdaun on 10/31/18 at 06:06:49

Thanks everyone for the input.  I just placed an order for the Tangbang 1808, and the Dayton AMTPRO-4.  

Plan is to start with the Tangbang full-range, without the AMT (but with the Augies of course).  Once the Tangbang are broken in, and I have a feel for the Tangbang sound, I'll add in the AMT.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by jdaun on 11/12/18 at 06:57:24

I see that ESS has all 3 sizes of the Heil AMT on sale right now for $140 each ...normally $350 each.  http://esslabsusa.com/heil-amt/

This intrigues me because the smallest size, the "Heil AMT Air-Motion Transformer III" has a much shorter form factor than the Dayton AMTPRO4 (the Heil measures a bit over 3" high x 6" wide), so I could create an adapter plate and fit both the Heil and aTangband 1808 below it, into the 15" cutout in my existing baffles where my Hawthorne coaxials currently reside.

Specs on the Heil website say:

Impedance: 4 ohms, Re: 2.9 ohms
Power: 40 watts RMS, 160 watts max
Response: 1000 Hz – 30 kHz
Sensitivity: 96 dB, 1 watt, 1 meter

Trouble is, I can't find a frequency response graph for the Heil AMT 3 anywhere, so I have no idea how, or if, it could reasonably be crossed over to the Tangband.  

It's 96db efficiency compared to the ~93db of the Tangband implies that an Lpad would probably be required, but beyond that I have no idea.

Nor can I find an impedance chart, the Dayton AMTPRO4 has a flat impedance across the entire frequency spectum, not sure about the Heil.

Anyway, wanted to share in case any of you have curiosity about Heil's AMT offerings.  I sent an email to ESS asking them to supply those graphs, I'll post back if they send them.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 11/12/18 at 14:06:54

Check the weight on the III.  10.5 pounds.  That’s a big driver, even in the smaller form factor.   It must be close to as deep as the original.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 11/12/18 at 21:22:20


Wow, that looks like a great price on the AMT! I don't remember those being available when I researched them a couple years ago. I had a pair of speakers that had original 80s vintage AMT on them, and they sounded pretty amazing.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 11/14/18 at 19:18:06

This weekend I went up to the cottage to close it down.  Very few people up there so its quiet and I get big 2AM bloom all day.  Anyway, got to listen to my other set of OBs - Betsys and 15As.

For these, I don't run any additional amplification. I used a coil on the 15As per Randy's suggestion http://www.caintuckaudio.com/.

I was driving them with my Torii III. I don't consider this amp as fast as my modified Rachael, but it sounded very fast with these speakers in comparison.

Also, I finally figured out how to get a good soundstage in the cottage.  I just needed to pull them out a few more feet from the wall.  It made a huge difference.

So I decided to bring them home.  So far, I have slapped the 15As into my baffles and running them on the same coil.  Nice speed pickup and the tone is sweeter than the Augies.  The bass is not as powerful, but it ain't bad given no additional amplification.

It makes me think that for low watt amps, the 15A is a good choice.  Could mate well with the 25th Annv Zen given the speed of that amp.


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 11/14/18 at 22:51:54


That looks like an amazing setup for "away from home" listening!

I installed the latest DirectStream OS, so we should have another meet soon!

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 11/14/18 at 23:08:16

I put in a cell phone signal booster so I can stream Tidal now via the laptop tethered to my phone or directly from my phone using a digital dock.

Once BW gets his 25th Ann Zen.   I was hoping for December.  I am off from the 19th on.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 11/15/18 at 01:36:34

I'm off all next week too BTW.


I'm surprised you're not streaming from my NAS over cell booster, ya bastard! LOL

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 11/15/18 at 20:59:24

Hmmmm.  How's your garage looking these days?

I am thinking about building some new OB baffles that are not as wide.  

One of the things I really liked about the El Caminos was it felt more open and I felt less sound was being blocked from behind the speakers.

I haven't figured out the design yet, but the bottom for the bass drivers would remain 22" but then I would drop to 12" for the Tang Band and only 6" or less for the AMT.  If only I had a precision table saw...

I also ordered some new 25uf capacitors from Madisound to try.  Right now I just have some Parts Express cheapos.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 11/18/18 at 18:54:07


Tablesaw is cleared off. I need to polish and wax the top, but beyond that we're set.

I'm off all week if you want to work on them. I'm going to be working in the garage/shop starting tonight. I'm building a new bench for the chopsaw and storage, and trying to fit the FJ in the garage.

Beyond that, I'm open for cutting some pieces for you.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Showme on 11/18/18 at 20:59:47

I'd garage that FJ too!

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 11/18/18 at 21:22:23

Ok thanks Raven.  I forgot my brother is coming starting tomorrow.  He may go out on his own so I’d have some time.   I am going to do some designing tomorrow.

I got a couple new Clarity cap CSA 25uf capacitors which I think have helped the sound of my speakers.  Clearer, richer and more air.   The one I had before were cheap parts express caps.   These are mid priced but supposed to punch above their weight.  So far so good.

Since I am not using the crown amps for the Auggies right now I am trying to figure out how to combine right and left input from the Rachael and run in bridge mode out to the sub.  Either that or combine left and right out of the crown to the single input of the sub.   Plate amp did that before.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 11/22/18 at 03:34:23


Getting the garage ready. Started building new quick and dirty benches to make room in the garage. I'll have the tablesaw free for you this weekend.


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 11/26/18 at 16:53:35

Raven and I were busy on Black Friday.  He helped me build a new pair of experimental baffles.  

We also had a quick listening session to hear his modded ZMA.  It really sounded outstanding and perhaps the best I have heard his system/room sound (without room treatments BTW – he is remodeling).  Big open sound.  Room filling.  Some impressive bass too but that may have been the Direct Stream update.

Anyway, I had three things I was trying to accomplish with the new baffles:

1.  Bring the AMT down closer to ear level (it was kind of tacked on the top of my old baffles).  Randy had advised me that these drivers don’t have the best vertical dispersion.

2.  Open up the soundstage.  I felt that the large baffles were blocking information from getting back to me at the listening position.   Also, this blocking was keeping some instruments on certain songs glued to the speaker and ruining the illusion.

3. Make some baffles out of Baltic birch.  I have heard a couple of pairs of speakers made from baltic and they sounded faster to me.  I like the tone of the ply versus MDF.

The whole idea of the stepped baffle shape is to have as little baffle as possible for each driver in order to allows as much sound to come around the baffles.  This shape is probably not everyone's cup of tea, but the proof is in how they sound.

I took the wood to Raven’s place for precision cutting.  As usual, his big saw cut through it like butta.  We did have to do some work with the cross-cutting against the grain using a band saw and even a jig saw.  

We probably wouldn’t have needed to use the latter two saws if we’d cut against the grain first.  Raven saw how it could be dangerous to cut against the grain after we had already done the with the grain.  Nobody wants a chunk of wood in the face.  Anyway, it was no big deal as Raven has a steady hand and I had to do very little sanding afterwards to true everything up.

I cut the driver holes back at home and glued it up and attached the stand hardware.  

I listened last night and was pretty impressed.  A little more detail coming through via better on axis with the AMT but the big gain was on the openness of the soundstage.  A lot was being blocked by the big baffles.  The Baltic seems a little more lively as well.  Some help with the instruments glued to the speaker phenomenon.

Some pics:













Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by lazb on 11/26/18 at 18:11:28

Pal, I see what look like Skyline diffusers but what are the large black ones? What are they made of?

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 11/26/18 at 18:28:46

QRD7 (outside) and QRD13 (inside running vertical and top running horizontal).

The black ones running horizontal on top of the outside QRD7s are purchased painted foam fractals.

The QRD7 are made from the cheapest plywood I could find at Menards, poplar and slotboard (pre-routed board for the fins).

The QRD13 running horizontal is MDF with some kind of subflooring material for the fins.  It was a prototype that worked and I kept it.

The vertical QRD13s are made of Baltic birch and I am somewhat proud of the build.

I typically slap black paint on everything to hide my shoddy wood/glueing work.  They all work though.

I also have QRD23s on the sides (not shown) made from poplar, 1" insulation foam and subfloor material (it is pretty straight and works for fins).  These are my best diffusers.

The rear wall has 5 fractals hung on the wall and two more QRD (both experimental prototypes).

Raven got me going and I can't stop.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 11/26/18 at 18:30:41

Oh, and the skylines are on the floor because they are too much of a pain to hang.  Very heavy.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 11/26/18 at 21:10:01


It was a good quick listening session - and Pal, since I was having issues with the DirectStream volume, we were listening to the TEAC. So just imagine how that's going to sound once I get the DS sorted out!  

It was TEAC via XLR to 25th Modded ZMA with Mullard CV2492 input tubes, and the KT8C output tubes to the unfinished El Camino speakers.

It was some good sound!

Once Bad Wolf get's his 25th Anniversary Zen, we'll definitely have to have a CDApS meet!  See if we can get some other locals to join us maybe?






Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Randy in Caintuck on 11/26/18 at 22:03:13



Hey guys,

The new three tiered baffles turned out very nicely .....  
I expect that they sound quite good.

The two of you should consider "hanging out your shingle" and offering these to folks looking for a good sounding full range OB speaker.

Pure Audio Project could use a little competition .....

Best wishes,
Randy  


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 11/26/18 at 22:30:11

Ha!  As you know too well, lots of time goes into these.

Randy, I noticed you use ply or hardwood.  Do you think they sound "different than MDF?  To me, MDF does not sound as lively.

BTW Randy, I have a whole new appreciation for your work on the Betsy Baffles.  Cutting cross grain can produce some splintering!

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Showme on 11/26/18 at 23:05:22

I like the look of the new OB’s. Very nice look to my eyes.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 11/26/18 at 23:18:57

Thanks Show.  

I do intend to put a finish on them but that will probably wait until Christmas break.   I won't have time till then but also I don't know if I want to endure the downtime.  I spent about 4 hours last night listening to my playlists and everything sounded really good.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 11/26/18 at 23:26:09

Palo,
Have you ever tried Asymmetrical yet?
I seem to remember in the research I did for mine Martin King had his drivers offset in the X plane.
Mine are offset 1/3 the diameter of the 15's and then the radius from the center of the TB's is always different to the edge.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 11/26/18 at 23:31:40

Donnie,

After seeing your build I did my big blackies with tweeter and mid offset from the woofer.  I thought about doing that on this pair, but wanted to see how everything lined up sounded.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by lazb on 11/27/18 at 19:35:07

It looks like you guys will have the ability, equipment wise, at the next  CDApS to run a pair of the 25th Anniversary ZENS in series and see what the additional triode horsepower adds to the sound!?!?!?

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 11/27/18 at 19:38:12

We'll just have Bad Wolf's 25th at the official December CDApS meeting, assuming his is finished.  I'll have to check the build list but I think parts were being pulled or it was on bench last time I looked.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 11/27/18 at 19:41:36

Its in QC so chances are good.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Randy in Caintuck on 11/28/18 at 04:44:35




Quote:
Randy, I noticed you use ply or hardwood.  Do you think they sound "different than MDF?  To me, MDF does not sound as lively.


Hi Palomino,

I know that veneer covered MDF is a mainstay of the "box" speaker industry, but I have never made a pair of Betsy baffles from that material.  I know that it's heavy .....  

Of all the baffles I have made, I hear a slight difference between Baltic birch and all of the other plywoods used.  As you know, the construction of BB is unique.  It sounds a little more detailed and "tighter" to me than the other plywoods ..... which sound a little "warmer" to my ears.

As to the hardwoods, most of them sound pretty much the same to me with the exception of Bubinga (African rosewood) and Purpleheart.
With a revealing front end and amplifier, these two hardwoods definitely have a more detailed and controlled sound than the other hardwoods I have used.

I'm presuming that it has something to do with the density and weight of these woods .....

It is apparent when picking up a baffle made from one of these hardwoods that they are "heavyweights" .....

Once again, your baffles turned out very nicely ..... well done !!!

Happy listening,
Randy


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 11/28/18 at 18:51:55



Quote:
The two of you should consider "hanging out your shingle" and offering these to folks looking for a good sounding full range OB speaker.


Ha! Not a chance!  We couldn't make hardwood toilet seats as well as you do! And we know how much work goes into them!

That said, once I get my shop put back together again, I think Tom will find we can make baffles much easier, faster, and with less splintering of the plywood. I felt bad we had to use a Jigsaw (even though it was a Bosch with a fine finish blade) to trim out the steps on his baffles. They were too big for the bandsaw, and my router table is down right now.  :P

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 12/01/18 at 18:15:22

Today's project was to flare the driver hole in back for the Tang Band.  I am telling myself it did some good.


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 12/01/18 at 18:46:24

Looking real good!

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Archie on 12/01/18 at 19:00:12

Are you going to do any wind tunnel testing?   ;)

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 12/02/18 at 15:03:50

Wind tunnel test complete ;D. Highs sounded a little shrill last night.  I hope it was me or a phase the capacitors were going through.   Will listen again now.  Kids sleepover so nothing before 9:00 am.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 12/03/18 at 22:41:32

Any word from AA about his 25th yet?

That looks really nice and smooth! How much of that was router, and how much was sanding, sanding, sanding?  LOL

I've almost got the FJ out of the garage, so I hope to be back to woodworking this next weekend! YEY!


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 12/03/18 at 22:58:50

It will probably ship on Thursday.   I suppose we should give him a day or two before we descend upon him like eagles diving on prey.  Let’s start talking dates.

Very little sanding thus far.   I just hit the horizontal levels where they didn’t match up once glued.  Less than a 2 minutes on each.  They were surprisingly close.  Sides and top lined up nearly exactly and with 14 clamps it didn’t slide on me at all.

All speakers need a name and I am calling these the “metropolitans.”

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Showme on 12/04/18 at 14:53:14

I would like to hear those speakers! What's with the FJ---did you add a snorkel?

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 12/04/18 at 15:19:05

I think they are sounding pretty sweet and continue to play with placement.  I always like to get a CDApS opinion before declaring victory and should have one later this month.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Jeff of Arabica on 12/04/18 at 15:32:56


Quote:
I would like to hear those speakers! What's with the FJ---did you add a snorkel?


Looks like a new set of coil over shocks/struts.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 12/04/18 at 17:26:07

The main problem with that FJ is that it isn't a Jeep!

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 12/04/18 at 17:32:36

Donnie = troublemaker

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 12/04/18 at 23:16:13

I like to think of myself as more of an Freelance Instigator. You want trouble, just call me!
I almost bought a FJ Cruiser on two occasions but I made the mistake of driving a Wrangler and it was all over, then I got older and smarter and starting buying Grand Cherokees.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Jeff of Arabica on 12/05/18 at 02:02:20


Quote:
The main problem with that FJ is that it isn't a Jeep!


Or a Bronco!

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 12/08/18 at 07:13:40

I guess my post got deleted?

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Jeff of Arabica on 12/08/18 at 07:44:22

All posts, site-wide, after Dec. 5th are gone!  Apparently some technical issues with the server/hosting.  

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 12/08/18 at 12:13:07

Yeah, I wrote a scathing post last night that had to be purged. It caused the entire system to crash.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by ScottNC on 12/08/18 at 12:41:17

ZEN thing...no doubt
Note:
“This is only a Test”

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lon on 12/08/18 at 19:05:04

Wonder what happened!

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Randy in Caintuck on 12/11/18 at 15:32:07



I have been following this thread and enjoying the "journey" as the project has progressed  .....

Before creating my "business' website, I had a personal "hobby" website that shared some of my interests, audio projects and favorite music.
I haven't had much time to mess with that website lately, but was looking at it for a few minutes a couple of days ago.

Included on that site was a project that reminded me of this thread.
It was a "three way" open baffle project that sounded pretty good, but was a bit unusual looking.
It seemed reasonable to share it with readers of this thread .....



Larger photo found here.

The website page is here.

Obviously, offering this speaker commercially would have been a pain and I ended up with a much simpler product for the music loving public ..... but it certainly was "interesting" .....

Happy listening,
Randy


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 12/11/18 at 16:00:27

Thanks for sharing.  Love the name.

As you know Randy, you are my OB-won.  

The only thing I have come up with on my own concerning this latest design is the midrange (kind of a mis-applied full range driver) and the baffle shape.  Everything else is a product of your experimentation over the years.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 12/11/18 at 16:11:10


Quote:
As you know Randy, you are my OB-won.


Oh no...no no...you didn't just...(sigh)


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 12/11/18 at 16:18:50

I knew you'd take the bait on that one ;)

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Randy in Caintuck on 12/11/18 at 22:06:16




Quote:
Oh no...no no...you didn't just...(sigh)


                                 

 

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 12/11/18 at 22:14:13

How could I resist with "Darth Baffles"

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Randy in Caintuck on 12/11/18 at 22:30:37




Quote:
How could I resist with "Darth Baffles"


Yep ..... I kind of liked that name.

Unfortunately, one of my audio buddies insisted on referring to them as the "Banjo Baffles" .....

Everyone's a comedian .....  


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 12/11/18 at 23:24:20

Bad puns aside. Thanks for your help.

Those Heils are still on sale.  Tempting....

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 12/12/18 at 14:39:23


Quote:
Those Heils are still on sale.  Tempting....


I'm trying not to notice as well...I'm just too damn broke and too many projects going on.

Please stop with the puns, or I'll repost all my FJ photos and Anti-Jeep propaganda in your thread.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 12/12/18 at 14:58:28

Deal, although  I do have an interest in your FJ adventures every this I watched that FJ history video on YouTube.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by jdaun on 12/17/18 at 19:57:18

Finally made some sawdust this weekend.  Pulled the 15" Hawthorne drivers out of their baffles, and cut some adapter plates for the Tangbang 1808's ...

Right now I'm using my digital preamp to EQ the 1808s ... cut the treble by 3db and boost bass by 9db.  About 24 hours on them so far.  I'm absolutely STUNNED by the amount of detail I was missing out on with the Hawthornes.  And gobsmacked by how good these 1808's sound with EQ.

I have a pair of the AMTPRO4 tweeters waiting in the wings, I already cut small plates for them as well.  Waiting on crossover components to arrive in a few days.

In the meantime, WOW, I'm enjoying the music.  Thanks everyone for all the info provided in this thread!   :) :) :)

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 12/17/18 at 20:03:44

Nice job on the adapters.  

I have those for the midrange drivers when I swap them out.  But as I said before, the 1808s is where I landed.  I'll continue to look, but I get great detail/richness with the AMT/Tang Band combo.


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 12/19/18 at 04:07:45


Your speaker, from the meet this weekend.


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Showme on 12/23/18 at 19:26:13

JDaun, outstanding job on those adapters. Speakers look great.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 01/09/19 at 18:32:46

The project continues....

I have mentioned before my addition of a sub run off a plate amp to fill in below 50hz.  By moving away from the Augies (for now) and going to the basic coil/15As woofer setup (to gain speed), it freed up my crown amps.

So I switched the sub plate amp to the crown crossed at 50hz.  Then I brought in my other 15" sub from the home theater and hooked it up to the other crown.  Both are run in bridged mode.

The subs are built using Dayton audio reference drivers, so they are pretty tight and fairly musical.  I really only want them for below 40Hz, but 50hz is the lowest the crowns go.  On the low end, these do about 25hz so I get some chest vibes.

I'd love to have those huge imperials or whatever Steve has in his room (amazing), but these provide some nice low frequency fill in and don't take up too much space.


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by ScottNC on 01/09/19 at 19:22:58

 What a great looking system (nice pic) and room, I bet it sounds amazing, those speakers with the addition of your subs has to pretty awesome. I’m working on a post right now looking for some discussion and advice, I hope you’ll chime in on it after I get it up, I’m sure you can offer some good thoughts and advice. I like the “Chest Thump” aspect you gotta be getting out of that setup, it has to be really satisfying building a lot of your own equipment that obviously ends up a success.

Best,
Scott

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 01/09/19 at 19:58:12

My whole setup is very much a product of all the advice I have received from forum members.  I've been at it for two years!

Happy to help where I can.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 01/09/19 at 21:10:28


More than two years if you count all my poking and prodding about diffusers.  :)


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 01/11/19 at 20:12:16

I went through my absorber phase then el presidente showed me the Tao of diffusion.  I remain an ardent student seeking a higher level of consciousness.


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 01/12/19 at 19:29:47

Namaste.

More diffuser designs in the works! Check the DIY section!



Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 01/21/19 at 18:50:46

I finally got around to finishing the latest baffles.  Running my diy monoliths.  Sound really good.  Some things I like better that the OBs.


Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 01/25/19 at 17:52:26

Lots to like about these speakers.  The driver combo is a good one and mine does not have the waveguide on the woofer which I think helps the mids.  I can hear things in the upper mids to low highs that I really like.  More real than the OBs.

Also, these speakers actually do a better job of making the walls disappear than the OBs.  I am having trouble believing this so I will double check once the OBs return to the system.

Where the OBs clearly do better is on the low end between 50-250Hz.  I adjusted the crossover point to let the subs go higher (around 100hz xover).  While it helps, I think there is no replacement for the OBs 15" woofers displacement in moving air.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 01/25/19 at 18:45:42


Maybe it's time we build you some Imperial SO?   :)

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 01/25/19 at 18:53:02

oooh oooh oooh.  Me like

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Lonely Raven on 01/25/19 at 20:08:08

I've got the tools, you just need to buy the plywood.

I've been trying to spend a couple hours here and there setting up the workshop better. So we'll be ready for just about anything.

Speaking of, I'm going to try and (finally) knock out that second 18" woofer box, and finish up the other sound diffuser I made that jig for. I also found some Baltic Birch "on sale" (which isn't really a sale IMHO) so I can finally build my boombox project.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 01/25/19 at 20:26:52

I had some back and forth with a PE tech.  He suggested another subwoofer driver.  I haven't completed my design but it is shaping up in my head.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Donnie on 01/25/19 at 21:11:25

Do you guys think that Imperials would be a step up from my garbage can sub?
If it ever gets above absolute zero around here, and the wind stops wafting out of the north at 65 mph, I need to get busy on multiple projects myself.

Title: Re: Palomino Audio Project
Post by Palomino on 01/25/19 at 21:27:42

Hard to tell Donnie.  Having owned that same can, I think it has excellent sonic properties, especially given your pillow stuff tactic.

Forums » Powered by YaBB 2.2.2!
YaBB © 2000-2008. All Rights Reserved.