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AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
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Message started by tgarden on 10/15/13 at 16:26:16

Title: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by tgarden on 10/15/13 at 16:26:16

For any and all who may be interested, I felt it would be a good idea to get a thread going about Torii Mk III/Mk IV conversions.

My Torii III has been at Decware since Labor Day.  The conversion was finished two weeks ago, and shipped last Friday.  The shipping delay was due to a BIG Decfest, with 150 attending.

I'll have the converted unit on Thursday. Price for the Mk III/Mk IV conversion was $700 plus shipping.

I'm going to start using the type of Tung Sol KT66's that Steve voiced it with, but also have a couple matched quads of NOS 60's Siemens EL34's. I'm hoping the EL34's will still sound good/ok in this new conversion.

 One thing I noticed, the construction of those vintage Siemens is noticeably better than the new production KT66's.  Looks aren't everything, though.

Mike in Seattle area

Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by Lon on 10/15/13 at 17:57:06

That's exciting Mike! Sorry for the delay but you'll have it in a few days and the fun will begin!

I know you'll keep us posted.

Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by stone_of_tone on 10/15/13 at 18:37:17

Cool Mike. I look forward to your impressions. I sold my Torii MkIII, 1.5 years ago. I had it for four months. I would be getting mine back right now too....as a IV if I kept it.

Anyway, I have a Mystery Amp coming mid January (approx.)....I ordered it last Monday on the 7th. I am also on track to order the MkIV next August.

Simply put: I want the Mystery Amp, Torii MkIV, along with the SE84CS and Super Zen CKC I already have for the versatility and different flavor's.      

Once again, look forward to your impressions.   -S

Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by tgarden on 10/16/13 at 00:26:32

Lon and Stone,  I'll certainly keep you posted with my impressions.

Stone,  You're getting both the Mystery and the Mark IV? (next August).
That'll be a lot of fun:)

Anyone else send their Mark III in yet, for the Mark IV conversion?

Mike

Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by tom collins on 10/16/13 at 18:58:17

my good listening friend just got a four a few weeks ago.  looking forward to hearing that one.  it would have to be a massive improvement to get me to send mine back.

Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by tgarden on 10/16/13 at 21:26:07

I will admit, that with the 2 way shipping costs, the price does add up.
Shipped my Mark III to Decware by FedEx, they sent it back by UPS.

Approx. $145 shipping costs on top of the $700, plus I triple-boxed mine for shipping out, so some cost for boxes and bubble pack.

I was going to send mine back to Decware anyway, to upgrade to Jupiter Beeswax cryoed aluminum foil caps.  The Jupiters by themselves, are a big upgrade in my ZP3 and ZSM's.  Higher resolution, more musical sounding, than even the Vcaps formerly in my ZSM's.

Mike in Seattle area

Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by RoyMercer on 10/23/13 at 15:24:49

I sent mine back. I received the tracking number yesterday. I should have my Torii III converted to IV by end of week. I will also post my thoughts after I get it back into my system for a while.

Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by tgarden on 10/24/13 at 04:39:43

I received my converted MK IV last Thursday afternoon, and have managed to put about 115 hours on it in six days (I'm dedicated to getting it burned in).

Before hooking it up, I pulled the amp off the chassis to take a look inside. Never having done this to my Mk III, I had nothing to compare to, but I was still able to figure out most of the conversion work.  It was very neatly done.

The cool thing is, instead of installing four Jupiter caps, Steve left my four existing "big" V Caps in the amp, and added two much smaller (physically and value wise) Jupiters.  The Jupiters are in the final stage, to give it that Jupiter sound.

It's nice Steve left the V Caps in. They were a $500 option originally, and while not up to the level of the Jupiters, they are no slouch in the sonics department when you get a lot of hours on them (mine have 1500-2000 hours).  

I would imagine the sound from having 4 V Caps and 2 Jupiters, differs slightly from having the "stock" 4 Jupiters in the Mk IV. I'll never know.

What I do know is that even with only 115 hours on the two Jupiters and the new? wiring and four new switches, I greatly prefer it to the Mk III it used to be.

The biggest thing is "music magnified" soundstage that Steve talked about.  Not sure how to describe this yet, I'll get back later when the amp has more hours on it.

Imaging is better than with the Mk III, the individual musicans have greater depth, more of a three dimensional quality.

Increased detail over what I had, in it's earlier Mk III, V Capped version.

I was surprised that the bass started coming in nicely, at 75 hours, no complaints there!

I installed my usual tube compliment (more about that later) with the addition of Tung Sol KT 66's.  However, I started out (I have no idea why) with CBS JAN OA3's.  I noticed there was a trace of hardness to the sound, which I got from time to time with the Mk III.  At 50 hours I switched to my usual RCA JAN OA3's, and the hardness went away. It is very sensitive to OA3 changes.

This is all with my Joseph Chow restored/modded Tandberg 3001a tuner, which is neutral in sound.  No added warmth with this upper end tuner!

I tried playing a few LPs, but am patiently waiting 'till I get some more hours on the MK IV conversion, before I get serious about delving into vinyl.  Once I do, I'll be lost in another world.  It's looking like that world will be a very nice place:)

Mike







Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by tgarden on 10/24/13 at 04:56:45

A brief note on the two treble adjusting switches.  Turn them all the way up, and the treble becomes very airy, quite light and spacious.

Turn it downwards, and the treble has more body, becomes more solid.  I'm leaving them in the dead center position for now.

It's sounding great!

Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by will on 10/24/13 at 04:56:57

Thanks Mike!

Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by Lon on 10/24/13 at 10:53:37

Thanks for your impressions Mike. Glad you feel it's a real improvement.

Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by tgarden on 10/24/13 at 15:28:09

Will and Lon, I'll be back with additional info/comments, soon.

Mike

Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by grillski2000 on 10/30/13 at 03:33:30

Hey,

I turned in my Torri 3 to get it turned into a Torri 4. Received it today and I noticed a difference right away. With my setup it seems that the sound is much more clearer, and 3 D with the KT66's. I flipped some switches in the back and somehow added some more life to the music. Cant wait for the tubes and Caps to break in more.  But right away overall seems to be more "Magical" than the way my Torri 3 sounded.  But then again I might be listening to the music too loud and crackin my eardrums causing weird vibrations in my head.  

-Dave

Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by tgarden on 10/30/13 at 05:17:19

Dave, I completely agree with the impressions you received "right off the bat".

Yeah,  those switches in the back, make quite a difference:)

I'm glad you like your converted amp.  I've got 200 hrs.+ on my MK IV conversion, with plenty of cooling off periods to help break those caps in.

Lately I've had almost no free time, but I'll post my next round of thoughts about the Torii 4, after we get past Halloween a few days from now.

Mike

Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by grillski2000 on 10/30/13 at 05:45:20

Hey T.G. I noticed though that my converted Torri 3 to 4 didn't come with the Two bass toggle switches by the volume control that's on the Torri 4. (The ones that use to be for switching a to b inputs and the other side was the bias switch) Now the one on the left is still the same and the one on the right, not sure what it does...cant tell the difference. Maybe this is the all in one bass switch. Not sure though.

Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by stone_of_tone on 10/30/13 at 07:01:06

IV is on the Web Page...........


http://www.decware.com/newsite/TORII.htm


Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by tgarden on 10/30/13 at 07:36:04

Hey Dave,  The one on the left is the A B input switch (as before).   The right switch is the new bass management switch. I believe that it's off in the front position, and on in the the rear position,

I keep mine off. That position sounds better with my ten year old Legacy Audio Signature III speakers.

Mike

Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by stone_of_tone on 10/30/13 at 17:40:34

http://www.legacyaudio.com/products/view/signature-se/

Mike, you have been happy with your Legacy Sig III's with the Torii = great.

I am considering the Signature SE for my Mystery Amp or at lesser cost...the new Decware ERRx or Tekton Pendragon.  Your thoughts? -S

Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by stone_of_tone on 10/30/13 at 18:12:17

In regards to my post above. I probably would not prefer the Pendragons....to honest....and only Audiophile recordings sound good on them. I did not like Zu Speakers.

I think I would enjoy Steve's new ERRx.

I am leaning towards a pair of Acoustic Zen Adagio Speakers. Proven winner, great with tubes & easy to move around too.   -S

However, the new Legacy Sig. SE's at 92db & the inclusion of the double AirMotion Tweeter's (I like extended Treble).....with great bass weight in those lower woof's...could be worth the bucks....I have a hand truck dolly I keep in the house to move around my big Polk's!...no worries  ;D.   Even though, at 106 pounds each...they are not as heavy as my 5.5 ft tall & 180 pounds each....Polk SDA SRS 1.2 Speakers.   -S

Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by tgarden on 10/30/13 at 18:20:34

Stone,  The new SE's are supposed to be an improvement over the original ones I have.   Better caps, and they have tightened the driver array. Two 10" woofers instead of the three in mine, and I believe there is one less midrange.  I think the tweeter may be slightly improved also.

They probably lost some of the drivers to trim production costs, but neverless, this new SE should be killer, with the new caps and slightly less complex crossovers.  I'm thinking about getting a pair of the new SE's in a few years, to replace the old ones (not sure it's really needed, though)  I have a local friend who has $12,000 Spendors, he still prefers my older Sig III/s to his Spendor speakers. They have amazing bass, balanced mids and treble.

Downsides?  They need a lot of break-in time to sound their best, and while they are flexible in terms of placement, you need to experiment to find the position, that creates the soundstage you like.

Another upside, is that in terms of appearance and finish, they FAR exceed the MG944's I own.

If you want to go for a lesser cost, I would seriously think about the Pendragons, but I would want to opt for the upgraded caps.  I believe the caps used in the upgrade are Mundorfs.

Anyway, that's a few of my thoughts.

Mike

Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by stone_of_tone on 10/30/13 at 18:32:02

Thanks Mike for your great info, after I have relentlessly broke in my new Mystery Amp with my two Front Ends....I am bringing in the Legacy Signature SE and the Acoustic Zen Adagio for comparison...and relentless painful break/burn-in.  

I have a saved email from Legacy...they will ship it direct to me....decide in 30 days....but the freight is on me if I return them.

Furthermore, I will not favor the Adagio because of lesser cost. I want these to compare Tweeter's for Treble extension & Aire.  I like bass...but the midrange and Treble Highs are the boss with Tubes, albeit single Tube per channel with Pentodes run in Triode with no Neg. feedback or push pull with no Neg. feedback.   -S

Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by tgarden on 10/30/13 at 18:38:17

Stone, I have my Legacy Audio Sig. III's, sitting on Sistrum Stands, on top of Herbie's "something or others", on top of 18" x 18" x 2" thick black maple blocks.

Easy to slide around for proper positioning (at least it is on carpeting).

I have been told that due to their overall size (48" tall) and somewhat complex crossovers, they should be hard to drive and not sound very good.

Well, sorry to disappoint some folks, but my 12 watt per channel original "integrated" blue Torii, drove them pretty well.  Obviously not an issue with the Torii II, III, and IV.

The sonics?  Everyone who has heard them in my system, wants them.

Mike

Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by stone_of_tone on 10/30/13 at 18:48:30

I know where you are coming form Mike.

To many people here think that Steve's Amps (all of them) can only drive 95db SPL Speakers at 1 watt/1 meter. Not only do I know your 12 watt can drive the Legacy....and of course all of the Torii Series can with aplomb.... . I drive a pair of Vintage Polk SDA 1 Speakers in my Listening Room (in Stereo/NOT USING the SDA function) with my SE84CS.....and have people comment the same, "I did not know Music can Sound that good/involving/goose bump/I don't want to leave the Room"!  

Of course, like Steve's Mono's, the new Mystery Amp can drive just about anything...and I'm glad he finally went after this Market...with his Gift for Amplifier Design.    -S

Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by Lin on 10/30/13 at 20:53:32

Looking forward to your impression of the Sig SEs Stone.

I had a pair of Focus HDs for a year and was never quite satisfied with the sound of the neo ribbons, but a year ago I visited Legacy and listened to the new Focus SEs with the AMT drivers and was very pleased with the sound.

My hot rodded 2005 Classics (formerly Bill's personal pair) won't reach concert levels with low watt amps, but sound great with a 12w Torii and a 15w McAlister. 8-)

Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by tgarden on 10/30/13 at 21:17:04

Lin,  Those Classics are great speakers!

Mike

Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by stone_of_tone on 10/31/13 at 05:49:17

Oh spot on Lin. I do not get concert levels with my SE84CS (or CKC)...either...I'm stating the obvious I guess.

The intimacy these two Amps do achieve with the two pair of Speakers I alternate in my acoustically treated Listening Room in the Nearfield with the Tone/Texture I like....is what Steve's Pentodes run in Triode are all about for me. My Kimber Select 1030 RCA IC & Kimber 3033 Speaker Cable, complete the Holographic Sympatico at 76db SPL to 84db SPL of Musicality...in this Room ....my Man Cave!

Now lets talk Concert Levels! Concert levels when desired, are found in my Living Room System with my Polk SDA SRS 1.2 Speakers.

I look forward to having the Mystery Amp (glorious push/pull-no neg feedback, that sounded as powerful as the Mono's as commented by Steve when he drove the Jan Zen Speakers with the MA) driven Directly from my Anedio D2 DAC with PreAmp (in the Living Room System), driving the 1.2's, Sig SE's, ERRx Radials & Acoustic Zen Adagio's.

I expect to get a little more (even subjectively/Steve has the Amp well dialed in to run the KT66's & KT120's conservatively/where they sound best) out of the KT120's...it will be fun!

I will follow up for sure.

....A pair of Hot Rodded Classics that were Bills, with the 12w Torii or McAlister...... = very nice.   -S

Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by tgarden on 11/03/13 at 19:07:57

OK, I've got 325 hours+ on my VCapped/Jupiter  MK IV conversion, with plenty of cooling off periods.

I'll spin some vinyl in the next few days, and give some detailed impressions.

It does sound much better at 300 hours than 200.  I'm on my second set of cryoed Tung Sol KT66's (a failure in the first set).  It has not taken many hours for the 66's to settle in.

To me, this conversion is well worth the $1000 I spent on it, with shipping, boxes, and a quad of KT66's.  The level of  musical involvement, is much greater than I was getting with the original MK III VCapped version.

Mike

Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by grillski2000 on 11/10/13 at 04:54:54

After owning and playing music through my Mark 3 to 4 upgrade I have to say that it does sound way better. My soundstage is deeper. Seems to be tighter on the bass side too. My Vocals come out clearer. I haven't had any issues with my tubes at all so far.

Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by tgarden on 11/10/13 at 05:05:54

grillski,  I agree with everything you just said.  

With 400+ hours on my  MKIV conversion, it's really sounding amazing! Just keeps getting better and better.  I have 200 hours on my second set of Tung Sol KT66's, and they've been just fine, no problems.

Mike in Seattle area

Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by stone_of_tone on 01/14/14 at 23:01:45

Bump

-S

Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by tgarden on 01/15/14 at 02:22:41

I'll update tomorrow.

Mike

Title: Re: Torii Mark III to Mark IV conversion thread
Post by grillski2000 on 01/26/14 at 06:27:00

Haven't been on here in a while. I think my Amp has broken in more. I  Still think my upgrade to the 4 was an improvement. To me the Music is more musical and enjoyable. Tighter Bass, Clearer sounding, more organic.

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